tchambers, to internet

Lots of good discussion on and going on. These four questions dominate my thinking:

  1. Can the ATProtocol really scale and federate? This is a very open question.

  2. Can BlueSky's ATProtocol moderation work at scale? Or even NOT at scale? Blurry still.

  3. Can the and improve its UX and UI experiences faster than the these first two things occur?

Lastly:

  1. How quickly do robust Fediverse/ATProtocol bridges emerge?

cc: @activitypubblueskybridge

austinha,
@austinha@mastodon.social avatar

@upstreamism @volkris @Pattyagray @tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge it’s true that this is their preferred method for federation is through BGS’s, but doesn’t preclude server-to-server federation.

as for big data, i think both systems are equally susceptible to negative externalities related to aggregation.

theintercept, to random
@theintercept@journa.host avatar

Who owns Bluesky? What’s the role of former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey? What’s Bluesky’s business model? And what prevents another Elon Musk from buying and destroying it 10 years down the line?

@micahflee answers some of your Bluesky questions. https://theintercept.com/2023/06/01/bluesky-owner-twitter-elon-musk/

FinchHaven,

@micahflee

"I think one big difference with atproto decentralization vs. Mastodon is that atproto is one huge flat network graph"

Host names and IP addresses for the top ten instances currently online and active, please

Oh

There aren't any

There is no decentralization

It's a marketing / PR play

Period

Compare and contrast:

https://fedidb.org/network

cc @vegetarianzombie @DemocracySpot @Mastodon

raccoon, to internet

🧵 [1 / 7]

When says "Protocols, not platforms", they intent two things:

  1. Grabbing people's attention by telling them what they want to hear.
  2. Presenting the AT Protocol as an alternative to to capitalize on the current hype around , the and decentralized social media in general.

The two protocols are not equal solutions for the same problem and, in fact, AT is not even a (communication) protocol to begin with.

austinha,
@austinha@mastodon.social avatar

@raccoon could you expand on this for me? i don’t see why implementing an based system would require their code and/or network.

stefan, to internet
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online avatar

I wonder if people threatening to block Facebook's/Meta's new ActivityPub-compatible social media network also automatically block emails coming from gmail.com.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Google

#facebook #meta #barcelona #SocialMedia #fediverse #ActivityPub

FinchHaven,

@stefan

"But again, what are the alternatives? I'd personally rather have them embrace ActivityPub than AT/Nostr."

One alternative would be for people to stop fluffing / and at every opportunity

Which has been pretty epidemic lately

Zuckerberg can have the

Let Zuck and Dorsey fight it out over who's doing what to whom and for what reason

csgordon, to fediverse

My $10 take on this vs dustup is: Maybe algorithms are a net good?

I've always scrolled chronologically—maniac that I am—so this isn't the issue I'm getting at. Looking at the unintended consequences of how design influences practice: I think I waste more time on Mastodon than I did on because I'm seeing the same couple dozen popular (unarguably relevant) posts reboosted x10000.

And this seems to be a consequence of "People are the algorithm" design.

codesmith,

@csgordon The tricky thing about traditional engagement algorithms is that it typically involves giving the algorithm writer as much of your data as possible. On most of Big Social that includes things like "likes", comments, and shares but also lots of "soft data." Like on TikTok, for example, where the amount of time you watch a video is taken into consideration of how much you may have liked that video.

From everything I've been able to tell, intends there to be an algorithmic layer where all sorts of algorithms can access data on any of the instances. Some of these algorithms may be nice and fun, and others may be intentionally rage-baiting people. And I don't think they have controls for users to say "hey don't include my stuff in the rage-bait algorithm but do include it in the cute puppies algorithm."

From my perspective, the gives way too much of users' data to algorithm writers. It does not feel like much of an improvement on Big Social.

csgordon,

@BrianJohnson @codesmith The term that pops out to me when I read about is some notion of a "marketplace for algorithms." Despite the homo economicus logic-jargon, if they can eventually enable users to make choices on how or which algorithms effect their feeds, they'll have design advantage.

ramsey, to php
@ramsey@phpc.social avatar

I decided to play around with the AT Protocol, so I put together a very rough & very early library to play around with the concepts.

If you're interested, check it out, & I'd love to have others contribute to round it out and make it full-featured.

Ultimately, I’d love this library to be a starting point for working on some / bridging.

https://github.com/socialweb-php/atproto

ramsey,
@ramsey@phpc.social avatar

More hacking on the in

I decided to split out the parsing into a separate library. It needs some clean-up, better error handling, and tests, but it works.
@activitypubblueskybridge

https://github.com/socialweb-php/atproto-lexicon

atomicpoet, to internet

What will be the tangible difference between the BGS that is making for AT protocol and a really well-connected relay operated with ?

