Pope Francis: I don’t bless a ‘homosexual marriage.’ I bless two people who love each other.

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – People who act shocked that a priest would bless a gay couple but have no problem with him blessing a crooked businessman are hypocrites, Pope Francis said.

“The most serious sins are those that are disguised with a more ‘angelic’ appearance. No one is scandalized if I give a blessing to an entrepreneur who perhaps exploits people, which is a very serious sin. Whereas they are scandalized if I give it to a homosexual – this is hypocrisy,” he told the Italian magazine Credere.

The interview was scheduled for publication Feb. 8, but Vatican News reported on some of its content the day before when the magazine issued a press release about the interview.

Alsephina,

Some weeks back he also put Marxism in a good light. He’s been unusually based lately.

Allero,

Based.

When even Pope, a person normally in charge of maintaining a rather conservative society, tells you so, you know it’s time to act

Agent641,

Based and pope-pilled

BigMacHole,

He’s WRONG and should be PUNISHED!

-Christofacists who want their Religious Leaders to write the Laws.

platypus_plumba,

Pretty hilarious that the pope, they guy sitting in a golden throne, is saying that the worst sins are made by people who pretend to be angelic.

Yeha man, look at how corrupt the Vatican is and what it pretends to be.

Shameless.

Zeroxxx,

Better him than good for nothing SJWs who are whining non stop

Snowpix,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

SJWs? 2016 wants its buzzword back.

Zeroxxx,

Woke people then. So 2024.

Seasoned_Greetings,

It’s better for a good man to take up a morally bereft throne than for him to yield the position on principle to an equally morally bereft man.

Pope Francis may not be perfect, but the facts are that he’s still making progress considered unheard of by Vatican standards and he still leads one of the world’s biggest religious sects that very sorely needs the progress.

platypus_plumba, (edited )

Oh, you sweet summer child. He’s just making sure his religion still has followers in the coming generations in which homosexuality will be totally normalized. This is marketing, it’s all planned. This is just the Vatican figuring out how to stay relevant and powerful for generations to come.

Isn’t it curious how this religion keeps adapting to the moral views of the majority? They know the homophobic generations are about to die, this is calculated.

Do you think the pope is allowed to say whatever he wants?

Seasoned_Greetings,

Oh, you sweet summer child

Fact is, Christianity is getting less bigoted. Does it matter if it’s a calculated move by the Vatican or one man using his authority to call out immorality?

Insult me all you like. The end result is the same

platypus_plumba, (edited )

I didn’t insult you at all. Yes, it does matter to me because this strategy means they’ll gain popularity with newer generations and will still push their other bigoted ideals until they no longer satisfy the majority.

The fact they are in power is harmful. It is a power structure that protects pedophiles and steals money from people. So yes, it is concerning for me that they are planning how to stay relevant and powerful.

It’s very painful to see how people think this pope is a good guy instead of what he actually is, the head of a corrupted organization.

It’s a facade, they just find the guy that will follow the role they need in order to stay powerful and keep the money coming in. He’s just following the role he’s meant to follow.

I have seen with my own eyes a priest stealing money from a person living in conditions of poverty. Made the person pay for groceries and then left in his truck. The person was so brainwashed that she got mad when my mother tried to talk sense into her.

Fuck that organization, specially the head of the organization.

Seasoned_Greetings, (edited )

Ok, so a heavily bigoted organization with their fingers in governments across the globe is better to you? The Vatican isn’t going away buddy.

What you’re saying is essentially that you’d rather a completely evil and corrupt organization influencing global politics than a reasonable but still immoral and slightly more popular organization doing the same.

Either way, this argument doesn’t matter. I don’t care for catholics either. It’s a whole other thing to actively sneer at the group for adopting more tolerant policies.

Have fun with that.

platypus_plumba,

They are already an evil and bigoted organization with fingers in governments across the globe, regardless of whatever this pope says. The pope is just a marketing tool.

Seasoned_Greetings,

That may be true. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s markedly less likely that some gay kids are going to be bullied. Or that some homosexual couples are going to be denied a marriage certificate.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless. I’m out

platypus_plumba,

Sure, and greenwashing marketing is helping the environment.

Bye.

Seasoned_Greetings,

Everything is made up and the rules don’t matter, my friend

nxdefiant, (edited )

Funny you say that, this pope famously refuses to use the papal throne.

youtu.be/DhuJFc2e37c

platypus_plumba,

Yeha, the throne is not a chair.

ohlaph,

It’s almost time you guys.

