“They” as in who exactly? Are Palestinians a monolith? No, so fuck off with the disinformation. Fatah has signed Oslo, while the Israeli Right who has been governing since has been doing everything in its power to undermine the 2SS. They have been creating facts on the ground, that specifically undermine Palestine’s right to exist. With your own stupid fucking logic, Israel lost its right to exist.
So no, you are wrong. Israel and Palestine have the exact same right to exist. Either they both do or none of them do (i.e., binational democratic 1SS).
Palestine was relying on some type of pan-Arab response or Arab unity, but now it seems as though the only country that has any influence on Israel in the region is Iran. Everyone else is either beholden to other interests or reeling from decades of conflict.
I’m for Palestine and their right to self defense and have their land back from Israeli robbers, but:
Before they were fighting to have their land back. Now they have to fight not to be genocided
On past conflicts, they always lost much more than Israel
Israel is military much more powerful
How can Hamas have thought that the situation would improve, even if Palestinians deserve freedom?
I’m coming to the sad conclusion that indeed Palestine will disappear, like the indigenous people disappeared in the US.
If they are lucky they will preserve they culture like the Jews did after being kicked out by Rome, and will come back 2000 years later, when they have more technology.
Is this a recurring pattern of people/cultures living in this region? I know of curds and other people who seem to suffer as well from a similar fate.
It was pretty clear that Palestine was going to disappear if the course of history didn’t change, and arguably is already gone. One can see that there’s simply no viable state of Palestine left—just fragments of land surrounded and controlled by an apartheid regime—by looking at the map.
If one were charitable, one could say that Hamas took an accelerationist approach as a hail Mary attempt to fight it. Or, as I think, they’ve gone down the path that so many radical groups in history have: Deciding that achieving their goal is worth sacrificing the people they originally set out to save, possibly even holding those people in contempt for not joining the noble struggle.
In any case, the only motive for the October 7th attack that sense to me is that Hamas wanted to provoke Israel into an all-too-predictable overreaction, to draw in the West Bank and other Arab powers, to de-legitimize Israel on the world stage, or both. Months later, we can see that it’s not not working. They are closer to diplomatic recognition of a Palestinian state by a number of nations than they have been at any point in decades.
I read about the Jewish roman war in 70 BCE, and when the city of Masada was about to be entirely killed, all jewish there (around 1.5 MILLION people) just committed suicide.
Maybe yes, instead of commiting suicide you can have your last “desperate attempt”, not to die passively.
I read about the Jewish roman war in 70 BCE, and when the city of Masada was about to be entirely killed, all jewish there (around 1.5 MILLION people) just committed suicide.
One MAJOR reason most people seem to be missing for the October the 7th attack was indeed religious. But maybe not in the way you’d expect…
Religious Jews and Evangelical Christians are trying to bring about the apocalypse, from the bible. They believe they must rebuild the Temple. Issue is, al-aqsa is in the temple mound and it’s one of the most sacred places for Muslims. Destroying it would start a major war.
And they started moving to have the third temple rebuilt. There are plans to demolish al-aqsa and start the works. The three red heifers to be sacrificed, turned into ash and used to purify the priests who will start the building work are the first step.
If you read Hamas’ explanations for the October 7th attack, al-aqsa is a central part of it. It was called al-aqsa flood after all.
edit: to clarify, there is real material danger to the al-aqsa mosque
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about Palestinian people. They like to kick hornets nest from time to time so people get harshly punished. This produces loads of media attention which begets more humanitarian aid which never ends up in hands of those who need it, instead it goes straight to Qatar.
This is a recurring pattern in oppressed people. The same thing happened in Ireland, South Africa, and a bunch of Colonies. It’s not at all uncommon to find an idea that each generation has to sacrifice in resistance ideology.
Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it. article
I have read the article, but it’s too shallow and have no original video of the conversation.
As NYT is often picking facts which supports Israel cause, I would like to ask for the originals of Hamas speaking on behalf of Hamas, not NYT speaking on behalf of Hamas.
