If a mad-cow-like disease jumped the barrier to humans and began spreading through Americans, the main problem in eradicating it would be that basically no one would be able to tell the difference from the average ‘Enthusiastic’ Republican Voter and someone whose brain is melting due to an actual pathogen.
We’re actually not sure about that. Some prions do spread by eating the meat of infected animals, but I think we can be pretty sure that’s not what’s happening in a wild deer population. Prions can also be found in the environment, including deposited on grasses and plants, where that can last a very long time.
We do not know if this disease is or will become communicable to predator animals or what the potential is for environmental spread to livestock. We do know a bit more about the BSE than some others, but there’s a bunch we know exist that we know little to nothing about, and it’s guaranteed there’s more out there that we haven’t encountered yet.
Occasionally they do consume meat as far as I know (as several herbivores do), but if that were a serious candidate it would be among the principle lines of transmission being investigated.
Zoonotic diseases are investigated by cross-disciplinary teams with experience ranging from public health and disease experts to wildlife biologists and ecologists. I did some work on a similar topic with the National Parks Service so I know a bit about how these are approached. I have no involvement with this and I’ve never worked on prion contagion models - like I said, we just don’t know. But I do have experience in the area.
Prions have been found in soil, on grass and plants, and do not get quickly degraded by sun and rain. We do know that this disease is density dependent, so you’d need a model of deer going carnivore and cannibal in a density dependent natural model, which is not a phenomenon I’m familiar with.
So what I’m saying is that we just don’t know what the deer-deer vector is or if a predation vector exists as a secondary transmission or if one will appear.
Cool information thanks. Yeah wasn’t trying to say that that’s definitely how it’s spread but most people don’t know that they’re opportunistic carnivores!
It probably depends on where you are, different parts of the country and different social circles have more or less hunters and different hunting cultures.
I know that around me in the circles I run in I pretty much everyone I know either hunts or has a friend (or multiple friends) who does and can/will hook them up with venison now and then.
If you have a couple hunters in a family, they fill all of their tags, are generous about sharing their venison with family and friends, if they’re unlucky enough that those deer have CWD, then that could potentially be dozens of people exposed.
I say this as someone who regularly eats venison and lives in a place where it’s relatively common as well but it still isn’t nearly as threatening as something like mad cow. Pretty much everyone eats beef.
It’s a lot easier to tell people don’t eat venison you hunted and contain it than it is halt the entire beef industry and tag everyone who may have eaten it yk?
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be bad, only that we’ve been through much worse as far as prions go and one like this would be relatively speaking, less of a threat
Deer arent eating venison regularly enough to explain the rate of its spread among deer.
Its moving through them someplace else. Which means if it jumps to us, its moving through us someplace else too. And we dont actually know for sure how its moving through them.
Shoot an infected deer in the head or have it otherwise die violently on the ground. Prions can last in the soil for years and years. Misfolded proteins are basically invulnerable, even in shit like autoclaves. If cows eat grass that has prions on them, that shit could potentially jump. And a lot of people ranch their cattle on public lands where infected deer are, and where wolves are unavailable due to politicians, who would otherwise prevent infected deer from spreading.
The best thing that we can do is have wolves clamp down on the few infected deer immediately rather than generate large pools of infection that then start cross-contaminating domestic livestock. Prions and ebola are the two things that really keep me up at night.
Interesting, I didn’t know prions lasted so long on bare soil. I don’t imagine it’s a simple thing for a prion to jump from animal to animal though. Certainly not any less complex than jumping to humans? Right?
I’m not well-versed enough on prions to make an incredibly informed opinion. Apex predators somehow have managed to survive it for eons, though. Prions are extremely odd, and I’m sure one day we will figure out how to reverse their effect. There are some theories that prions could have formed the basis for life if life was seeded by asteroids, as they are incredibly resilient to heat, radiation, chemicals, etc.
From the CDC’s website, it looks like CWD might not affect canids and might not affect humans, as we are just too different from the cloven-hoofed forest puppies. But much like consuming fish parasites that don’t affect humans, it seems they don’t recommend eating sick animals just on the off chance that you are patient zero for a new, fun, lethal protein :)
Yeah actually, my dad might have it as he ate plenty of beef in England at the time (not that that in any way makes me an authority on the subject) but there are plenty of prions out there and plenty of them don’t do what Creutzfeldt-Jakobs did. It’s not as if a misfolded protein exactly adapts or evolves to other biologies in order to procreate. It’s just a fucked up protein. Biology is complex and there are many many differences in brain structure from animal to animal. A single misfolded protein could affect one brain incredibly differently than it affects another or even not at all. Prions are scary but they aren’t trying to do anything because they aren’t alive and have no drive to reproduce, they also don’t mutate rapidly like viruses because they aren’t made of DNA.
However I will admit. Prions are fucking terrifying
Agreed. Kinda wonder if this is going to be what takes us out as a species one day.
A truck with all the proper paperwork arrives at the border and drops a trailer in the middle of a lot. The doors open and an automated lab just continues to selectively breed up prions in its thousands of samples of human brain cells. Eventually something wanders in, maybe a hungry animal, maybe a curious person. The prion soup enters into the ecosystem.
