Reddit & Gaza situation

Is it me or is Reddit a pit-hole of people that advocate Palestinians being ethnic cleansed and genocide?

Many threads about Arab countries not taking in Palestinians and blaming the Palestinians for protesting and all that.

But majority of Reddit people refuse to acknowledge the history of how Israel was made. You know - Israel literal stealing the land of Palestinians in 1948, driving out 750 000 Palestinian people.

Humiliating, apartheid and the killing of men women and children Palestinians.

They seem to blame Hamas, always. But refuse to acknowledge that Hamas was made in 1987 because of Israel horrifying actions towards the Palestinian people.

It looks as if the entire Reddit community is advocating of just letting Palestinian fade into nothingness. But then all shout shockingly when talking about what Nazi Germany did to Jewish people.

While it is all the same. Ethnic cleansing and genocide.

All three are wrong What Nazi Germany did is wrong. What Israel is doing is wrong. What Hamas is doing is wrong.

Why does Reddit not want to acknowledge it? I don’t get it.

Note: Apologies if political questions and a slight rant isn’t allowed here. If it isn’t, tell me. I will delete its

krellor,

Part of the reason this particular issue is so contentious is because there is a great deal of nuance and history, and people can easily fall prey to confirmation bias by finding what they go looking for. What Hamas does and stands for is wrong. The disproportionate response from Israel, settlers in the West Bank, and lack of adherence to their own standards of engagement is wrong. But deeply rooted in this conflict is the belief that we must pick sides, and that one side must be right and the other wrong. I'm going to share a prior comment that gives of the nuance I mention.

The reality is both Israel and Palestinians are victims; victims of each other, their neighbors, and the world around them. You can make one side look better or worse depending on when you start the clock on the discussion.

When Israel was formed in 1948 there wasn't a Palestinian state, but rather a collection of towns with various ethnic populations including Jewish and Muslims peoples. The area was controlled by Britain in the time before WW2 under a mandate from the league of nations, the precursor to the UN.

In 1948 the UN set a border for Jewish and Palestinian states in the territory that is today known as Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. The Jewish peoples, some who could trace their ancestry in the area to biblical times, and others who settled the area as either a Zionist effort or fleeing the Holocaust, accepted the borders which were much smaller than today's Israel, because it meant they would finally have their own state and land.

The Arabs didn't accept the border for a variety of reasons, and the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia attacked the fledgling Jewish state.

Notably, the Palestinians didn't attack. Though there were tensions between the Jewish peoples and the Palestinians who felt the encroachment of Jewish settlers from Europe, the Palestinian cause was really created and coopted by their Muslim neighbors.

During the war Israel expanded their borders, 700,000 Palestinians were displaced while some were massacred. Some Palestinians fled the war, some were forced out, some left at the call of their Arab neighbors, and some left in fear of being massacred. The armistice that ended the war left Israel larger, Jordan in control of the West Bank, and Egypt in control of Gaza. Note, this was before the West began to provide military aid to Israel.

So the Israel narrative or myth is that they have the pure moral high ground where they win a war for the right to exist. The Palestinian narrative and myth is that they were all violently dispossessed by the Jews and are pure victims. To this day, children born in Palestinian refuge camps are taught about the village they are "from" which often doesn't exist and their family does 70 years ago. Though many were not forced out during the war, the narrative is they were all forced to leave by the Jewish army.

So you have these competing ideas passed down on both sides that are in conflict, and neither one quite right.

When you look at how Palestinians have been treated by their Arab neighbors you see how they have been abused further. For example, Jordan and Egypt could have made the West Bank and Gaza independent Palestinian states, but they didn't. They continued to occupy them, and ultimately lose control after going to war with Israel again in the six day war in 1967, which set the stage for many of the problems today.

Over the years these narratives in conflict have bred real world violence in a tit for tat escalation that spans decades. Israel continues its narrative that it is in a war for its right to exist, which is true, but also doesn't accept responsibility for worsening the situation at times over the years and human rights abuses such as the 24 documented displacements.