Do you have any direct Hamas source, or any Arabic source of what was Hamas Intention?
Hamas’s military leader, Mohammed Deif, said the group undertook its assault because of Israel’s long-running blockade of Gaza, its occupation of Palestinian lands, and its alleged crimes against Muslims, including the desecration of Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.
We have previously warned the Israeli occupation against continuing their crimes and appealed to world leaders to work on putting an end to the Israeli crimes against our Palestinian people and detainees, their holy sites and homeland and to put pressure on the Israeli occupation to abide by international law and resolutions.
Just after October 7, Hamas leaders declared three main objectives. The first was to capture Israeli soldiers in order to achieve a prisoner exchange. The second was to respond to attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank and to protect Al-Aqsa Mosque from settlers. The Hamas leaders, if you remember, claimed to have acted on behalf of Al-Aqsa, which is why the operation was called Al-Aqsa Flood. The third objective was putting the Palestinian cause at the center of international concerns and preventing the consolidation of regional agreements between Israel and Arab countries.
The guerilla wins if it does not lose. After 6 months of Genocide israel still isn’t even close to wiping Hamas. International opinion has completely shifted on israel showing the world what the Palestinians have actually been suffering from for over 75 years. Hamas is now growing in the West Bank and Lebanon, they are bigger than ever and israel is losing allies by the day because everyone realizes they are Nazis. Hamas has won in every single way.
The only way one can pretend Hamas is losing is by saying that Hamas is responsible for all the innocent civilians that israel is brutally massacaring. But Hamas is as responsible for that as the Jews which families were slaughtered when they fought back against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto.
Ok, but see I’m not worried about Hamas, I’m worried about the rest of the population who is being slaughtered.
Are their better off after the 7th, or they are worse but accept is better than dying passively? From their point or view, how do they feel about what will happen?
I have a friend in Gaza and she’s really suffering. I don’t ask her too much because I don’t want to make her thing of the tragedy.
A lot of people got killed by the Apartheid in South Africa during the armed resistance. A lot of people died fighting against the Nazis… Your friend was suffering far before this mass Genocide started.
Every day israel does not defeat Hamas but massacres innocent civilians trying to collect food they lose more reputation on the global stage. Israel went from nobody knowing how bad they were to being seen as Nazis in six months. 100 years of carefully crafted Zionist propaganda completely destroyed because they have gotten too arrogant and open about their crimes believing themselves invincible.
Gaza went from having absolutely no chance of a future for Palestine because of the Abraham accords to having Spain and other countris now trying to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state.
Hamas was aware of was coming to them after the 7th October, or did they underestimate it?
I don’t think even Hamas expected the 7 Oct attack to go this well for them. The Aljazeera doc on Oct7 shows that they were disoriented because they never expected israel to just open mid.
It is still very possible Netanyahu let it happen to give him an excuse to invade and take over Gaza. I speculate that Netanyahu expected he would be able to beat Hamas though instead of dragging it on for so long. We are now 6 months in and that
was the Palestinian people aware of what would follow, and did they accept to “pay for it”?
It was a secret operation not a well discussed plan so no. Though support for Hamas has drastically risen after the Palestinians have suffered these atrocities on the hand of israel as they refuse to be oppressed longer.
Only hindsight will give them the ability to judge whether it was worth it as we still don’t know what the result will be. If Gaza gets eradicated completely then of course they will say it was not worth. If they get their own state and the wall gets removed they will look at it differently.
Nobody is exactly aware of what will result from their actions, I think the absolute best-case scenario for Palestine as a result of this post-October 7th escalation is that American youth gain a vastly increased awareness of the horrors of the Palestinian genocide.
This seems to actually have happened. American congress people are super worried about the anti-Israel sentiment rising in youth, and this is a major factor, if not the sole factor, driving the tiktok ban/forced sale attempts.
