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GuyDudeman, in Sovereign citizen receives mail, has opinions.
@GuyDudeman@lemmy.world avatar

The MDHS State Disbursement Unit is the Child Support department. Dude went nuts because he doesn’t want to pay child support. What a POS.

BonesOfTheMoon,

One of their biggest things they’re always trying to do is “discharge” theur child support.

frickineh,

Yeah they are. But fun fact, garnishments and liens work just as well without an INTERNATIONAL TREATY and a surprising number of these loons still work and own stuff.

Tar_alcaran,

Yes but they’re their own country, and the USA needs to form a treaty to have say in their business, unless they’re “travelling” or receiving welfare or benefit in some other way

JustZ,

The reality is that they are not bodies politic, have no demos, and every person everywhere ever is subject to the law of the jurisdiction in which they are present.

AA5B,

And I imagine thEy had no contract with the child in question

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

“I don’t have anything to do with that kid! Why should I have to pay child support?”

Unfortunately I know people like that in real life, who don’t seem to understand that the child support is largely because they want nothing to do with their kid

aidan,

What if before birth they prove that they wanted the child aborted?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

If they are forced to be pregnant with it, that’s their choice.

Have you ever spent nine months with a pregnant woman? They don’t do it because it’s fun.

KevonLooney,

That’s not how it works.

aidan,

Of course not, I’m asking if that’s how it should work?

KISSmyOS,

No, it should not. When two consenting adults have sex without protection, the resulting pregnancy shouldn’t be the sole problem of the woman.

aidan,

She is the only one granted the choice to end the responsibility. The father is left with massive financial responsibility for 18 years, that the mother had the choice to prevent. This even occurs in cases of rape.

KISSmyOS,

An abortion is a medical procedure that has a high risk for the woman, and carries with it the trauma of ending a human life.
Yes, she is the only one granted the choice to end it. Because “it” happens within her body.

aidan,

An abortion is a medical procedure that has a high risk for the woman, and carries with it the trauma of ending a human life.

Should the mother or father be given custody assuming both parents are equally fit and willing? Should the father be able to say either put the child up for adoption or not pay child support? Obviously this lack of choice could happen to the mother too, but she had 9 months of another choice.

Malfeasant,

If you can’t take the heat, better stay out of the kitchen…

Timecircleline,

Child support isn’t meant to punish a parent that’s no longer in the child’s life. Even if thats the end result, it’s meant to support the child.

Because of the bodily autonomy argument there won’t be true equality surrounding pregnancy because nobody has (or should have) weight of decision of whether to carry the child except for the person who does so.

But if a child is brought into the world as a result, it needs to be supported. And that’s the responsibility of the parents- willing or not.

I think that if male birth control becomes safe and available it will be much closer to equality.

fkn, (edited )

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. In several ways. I see several people arguing with you ineffectively because they assume you are arguing in good faith or have a coherent position… Neither of which I am convinced you possess.

In the US (and most of the world) it is a fundamental right of bodily autonomy that any individual is not subjected to any forced medical situation in the support of another person’s life, regardless of that person’s age, gender or relationship with the other person. Even if we agreed on when personhood happens (I assume we disagree on it) at no point must one person give up their bodily rights for another. If you provide a special case for pregnancy then we are in a discussion of if your inconsistent belief structure is valid.

aidan,

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. In several ways. I see several people arguing with you ineffectively because they assume you are arguing in good faith or have a coherent position…

You’re free to disagree with me, but everything I say on here is in good faith.

In the US (and most of the world) it is a fundamental right of bodily autonomy that any individual is not subjected to any forced medical situation in the support of another person’s life, regardless of that person’s age, gender or relationship with the other person.

Yep, I agree.

Even if we agreed on when personhood happens (I assume we disagree on it) at no point must one person give up their bodily rights for another.

I have no strong opinion on when personhood happens, I simply don’t know.

If you provide a special case for pregnancy then we are in a discussion of if your inconsistent belief structure is valid.