Palestinians continue to define themselves as a dispossessed people, teaching their children that they need to reclaim what they lost, while being used by their surrounding Arab religious state neighbors as a proxy battleground against Israel. Palestinians have refused offers to develop permanent housing for fear of would weaken their claim to being refugees, and really live in entrenched slums that they call refuge camps.

The recent events were caused by Hamas, fearing the normalization of Israel relationships and the fading of the Palestinians cause to retake lost land, attacking Israel. Then of course, you have Israels grossly disproportionate response and the horrors therein.

So really the situation is quite a mess, and made worse by people ignorant of the history rushing to support one side or the other. In reality, both sides are prisoners of their own history, and unlikely to set themselves free anytime soon.

If you want a short podcast that goes over this in more detail, I recommend "The Daily" podcast titled 1948, which was released this past November 3rd.

Devi,

Palestinians have refused offers to develop permanent housing for fear of would weaken their claim to being refugees, and really live in entrenched slums that they call refuge camps.

There's quite a few misconceptions in this post but this is the weirdest one. Even if you watch the most biased Israeli led news you can see the many many buildings in Gaza, there's fully developed towns and cities, with schools, hospitals, art galleries, etc.

There are refugee camps for those displaced from constant Israeli home theft but they are not instead of houses.

krellor,

I'm not an expert, however I think Palestinian aversion to anything that could be considered resettlement, even within Gaza and the West Bank is well documented and reasonable to understand given their attachment to the right of return. Here is a good overview of the tension between establishing a new home and the desire to return. Rejecting resettlement: the case of the Palestinians.

Also, I'm not attempting to make a reductionist claim. There are millions of Palestinians and they have many different views regarding these issues.

Regarding other potential misconceptions you find in my post, I did my best to stick to a fairly neutral view of history, realizing it is complicated and many might disagree. However, in painting a broad overview that gives weight to all sides claims while also recognizing historical factual events, I think it does alright.

Have a great day, and thanks for the reply!

Devi,

You've got mixed up here. So the article is about people who have fled from Palestine and a US and UK plan to resetlle displaced palestinians to other countries.

This is not related to Palestinians in Palestine at all who are quite happy where they are and indeed live in houses.

I understand your attempt to make a balanced take, but in doing so you've added quite a few clear falsehoods and misunderstood some topics as the above.

Jewish people being able to trace their individual genealogy back to the bible is impossible which I'm sure you are aware of if you think it through properly.

Talking of palestinians who are forced out of their homes only being mad when told to be by 'muslim neighbours' doesn't make sense. If someone came to your house today and threw you out how would you feel? Would you be perfectly fine with it?

You talk about things happening 70 years ago as if the issue is the settlement of jews post war and not the sustained taking of land that happens every single day. Home theft by Israelis happens so regularly that there is a charity working there exclusively for the moving of Palestinians who are given 24 hours to vacate their homes, homes built by their own hands, homes where their children live, homes where all their stuff is.

It just all needs a bit more research.

krellor,

I think we are like ships in the night, sailing past but not quite connecting.

My post is rather expressly about the past to help paint a picture for the OP as to why people have the views they do. I start with 1948 both because OP mentioned it and because it is as clean a starting point as I think you can easily get, but obviously this is by no means a past issue. But I think understanding the part helps people understand the differences that people have today.

Also, to be clear, I said in my first paragraph that settlers in the West Bank is wrong. Additionally, the article I linked was to highlight the history behind the difficulty establish new homes, in the West Bank or anywhere else, because of this generational desire to maintain the right to return. This is manifest in much of the politics and diplomacy of the 80s and 90s, and the ultimate decision by Yassir Arafat.

I would suggest giving a listen to the podcast I mentioned. The Daily on November 3rd, where they interview the New York Times correspondent to Israel from the 1960s. He gives quite an interesting history.

Anyway, best regards!

Devi,

You listened to a 20 minute podcast and think that's all you need to know?? That's awful. That's genuinely awful.