If anti-Israel sentiment stays strong for say 1-2 more decades while boomers continue to die off, America could very easily turn anti-Israel, and vote in line with Palestine and the rest of the world on widely agreed upon 2 state solutions.
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. The 2017 Revised charter accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter
I've always felt like Article 7 is the most problematic, translation is always an issue, but if it doesn't call directly for killing all the jews, it at least fantasizes about it.
Even calling that 'the most problematic' is maybe not accurate. Really, it's just the most problematic article that's relevant to the current situation, there are a lot of articles in the charter that should give pause.
Hamas does not want to slaughter all Jews that’s an Israeli fabrication. Hamas only targets people occupying Palestine. There are many Christians living in Gaza as well.
Even the Christians only started getting killed by israel. Because israel wants to eradicate everyone from a different group than their own, like the Nazis did
Have you read their charter? It literally says so:
First, they believe in a day of judgement that requires the eradication of all Jews:
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)"
They will do this by first destroying Israel:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it
Then they will proceed to do the same with the rest of the world:
"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’." (Article 32)"
Hamas is literally founded with genocide in mind.
It goes on to say that they will also refuse any peace treaty, and condemn those (such as Egypt) who have made peace or attempt any peaceful resolution with Israel
That sentence does not say what you say it does whatsoever. It describes a battle with some Jews, not the eradication of all Jews. This is the actual charter of Hamas.
The evidence is very clear as well. Hamas has never attacked any Jews outside of israel because they do not hate Jews. Hamas has also killed many foreign workers in israel on Oct7. They do not care about what religion or race the people occupying them have. The just resist occupation.
That is not the full charter, article 16 (your image) wasn't mentioned by the above poster and isn't involved directly in this conversation.
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)"
His reference of Article 7 is subject to translation issues obviously, but it's very difficult to stretch it in any way that makes it positive.
I dare say the goal of Hamas to attract the public attention to the Palestinian statehood, and in a way they achieved that goal, but to what price.
I am not justifying their attack on Israel, but things weren’t exactly rosy both in Gaza and the West bank and the world was focused on other issues, while letting Israel do whatever they please.
The Israeli government intentionally let the hamas armored faction grow in funds and arms for a few years. It was well known within security agencies that that was happening. Just as other situations, they have let it grow so they could have the “excuse” to attack gaza / and other places like they pleased.
They won’t stop until there’s no Palestine, they can throw everything at you but in the end what they want is all of Palestine and possibly other regions as well to become all for the Israeli State.
So it didn’t quite work out how the fascist sharia rape gang of Hamas wanted, who would have thought?! Now let’s hope for a quick end to all violence in the entire region and that the fuckhead Netanyahu gets what he deserves as well.
Responding to a single comment someone makes is harassment? In that case, you’ve harassed me repeatedly.
Also, you are obviously not familiar with the phrase “have you stopped beating your wife yet,” which is too bad, because that’s essentially what you were doing- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
Im sorry that you are just now realising that everything you put in a thread instead of PM is available for anyone with Access to Lemmy to see, its probably a lesson you needed to eventually learn though. I dont want ANYONE to be pro genocide, thats incredibly fucked up. I do find it concerning when someone can find catharsis from thousands of people dying though
You accused me of being happy about the eradication of other human beings.
Like, shit, man, that’s fucked up and you know it is wrong to just say things like that. If you know something is wrong to do in person, it is wrong to do it anonymously as well.
Personal attacks are against rule 5. I am not going to delete your comment because you made it in reply to me, but please do not do so again to me or anyone else in this community. Thank you.
You must’ve missed all the videos of the IDF gleefully destroying civilian houses and the israeli developers gleefully laying out their plans for the new beach front property. Maybe you’re technically right since they were being gleeful against the Palestinian people and not hamas.
For those that don’t know, FlyingSquid is a mod who roams around various news communities antogonizing anyone who doesn’t toe his anti-Israel line, and then flaunts his mod status when someone gets upset. He’s like one of those Reddit power mods that everyone complains about.