A special case for what? You never expressed your disagreement with me.

fkn,

Your inability to follow the argument is probably the problem.

aidan,

Okay, then tell me what I missed

fkn,

Why should I repeat myself?

aidan,

Because clearly I failed to understand what you said, so rephrasing could enable that.

starman2112, (edited )
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

If they were going to want the baby aborted, they shouldn’t have had sex without a condom. You don’t get to cum inside someone and then tell them what to do with it. Your jizz, your problem.

aidan,

So, do you oppose abortion in general?

expr,

Obviously not. They’re saying that the person that gets pregnant gets to decide whether or not they want to abort. It’s not the decision of the sperm donor.

aidan,

So, a mother has a choice to opt out of paying for a child if they can’t afford it. But a father is given the same choice.

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

The father made that choice when he decided it was a good idea to fuck without protection. You don’t get to undo mistakes you made by telling someone else to undergo a medical procedure they don’t want. It doesn’t matter if you realized your mistake the next day and started telling them to use plan B. You can not want a baby all you want, but the only thing that matters is, did you willingly play your part in making it?

thecrotch,

The father made that choice when he decided it was a good idea to fuck without protection.

I agree with your basic argument, but this point in particular is dumb for 2 reasons

  • Unless the father is a rapist, they both decided to have unprotected sex
  • Condoms fail sometimes. Wearing one significantly reduces the likelihood of pregnancy but it’s hardly a pancea. Any competent sex-ed teacher should have explained that

That being said, there’s no ethical way to give a man control after conception and allowing them to bail on child support eould be detrimental to society. Single mothers have it hard enough already.

splicerslicer,

The mother clearly has a bigger stake in pregnancy than a father and I can’t believe this needs to be explained. Yes, women get to choose if they want to be mothers for a variety of complicated and nuanced reasons. For men they can simply choose to not raw dog a woman. Obviously it’s different if they were raped or their semen was stolen but those are much more rare cases.

aidan,

And, generally, the women also have the exact same choice. Yet they are given much more of a choice post pregnancy test.

expr,

Yes. Everyone should have autonomy over their own bodies, especially when it’s a matter of something as major as pregnancy. Pregnancy is a medical condition, and the only person that should (legally) have any input in medical decision making for pregnancy is the person that’s pregnant.

starman2112, (edited )
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them. If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it. The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they’re having sex.

aidan,

What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them.

Yes, but when one person has the choice to not have a child, the other person can express their desire to not raise the child.

If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it.

Why?

The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they’re having sex.

Why?

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar
  1. You can express your desire to not raise a child all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that you made a choice that led to that child being born.
  2. You both have to pay for it because you both made a decision to make it. Both parents have an obligation to provide support, and if one parent wants nothing to do with the kid, that support must be financial. “Why?” Because that kid costs money to raise, and the alternative is the state paying for your decision not to wrap it up. Like hell do I want my taxes paying for your one night stand.
  3. Because you can’t make medical decisions for someone else, your one and only opportunity to opt out of being a father is while you’re having sex. The only person who gets to decide whether or not to have an abortion is the pregnant party. If they opt not to, but you really, really want them to, then that sucks for you, but refer back to point 2.
thecrotch,

My parents were using a condom lmao. They’re not perfect.

Garbanzo,

I only agreed to get my dick wet, your child support contract is invalid

IWantToFuckSpez, in Sovereign citizen tried to pay for their car with sovcit methods (letter in the comments)

Bet repo agents and bounty hunters love the sovcit movement.

sxan,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

That’s got to be a fun job. Use the taser every time they use SovCit terminology, like a drinking game. See how many points you can rack up.

Shit, I may have found a new calling.

imPastaSyndrome,

You definitely can’t use a Taser as a repo and you have to be afraid of nutcases with weapons

shyguyblue,

New theory: They started it. Vertical integration for the win!

SinningStromgald,

Now that’s a fucking conspiracy theory!

Lifecoach5000, in Sovereign citizen receives mail, has opinions.

