What opened your eyes to what's happening in Palestine?

We’re a group of activists in a Western country where most have been brought up with either “Israel = good, Hamas = bad” or “It’s a sad, but unsolvable conflict between two equal sides”. The media heavily skewed to the Israeli perspective, and our politicians want to condemn protests in support of Palestinians. Therefore, unless you purposefully seek out information on what’s going on in Palestine, you won’t really encounter information about the occupation, the apartheid or the human rights violations. There are a lot of gaps in people’s information and understanding of the situation.

Atm there’s a lot of dehumanization, a lot of “Well, what can you do? Hamas keeps attacking Israel, what are they supposed to do?”. I think the Israel=Good is deep-rooted in a lot of westerners. I know it was in me.

We’ve asked ourselves and each other what finally broke through our previous perception, so we could see the inequality and realize that what’s happening is not right

One mentioned seeing a journalist in the back of an ambulance being handed a one-year-old that had passed

One mentioned seeing a video of a caring father saying goodbye to his little girl, kissing her eyes before she was wrapped in the materiale they wrap their dead. The father clearly in denial, smiling and wishing for her to wake up.

A big one for me was being told that it’s not an equal fight. It’s not two equally strong countries. It’s one country with a huge military, and another with barely any. Another was hearing about the human rights violations that’s been going on for decades - the fabricated water shortage, the children in Israeli jails.

I believe these are the moments we need to collect and present to those who are still wary on where they stand.

What broke through to you?

DarkGamer, (edited )
DarkGamer avatar

My experience was the opposite, I started out more sympathetic to Palestine until I learned more about the conflict. When I hear the UN and human rights agencies call Israel genocidal, an apartheid state, and ethnic cleansers, it made it seem like they are the bad guys until I read up on it. I no longer think these definitions are accurate, at least not how they are commonly used, (these definitions depend on treating a national group like an ethnic group and ignoring the fact that they remain violently belligerent, and that these same ethnic groups exist within Israel with full legal rights.)

Then I learned about the history of this conflict, and how Palestinian Arabs started the violence which led to their present situation, (most notably they instigated all the earliest massacres in Mandatory Palestine making a one-state solution impossible & starting the cycle of violence in earnest, declared war on Israel in '48 and lost, and intended to invade in the six-day war and were defeated.) When their forces were the victors they mortared civilians indiscriminately and drove every Jew from Jerusalem and the West Bank. Their sympathizers drove Jews from the Muslim world. When given free elections they elected Hamas, who is explicitly genocidal. I can't help but find it ironic when they accuse Israel of similar behaviors and plead for international actors to stop them.

I also take great issue with Palestinian behaviors and popular opinion regarding women's equality, LGBT rights, support of Intifada/genocide/denying rights to Jews, extreme religiosity, and treatment of Atheists and apostates. As a bisexual man I cannot support a regime that would throw me in prison or off a building for being who I am.

Today I see Palestine as a belligerent nation that was defeated overwhelmingly yet refuses to concede, is abhorrent when it comes to civil rights, and wants to continue endless terror attacks against Israel despite having no hope in winning militarily. They have instead chosen to keep fighting a fruitless war of terror against an enemy they cannot defeat, ensuring the cycle of violence continues indefinitely.

There are certainly valid criticisms of Israel as well, but their civil rights record is far better and their society more tolerant. I find the spike in support on the left for would-be genociders with a mediaeval mindset to be baffling and disheartening. They oppose what the left stands for.

A big one for me was being told that it’s not an equal fight. It’s not two equally strong countries

Why does the fact that this war is asymmetrical matter? Should they not retaliate because their retaliation would be too effective? At one time Israel was the underdog, and their cause hasn't changed. They want safety.

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

The sheer number of people, organizations, and national institutions that fell over each other in scrambling to support Israel/condemn Hammas set off my bullshit detector.

I’m still not taking sides, but the pro-Israel blitzkrieg is so over the top that I don’t accept it at face value. Someone’s trying to sell me something.

frauddogg, (edited )
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Sitting on the fence is siding with the oppressor; as the settlers taught me when I was little! Wonder why that’s suddenly not the case anymore when it’s Zionist colonizers getting pushed in.