Oh yeah, and I noticed the other day that people are getting their comments removed for “genocide denial” if they don’t line up to pre-judge the outcome of the genocide case South Africa brought against Israel. Apparently, a few mods think they are qualified to judge the outcome of the case without being, you know, actual judges qualified in the laws of war. This kind of antagonistic mod behavior is making some communities into Reddit 2.0.
FlyingSquid, wake up man. You are abusing the tiny amount of power you have to make Lemmy into an echo chamber. You oppose what’s happening in Gaza. We get it already. You don’t have to constantly roam around antagonizing people who disagree with you.
I wondered who it was, but then I saw I have FS blocked and just see the word “filtered” instead of amy comment. Think I made the right choice at some point then.
I didn’t ask if you wanted to call me one, I asked if you think I am one. Many people from your instance have referred to me as such, I’m just curious whether they are doing so with the full endorsement of their moderator.
Don’t worry, I have no expectation of getting an answer to that question. I’m just hoping it isn’t due to the fact that its the answer I think it is.
I answered your question very clearly. I say what I think of people. However, I will leave what I currently think of you out of this because of the civility rule. That said, those thoughts have nothing to do with genocide or Zionism and the only way I have ever associated you or anyone else I can remember on Lemmy with those to words is when you lied about me accusing other people of being those things.
And I am betting you will lie about that by claiming I still didn’t answer your question.
Again, you lied and said I accused people of being genocidal Zionists. Are you going to acknowledge it? I doubt it, because you’re pretending you never said it.
If this is about me as a moderator, talk about what I have done as a moderator. Don’t lie about it.
The fact is that I have never accused you or anyone else of being a genocidal Zionist. I don’t even use the word Zionist very often.
You lied. You won’t even acknowledge you lied.
I don’t know if you are a “genocidal Zionist” and I don’t care if you are a “genocidal Zionist.” What you personally believe about Israel doesn’t interest me. What I care about is you lying and thinking you can get away with it.
Well I am glad to know you don’t consider me that and hopefully now that a moderator has taken a stand, I am hoping it has a chilling effect on those from .world who have been engaging in that sort of behavior.
I’m glad we had found some sort of middle ground of understanding between each other.
We didn’t find middle ground. Because you lied about me and are pretending you didn’t. There was no middle ground because you made a false claim about what I have done and what I believe.
And you aren’t even being adult enough to admit it, let alone apologize.
The only stand I am taking is the one where I call you a liar. Sadly, it has had no chilling effect on you, so I assume I’ll be seeing you lying again.
Edit: I take that back, I’m also taking the stand that it’s incredibly cowardly to repeatedly refuse to acknowledge a blatant lie.
Lied about you? I am trusting you enough to take you off a list of pro-hamas sock puppet accounts solely on the basis you claim to have never heard of a screen name also on the list.
I think a lot more good faith was directed towards you than was directed at me.
Dude you talk like you think you’re a master of conversation that can twist a narrative to suit your point at will, but you’ve come out of this conversation looking like someone who is detached from reality and what is being said to you
edit: Maybe you think people are sock puppets because you dont realize when multiple people are telling you you’re wrong, that you’re actually wrong?
1 I’m reeeeeaaally not a communist, thanks for that laugh xD
2: The message you are reffering to was in response to YOU saying:
“You aren’t also happy that things have fallen apart for Hamas?”
And yeah, sure, things are probably falling apart for them, along with EVERYONE in Gaza and through MUCH bloodshed. NOTHING about the Isreal Gaza situation makes me happy, and I was pointing out how kinda fucked it is that you think there should be anything to he happy about
Why are you “lovely people” assuming I’m making assumptions? I’m literally stating my issues here. Being happy with Hamas falling apart is incredibly fucked up considering what “falling apart” looks like. Fuck Hamas, Fuck Netanyahu and the IDF too, this whole shitshow is fucking awful, but NOTHING that has happened is anything to be remotely happy about.