“I DO NOT HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY WITH YOU” is about to be my go to line to get out of uncomfortable situations.

Anticorp,

It’s a pretty weird claim. They think they are their own country? Okay then… Do they realize that foreign countries can be taken to war against their wishes? I hope so, because that’s probably going to happen to a lot of these people.

Neato,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

I love this assertion by them. Because it’s them saying they are an independent nation. But they are living on or within the US’s declared borders and do not have a treaty as the American Indians do. Therefore they’d qualify as invaders or secessionist and the US military/immigration authorities should have jurisdiction to prosecute them. Afterall, this Sovereign Citizen is currently abroad in another country.

ForestOrca,
ForestOrca avatar

You have to say it ALL CAPS and in RED INK. LoL

pearsaltchocolatebar,

I still like, “YOU’RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR”

NegativeInf,

“THIS IS NOT MY BEAUTIFUL WIFE”

SpaceNoodle,

“THAT’S MY PURSE”

pearsaltchocolatebar,

“I DON’T KNOW YOU”

dalekcaan,

“I think you will find that I do not have testicles.”

“SHE BLUFFING! FINISH HER!”

GentlemanLoser,

My God what have I done

Bo7a,

A lovely chinese dinner, you say?

KnightontheSun,

Succulent.

Bo7a,

True. True.

I’ll leave it up to own my shame.

KnightontheSun,

No worries, but I just could not let it lie there! ;)

Zipitydew,

Telling my boss this next time I’m voluntold to fix another failing project.

proper, in Sovereign citizen is confused.
@proper@lemmy.world avatar

so they have the “right” to rack up debt then rip-off the credit providers? they just think they found a “loophole” to steal?

rickyrigatoni,

just do it the actual legal way and declare bankruptcy like the rest of us 🙄

ImplyingImplications,

A lot of the times these sovcit types of people try and “pay” their debts using a secret bank account the US government provides. I think in this case he’s trying to argue that since he never signed a physical contract, he doesn’t need to pay his debts. He is seemingly unaware that contracts can be proven by actions. If he used the card, he accepted the terms of payment.

BonesOfTheMoon,

They think, and I am being serious, that the government has a secret bank account created in their name at birth worth 2 million dollars, and this is a “trust” they can use to pay for things by writing nonsense documents to various officials. They think that money was outlawed by the US government and that you can only pay in real silver.

cmbabul,

Wait what!? If they think money is outlawed by the US government how do they explain let alone go to the grocery store? And who do they think issued all the money that exists everywhere

Maalus,

It’s simple. Other people don’t know that money is outlawed and they use it. So a sovciv will use it too, and when asked to pay, they try to weasel out by saying money isn’t real.

proper,
@proper@lemmy.world avatar

ah ok thanks, that makes sense. Not like how things in reality make sense but it makes sense they would think that and then behave the way they do as a result.

rtxn,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcxZFmKrxR8 The rabbit hole goes fucking deep.

partial_accumen,

They think, and I am being serious, that the government has a secret bank account created in their name at birth worth 2 million dollars,

I have so many questions!

Someone told them they got $2m, they’ve never seen anyone officially acknowledge this, they’ve never seen any of their friends that believe the same thing produce anything close to proof this exist…and they believe this?

Why $2million? Why not $1million or $1billion?

If the government outlawed money, wouldn’t the $2 million also be outlawed or at least worthless?

If they think the government outlawed money, what do they call all the currency we’re carrying around and why do they even want it?

I don’t expect you to have answers. I understand you’re reporting the crazy, not a believer in it.

BonesOfTheMoon,

From this article: www.isdglobal.org/explainers/sovereign-citizens/

"Financial schemes Tax protest and financial schemes form an important part of Sovereign Citizens’ acts of resistance. One of such practices is known as the ‘redemption scheme’. It rests on the assumption that the U.S. government uses its citizens as collateral to pay off foreign debts.