RawrGuthlaf,

I’m not a religious person, but I think some views in this thread are coming off a bit narcissistic and ignorant. Religion has been a large part of humanity for literally forever, and people can’t expect it to just go away completely. People turn to religion for comfort, often when they won’t receive it in other ways. There will always be someone in the world who needs religion, and we all need to coexist. The important thing here is he is attempting to drive his members to be empathetic and improve moral compass. Just be grateful for that at least. People expect too much.

kent_eh,

Religion has been a large part of humanity for literally forever, and people can’t expect it to just go away

Don’t crush my dreams like that.

themelm,

Well spirituality will never go away but we can still try to shape our society in such a way that keeps institutions like the church from gaining massive power.

dullbananas,
@dullbananas@lemmy.ca avatar

You are the dream crusher

RawrGuthlaf,

Just keep pushing for a better society that doesn’t need to lean on religion for comfort, and that dream may come true. But not forcing people to abandon things. That just makes resentment.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

and people can’t expect it to just go away completely.

At least 79% went away. Only 1% of my country’s population visited churches for christmas. For 20% of people who claim to belive in something other than sky fossil I have no data.

Zeroxxx,

Your puny country does not represent the whole world.

SreudianFlip,

Millions of people is a pretty good dataset for statistical reliability. That country can be considered a useful example of what’s possible.

Zeroxxx,

No. One country is not diverse enough.

SreudianFlip,

Why not? What are your assumptions about diversity in the context of the range of emotions and political tendencies?

Zeroxxx,

How is this case political?

Again, one country’s population does not represent 7 billion people. That is a fact. Those who say otherwise should check their math’s grade.

SreudianFlip,

Is it a fact because you want it to be, or are you some kind of statistics savant? It doesn’t represent the planet anthropologically, but it does psychologically, and whether it is possible for a population to drop organized religion is about brains not tradition.

Zeroxxx,

Small part*.

Like I said, like a broken record, statistics need to be representative.

This case you brought up, is not.

SreudianFlip,

Yes, it is, psychologically. You only need a few thousand to be highly accurate.

Individuals can drop attachments to organized religion. The example given, if true, can be seen as evidence. If you are making an anthropological argument that there’s a fundamental and practically immutable psychological difference between societies, you should say so, and address the occasional rapid shifts in social structures evident in modern history.

So far, you merely assert, with no explanation about your terms of reference.

Zeroxxx,

Lol yeah you wish.

Have fun with your delusion, you clearly know nothing about statistics.

This is my last message, bye.

Marin_Rider,

you never would have heard this come from the church, let alone the Pope 20 years ago. I don’t know why people can’t be happy that at least one religion is at least trying to be relevant and adapt to the times, and be more tolerant and inclusive. can’t say the same about every religion unfortunatly

Orionza,
@Orionza@lemmy.world avatar

When God says something is incorrect, that doesn’t change because people have become modern and adapt to the times. An act of abomination is still an abomination. How few stand on the side of God today!

DRx,
@DRx@lemmy.world avatar

I believe Jesus also said

Matthew 7:5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

So maybe we should focus on our own paths in life rather than someone else’s life decision that has 0 bearing on whether you or I go to heaven or hell?

I mean why people are so obsessed with what people do in their own home, on their own dime, and their own time is beyond me.

Christofacists just want to control others. They don’t care what Jesus said. They don’t want to FOLLOW Jesus, They want to BE Jesus and tell others how to live.

Orionza,
@Orionza@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not a Christian but okay. I believe Jesus would stand on God’s side and not go against His rulings. When people state truth that others don’t want to accept, they can be verbally attacked. They have the right to say their truth as well.

20hzservers,

Ah so you’re a troll got it. You’re making zero logically coherent arguments in this thread.

seejur,

Do you realize that for Christians God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same entity correct? Jesus is the son of God, and at the same time IS God.

Marin_Rider,

“god” says lots of things. interpretations need to change with time

MossyFeathers,

Not a Christian anymore, but I strongly remember being taught that Jesus said that through him all are saved.

Everyone.

Not, “everyone except Brian over there”.

E V E R Y O N E

I don’t care if the Bible says “gay=bad”; in my mind that’s just another sin on a mountain of shit because if Jesus, the son of God, says everyone is saved through him, then everyone is saved through him. No exceptions.

jtk,
@jtk@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

God has never said anything. Humans wrote a book.

Soggy,

I don’t want them to adapt, I want them abandoned and left in the Bronze Age.

Marin_Rider,

very progressive of you

20hzservers,

Well we don’t always get what we want. Life isn’t fair like that I don’t mean to start an argument I’m not religious either and also get upset at people hiding their own bigotry behind religion but looking down on others for having different beliefs is in of itself biggoted no?