Please research this properly and correct your post.

athos77,

They are recommending a well-resesrched, somewhat nuanced podcast that gives basic information for people who may not be familiar with the historical complexities. Your " please research this properly" is akin to me saying, "Hey, if you're interested in some basic cooking techniques, try Serious Eats," and you shooting me down for not recommending Larousse Gastronomique.

Devi,

The issue is that I've replied to them to point out the issues with their post which are quite serious, like palestinians don't want to live in houses. They're recommending I listen to a podcast they listened to as if that will somehow show where all their information is from. It won't, because it's not true.

krellor,

If you were to go back through my admittedly boring comment history, you would find past comments giving detailed overviews of the history that predate that podcast. I've read many sources including contemporary news coverage, as well as primary and secondary historical sources. However the podcast is both entertaining and accessible, and thus a good starting point to refer people interested in more information.

I feel I've engaged quite reasonably in this discussion and participated in good faith, providing two sources for the one specific issue you raised in my post around the Palestinian adherence to the right of return. Beyond that one point, all you have given me are general disparagements, which aren't particularly friendly or constructive. It's doubly odd given that my post is largely free of significant claims for either side and I feel the points given are fairly easy to verify as a matter of historical record.

All that said, if you have any good reading materials that consist of either scholarly, primary, or secondary sources (but not opinion essays) then I'm happy to take a look.

Devi,

If correcting your misconceptions feels like 'disparagement' to you then you're somehow taking facts personally?

Regardless of what research you claim to have done, you've got some very serious misconceptions and are claiming that they're fact.

You have provided no sources for any of these ideas despite having every opportunity to do so. You have linked to an article which you've misunderstood. The article was about being unwilling to move to a completely new country against your will, which is somewhat normal, and from that you have extrapolated that Palestinians don't have houses and claimed they only live in shanty towns.

This statement alone is quite offensive and disparaging to the Palestinian people.

You claim that you're engaging 'in good faith', but you've started this by insulting an entire nation. That's the issue.

ThankYouVeryMuch,
ThankYouVeryMuch avatar

Sorry, you are completely in the wrong here. The commenter above you was talking about Palestinian refugees, not the general Palestinian population, please re-read the comment. Also everything they said are well known historical facts, there's no need to post source for them if you want sources you can go to a library.
You can argue these facts aren't the truth, the winners and the powerful write history and all that, but then is on you to support that claim with some proofs, not the other way around

Devi,

Palestinians continue to define themselves as a dispossessed people, teaching their children that they need to reclaim what they lost, while being used by their surrounding Arab religious state neighbors as a proxy battleground against Israel. Palestinians have refused offers to develop permanent housing for fear of would weaken their claim to being refugees, and really live in entrenched slums that they call refuge camps.

Very clear here that they're not discussing refugees. In fact when I pointed out that was incorrect they doubled down on it.

As for 'historical facts', can you point out a source for individuals tracing their genealogy to 'biblical times'? That's very much not historical fact. In fact it's not really a possible thing to do.

There's also statements that can't possibly be facts such as stories that people tell their children.

The truth is, they've made up a lot of things as they didn't realise that it sounded quite so strange.

krellor,

These are weird things to be hung up on but ok.

The history of ancient Israel and Judah begins in the Southern Levant region of Western Asia during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. The earliest known reference to "Israel" as a people or tribal confederation (see Israelites) is in the Merneptah Stele, an inscription from ancient Egypt that dates to about 1208 BCE, but the people group may be older. According to modern archaeology, ancient Israelite culture developed as an outgrowth from the pre-existing Canaanite civilization. Two related Israelite polities known as the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Kingdom of Judah had emerged in the region by Iron Age II.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

The Palestinian right of return (Arabic: حق العودة الفلسطيني, romanized: Ḥaqq al-ʻAwdah al-Filasṭīnī; often shortened as العودة, al-ʻAwdah or al-Awda) is the political position or principle that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees (c. 30,000 to 50,000 people still alive as of 2012),[3][4] as well as their descendants (c. 5 million people as of 2012),[3] have a right to return and a right to the property they themselves or their forebears left behind or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (both formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine), as part of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight, a result of the 1948 Palestine war, and due to the 1967 Six-Day War.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

If you are still hung up on the wording, I was indeed referring to Palestinians who fled or were forced out of their homes in the war of 1948 and 1967.