According to this theory, the government uses people’s strawmen identities to set up secret trusts in their names that hold hundreds and thousands of dollars. Some Sovereign Citizens believe that by filing certain IRS forms or by signing bills and tax forms with notices like “Accepted for Value”, they can access and spend the money in their secret account. Other financial schemes include efforts aimed at evading state and federal income taxes, hiding assets or eliminating debts. Most of these activities are considered fraudulent and result in bank, tax or wire fraud charges. "

The 2 million part seems to be a randomly assigned number but it’s what I see them claim again and again.

The rest of your questions I can’t answer except to say sovcits sure do use money when it suits them.

Pons_Aelius, in The judge seemed annoyed at sovereign citizen (more in comments).

Holy shit.

The legal genius has spent several weeks in jail because of traffic infringement?

What an special person they are.

echodot,

And he still has to face punishment for the traffic infraction.

BonesOfTheMoon,

“The judge seemed annoyed”. You don’t say.

theodewere,
theodewere avatar

it's not like he interrupted the judge - wait, no he actually admitted doing that, too..

itsgroundhogdayagain, in Sovereign citizens have magical thinking around words and their meaning and it's mind boggling.

This is like Billy Madison’s answer to the Industrial Revolution question.

ChicoSuave,

I do feel dumber after reading it

Rhynoplaz,

…and may God have mercy on your soul.

Pons_Aelius, in Sovereign citizen Facebook parents are batshit.

I feel so fucking sorry for that child.

randoot, in Narcissistic conservative parent Facebook is wild

patriarchy : social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line

“They don’t value patriarchy”. It’s not meant to be a positive thing you idiot.

someguy3, (edited )

They can’t say “Christian values” anymore, so they’ve replaced it with “family values”, and in this case the more brazen “patriarchy” (which probably came from bashing feminism) and various scattering of “values”.

EdibleFriend,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

It doesn’t even have horses

Buddahriffic,

It’s one of those “if you won’t respect me as an authority, I’m going to treat it like you aren’t respecting me as a person”. It all comes back to authoritarianism and maintaining hierarchies. Conservatives believe someone must be in charge and what that person says goes, and then an extension to that is they want to approve of who is in charge and do not want to follow a woman or minority.

YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH, in Narcissistic conservative parent Facebook is wild

It’s wild how these people just can’t fathom that they are the problem.

A_Random_Idiot,

I guarantee you within 5 minutes of seeing/talking to his kids, he mentions trump and dives hard into his extreme right politics.

But its everyone else that has “Trump Derangement Syndrome”, not him and his incessant need to make it the center of his life.

TheFriar,

I mean, he admits to not being there when his kids were growing up. And he spends the time talking about his offspring’s family and their “values.” They have the kids, so they’re obviously willing to keep tolerating him if the kids get to see him enough that they are “the light of his life” or whatever. But he’s still talking about how he doesn’t know if he can stand to have a further relationship with his kid (that he wasn’t around to raise) and their spouse. Because politics.

So…I don’t think this guy’s probably on the right side of any issue they have.

Supervisor194,
@Supervisor194@lemmy.world avatar

But he will always love his grandchildren, because surely they won’t ever espouse opinions he doesn’t like… right???

A_Random_Idiot,

grandchildren are still young enough to be cowed into only saying what grampy wants to hear.

When they get older he’ll turn against them too.

Daft_ish,

It’s a weird mix of societal norms that he is pulling from. Just wish these people would find their identity from within and not externally.

orbitz,

Every once in awhile these sort of posts make me introspective, they say almost exactly the same as my opinion about what I think of far right conservatives. Then I remember I’m not the one oppressing people and want to accept everyone as long as they don’t bring intolerance.

stoly,

This is one thing that I find very odd: you’ll see posts like this of obvious pieces of shit but the moment you start talking about being intolerant on intolerant people, or of being tired of caring about this sort of thing, you’re suddenly a worse per son than the actual bigot.

CarbonIceDragon,
@CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social avatar

Something to remember I think is that just because people on both sides of an issue talk the same way about the other side, does not inherently mean that both or neither have a point.