SuddenDownpour,

Depends on the belief. Do they think that 2 + 2 equals 5? I’m not going to respect that. Do they argue for facts that are, from a sense of logic, mutually exclusive? Or something that we have empirical evidence against? Doesn’t make much sense. Do they support an idea that, while not impossible, we only have very limited evidence for? That’s a kind of personal belief I can respect, as long as they’re aware of its epistemological frailty. Is it an idea that could be possible, even though we have limited evidence for, and actively harms society? Then I’m back to not respecting it, for different reasons.

20hzservers,

Agreed, I don’t think that’s what the comment I replied to was talking about though.

platypus_plumba,

“People expect too much”.

Yeha, I expect an organization that protects pedophiles to be dismantled. Sorry if that’s expecting too much.

Allero,

While I’m all for phasing out modern religions over time, currently they still hold giant influence on hearts and minds of people, and, like it or not, Pope is an influential person; moreover, he’s essentially part of conservative camp, where we need change the most.

Also, let’s finally separate pedophiles and child molesters, as it’s both essential to understanding the dynamic that leads to this happening in churches (celibate warping people’s minds and children being easiest to lean to non-consential sex more often than actual pedophilia), as well as to create two distinct and effective solutions at child protection.

Actual pedophiles often need to get therapy to avoid mental traps that lead them to accept offending behavior, and those with severe lust over everything (which constitute over half of all child molestation cases) need other kind of therapy to manage their desires in a healthy way.

In case of the church, it means dismantling institute of celibacy alone can have a strong positive effect on child safety, as there would be no barriers for those “underfucked” to maintain a sexual life that would keep their minds in order. Maybe there is a point in going for that first?

platypus_plumba,

Or maybe if they stopped giving them immunity for their actions they would think twice before commiting a crime and ruining a child’s life.

Allero,

Better be both

But yes, everyone involved should be properly prosecuted.

Drivebyhaiku,

I mean… I don’t know if that’s gunna be the complete answer. The Boy Scout leaders had no expectations of celebacy but they had an endemic issue with child molestation. The idea that it’s the lack of adult access to sex that creates these situations ignores a lot of the realities of predators.

Personally I think the best thing to do is to actually mandate age appropriate sex ed. They piloted that program in our district when I was a kid. For a youngster of the tender age of 1st grade all this needs to be is "Here’s the proper names of the different genital types and if someone wants to touch in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable it’s okay to tell a parent, a teacher a doctor or an adult you trust where and how you have been touched to help make it stop.

You would be quite frankly shocked how many kids in the district blew whistles on adult some right out the gate from that first briefing. Preserving some nebulous children’s “innocence” isn’t worth even one child suffering in ignorance.

Allero,

Sex ed is an absolute must! It’s just that it’s one of many things that need to be done.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Religion is a reflection of humanity. A lot of people are thinking that humanity is a reflection of religion.

This is a bizarre sort of logic. If humanity is a reflection of religion, then where does religion come from? Perhaps from an omnipotent force of some sort?

If you believe religion is a creation of humans, than any issue with religion is ultimately just an issue with humans. And yeah, people suck.

Methinks lot of weird anti-religious ideas come from people who once believed religion came from an omnipotent being, then were in some way negatively affected be religion and realized that even religious people suck sometimes too. But the disappointment from discovering religion isn’t what they previously believed remains. The thought patterns about religion being a reflection of God and not being a reflection of humanity also remains. Even when someone no longer believes in God, the religious thought patterns remain.

kamenoko,

As a baseline I’d expect the major religions to clean up their own shit, but it seems like they’re never quite able to. I’d like my ancestor worhip to be a little less rapey and a little less reliant on an unknowable higher authority that mentally ill people think they can talk to.

Drivebyhaiku,

Ditto. Not a particularly a religious person (spiritualist more generally) and generally pretty critical of the Church but bloody tired of people who have been religion burned taking it out on others who are just clinging to comfort to get by in a hard world. Lemmy has a rather large Christian Atheist community. You know the sort, the “I don’t believe in God but the God I very stridently don’t believe in is the Christian God” type of person. It does come across as fairly insecure at times. I am reminded of the way I used to behave as an angry teen.