From the little I’ve read on this it appears that the infectious cells favor a functional brain so that means all maga evangelical republicans are safe.
I believe it’s made the jump into a certain species of monkey in a lab environment last I knew, but the jump to humans hasn’t been seen and isn’t a given. This is a clickbait title. If you’re hunting game, make sure to get it tested with samples taken at a wildlife check station before consuming and you’re likely safe here.
This is literally why we have apex predators such as wolves. They help clamp down on the old and the sick so that prions (mad cow disease) does not spread to other species or humans. It cannot infect wolves.
When you kill off all the apex predators, like when Montana governor Greg Gianforte authorized the massacre of 100 wolves, you see explosions of extremely dangerous diseases and land degradation as deer damage tree roots, gardens, meadows, streams, and farms.
Not only that, but killing members of wolf packs causes their families to fall apart and everyone to scatter. That means wolves alone. Which cannot hunt pack animals which require coordination. So then they go after the easiest meal: dumbass farm animals who have zero survival instincts and whose ranchers no longer employ people to look after the herds in great enough numbers like the olden days. The cycle then perpetuates, as mad-cow contaminated soils spread and spread…
You do know that prions aren’t living things right? They don’t “infect”, they are a physical change to a compound (protein) that spreads to other similar compounds it touches. It’s not a virus, or a bacteria.
Unless wolves lack the same proteins that deer also have? Usually this is a mammal thing, not a species thing.
Could be! I’ve spent the last 3 or so years with little to do but think, read, argue and watch youtube. I tend to watch mostly educational content, ranging from the big ones (“nile red”, “veritasium”, nutshell I can’t spell, “world science festival”) to lesser known ones (“sci-show”, “fall of civilizations”, “economics explained”, “donna” and a bunch of others). Robert Sapolsky is amazing, btw, look him up if you don’t already know who he is. But anyway, most recently I learned about the last 5 mass extinctions in a video by “paleo analysis”
Anyway…
I think many people will die in the upcoming climate crisis (and are already dying) but I don’t think humanity itself will completely die out. I mean, we are not the pinnacle of evolution that some people would like to think, and we’re still changing and likely will continue to do so as our environment changes. But die out completely? Prrrrrobably not. As a species we’re highly adaptive (even though some idiots in power hold us back) and I think that at least enough of us will survive to continue the species.
Maybe not, but I think we have a shot that’s no more unlikely than anything else that’s happened so far
I think you’re right. Having assets spread across different investments protects one from going bankrupt. Having our species spread across the different climates means that we may still survive but probably not most of us.
I totally get what you mean. I’m hopeful, tho. Pressures force growth and adaptation. I think we’re still in the complacent zone. I’m interested to see what happens next
I wouldn’t call economics explained or sci-show “lesser-known”, they’re some of the most popular “educational” youtubers out there now… (although a lot of the times i would find it more accurate to call economics explained videos opinion pieces based on faulty claims/sources rather than educational videos)
Which would you recommend? I don’t mind dry, but I have issues with accents. I like Anton Petrov’s videos but I find it difficult to understand him (as an example)
Can’t infect wolves? I’m no expert here but I don’t feel like a vertebrate mammal with a brain could be completely immune to prions. Do you have any more information on that claim?
It’s in the OP article. They haven’t found any infections yet, and it doesn’t appear to affect them. Apex predators have, prior to human intervention, always hunted the old, the young, and the sick. Mother nature appears to have found a way around apex predators all dying from disease to balance the environment.
Afaik it’s because they naturally die before the disease becomes crippling. Or it becomes crippling around or after the normal lifespan of the animal. It doesn’t mean they aren’t affected, it means it doesn’t affect them before they would normally die…
Please don’t anthropomorphize “mother nature”. Mother nature doesn’t think, or make decisions, it is a natural progression of life and death… There is a process and a cycle to much of it, hand waving “mother nature finds a way” ignores and dismisses the reality of it, and excludes the science that helps us understand how our world actually works.
I believe canines were found to be resistant to prion diseases, as they evolved to eat all manner of sick, dying and dead animals. Likely something to do with digestion, gut barrier or blood-brain barrier. Canines are pretty unique in their ability to eat almost anything that was once alive without getting sick.
CWD is a very fast acting disease compared to most prison diseases, and should easily become visible during the lifespan of a dog or wolf.
Scavengers like Hyenas and Vultures too. Vultures even have some strange adaptations to take care of their feet when feasting on scavenged carcasses. Their GI tracts are wild.
Without reading, is it Chronic wasting? I just checked in on that the other day and the CDC didn’t seem to think it was a big deal unless you are in a hotzone.
Prion diseases can take decades to show symptoms, like with CJD, and are very hard to test for in humans.
It might not be a question of whether it can jump species barriers, but when we will know it did, which is why the CDC can’t and won’t ring any alarm bells, just advise caution, until it’s either too late for individuals or a confirmed non-issue.
There was a study that claimed it had jumped to chimps/monkeys in a testing environment but last I heard it was disputed, but that still leaves the average citizen with plenty of reason to not
Checks notes
Eat a diseased animal.