BonesOfTheMoon,

No estranged parent ever does.

(For anyone that wants to know more: www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/)

Maeve,

Can confirm, wrt the boundaries portion. I had to have a discussion with the parent with whom I maintain minimal contact, for reasons. They managed to throw in a wild accusation and went absolutely bat guano, demanding I inform a payee of one of her checks that did not show up in the mail that she would be deducting the stop payment fee from the next check. I said I would not, because there is no legal provision for that, and they sent me a screenshot of their bank's stop payment notice suggesting she talk with the payee, circled and highlighted in paint, to inform me, and I copied the text to paste it here:

You’re out of line.  Its not my fault they can’t keep up with their mail. Someone has to pay the fees and I’m not paying!

Crashumbc,

That’s how the religious indoctrination at the base of this works. By design you NEVER question the church. And the Conservative GOP leadership has tapped into that reality distortion field. They could literally tell these people to commit murder and they would…

It’s Nazi level propaganda scary.

OsaErisXero,

They could literally tell these people to commit murder and they would...

They did and they do.

someguy3,

I’m just starting my deeper learning about narcissism, but I think one trait is literally being unable to admit fault. It’s how their brain works.

tacosanonymous,

It’s crazy. I know I’m part of the problem too. These people need something other than factual rebuttals to bring them back into the fold but I’m le tired. I can’t do it anymore. But that means the system is working as intended and we must strive to dismantle it.

bostonbananarama,

I’m le tired

Well, have a nap…then fire the missiles!!

(hoping you were making this reference, or this comment is going to be super weird)

youtu.be/Pk-kbjw0Y8U?si=zWvWdQKsOsLiubEu

Windex007, in Sovereign citizen can't get the landlord to see fake payment is real.

If I were a landlord I’d cut them a deal where they pay me in cash but I refund them 200% in 1099A forms every month for free infinite money.

Let them deal with cashing them instead of me, problem solved.

Wogi,

1099a is used to report the acquisition of property. Like in a foreclosure.

The renter tried to foreclose on the landlord for the property he was renting.

Windex007,

In other posts I’ve seen, sovcits believe that each us citizen has a trust held by the government, which can be “accessed” by claiming it, or portions of it, through a 1099a, which is the root of their obsession w/ 1099a. (As far as I understand their underlying beliefs)

BonesOfTheMoon, in The judge seemed annoyed at sovereign citizen (more in comments).
superduperenigma,

any advice from someone more experienced & knowledgeable would be much appreciated

If only there was some professional that could provide such legal knowledge and experience

The courts tried to appoint me a public pretender again while I was incarcerated, I declined

🤦

BonesOfTheMoon,

My lawyer friend LOVES prosecuting sovcits. Has won them all.

Sludgehammer,
@Sludgehammer@lemmy.world avatar

As I understand it the problem is upholding the conviction. I mean… it’s hard to argue that a intellectually challenged individual who represented themselves based on legal advice from a conman had adequate legal representation.

echodot,

I’m pretty sure “your honor I’m an idiot” is not actually a defense. Especially in the absence of any other defense. I.e. a reason to drive without a license.

Lolman228,

That's like punting an infant across the street and saying that you "won the fight."

qarbone,

They’d be a pretty shit lawyer if they couldn’t. They’re playing make-believe in a place that has hard rules. Unless their defence includes some kind of “insanity” plea, I don’t know how any of them have any “victory against the courts” stories to tell.

ImplyingImplications,

any advice from someone more experienced & knowledgeable would be much appreciated

Stop! You’ve violated the law! Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence.

Sludgehammer,
@Sludgehammer@lemmy.world avatar

Okay I know what to do from here.

First, reverse pickpocket poison apples into all of the guards inventories, then hang out in their barracks until they all eat poisoned apples, once the guards all die steal their stuff and sell it to the town merchants. Now not only are you richer, but the town’s guards can’t arrest you on account of being dead.