I think we are seeing a historic waning of faith and a reassessment of cultural values…but looking at the cycles of things that generally means there’s a backlash which might be still building or we might be facing it right now. I think it’s far better for those traumatized atheists to build solidarity with people inside the faiths who are pushing for and building the foundations for changes as “enemy of my enemy is my friend” alliances. Sadly a lot of them seem way too busy trying to attain personal catharsis by just scalding anyone who treats religion with respect.

spider, (edited )

I’m not a religious person, but I think some views in this thread are coming off a bit narcissistic and ignorant.

I encountered something similar in another Lemmy instance a couple of weeks ago with someone who believes all Christianity is bad, period.

The irony is, it’s the very same black-and-white thinking one would expect from a religious fundamentalist.

(Some Christian denominations are liberal, LGBTQ-friendly and not at all like that, such as United Church of Christ and Unity.)

phoenixz,

So close, so close, yet so so far

doctorcrimson,

No I think hes on point here, he is saying he blesses loving couples regardless of gender.

I can see how that coupd be misconstrued if you lacked context, though. Honest mistake.

dangblingus,

This just in: cult leader has irrelevant opinion on gay people.

phoenixz,

This being the leader of a billion people or so, I’m not sure how irrelevant it is. It’s a shit opinion, but he has a lot of followers

GilgameshCatBeard,

Nothing will ever please some people.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe this will make people finally stop calling him “the cool pope?”

It’s all lip service. He’s no better than any of the others. He just talks a good game.

Hadriscus,

Why ? isn’t that good, blessing people because they love each other ? did I misunderstand something ?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe I’m the one misreading? It seemed to me like he was saying being gay is still wrong, just not as wrong as being a crooked businessman because it involves love.

Enkrod,

Which makes him the cool pope, because after everything else he’s still the pope. Calling him cool pope was never about him being okay with gay marriage and always about him being less anti-gay than for example the absolutely horrendous pope Benedict.

And him having fighting words with more anti-love bishops does frame him as “the most progressive among his group of regressives”.

It’s the fucking catholic church, don’t expect them to be sane.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

“Less of a bigot” makes him cool?

And has he changed his mind about reporting child abuse to the church rather than the police?

I mean couldn’t we just call him ‘marginally better Pope’ or something?

Hadriscus,

I would amen to that

Enkrod,

I mean I call him, the “absolutist monarchical head of that organisation of delusional pedophiles”, but that’s not gonna change how this extremely wealthy organisation, that’s basically the worlds most thorough PR-machine, uses the media to frame him in the public eye.

Hadriscus,

I don’t think so. But not sure, my english is approximate

Psychodelic,

I think the intent is good but it’s similar to a white person saying I don’t have black friends or white friends, I just have fun friends. It’s like ok that’s nice but it kind of erases their differences and suggests they’re not real.

If your friend is brown, you’re friends with a brown dude. If you’re friend is gay, you’re friends with a gay dude. We want to celebrate people’s differences not erase them - especially when we’re in the dominant, or normative group

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t like that popes exist. I’m pretty sure if we took proper care of all people, religion would poof away in short order. That said, if popes have to exist this guy is a wonderful Pope. He’s not dismantling the place from the inside or anything but he is pushing them to be decent people. He’s pushing them to make more sympathetic decisions. We just look at this more shocking public statements and go well f*** yeah why doesn’t everybody say this, but for him in the position where he is he doesn’t have to and it’s kind of a big deal that he does.

Enkrod,

He’s still calling birth control “morally unacceptable”, continuing the anti-condom and therefore pro-aids rhethoric of the church.

Hadriscus,

Oh shit I didn’t know that. Changes the picture a bit…

Notyou,

I always assumed the no BC was because the church wants more members to grow up and hopefully tithe more. Either way the results being what they are and the church not using their position to inform and care for their people is a valid complaint.

dullbananas,
@dullbananas@lemmy.ca avatar

anti-condom and therefore pro-aids

That’s like saying someone is anti ending humanity and therefore pro suffering

Daft_ish,

Ok, but you bless a homosexual marriage…

betterdeadthanreddit,

No no no, you see, he’s traveling, not driving. It’s completely different.

FilthyShrooms,

And heterosexual marriage… so isn’t it just marriage? Shouldn’t matter if it’s hetero or homo, it’s just marriage, it’s just 2 people who love each other.

Daft_ish,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    dipshit,

    still catholic. still the pope. no matter how progressive he may seem.

    deweydecibel,

    I mean…yeah? Did you think progress was going to come from the outside? Someone’s gotta make an effort to steer the ship the right way.

    HonoraryMancunian,

    Right? Credit where credit’s due

    dipshit,

    What do you think would happen if he just came out and blessed gay marriage?

    AtariDump,

    They’d claim he’s possessed by a demon and disappear him.

    dipshit,

    riiiiight. the pope would be insurrectioned. sure.