Edit: I’ve gotten too many civility removals lately, so I self civility edited
That seems more of a conspiracy theory. I have been on Lemmy for nearly a year (since the reddit API fiasco) and have never heard of Core either.
Odd, how you and @sailingbythelee work together to bother a mod by making up weird theories of creating an echo chamber as your posts ARE NOT deleted and have the nerve to call that person a bully.
Networks leave behind evidence and all of our posts here are public, so if you are accusing people of something you are capable of documenting than I hope you have it documented.
What other Lemmy based conspiracies are you responsible for inventing?
Have you heard of Core? I suspect Core is @FlyingSquid.
My reasoning is as follows. Core likes blue (which I induce from the fact mostpeople like blue) and things that fly, usually fly in the blue sky. Also, squids swim in water and water seems pretty blue. So, yeah, Core’s identity has to be @FlyingSquid .
I’m not going to get into what makes a network. Take your astroturfing back to Reddit.
Well I am just glad you have admitted to inventing conspiracy theories about me rather than pretend you actually believe in them, or god forbid, you not actually pretend.
and then flaunts his mod status when someone gets upset.
And yet you’re upset…
Oh yeah, and I noticed the other day that people are getting their comments removed for “genocide denial” if they don’t line up to pre-judge the outcome of the genocide case South Africa brought against Israel.
You seem to be implying I’m doing that, when I’ve done nothing of the sort.
You are abusing the tiny amount of power you have to make Lemmy into an echo chamber.
And yet you’re still here.
You don’t have to constantly roam around antagonizing people who disagree with you.
Check out your own comment count. You aren’t moderating the conversation, you are dominating it. You are everywhere and you are relentless, and you apparently lack the self-awareness necessary to recognize it and moderate your activity.
I unsubscribed from a couple of communities because of you.
Jesus they have a lot of comments here because they answer to all your accusations. Really you are the one antagonizing people in nearly all your comments
Whatever side you’re on, it cannot be denied that this invasion was triggered by Hamas on Oct 7. The same person you are accusing as being “gleeful” is calling for an end to all violence in the exact same post. It’s ok to criticize Hamas.
This is something I don’t understand on this community: Any time the slightest criticism is leveraged towards Hamas it is given the least charitable interpretation or reading. There is no counter to the claim, just tone policing of some sort.
On the other hand, we can say whatever the f**k we want about the great oppressor, Israel. Which by the way, don’t get me wrong: the IDF are horrible blood thirsty opportunists milking the Oct 7 attack in order to inflict maximum damage in Gaza. But if we continue to be charitable towards Hamas in perpetuity we are throwing the Palestinian people under. They cannot rely on Hamas to get them out of this. The violence has to end and we need to stop Israel at all costs from continuing this occupation.
Just like that. This is the prime example: More tone policing. I never asked if anyone here condemns Hamas. I’m merely pointing out that even expressing the slightest frustration about the actions Hamas does towards any peace process is an invitation to be called a) a zionist b) defending Israel’s genocide (I have to preface every post I make with how much I abhor the actions of the IDF but even that doesn’t matter). There is no conversation to be had. I get the impression this is predominantly an echo chamber.
Not by me. You haven’t violated any of the community rules. I have no reason to do any sort of moderator action. You are allowed to make criticisms even if I don’t personally consider them to be valid as long as those criticisms do not include personal attacks (or any other rule violations).
A tone argument (also called tone policing) is a type of ad hominem aimed at the tone of an argument instead of its factual or logical content in order to dismiss a person’s argument. Ignoring the truth or falsity of a statement, a tone argument instead focuses on the emotion with which it is expressed. This is a logical fallacy because a person can be angry while still being rational.
Maybe tone policing is not the right term. I might be doing a poor job of explaining myself. What I’m saying is no one here really engages with the topics presented because they’re bought in to the epistemic constellation of beliefs they need to have to be part of the lemmy in-group they are part of. Didn’t you yourself react to how “gleefully” OP presented their case? Isn’t that an emotional reaction?