The more I think about it, the more I don’t know.

darnell,
@darnell@one.darnell.one avatar

@atomicpoet Is it me, or does appear unnecessarily complex‽ At least for the foundational aspect of what is trying to do‽ might not be advanced, but it’s simple enough for the average non-tech person to understand (even if they do not understand the “how” of the ).

Reminds me of a scene from :

https://youtu.be/MCbXhsXYkPM

uniquitous, to internet

I've been doing some research on , nothing too deep. It piques my interest that they're trying to stand up an entire new federated protocol rather than just use (or even extend) ActivityPub. Not only does this make them incompatible with the Fediverse, it stands them in opposition to it with their own Fediverse-of-one. Remains to be seen if they'll be the VHS or the Betamax of this war.

rolle,
@rolle@mementomori.social avatar

@uniquitous @RogueLodge @hakirsch Here's the direct answer: https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987

Yes, they want more control. I personally think portability is just an excuse. I'm not holding my breath about them allowing people to 100% install BlueSky on their server, it's against their business model.

About the meta discussion, he's right about being "suspicious of Bluesky". They haven't given much reason not to be.

mastodonmigration, to climate
@mastodonmigration@mastodon.online avatar

Not sure how to say this delicately, but...

...since starting @ClimateMigration yesterday, the vast majority of Followers are from outside the US. Understand this is not a fun subject, but the disparity in attention to this topic is pretty striking.

#climate #ClimateScience #ClimateChange #ClimateCrisis #IceSheets #Greenland #Antarctica #PolarPortal #SeaLevelRise #carbon #netzero #FossilFuels #Fish #Marinelife #OceanWarming #iceextent #globaltemperatures #extremeweather #permafrost #seaice

FinchHaven,

@mastodonmigration

From what I've read of it, "controlling your algorithms" is you getting to choose radio buttons from a list of canned topics or you get a couple fields to enter keywords into, give it a name, save it, and it's "yours"

It's a / PR play

It is not going to make anyone into a coder bro, or give anyone the control of a coder bro, no matter how much the Bluesky fanbois suggest it will

@koteisaev @ClimateMigration

hirad, to fediverse
leewalton,

@hirad @clemenceau

But, the joy of the Fediverse is, if you don't like the moderation imposed on your current server, migrate to another server.

Fortunately, the relays aren't as eager to moderate. And even without relays, there are other forms of propagation.

The may also in time learn from the and it's approach to identity, which would potentially make server migration even easier.

jonny, to random
@jonny@neuromatch.social avatar

If I am ever feeling imposter syndrome and start doubting my ability to write a protocol, I can always take a look at , whose protocol is just this, a vague example of some JSON message object, and then a zillion nonbinding "enhancement possibilities" with no pretense at consistency.

idk why people are excited about this (ok, i do, everything in cryptobro universe is like this), it's literally just a traditional client-server architecture with the phrase "censorship resilient" stapled on top of it.

jonny,
@jonny@neuromatch.social avatar

i think it's very funny when ppl are like 'this thing is very decentralized' but the governance of that thing is literally a git repository with completely undefined processes for how and who gets to make a change to the thing.

like i know decentralization is basically meaningless but one would hope that it could still mean "not centralized to a single point" but i guess as I learned yesterday with 's placeholder DID method that resolves by quering a single domain, i guess not.

jalcine, to random
@jalcine@todon.eu avatar

Perhaps it's me and my interests in focusing on humans and not celebrity culture, but this doesn't read like a good thing.

From https://staging.bsky.app/profile/strangestloop.io/post/3juffrvd2yo2p but the source article is https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/jack-dorsey-bluesky-twitter-alternative-elon-musk-1234724924/

stefan,
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online avatar

@jalcine I have zero interest in another profit-driven (1) platform with questionable terms of service (2) and lenient attitude towards moderation (3), and one that uses the term "decentralized" very generously, considering its single instance is invite-only.

stefan,
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online avatar
tchambers, to random

So for @activitypubblueskybridge folks: BlueSky posted more details on its Federation plans: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture

austinha,
@austinha@mastodon.social avatar

@tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge spent my morning reading through the docs and was happy to see a little more info in this blog post about federation. [1/3]

Imoptimal, to internet

And you call this newsworthy?!