    Silentiea,

    There’d be a schism, with the people who are currently getting upset instead just up and leaving. That might seem like a good thing, at first, but if the goal is to get everyone to heaven, you’re not really achieving it if half the people are leaving.

    I mean, you could say that you’re not achieving it either way, but that’s the thinking anyhow.

    dipshit, (edited )

    heaven isn’t real. literally all he has to do is come out and say “had a chat with god, turns out it was all a big misunderstanding. i bless gay marriage because being gay is ok!” the bar is so very low for him.

    Silentiea,

    Regardless, I’m fairly sure he would disagree with you, and I was discussing his motivations.

    dipshit,

    yeah because he’s a stupid, evil man. this is very easy for him.

    Silentiea,

    I try to be more generous than that when considering other people’s motivations, even those whose actions I find despicable.

    It obviously doesn’t excuse despicable actions, but it does give the opportunity to recognize when people are trying to be better.

    dipshit,

    I hold leaders to a higher standard. you should too.

    Silentiea,

    Holding leaders to a higher standard doesn’t mean calling them evil because they believe something different than you, it means not letting them hide behind their religion for their choices.

    But given that he does believe in heaven, and the organization he leads is made out of people who also believe in heaven, the fact that he’s trying to get as many people there as possible is hard to fault him for, especially when the thing he’s doing (telling the church to be more welcoming and kind to lgbtq folks) is objectively good.

    dipshit,

    When the pope says he can’t bless gay marriage, is that not letting him hide behind his religion for his choices?

    Unfortunately what he is doing is little better than “hate the sin love the sinner”.

    homosexuality is not a sin.

    Silentiea,

    When the pope says he can’t bless gay marriage, is that not letting him hide behind his religion for his choices?

    No, it’s him acknowledging his religion and saying people should be kind and respectful anyway.

    Homosexuality is a complicated subject among Catholics to say the least. Homosexual “acts” are officially a sin in Catholicism, and without the kind of change that would cause a schism, Francis can’t change that. From his perspective, if it did cause a schism anyone on the wrong side of the schism would be in jeopardy, and even if they weren’t they’d just continue on calling people sinners for being gay which Francis and the official stance of the church does oppose.

    So the Pope saying it’s okay to bless people even if you think they might be sinning may not be the most progressive thing in the world, may not be the most progressive thing he could say, but I do understand why he would say what he’s saying instead of something more concrete.

    I don’t have to agree with everything he says or thinks to recognize that.

    dipshit,

    Speaking as a baptized catholic myself (an apostile, appointed by god herself), since all of this is made up, and the pope is the leader, and talking to god is just making up thoughts in your head, there’s literally nothing real keeping him from coming out and blessing gay marriage. He doesn’t have to acknowledge the bigotry if he doesn’t want to, I think just blessing gay marriage himself would be enough.

    I’m not kidding, I’m really catholic. And since the church counts all baptised catholics as catholic even in cases of excommunication, I’ll always be a catholic. You don’t speak for me, and I bless gay marriage!

    Silentiea, (edited )

    In just the same way as the US president can just order all of the nukes to be launched at the moon, yes. But actions have consequences, so he doesn’t, even if it might be the “better” course of action for humanity if he did. Because it wouldn’t be the best course for his organization (at least from his perspective).

    dipshit,

    But actions have consequences, so he doesn’t, even if it might be the “better” course of action for humanity if he did.

    1. We can be critical of is action or inaction.
    2. These consequences are mythical and not relevant. I mean, do you think everyone’s going to just up and leave catholocism (good luck, literally no one can stop being a catholic, to the extent that their religion means anything)? Do you think they will take over the vatican? Do you think they will start sinning in other ways, like killing one another? Do you think catholics would go against what the pope has told them God has commanded?, really? I don’t. What am I missing here?

    Because it wouldn’t be the best course for his organization (at least from his perspective).

    Because it’s his opinion, because he (*[via] God [or whatever]) sets the rules. You know what, I’ll write him about this. I realize he’s got other archdiocese reading and responding to him but as a catholic it’s one of my rights. I am all for meeting people where they are at, but… it’s all but saying it, and until he does say it, he’s just giving people a way to win arguments claiming that homosexuality is a sin, making everyone their own lawyer trying to interpret what the pope is saying.

    If this were a politician trying to sway congress that’s one thing, but is the vatican not functionally a dictatorship, with the pope at the top?

    Silentiea,

    Do you think catholics would go against what the pope has told them God has commanded?