Yes. I have emotions and I react with them, especially when I infer emotion from the person I am talking to. I am not a robot.
As far as some “Lemmy in-group” thing, do you think there are private meetings or something? Everyone here is an individual. If a majority of people disagree with someone, that doesn’t mean they’re part of a club.
I’m not saying in-group like a conspiratorial cabal. I’m talking about the Lemmy mob suppressing any outside thoughts instantly, just like you did when you attacked the tone of OPs comment as “gleeful”. I’d like to see more engagement with arguments/facts rather than loading every comment with emotionally charged language. That’s my dream at least. I really don’t want to go back to Reddit….
Reddit, the place where people who engage with arguments and facts rather than loading everything with emotionally charged language?
And, again, I would suggest saying that there are Lemmy in-groups and calling it an echo chamber sounds like emotionally charged language rather than anything factual.
See, this is what I’m talking about. This is so tone-deaf. I never said we should ignore the historicity of the attack. Or the history of the region. But you still felt compelled to ignore the thesis of the point: The main occupation that is going on now was triggered by Oct 7. If you want to talk about the moral legitimacy of the Oct 7 attack that’s fine too! Let’s talk about that as well. But at least engage with the topic.
Come on, man. Do you think we all woke up on Oct 7 and learned there’s a conflict in the middle east? I’ve lived in Haifa for many years. Does it appear when we talk about Oct 7 escalation that we are disregarding the hundred years of disastrous fighting that preceded it? All I’m saying is let’s give some more charitability to the people we are engaging with. That’s all.
But…you’re telling us stuff we already know. You’re preaching to the choir. Isn’t all this already common knowledge? What am I missing?
Also, how far back should we go? 50 years? 100? 1000? People born today in Israel are several generations away from the Peele commission. What responsibility do they have? I just don’t understand the need to automatically bring up the whole history of middle east. That would be like talking nuclear physics and having to repeat general algebra each time we have a convo. Like, ok. Cool. Now what?
I can agree with these points but i question their usefulness. For instance let’s take:
Israel is an ethno supremacy settler colony and an apartheid state.
What does that do for us? I believe Israel agreed to two state solutions in the past. We can contend with the details of those negotiations but it was on the table. How do we move forward?
The only way towards freedom of Palestinian people is freedom of any movement that is powered by any imperial force, be that the USA or Russia or China or even regionally Saudi Arabia or Iran (to which I count Hamas).
Hi, I had a quick look on your other posts and got some insight.
You seem to believe that both sides are equally right and wrong, and want to draw conclusions based on that.
This remembers me of myself some years ago: if I read Palestinian stories, I’d get pro Palestine. If I get the same story from Israeli side, they just changed some propositions and I’d think Israel was actually right.
That’s very confusing.
Everything changed when I read this now updated article and saw this video:
Ps 2: on this topic, some people take sides because, based on what they read, they see one side is suffering injustice or not. Some people on this topic act like soccer team fans and will defend their team even when they are totally wrong. Some people are just parroting Russia/China positions for being communists, or parroting USA/Israel for being anti communists. Know who you are talking to before wasting time with the last 2 types
The only side I’m on is that of the Palestinian people right now. My goal is to stop all suffering. So my main contention is with the undue support that many individuals – @Linkerbaan for example – give out to Hamas because they don’t understand reality and they think it’s virtuous.
Hamas does not recognize Israel as a state. At least Fatah was willing to come to negotiations.
Hamas has in its charter the liberation of Palestine from “the river to the sea”. They will not stop until this objective is achieved while their leaders sit in lavish palaces in Qatar and other places. If you were to ask me, TheFonz, I’m personally ok going back to the 68 partition. But reality is it’s not happening. That ship has sailed over fifty years ago. We are 100 years past the Peele commission. What are Israeli kids born today going to do about the 68 partition? Absolutely nothing.