Source your venison, it should be tested if it’s from an affected area but you never can trust suppliers for wild game.
Consider just eating, you know, cow, or only venison from a trusted source.
Preferably the person that shot and had it butchered.
It’s not exploitation if they consent, that’s the entire point of veganism
Edit: instead of reading this entire ridiculous comment chain with commie consistently being wrong about everything they say, here’s the part where I won the argument
This is nonsense. If I have a thing, and I give you that thing freely and of my own volition, you have not exploited me. If we’re going to say that that’s necessarily exploitation, then all transactions are exploitative, and nothing could be considered vegan except for growing your own vegetables in the wild. No, human-derived food can be vegan, as is the case with milk.
your peta link is out of date. it says that the academy of nutrition and dietetics says that appropriately planned vegan diets are appropriated at all stages, but that paper has expired and is no longer a position of the academy.
My point was not that PETA supported breastfeeding based on a study they cited, my point was that PETA, an organization considered by many to be an extremist vegan organization, recommends breastfeeding.
I cannot fathom why I need to explain this to you. PETA hates every human activity that isn’t vegan. PETA does not hate breastfeeding. Ergo, it is reasonable to assume via the transitive property that breastfeeding must be vegan, as it is a human activity that PETA does not hate. The exact same can be said for the vegan society link I provided in a different comment.
if Peta were an authority on what is vegan, then the rest of your claim would be true. since Peta is not an authority on what is vegan it’s possible that their mistaken about their take on breastfeeding.
Sure, it’s the most braindead definition you can use, and it ignores the very concept of why vegans are vegan in the first place. Big “gender=sex is basic biology” energy here
When they say “all forms of exploitation,” do you think they mean “exploitation in every form, be it for food, clothing, entertainment, etc.,” or do you think they mean “exploitation by every conceivable definition?” Because the vegan society speaks and acts as if it is the former, and the latter is a semantic argument that’s only ever made in bad faith.
So what do vegans mean when they say “exploitation?” Well, without a clear definition from them, we have to make inferences. Not breastfeeding is possible and practicable thanks to plant-based formulas, yet they don’t recommend against it. Therefore, it must be the case that human milk, in the context of breastfeeding, is vegan, as if it weren’t, they would necessarily recommend against it. That rules out any definition of “exploitation” that is as simple as “make use of,” because if their definition were that simple, they would have to recommend against “making use of” human milk.
This leaves us with definitions that are more complex than simply “making use of.” Every single applicable definition of “exploit” that’s more complex than “make use of” involves something to do with unfairness, lack of consent, or some other inequality.
Now that we’ve established the fact that human-derived foods can be vegan (and we have established that as a fact), we can safely say that human meat can be vegan, as long as the individual consents, is not being unfairly treated, and is giving their flesh of their own volition. You were wrong. It’s okay to be wrong, you can simply admit that your understanding was imperfect, and grow as an individual.
They would not. Plant-based formula is available. Not breastfeeding is possible and practicable. I was pretty sure you were just trolling, but now I’m certain of it.
the vegan society speaks and acts as if it is the former
this is only your interpretation of the facts. I’ve already given an equally supported interpretation. the only rational course is to suspend judgement until more is known.
they also say that you only need to practice veganism in so far as it is practicable. recommending the people do the practicable thing instead of the vegan thing is perfectly in line with a vegan society’s definition. that doesn’t change whether it’s exploitation.
It’s perfectly practicable to not breastfeed your baby, and to only use plant-derived formula. If human milk wasn’t vegan, the Vegan Society would say as much.
The issue is that deer dont eat each other often enough for that to be how they spread it among each other.
So whatever vector is moving it around in them, which we dont actually know yet, is the more likely risk of an actual jump. Cant not take a risk if you cant tell if its risky.
Once an environment is infected, the pathogen is extremely hard to eradicate. It can persist for years in dirt or on surfaces, and scientists report it is resistant to disinfectants, formaldehyde, radiation and incineration at 600C (1,100F).
right, prions officially suck.. also no known cure or vaccine..
It’s incredibly unlikely that there will ever be a vaccine or cure. Prions aren’t a disease like others, put in layman terms they are anti-life.
It’s like all the healthy proteins in your body are balancing on a tight rope 10 stories into the air. Prions are what happens when the proteins fall off: the proteins fall to a ground state where they are incredibly stable. Moving them back up would be as difficult as sending lightning back up to the sky, or unbaking a cake. That’s why you need to burn them at 600C, they are so stable that they don’t even want to react with oxygen. They are like nature’s own forever-chemical.
Trying to use analogies to describe prions is hard. What it actually is is a certain type of misfolded protein. That happens all the time–that would be like the humans falling off the tightrope. It doesn’t usually affect other proteins, and it usually just makes that individual protein nonfunctional. But prion diseases are proteins that are misfolded in exactly the right way that they cause other proteins to misfold in exactly the same way, which causes other proteins to misfold the same way… It’s like kids playing zombie tag, except the kids are supposed to be doing taxes or something so they aren’t running away from the chasers, and for some reason as soon as they get tagged they play along and now your taxes never get done and also you die
Add comment