    Wouldn’t be the first time. In fact, it happens at a small scale fairly often, and it’s generally perceived as a tragedy when it does.

    If this were a politician trying to sway congress that’s one thing, but is the vatican not functionally a dictatorship, with the pope at the top?

    It’s not really. It’s an elected office, and certainly a political one. If there’s not a way to depose him once elected, it doesn’t make it not political. As for his supposed despotic power, he could theoretically do basically anything, but he doesn’t because the reality is that he doesn’t have the political will to do it.

    dipshit,

    tragedy

    I don’t think catholics know what that word means. Not in this context they sure don’t.

    This sounds like some “I don’t want to tell my kids about gay marriage because it’s going to make me mildly uncomfortable so I might as well demonize it”.

    Yeah, I guess I have a lot more faith in the pope than you do. I know he can do it, but I also know he doesn’t care enough to do it. It’s just showing face. It’s trying to market a dying religion.

    dipshit,

    I’m rooting for the little guy! maybe he can work his way up to a mortal position with some leverage.

    TheAlbacor,

    Progress won’t come from any Christianity (and likely almost any religion, but I don’t know others well enough to comment). They will either need to denounce the book as being bullshit and decide to progress or they will continue to hold society behind.

    PixellatedDave,

    You really need to see what progress has come through Christianity to see how absurd your statement is LOL.

    TheAlbacor,

    You mean despite of Christianity.

    The book is bigger than at its base. Our society cannot progress without removing it from a focal point.

    Silentiea,

    The Catholic Church has sponsored plenty of progressive endeavors, both in the fields of science and otherwise. Which is to say nothing of the numerous Catholic people who have done progressive things and would place their faith as their reason for doing so. So there is a lot of progress that has been made because of the church.

    That being said, there have also been far too many times where the church deliberately resisted important progress and/or attempted to undo it, hence progress despite the church.

    I don’t know where the balance lies on that, but I do think it’s worth acknowledging both and even moreso acknowledging attempts from within to ensure more of the former and less of the latter.

    Halcyon,
    @Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Yes, for several hundred years, monks were the largest literate social group in Europe. Libraries and the invention of book printing would never have become so large without monasteries and the church.

    In those times, science wasn’t per se in opposition to the church, that is a relatively modern approach.

    Rodeo,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    PixellatedDave,

    No wars before Christianity…gotcha.

    Silentiea,

    Numerous times, they just didn’t call it a crusade. Wars and genocide aren’t unique to Christians, or even to religion.

    And actually, come to think of it, yes, wasn’t the third crusade organized by secular parties (kings and such) and not the Pope? If that makes it because of Christianity, then the Iraq war was because of WMDs…

    assassin_aragorn,

    It’s worth mentioning that during the dark ages, it was actually monks who preserved history and scientific knowledge, and advanced it. Even afterwards, Mendelian genetics was discovered by Gregor Mendel, a friar and abbot.

    On top of that though, a lot of scientific knowledge and mathematics was preserved and cultivated by Islamic empires concurrent to the dark ages. They were in the middle of a golden age and progressed those fields further.

    The problem isn’t so much religion in itself, but evangelicals and literalists who put it above everything else. Zealots ruin it all.

    TheAlbacor,

    Yeah, the Catholic Church guarded access to education, preventing the rest of the commoners from learning how poorly they translated the Bible to maintain control of the people. It’s too bad the Protestant movement didn’t destroy the Catholic Church.

    Sprokes,

    There’s no progressive religion (I am not including Buddhism). They all say that their religion promotes peace and tolerance but they still believe in what written in their sacred book and won’t change a thing.

    dipshit,

    thesatanictemple.com/…/there-are-seven-fundamenta…

    Rai,

    Yer name is not checkin out here tbh

    dipshit,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Rai,

    You’ve misunderstood me. I enjoyed your reply and was saying your name doesn’t describe you.

    dipshit,

    My mistake.

    stoly,

    Even the Buddhists are committing a genocide against Muslims in Myanmar.

    Fungah,

    Im pretty sure even fighting in a war at gunpoint is not a Buddhist to thing to do. Genocide definitely disqualified you. Though culturally and religious Buddhist are two different things. The Buddha basically told everyone not to worship him and make him a religious figure and every sect of Buddhism just kind of turned around and did it anyway. Their justification is “lol”. So like. I dunno. Buddhism kind of accepts that everything anyone can or will do is something they’ve done. And existence is suffering. Freeing yourself from attachment and embracing the moment with love and kindness is a person thing, and sure genociders may be cenociding other people but ultimately through a Buddhist lens they’re harming themselves and straying further from enlightenment in the here and now.