There's virtually no difference between 's and 's approach to feeding you with crap.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23739174/bluesky-custom-feeds-algorithms-twitter-alternative

FinchHaven,

@Imoptimal

The only difference is that and and the seem to be farming out algo content and legal liabilities to unknown/unnamed third parties

While and are still trapped with it in-house

jonny, to bluesky
@jonny@social.coop avatar

lmao taking a look at / 's implementation of , and I think they missed the "decentralized" part in their "placeholder" DID method.

Your domain's DNS entries just contain a (truncated) hash that then has to be resolved at plc.directory

recall that the DID method (plc) is part of the DID, so a different method (eg. web) is a different DID. to switch, you'd need to set an alsoKnownAs entry. plc only supports AT handles for alsoKnownAs.

https://github.com/bluesky-social/did-method-plc#did-resolution

jonny,
@jonny@social.coop avatar

/ is an extremely funny protocol that is explicitly designed to ensure that there are still powerful entities that own your attention. Sure! you can host your own personal data store, but everyone else will be getting your posts through a Big Graph Service that necessarily crawl all posts on the network, so it's actually mostly irrelevant.

https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture

mattjbones, to fediverse

Will we get adapters / relays for and maybe in the future? Anyone working on it? Sure Bluesky is VC backed etc but once they start down the journey of federation it feels like it could help reduce the “oh you’re oh BlueSky, sorry I can’t see your chat on Masto”

andypiper,
@andypiper@macaw.social avatar

@mattjbones there’s already SkyBridge that is doing the Mastodon API translation to enable cross-posting, I think. I’m unsure about the appetite it at the federation level. Potentially worth checking in on the efforts to see if is part of their thinking.

JimSwift, to random

I know Elon sucks. Anyone have any good suggestions for a Twitter porting service so Tweets (or BlueSky) posts can be cross posted?

ASP, (edited )
@ASP@masto.ai avatar

@Djromero @JimSwift

I will add some corresponding hashtags #crosspost #Twitter #bluesky #substack #atprotocol

and knowledgeable folks @atomicpoet @tchambers @activitypubblueskybridge

as well as some other media personalities who seem to be posting on multiple platform quite successfully

@juddlegum @atrupar @ChrisO_wiki
@w7voa @timkmak

Maybe this way someone with more knowledge can jump in and help

codesmith, to bluesky

Whether it's #BlueSky or #Meta, I just do not understand how anyone can possibly give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their intentions with federated networking. Like, it's not like the internet is new. We have countless examples of what billionaires do with their power. They never try to make things better for us. They always try to accumulate profit for them at the expense of anyone else. How many times do people need to be fucked over before they learn?

FinchHaven,

@codesmith

This is fast becoming boilerplate:

Embrace.

Extend.

Extinguish.

Do those words mean anything to people?

Why does anyone think anything about #Metabook / #Instadon and #Zuckerberg are going to suddenly become good Samaritans in the world?

#Meta #Pixelfed #Mastodon #Activitypub #ATProtocol

Dustin4, to internet

I know the /AT devs & Dorsey (mostly Dorsey) keep saying that “Bluesky” is essentially a proof of concept and will (if all works according to plan) cease to exist once blossoms.

But…

I don’t believe that. I feel the OG server & native clients will be cemented and always be somewhat of a default.

Dustin4,

The protocol creator shares their thoughts on

https://fiatjaf.com/ab1127fb.html

wjmaggos, to internet
@wjmaggos@liberal.city avatar

If is FOSS, can't we just start running our own servers? If works, can't somebody design a bridge? Is anybody working on this? What's broken about what they're doing that's preventing this? As a noob who thinks he understands open source and decentralization generally, I don't get how/why they're limiting invites.

unattributed, to internet

Sam's take on fundamental problems with the design and implementation of the & . @fediversenews

RE: https://urbanists.social/users/sam/statuses/110342847589273918

KimCrayton1, to fediverse
@KimCrayton1@dair-community.social avatar

As I’m observing conversations and efforts to build tomorrow’s technology related to and , I have concerns regarding how many non-white folx from marginalized and vulnerable communities will show up and for those who do, will they be welcomed?

Because tech development has a long history of the most privileged making decisions that maintain the status quo while inflicting harm on “others”

sharearea, to bluesky

90% of all threads will include :

  • Someone aggressively chastising you from a weird, obscure instance for even trying it

  • Some thirsty person you don't know asking for an code

  • A tech boi (with a account usually under 1 year old) mansplaining the differences between and

  • Someone dropping their BlueSky pagelink with no explanation on why they want you to follow them

  • Someone reminding the thread that anywhere is better than

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