So while Hamas keeps throwing rockets into the lion’s den thinking they will liberate Palestine while their people get crushed by bombs is incredibly sad. And people here keep cheering them on. I want a complete ceasefire and removal of all Israeli settlements.
Hamas does not recognize Israel as a state. At least Fatah was willing to come to negotiations.
Does israel recognize Palestine now? Oh wait they don’t. They openly state they will do everything to prevent a Palestinian state being established. But now that Hamas has retaliated suddenly Palestine is on the fast track to get recognized.
What a weird pivot. That’s what you took from my comment? Do you think I’m here to defend Israel? At least Israel acceded authority to the PLO during the Oslo accords. Progress is made incrementally not overnight.
Israeli settlements need to stop. I don’t disagree. What’s your plan to bring Israel to negotiations? Should Hamas keep doing what it’s doing? Is that…working in your opinion? Give me a concrete path @linkerbaan. Walk us through a process that gets this resolved. Or do you not care about Palestinians? It’s more exciting to root for Hamas on Lemmy, right?
Just like the Nazis israel does not have any interest in diplomacy so only one option remains.
Hamas did a peaceful march in 2018 and got massacared. You can keep victim blaming all you want. They have tried all peaceful options. The only problem in this conflict is israel.
Israel, as awful as they are, did present paths for moving forward 68, Camp David, Oslo accords. Now, you’ll say they were never in good faith or enough. Which is fair, perhaps it wasn’t enough to secure peace, but at least it was something.
The alternative you’re proposing is throwing more Palestinian civilians into the fire because of your moral indignation towards Israel. I personally, don’t want that. I want harm reduction. I want Israeli settlements removed and Palestinians to have the right to self govern (two state solution). But propping Hamas indefinitely will not achieve this. It’s been already many decades since this conflict started. Hamas is not going to turn the tide. Before Hamas there was the PLO, and before them many others. Change can only happen with a 3rd party intervention the same way we did in Bosnia/Yugoslavia. But a ceasefire is needed now, not more moral grandstanding and rockets.
Israel is actively inviting Americans to come on a “birthright” trip while denying native Palestinians the right to live in peace on their home land. The 2018 march was most definitely a peaceful march. Sadly israel decided to snipe handicapped people in wheelchairs 300 meters from the borders and have a competition who could cripple the most kneecaps. And israel shot medics of course.
Israel has denied every peaceful solution and tried to bypass the Palestinians with the Abraham accords.
The tide has already turned. You can complain about Hamas not being the perfect victim. They definitely didn’t do everything perfect. They shot many unarmed people. They did war crimes. But in the end they were not left with any other option than violent resistance.
Yes, what Israel did was wrong. I stated that. Is there an echo in here or can we not go two sentences without feigning moral indignation?
Hamas is definitely not the victim. They are fighting a proxy war for Iran and sacrificing Palestinians. Their goals are unrealistic. You think the tide is turning. I’m 38 and I’ve seen this song dance with Israel/Hamas for a long time. Until there is a third party intervention in the region nothing will change. Maybe the IDF will slow down for a few years until the next escalation and then it’s back to carpet bombing civilians in Gaza and the next generation of Lemmy users will come in and start the same empty rhetoric. Israeli occupation needs to be stopped, but it won’t be thanks to Hamas tactics.
You are literally one year older than Hamas. Hamas was created from victims of israeli oppression. They most certainly are victims, just ones that fight back. Maybe you like a bullied kid that keeps getting hit and never fights back more?
Hamas has been created because peaceful options were exhausted. Hamas is growing because Palestinians realize that there is no peaceful solution. Israels ideology is akin to the Nazis. They want to expand their lebensraum and ethnically cleanse Palestinians. There is no peace or diplomacy possible with a party driven by ethnic cleansing. Only resistance.
Until there is a third party intervention in the region nothing will change.
When israel loses international support everything changes. Just like it did for South Africa. Palestine is certainly not a unique case. Just the last Western settler colony left.
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