    Nothing really like MATTERS for a Buddhist in the big picture sense. We live, we do things, we die, ultimately none of it comes to anything. There’s no one watching over you to punish you or praise you, and nothing for you after you die but more of this through a different lens or to finally be done with the bullshit and leave it all behind…

    It’s a doctrine for being happy NOW. Follow it, don’t, ultimately you’re the only person it matters to.

    stoly,

    Sounds like the Satanic Temple don’t it?

    deranger,

    Buddhism is absolutely not “a doctrine for being happy now”. This statement makes it sound like you don’t even have a cursory understanding of Buddhism. Likewise with “nothing really matters for a Buddhist in the big picture sense”.

    r_se_random,

    While the general idea of Buddhism is pretty nice, there are some highly questionable aspects like women being impure by birth, and not being able to achieve Nirvana (eternal peace/heaven) either through rough tribulations or doing enough good to be born as a man.

    Of course it’s impossible to check if it was Buddha who said it, or it was added later by his people, but the above is something that isn’t discussed much imo.

    intensely_human,

    Faith is actually a mechanism to ensure change keeps happening. It suspends the “sealing off” of the mind that replaces sensory input with projected theory.

    Buddhism uses presence for the same function abrahamic religions use faith. It’s a source of noise to keep the conceptual structure from gaslighting the adherent into being unable to see what’s in front of them.

    barsoap,

    Faith is actually a mechanism to ensure change keeps happening. It suspends the “sealing off” of the mind that replaces sensory input with projected theory.

    Motherfucker. What do you think religious doctrine is and faith in it does.

    Buddhism uses presence for the same function abrahamic religions use faith.

    Buddhism, if you drill down into the monastic core, is introspective psychology. It has much more in common at that level with what’s considered philosophy in the western tradition, in particular Stoicism. It arrived at that knowledge during an initially productive scientific phase, meaning theorising and experimenting, later on alas it fell away from that and various groups fell back into that exact sealing off you mentioned, not investigating any more but accepting the map of the territory they read in monastery school as the territory. Religious innovation generally follows that kind of repeating pattern over quite long time-spans.

    It’s a source of noise to keep the conceptual structure from gaslighting the adherent into being unable to see what’s in front of them.

    You could also, you know, just be sceptical. Heck, even be a capital-S Sceptic them and the Stoics disagreed on like exactly one point which from a certain POV is semantics.

    …not to mention that that’s not how the mind works. It’s not how life works. If you want entropy then it’s going to come from the outside, everything about life itself is geared towards minimising entropy on the inside, at the expense of accelerating its progression on the outside. (Yes the purpose of life is to hasten the heat-death of the universe, different topic). What may seem like internal randomness to you is merely your degrees of freedom doing their thing, the capacity to react to the same external stimulus in different ways depending on your internal state. It’s a chaotic system (and overall you are) but it’s definitely not noise, not from the POV of the organism itself: It is not subject to it, but is employing it.

    If, OTOH, all you wanted to say is “hey I found a way to stop walking into lamp posts and I describe it like…” then first off congratulations, keep up the good work, but also I don’t care about your half-arsed theory. Maybe if you didn’t connect it up with the concept of noise it would’ve at least ended up being internally consistent. Keep not having theories if you want to see actual freedom from that conceptual stuff. Maybe investigate why you felt the need to to explain the experience instead of taking it at face value.

    intensely_human,

    Yup. If you’re a Catholic and find yourself disagreeing with the Pope that’s a good moment to practice a little humility.

    ipkpjersi,

    Don’t you think a progressive pope can do a lot of good though especially compared to a traditionalist pope?

    dipshit,

    how hard is it to bless something, really? wake me up when he’s an ally.

    Podunk,

    Fucks sake im so tired of you jaded militant shitbirds. It is constantly 120% with you fucks. Its always “agree with my personal breakdown of reality and morality or you are all complete garbage” nonsense. Progress doesnt happen on your schedule you shithead.

    Nuance and context motherfucker. Do you understand it?

    Nudding,

    He is the current leader of a 2000 year old pedophile ring (the largest to ever exist) that owns its own gold plated city/country.

    Fuck off with this defense of traditional bullshit. Progress doesn’t happen in tiny steps, it happens all at once with violence and bloodshed. Have you learned nothing from history?

    platypus_plumba,

    Agreed. The pope should keep his mouth shut when it comes to ethics. He’s sitting on a throne of dead bodies.