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

This sort of empty, emotionally charged BS is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s a weak and childish form of rhetoric, and if that’s the best you’ve got then perhaps you should ask yourself why that is.

frauddogg, (edited )
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

See, that was a crackerish statement; and I don’t ‘debate’ settlers-- I condemn them. You’re not welcome in my inbox in any way, shape, or form if this is your take; 'cause it sounds to me like you’re fence-sitting a genocide. Backing the colonizers. You done snitched on yourself and who you side with.

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

We’ve now reached the name-calling phase. Classic.

frauddogg,
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

debate pervert

What did I just say, peckerwood? You. Are. Not. Welcome.

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/f809b94f-3de7-453a-9c9b-a30a2fdee343.png

You’re welcome. :)

frauddogg,
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Your ass should’ve stayed on Reddit.

Annoyed_Crabby,

Used to think Israel action is fair because Hamas been firing rocket in those building, but i’m not sure what and why this one particular incident that somehow started disillusion me. It’s the bombing of a high-rise housing Associated Press and Al Jazeera, Israel claimed it’s used by Hamas, but never provided any proof afterward.

Then a year later, the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh. Israel blame Palestine but later investigation found out that it’s the Israel force that did it.

Then i dig deeper and found out they kill children without reason, and it’s a well documented fact.

DarkGamer,
DarkGamer avatar

the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh

This was fucked up, worst part is they didn't punish or release the name of the soldier responsible.

TheBananaKing,

I’ve always stood with Palestine.

I’m genX, so South African apartheid was constantly on the news through my childhood. It doesn’t take much to see that Israel is just as shitty.

LSNLDN,

Try watching Novara Media, very informative and good analysis

arirr,

I’ve learned a lot more over time, especially recently. I never had a eureka moment though. Everyone deserves to live in peace and with basic human rights. I’ll always advocate for that. Specifically this conflict though is between a Democratic state who has done fucked up shit and a genocidal fundmentalist terrorist group. There is still a clearly much less bad side here.

ComradeR, (edited )

Talking with a LGBTQ muslim lady on Facebook 9 years ago. I was an islamophobe/Israel praising person and I had the lucky to find this chill and lovely woman who spent her time talking with me about islamophobia in general and the Palestinian situation as well, despite not being her obligation to do so. Thank you, Maryam for being a teacher for me!

Thisfox,

When it was explained to me 25+ years ago how Israel was invented, and so I did further reading. Religious divides are wrong in every way, and they are prevent neighbourly integration, so I decided I disagree with Israel as a concept, just as I disagree with all apartheid systems. This invasion just solidified my opinion.

And bias in the media? The news here in Oz yesterday covered an orphaned four-year-old being returned to her family just because she was American/Israeli. It left out the many other orphaned four-year-olds dead or dying or lying in pain and fear, without medical attention, because of Israels “action”. The ones killed and injured with weapons Israel is lying about using, such as phosphorus. The media are biased as all get out. Poor little kids didn’t have a chance.

Imgonnatrythis,

Westerner and was never brought up that one side was good or bad but that there was a failure of separation of church and state and this has led to a horrific unsolvable mess. Modern westerners are pretty sensitive to terrorism though and if you are a small religious sect attacking an established nation-state that has been an ally to western nations, yeah you become the greater evil in the eyes of most with a western upbringing. Other than the children, there aren’t a whole lot of innocents involved here. It’s many shades of grey. For those that have a voice in choosing leaders, I advise to lean against choosing any with strong religious convictions - even if they align with your own. Keep government secular.

snownyte,
snownyte avatar

I'm not taking any sides. I knew it was a stupid fucking holy war. Israel is pretty big as it is anyways and so they take out everything on a slice of land they dwarf?

Just more senseless suffering over belief. Fuck all of it.

m13,

It’s sad to witness this level of ignorance. You haven’t even done 10 minutes of research into how “Israel” came to be. You are complicit in genocide, and I hope you will remember this years from now.

snownyte,
snownyte avatar

Actually I won't remember this years from now. I barely even remember about caring for 9/11. I even sometimes forget that the Ukraine/Russia war is even happening.

