@elduvelle I mean, what is there that Windows does, that Linux can't as far as just features go?
The main reason why Linux has been struggling in the desktop space, is simply that there are many companies that don't care to support Linux, and as such you just get a plain more painful experience trying to do the same things.
It's not really Linux's fault, but rather that of a self perpetuating monopoly. If enough people actually make the jump eventually, this can look VERY different.
@mezz@elduvelle To El Duvelle's q, I think there's a simpler explanation. Lots of folk tried to make Windows-like Linux distributions, but they never stick. If a user is given a Windows-y solution and a bunch of Linux-y solutions for the same task, there will typically be a Linux-y option that will be preferred. Over time, people will switch to it, and the Windows-y option will struggle keeping maintainers, making it even less competitive, until it eventually fades away.
@locha I doubt that the ~70% of people who use windows (compared to 3% or so using linux) would prefer a “linux-y” option to a “window-y” option. Especially if by “linux-y” you mean using command line instructions. The large majority of these people don’t even know what the command line is. @mezz
@elduvelle@mezz Well, they are Windows users; they're not really the ones making that choice. And they're probably not contributing to the code either.
@locha yes.. oh so you meant that the people who tried these Windows-like distributions and ended up abandoning them were all prior Linux users? I thought we were talking about “average people” so most of them would be Windows users. @mezz
@elduvelle@mezz No, I think given enough time, people who use Linux distros, even if they also Windows users, will slowly drift away from using Linux as if it was Windows, not because Windows features are necessarily inferior, but just because Linux has an ecosystem that often makes it possible to have several options. I think that partly because it was me and my friends' experience.
By the way, I wrote that before realizing it's probably not the kind of situation you are thinking about.
And indeed, in some of those cases, there might be something more nefarious going on. For instance, writing drivers for Linux is often because often devs don't have hardware specs.
@locha Is it on Win 11? I hate it… when you see the direction Windows is taking that’s also why I wish there was an easy to switch to Linux alternative.. @mezz
@elduvelle been thinking about this over the last day, I still find it a weird question. You could say the same about macOS, for example, why doesn't that exactly do what windows does?
@dirkdierickx you could… but more than 70% of computers don’t use MacOS, they use Windows. Clearly the large majority of people prefer Windows. I thought that one of the goals of Linux was to be used by more people. So why isn’t there at least one distribution of Linux that is exactly like Windows?
Still, I agree: why not also extend the question to MacOS, there are also more computers with MacOS than with Linux so why isn’t there one distribution that mimics MacOS? They’re both Unix based right, so it should be even easier to make it?
@carla that’s fine of course, the advantage is that there would still be all the other distributions.
I like many things about windows and would prefer to use a non-profit, user-respecting version of it if it existed.
@carla time… I waste so much time doing even minor things in Linux. That’s mostly because I’m used to the windows way of things of course. But also some things don’t work as easily on Linux (I tried Ubuntu). I made a quick and incomplete list there: https://neuromatch.social/@elduvelle/112244187699065839
I’d just want a Linux distribution that works like Windows so there is no learning curve involved to use it.
@elduvelle If "exactly" means "duplicate" then it cannot be done, for technical and legal reasons, obviously.
Even if Linux could be an exact copy of Windows, it would always be chasing Microsoft's tail. Most Windows users would not move to a copycat Linux.
Microsoft isn't "suppressing" anything. They're using proprietary licensing for Windows, etc. Whether or not you agree with that, it's legal and legitimate. No need to resort to conspiracy theories to figure it out.
@Corb_The_Lesser@elduvelle there have been windows 'copy' linux distros in the past, bestt known was Lindows. And it was shut down by MS.
Still, it is a weird question, and i'm not sure i understand it correctly. Linux can do almost everything windows can, sometimes better, sometimes worse. It can do things windows can't. You can run a lot of windows apps using wine. For 99% of people linux desktop would be just fine.
@Corb_The_Lesser@dirkdierickx Yeah, they could have a different enough GUI to not get sued (what’s the limit though? Anyway that’s not that important) but what would matter is that it would have the same functionalities. Can you sue over shared functions, if it’s coded in a different way? I don’t think so right?
I personally think its the ecosystem of apps and a clever trap set up early. Many people grow up with using MS products like Windows, Office and nowadays Teams in schools. When they are adults, they are familiar with these products and may also have to use them at work as well. That's until they grow old and don't want to learn anything too fancy anymore thereby sticking their known routine of using MS products. Similar story with Google and Apple software and services
@ASP hmm, I agree that what you say at least partly explains why so many more people use Windows than linux, but that doesn’t explain why there’s not at least one existing Linux distribution that mimics Windows as much as possible.