The best part is that when the guards eventually respawn they keep the poisoned status and will quickly die again, with a new loadout of guard equipment!

WarmSoda,

Ahh the old Oblivion trick. Gets’em every time

TheFriar,

No, no, no. I don’t want that kind of advice. Tell me the secret to not having to deal with any of this and getting a bunch of money for free.

BonesOfTheMoon, in The judge seemed annoyed at sovereign citizen (more in comments).
PorradaVFR,

Narrator: he was, in fact, a criminal and did, in fact, make things worse for himself. He did not, however, gain any wisdom from this experience.

NutellaIs4Lvrs, in Not Facebook but sure bud.

I’m not sure about other states, but the one I live in usually requires two brain death tests at least 6 hours apart and by different MDs that have to be credentialed to perform brain death testing. They also have(and usually perform) an apnea test where they turn the ventilator off for a set period of time and see if the patient initiates any breathes on their own as well as measuring blood gases before and after the procedure. Finally, they often use an injected nucleotide to measure blood flow to the brain, taking multiple images of several angles to confirm that there is no blood flowing to the brain.

If the person was on any paralytics, they have to be cleared from the system before testing can begin as well as all labs such as sodium, potassium, etc. and body temperature must be within normal parameters to begin.

If all those things are confirmed, the person is legally declared dead with an official time of death and only then can the legal next of kin be approached for organ donation.

Basically, this person is bonkers(as we all know) and organ donation is highly regulated.

BonesOfTheMoon, in Sovereign citizen did not have a good outcome by trying the coupon method.
BolexForSoup,
BolexForSoup avatar

Jfc the delusion

snooggums,
snooggums avatar

The thing is, they all read like people joking around on the internet. Like if someone pretended to be a sovereign citizen on some lemmy shitpost sub I would expect those kinds of comments as humorous playing around. It just boggles my mind how some people really seem to be serious when they sound like the snarkiest internet trolls.

admiralteal,

I am 100% sure that kind of shitposting is how this all started. Same as Qanon, the Proud Boys, or so many other things.

Doesn't change the real, negative consequences it has brought on the world.

Texas_Hangover,

Idiots, they forgot the red text has to be at a 45° angle.

bingbong,

Only if you live in Raleigh, North Carolina

Smh my head

csm10495,
@csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

I don’t get it. Are they more or less saying to bill the CFO for their own bill? How does that even make sense in their heads?

papalonian,

I’ll try to explain this as quickly and correctly as I can

Sov cits believe their name does not represent themselves, but actually a stock/ commodity that belongs to the US government

They believe this stock to be valued at GDP/population

These “coupons” are instructions to whatever entity they don’t want to pay, informing said entity that they should request the funds from aforementioned stock under the Sov Cit’s name.

I don’t think these people think they’re trying to scam anyone or get away with “not paying”. They genuinely think that every citizen has an equal share of the US’s GDP and can just use it like cash.

KingJalopy,

Isn’t this country like severely in a massive amount of fucking debt??

papalonian,

Yes, but a country being in debt does not translate to a negative GDP

KingJalopy,

Ahhh, I see. I know as much about economics as these idiots know about, well anything. Thanks!

papalonian,

No worries.

In very simple terms (explained by someone who also doesn’t have an amazing grasp on macroeconomics), a country’s GDP is the value of everything they produced for a given time period. So a country can owe a shit ton of money to other countries and will pretty much always have a positive GDP. When people say there was a negative GDP they probably mean it went down from last year.

Which means these people’s “logic” essentially grants them infinite money. The US economy could be in shambles, GDP decreasing every year, but they would somehow always be entitled to tens of thousands of dollars.

shyguyblue, in Sovereign citizen tried to pay for their car with sovcit methods (letter in the comments)

I’ve noticed that these companies are starting to call out the sovCit scam by name, so it seems they’ve had a gut-full as well…

Facebones,

I know it’s a play as old as time but I’m sure the shit EXPLODED in the internet age. I’d bet most companies have a form letter at this point.

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