Want to know why? Because I don't get myself too damn hung up on these things like you do. Cry me a river.

knfrmity,

I’m honestly not sure if there was a moment or a thing. Probably just the unending saga of one Israeli atrocity after another. At some point I just realized it wasn’t a complicated situation at all. Palestinians are a colonized people, Israel is a colonizing and occupying force. We’re talking about decolonization elsewhere, why not when the region in question is Palestine?

shinigamiookamiryuu,

I know you mean well, but although neither side is wholly anything I can advocate, even after seeing Palestine, if I had to choose, I side with Israel. I don’t care how persecuted you are, you simply do not kill random civilians. That would fall under indiscriminate escalation, which is different from just having a conflict with someone because each of the different levels of escalation, when surpassed, by definition mark the escalator as an antagonist (especially when not just in Israel; the Jewish committee in America have been threatened, so much that the unions are distancing themselves and multiple Jewish American leaders have been killed). And they did it on an Israeli holiday (which adds an extra challenge to them explaining why what’s going on isn’t antisemitic; one of their defenses is “Israeli citizens exist on stolen land, therefore they are thieves and the best punishment for thievery is death” which is almost a word-for-word paraphrasing of Axis Germany’s defense).

Israel in comparison, though they’ve been haughty in how they deal with their neighbors, have been operating under just that, a broken sense of arrogance. If you’re wondering, I do despise what Israel has done to Palestine, and the escalations by Palestine and Hamas don’t take away from the fact that Israel is guilty, enough that I question US involvement in Israel, especially when the US is already involved in India. I have always known what all three countries are doing to Palestine/Pakistan and it feels like they’ve been stabbing the bear for so long, like someone who acquires a garden but doesn’t nourish its flowers. But it’s not something I look at and think “look at how suffering they are, I fully understand why they did what they did now”. No I don’t. You don’t engage in an all-out assault, start a campaign of guerilla warfare which is more psychologically profound, drag Russia and North Korea onto your side just because “they’re you’re enemies’ enemies”, and lie when you do commit tragic accidents like the hospital bombings, which nobody doubts was Hamas’ and Palestine’s doing except them and half their peers (which I understand they cling to because it would foil their original plan of wanting the Saudis to step out of relations with Israel). As a technical LGBT member, I also don’t want to say I 100% trust Palestine to be in control anymore than Israel, as that’s an internal struggle all on its own.

flamingo_pinyata,

I had the opposite journey. I used to be more sympathetic to Palestinian side until this war started. Most people and media around me are pro-Palestinian.

But it’s not the whole story. This is a situation where no side is clean or innocent. So many Palestinians support Hamas that it’s hard to have sympathy. Yes, they lived under occupation for decades, but learned all the wrong lessons - how to be just as bad as Israel.

The fight is more evenly matched than you suggest. Israel may be winning militarily, but Hamas has the better media presence, and is winning hearts and minds of people around the world. Every dead Palestinian benefits Hamas more than it benefits Israel. They know it, and use it to the fullest extent.

CanadaPlus,

but Hamas has the better media presence

They’re officially declared a terrorist organisation in many places, and nobody argues with it (not unreasonably, but nobody’s going after the settlers for the same). They might be pulling forward a bit right now, but historically the Israeli lobby has been no joke in the West.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

Plenty of people argue that Hamas is not a terrorist organization.

Israel is relatively popular in the US, but younger Americans and many circles within academia are rabid antizionists, as I think you've seen. Many are calling to "globalize the intifada."

Hamas has not succeeded in making the average westerner think terrorism is good, but they have succeeded in normalizing terrorism, making more people think that "terrorism" is an Islamophobic term, making more people think that Israel does not have the right to exist, and emboldening antisemites on the right and left. Younger generations are more and more aggressively antizionist as time goes on.

Settler expansion is a problem that's more complicated and less exciting to people than the war. It makes sense that antizionists want us to focus on the war and just use settler expansion for color.

This study from the GWU Program on Extremism is an important read on the topic of Hamas's presence in the US over time.

CanadaPlus, (edited )

Yeah, I can cherry-pick morons off the internet too. That was an approximate “nobody”, there are of course some voices at the fringe. I mostly agree with OP, I just thought that one bit was an odd take.

As for the rest, terrorist is a meaningless word for non-state actors we don’t like. Hamas is not bad because they’re terrorists, but because they’re theocrats that want to eliminate the neighboring ethnic group. They are not alone.