Also, the problem with Linux is not just that it’s hard to switch from your old habits - it’s also that Linux is harder to use. Personally, I found switching from Win to MacOS quite easy, even feeling nice in some aspects; but switching from Win to Linux was a constant struggle.
@elduvelle hmmm... some of the items that you've listed like the login screen not showing up is definitely of concern, a basic user shouldn't need to deal with. Could be a configuration issue or a driver issue (not sure what your system specs are). Regarding the file system permission issue, are you trying to set permissions on an NTFS partition by chance?
As for this part, I'm not sure what you're referring to:
setting up a remote connection from or to Lin to a windows machine is a pain
Are you referring to being able to connect to a Windows File Share on Linux or you're referring to remote desktop type scenario?
I think some of the pain points that you've listed is trying to use Linux exactly like Windows. Linux is definitely a completely different operating system and I personally don't believe that one should expect Linux to work exactly like Windows because it was never meant to be. Linux can do much of what Windows can do, but in its own way.
I use both Windows and Linux daily, Windows because my work mandates it but I use Linux on my personal computer and much prefer Linux, there are lots of things that annoys me very much with Windows and wished Windows adopt the way Linux does it because it takes a lot less steps on Linux but thing is, both of them are very different OSes with different design philosophy and I think expecting either OS to do it the way the other way the OS does it isn't going to work.
@deltatux thanks for the long answer. Don’t worry about those problems I had - I’m not using Linux anymore.
Yes, definitely, the two system are very different. Still, given the versatility of Linux, it should be possible to make a distribution of it that acts like Windows.. for me the main problems with windows are that it’s funding a giant corporation and that they’re trying to spy on you more and more, for example forcing you to log in with your microsoft account in Win 11 or forcing their fake AI stuff on you. Other than these kind of things, I like the way it works and I would love to use a Linux version of it that has the good aspects without the bad ones. But it looks like that’s not really possible..
@jonny do you really mean from Windows? I would like it to be non-profit and open access, and without all the bloatware and spyware.
But if you meant from Linux: I would like it to have the functionalities that windows has, like, be able to do the same things, have the same keyboard shortcuts, be as easy to use. Example of some problems I had with Linux (Ubuntu):
x. the login screen not showing up
x. not being able to set the permissions properly on one of my hard drive and constantly having problems with programs trying to save there and not being able to
x. not knowing how to do Ctrl-Alt-Del when crashing; how how to take a partial screenshot that you can paste where you want; not being able to create a text document “on the fly” in a given folder or on the desktop; not being able to show the current path in the explorer so you can copy it;
x. having problems setting up multiple screens…
x. installing things is usually harder on linux, even just finding how to install something, and then managing to execute the instructions properly, and then having the program actually work as intended
x. having usb cameras or ethernet cameras not working out of the box
x. setting up a connection to my Uni’s filestore, which eventually took about 4-6 h, when it took 5 min on Windows
x. setting up a remote connection from or to Lin to a windows machine is a pain
x. taking hours or days to fix a hardware problem like a bad hard drive
x. having problems settings ethernet parameters, fixing them, only to see the parameters being reset after a reboot
… these are the ones that I remember from just the past 3 years… I could fix most of these at the cost of lots of wasted time, but not having the shortcuts I’m used to makes the simplest things extremely tedious. I’m just used to Windows and know how to make it work when it doesn’t 🤷
@jonny oh I don’t need any help, I’ve given up on it and am back on Win now. Well unless you plan to re-make “Lindows” again but without the lawsuits ;)
@elduvelle
Ok yes I should have asked. But ya the tldr for a lot of those problems is that they are possible and even possible to make feel normal but you need the like secret incantations that are extremely poorly signposted and documented, so I dont blame you.
@jonny yeah.. which leaves me wondering: why isn’t there at least one distribution of Linux that mimics Windows as much as possible and don’t we think that this would create a major user shift towards Linux? Would it just be too hard to do?
I saw some people citing a few distributions that they’d “heard of” or which have now disappeared. But I know for sure that a lot of Windows users would love to switch to Linux if it was a seamless switch. The points about hardware and software companies having agreements with Win or MacOS, but not Linux, make sense… but it can’t be just that?
@elduvelle
The major issue is that a lot of the stuff youre pointing to are sort of hard UX problems that would require a bunch of labor, and if you already know how to use Linux (ie. Everyone who would write that code) they no longer look like problems. So its not like Linux people actively dont want to do stuff thats easy to use (although there actually are some) there are just labor and cultural barriers
@elduvelle
Also "make everyone use Linux" is not a goal for a lot of ppl who use Linux and an anti-goal for some, for reasons of protecting the priesthood or not wanting to have their special ways of doing things disrupted
@jonny it wouldn’t need to disrupt anything, as it would be a separate distribution, right? Previous linux users could keep using the distribution they want.