    Bahalex,

    Man, I thought I was on crazy pills with the lack of nuance here. Everything is black and white with no room for gray or context…

    I’m digging the past few days. There have been a number of posts and comments calling it out. The fact that your comment has positive upvotes is a good sign and surprising.

    betterdeadthanreddit,

    Old irrelevant fuck continues to try and rehabilitate a dying organization’s image before the history books can slam shut on its chapter. Tear down the churches and build something useful instead, that’s a lot of wasted space in cities across the world.

    dipshit,

    I like the attitude though there is a lot to tear down. e.g., hospitals.

    betterdeadthanreddit,

    Leave the hospitals up, just require that they be transferred to a legitimate healthcare organization which will offer medical care without the condition of “…if my god says it’s okay” attached.

    dipshit,

    it’s the “require that they be transferred” part which might be an issue. if there’s a legal pathway to this then lets go!

    betterdeadthanreddit,

    Understandable. Could be a matter of putting an industry restriction in place where in order to own and operate a hospital, they’d be bound to a set of rules that would not give them the authority to refuse things like abortions and other types of healthcare that the bible-thumpers find objectionable. No more incentive to run a hospital when they won’t have that level of control over peoples’ lives.

    dipshit,

    Make the hypocratic Oath hypocratic law, binding all medical professionals. clarify that hypocratic law means preventing harm to the person delivering the child, and that the “harm” doesn’t apply to the practictioner’s personal beliefs.

    Univeral healthcare also couldn’t hurt.

    chillhelm,

    Don’t actually tear down church buildings though.

    Many of them are beautiful and even if the morals of the Organisation(s) that built them are, to put it mildly, “outdated”, it is still a huge part of our cultural history.

    Use the spaces to open “sexual health centers” (like Planned Parenthood on steroids), libraries, and in like 1 or 2 per continent you could create memorial centers to keep alive the memories of the suffering created by organized, doctrinal religion.

    Moving past a phase of our cultural development has to include remembering that phase. The church buildings turned to useful purpose will be powerful monuments.

    reddig33,

    I don’t need your blessing. Thanks.

    Kalkaline,
    @Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

    So don’t seek it out like the people who visit the Pope do. Easy-peasy

    reddig33,

    Is it that simple though? This guy’s running around interpreting the Bible for a huge swath of the world’s population. Maybe people should read it themselves instead of letting some dude pass judgment on people, and in turn giving permission to others to pass along that same judgment.

    The only one who should be blessing or judging here is God.

    intensely_human,

    We should start a new religion, based on protesting this idea of the book being interpreted by the priesthood.

    We could call it Protester’s Christianity or something. Protest Religion. Protestingism maybe.

    Annoyed_Crabby,

    That’s just the little know religion called Atheism.

    Black_Gulaman,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Woooooooooooooooooooosssssssshhhhhhhh

    Snowpix,
    @Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

    Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods, not a religion itself. That’s like saying your favourite sport is not playing soccer.

    AnneBonny,

    People who act shocked that a priest would bless a gay couple but have no problem with him blessing a crooked businessman are hypocrites, Pope Francis said.

    Did something come up about priests blessing crooked businessmen, or is he just speaking in general terms?

    Bonesince1997,

    It could just be the nature of not necessarily being able to see one’s business corruption nor there being a test for it. Yet a homosexual couple can’t exactly hide that fact. Just my guess (I didn’t read the article).

    AnneBonny,

    OK, thanks for your pov.

    cm0002,

    Well, in the Bible, I know there were at least a few stories where Jesus didn’t take too kindly to what would be a modern day businessman.

    The one where Jesus goes into a rage because a bunch of merchants set up shop in the courtyard(? Or maybe they took over the whole temple? Idk it’s been awhile) of a temple comes to mind

    Sanctus,
    @Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

    Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

    James 5:1-6 has a lot to say of the rich, too.

    intensely_human,

    This is a warning not a condemnation. As Jesus also says “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”.

    Basically it means when you’re wealthy, it’s very hard to find a good reason to expand beyond suffering. You can just another line of coke or throw another party or go on another vacation and so you’re never forced to find the real solution to suffering.

    Basically infinite medicine for the symptoms prevents the process of digging deeper to find a cure. And the digging deeper is quite painful, so it’s not the kind of thing someone does unless they’re desperate.

    intensely_human,

    They aren’t merchants they’re moneychangers, ie loan sharks

    AnneBonny,

    Well, in the Bible, I know there were at least a few stories where Jesus didn’t take too kindly to what would be a modern day businessman.

    What I meant was “Did he choose that example because of some current event?” I wasn’t questioning whether members of the church should be upset about priests blessing crooks.

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