Dsklnsadog,
@Dsklnsadog@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Don’t try to make sense. They wanna hear “choose-your-side” opinions

DrJenkem,
@DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube avatar

Hamas is a direct result of Israel’s actions. If Israel hadn’t carried out an apartheid for the last 70 years Hamas wouldn’t even exist. It doesn’t help that Israel directly funded Hamas in favor of secular liberation groups.

donuts, (edited )
donuts avatar

By that very same logic, what you're calling an "apartheid for the last 70 years" can be called a "direct result" of Palestine's actions. I'll explain...

Both the areas of Palestine and Israel were defined by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire who controlled the Levant (and more) for the hundreds of years prior. (We all know that Jews have been living in that area for millennia, and that Muslim Arabs have been living there since just after being violently conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate (the follow-up to Muhammad's conquest), ~650AD.) And just one day after the nation of Israel claimed independence a group of neighboring Arab Muslim country's, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, and the Holy War Army of the All-Palestine Protectorate, made the terrible decision to invade Israel, leading to the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948. These five Arab nations miscalculated, and Israel managed to not only fend off but fight back against them, pushing the borders of Gaza and the West Bank to roughly what they are today. (Before the 1948 Arab Israeli War, Palestine controlled almost have of the shared border with Egypt, half of the border with Lebanon, and Palestinian territories were effectively, but narrowly, connected.) After the war, the relationship between Israeli Jews and Arab Muslims hit a new low, and the victorious Israel expelled and relocated the Palestinian Arabs out of their newly acquired territory and into the areas that they hold today.

Long story short, in 1948 a coalition of Arab Muslim countries including Palestine, believed that they could conquer and destroy Israel. They tried and failed, and after a 10 month war, Israel not only defended themselves but pushed Palestinian territory back.

We can go back and back and back in this cycle of violence in which both sides are guilty of waging war and committing crimes against humanity. But it really does take two to tango, and you'd have to be either biased or stupid to pick a side (other than the side of the innocent).

(By the way, I'm not arguing with the fact that Israel, especially Netenyahu's government, has been backing and propping up Hamas. That's correct, and it shows that both Israel and Palestine are currently being run by the most extreme warmongering governments possible. They both wanted war, and now they've got it.)

DrJenkem,
@DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube avatar

Wait, is the fact that Palestine and other Arab countries weren’t cool with colonizers moving into Palestine and establishing a new country on their homeland supposed to be some “gotcha”? Like no shit, I’m sure the Palestinians were just as happy with their colonizers moving in as the native Americans were.

Violent resistance to colonizers in no way justifies the colonizing. Nor does it balance the scales to some sort of “both sides”. Violent resistance is an unfortunate but nearly inevitable consequence to colonizing. Most people aren’t going to welcome the colonizers, nor should they.

donuts, (edited )
donuts avatar

colonizers moving into Palestine and establishing a new country on their homeland

You're being reductive. Is it ignorance or bias?

Jews are historically native people to the region. Ancestors of both Israel and Palestine have been living in the Levant for thousands of years, alongside other tribal people: Israelites (sound familiar?), Philistines (hmm?), Judah (oh!?), Canaanites, Samaritans, Phoenicians, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_ancient_Levant

Long before the concept of nations and hard borders, long before the concept of colonialism, long before the violent conquest of the Islamic Caliphates, the native tribal people of Israel, Judah, and Philistine occupied an area that can only be considered their collective native homeland.

So here's a little history quiz: how did Arab Muslims wind up living in Gaza anyway?

Maybe they were invited by the native people of Israel, Judan, and Philistia?

supposed to be some “gotcha”?

No "gotcha". Just objective facts and history.

Read up, learning is free and it'll be good for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Violent resistance is an unfortunate but nearly inevitable consequence to colonizing

Killing women and children in cold blood isn't "resistance", it's cowardly terrorism. Historically ignorant and largely baseless claims of colonization don't justify the type of brutal barbaric terrorism that we saw on October 7th. What's more, terrorism hasn't proven to be a very good or effective strategy for making life in Gaza better, it's only made things dramatically worse for people there.

The "unfortunate but nearly inevitable consequence" to putting a genocidal terrorist organization like Hamas in control of your people is that they will ultimately do things that provoke a war. Hamas wanted a fight, Netenyahu wanted a fight, they both wanted each other, and now they have a war. It's not a mystery.