Your point about the programmers not seeing the need for this definitely makes sense. They’re probably not, or reluctantly, using Windows, they are probably extra-comfortable with a bunch of Linux distributions already, and they probably love doing things the command-line way. Since Linux is not there to make money there is almost no incentive to make a Windows-like distribution from the ones who would have the skills to make one.
I would have thought that attracting a substantially larger set of users would be a goal in itself, either to gain visibility, or even ethically to give people an alternative to the Big Brother companies. But maybe that’s not enough!
@elduvelle
Ill put the last thing this way - I want everyone to be empowered by technologies rather than exploited by them. I dont necessarily know whether that looks like everyone using Linux qua Linux. So for the people who are ideologically motivated by information liberation or whatever they'd call it, I imagine many feel like there are enough tensions within it as a loose body of code and culture that I would have trouble fully committing myself to work on a new distro.
("Linux" is a sort of ill defined circle to draw around a huge amount of code and history, so all caveats of heterogeneity of belief apply here.)
Linux not needing or even wanting (in some circles/cases) visibility is an odd thing, youre right. Its not really at risk of going anywhere - it runs a huge amount of tech, corporate and not, behind the scenes. So it doesnt need new users to sustain itself, really, at least as an agglomerated entity. Individual distros or packages definitely do, but there isnt really a relationship between n users and amount of support.
Hostility to newcomers is also definitely a thing, and a generous read on that would be that its bc ppl see UX as a corporate weapon (which is true) - Microsoft and fb and twitter and on and on down the line maintain their monopolies precisely because they invest huge amounts of money to make people want things that are bad for them with UX as one of the primary shaping mechanisms. So some people may lose that distinction between "the ways we are manipulated by UX are bad" and "all nice UX things are bad and we should love to suffer instead." So I would be surprised if you didnt get some reply thay was like "you shouldnt want those things," which is like 5% understandable and 35% tragic and 60% obnoxious to me.
You might probably also imagine how that distrust and distance wraps back ground to creating a whole parallel way of thinking about stuff, and imo thats really the tricky thing - translating between "cognitive styles of computing." Eg. That problem installing software - I personally am the opposite, I find it very difficult to install software on windows. "What do you mean I need to go to a website, click a few links, manually download a file, open it, click through menus, etc. What do you mean it cant handle its own dependencies and I need to go install more stuff too?" When what im used to is apt install -y program && program. But that requires me to know the name of the program already, know that command, etc. In a way thats far from obvious. Both of them are valid ways of getting software on your computer, but with different balances of discoverability, etc. And going in one direction is substantially harder than going in the other.
So anyway that is to say there are tons of good and bad reasons that we are stuck in some unfortunate local minimum where there are no truly accessible Linux distros (there are several that are very good, but im assuming youve tried them, I just mention bc I dont want to hurt anyones feelings that work hard on this) that can easily be switched to from windows keeping all idioms intact (that I am aware of)
@elduvelle@jonny I kind of feel the same. Basically, everything takes longer with Linux, sometimes much longer, and unfortunately these days that's time I just don't have. This is a shame for me because I like the philosophy and spirit of Linux much more, and I appreciate how much more hackable and composable everything is. It's in my plan to get round to installing WSL and trying to use more Linux stuff when I can, but it hasn't happened yet and it's been on the list for several years at this point.
@elduvelle@jonny
I think the "I'm just used to Windows" part is key – after having switched to Linux a long time ago, I now feel like screaming at Windows computers whenever I have to do something non-trivial on them (finding stuff in configuration, how do I even figure out what went wrong, …). Another part is that many organizations simple assume that you use Windows or macOS, so they buy some solution (often directly from Microsoft), give you a nice installer and detailed documentation for these OSes, but on Linux you have to figure it out yourself. And it is always a bit frustrating when e.g. a lab hardware vendor only supports Windows (and if you are lucky, macOS), but users complain that "it is not working on Linux" instead of blaming the vendor… But I also noticed that things have been shifting recently, mostly due to the ML community – e.g. pytorch runs faster on Linux than on Windows, and some tools for high-performance-computing only run on Linux in the first place.
But enough of the Linux evangelizing :blobrat_tongue: – I agree with a lot that has been said by others about gatekeeping and bad UX. And the diversity in the Linux ecosystem that is part of its appeal to some is of course terrible for new users ("to install this package you can use Flatpack or Appimage or Snap or the package manager of your distribution or…").
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