Hamas war criminals should release their hostages, surrender themselves to the IDF, and give Gaza back to the Palestinian people who they have been autocratically governing for nearly 20 years.

Likewise Israel should release the people who they've held without charges and due process, they should respect the national borders that they themselves established by pulling back "settlers" living in Palestinian territory, and they should rid their government of right-wing warmongers like Netenyahu and Ben-Gvir.

frauddogg,
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Americans do not want to think about the prospect of Hamas being a response rather than an an origin stimulus-- because it reminds them of what they had to do to prevent response in this country, and what they may have to attempt again in coming days

raunz,
@raunz@mander.xyz avatar

Hamas has the better media presence? While Israel is doing a bad job I don’t think that’s the case at all. Hamas isn’t winning heats, but Palestinians are.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

Hamas's goal is not to make you think they're the good guys, their goal is to eradicate Israel and the Jewish people, and/or to die trying. They've been turning sentiment in their favor.

Diabolo96, (edited )

Dude literally said that everyone he knows was siding with the genocided people side so he choose to side with one doing the genocide ,bruh…

So many Palestinians support Hamas that it’s hard to have sympathy.

That’s like saying Vietnamese deserves what US troops dis to them because they supported their freedom fighters.

My people too sided with their freedom fighters and were massacred for it. It was the same with every colonized country. You’re literally saying they don’t have the right to fight for their freedom.

The fight is more evenly matched than you suggest

So Isreal which is funded with billions and billions from USA who also literally bully anyone from trying to stop the genocide being committed by ‘Israel’, an apartheid state whose crimes are so horrible that despite the immense amount of propaganda they pour everywhere, peoples around the world still sided with palestinians, the fight as you call it or more precisely the one sided genocide is even. Okey.

Varyk,

Two things:

  1. two different Israeli tourists told me that Palestinians were animals during the course of different conversations at different times

2).I saw Five Broken Cameras

Those both happened at least a decade ago, and I’ve been pretty vocal about my condemnation of IDF violence since that point, and it’s been insane to have gotten s*** about supporting Palestine for so many years and then in the last few months see a complete reversal of the American perspective.

I’ve actually had someone reach out to me to ask some clarifying questions now that the hospital bombings and IDF invasions happening for decades are actually being reported on and there’s no way to ignore the overwhelming military and cultural advantage israel has in this conflict.

cheesymoonshadow,
@cheesymoonshadow@lemmings.world avatar

two different Israeli tourists told me that Palestinians were animals

One of the local businesses I frequent is owned by an Israeli man and he was telling me they all deserve to die, all of them, men, women, and children. He believes the world needs to be rid of all Palestinians.

Varyk,

I had been hanging out all night with a few israelis who were really nice and cool, and they were kind of hippies and were telling me how it was so cool how traveling made them feel so open with other people, and how the world was one, so I was like well but it’s kind of difficult with Palestine right?

And immediately one of them said “well not Palestine, Palestinians are animals.”

Another one you could tell by her face knew he shouldn’t have said that, and explained to me that nothing would ever work out Palestine because they were completely unreasonable and she paraphrased what he said but in less explicit language.

frauddogg, (edited )
@frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The minute it kicked back off. I’ve always considered Israel to be a standard-bearer of settler-colonialism-- it’s why I wasn’t able to listen to Borgore after a while-- but I never critically investigated why Hamas needed to exist until I stopped and started comparing how similar Palestine’s plight is to what my community has already been through.

Our neighborhoods bombed. Our fathers murdered in the street. Our children funneled from school to prison. The only reason Amerika doesn’t look like Israel, doesn’t take casualties like Israel, doesn’t fight an armed resistance like Israel, is because Amerika either imprisoned, murdered, or both regarding anyone who could have stepped up to lead an armed resistance in my community. The minute that all clicked for me, I couldn’t even think about condemning any part of the Palestinian joint coalition; ESPECIALLY not Hamas. Shit, Black and Indigenous folk need a Hamas at this point.

knfrmity,

That shared experience of oppressed peoples everywhere is really key for me.

As I see right now, the main difference between the USian and Israeli colonial projects is time, and maybe scale.

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