You keep saying I'm wrong on these basic points of history. Well, sources above. Also feel free to check británica or any other encyclopedia.

Devi,

Right... you seem to have decided to defend entirely different points than you originally made. Nobody is saying Jewish people didn't live in the area, Jesus lived there. That's fact. What you claimed was that some of the people who moved there could trace their own family history to the area in 'biblical times'. That's impossible. It appears that you've realised that and changed the goal posts so OK, I guess at least you've realised.

On your second point, there are not Palestinians who have lived in refugee camps since 1948, thats longer than many peoples lifetimes. What you're now saying is that Palestinians displaced to other countries wish to go back to their country. That's again a very different point to saying Palestinians live in shanty towns, so I guess there too you've realised your error.

krellor,

The Jewish peoples, some who could trace their ancestry in the area to biblical times, and others who settled the area as either a Zionist effort or fleeing the Holocaust,

I used the term peoples, not person, denoting ethnic Jewish populations. Certain populations have long running histories in the region. I never claimed there existed some individuals person with a complete family record back to the iron age. I feel I used language very consistent with contemporary anthropology. Maybe this is a translation issue?

With respect to Palestinians; I used the term in the context of displaced peoples from the wars of 1948 and 1967. I think context makes plain my intent.

Regardless, I've spent enough time in this corner of the fediverse. I feel my statements speak for themselves for those who are not reading into them their own assumptions and biases.

Have a great day!

ThankYouVeryMuch,
ThankYouVeryMuch avatar

being refugees, and really live in entrenched slums that they call refuge camps.

It's right there, in the paragraph you copy-pasted. The first sentence can be applied to the more general population, but the second one is clearly mentioning refugees.

I don't know if any individual has traced their ancestry to 'biblical times', but it's a well documented historical fact that there've been Jewish populations around there since thousands of years ago. Not that it gives them (or others) any right to expel people from their homes nowadays, mind you, and I don't think op was trying to make this point either.

And about the stories people tell to children, well someone has to, right? because the are picking them up and picking up the fight and they've been passing down for generations now.

norbert,
norbert avatar

I won't speak to the Israel/Palestine conflict but can vouch for The Daily as being a decent, well-researched podcast.

It's put out by the NYTimes, the people who make it are journalists who have at least done some research. It's not some hack "news" site out to disguise opinion pieces as reality.

Here's a link to the episode mentioned for the lazy.

JoumanaKayrouz,

I hate that as an American it’s expected of me to take sides. I no longer care about people on the other side of the Earth killing each other in the name of religion. Both sides are abhorrent.

520,

You can take the sides of the civilians. Hamas and IDF can both go bomb each other to oblivion for all I care, just leave the civilians (Israeli and Palestinian) the fuck out of it.

sab,
sab avatar

This is such an easy decision that seems weirdly difficult to grasp for so many people.

Side with civilians. Oppose whoever commanding the murdering of civilians. Sometimes that means despising both sides of leadership in a war situation. And that's normal and healthy. Quite often it's all fucked.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

as an American ... Both sides are abhorrent.

Your taxes only support (and by quite alot) the abhorrence of one side, though.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

If I had any power to change that I would have by now

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Who signs your tax returns?

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

So you're saying I shouldn't pay my taxes? Bold move.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I am saying you do have power which you claim not to have.

You could not contribute money to causes you find abhorrent; worst your government would probably do is shoot you. They would likely only place you in a cage.

I never suggested what choice you should make, merely contradicted assertions you didn't have one.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

In Thoreau’s case, the lawbreaking was rather limited and the resulting penalties rather modest. And his protest did not, notably, stop the intended machine: It would take a different, internecine war to end the hated institution of slavery.

So all I need to be is a widely published and beloved author, mentor to a popular philosopher and poet, and spend a brief bit of time in prison before my aunt pays my bail, and I, too, can have no effect on the thing I'm protesting.

Gee, it's so simple! \s

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I just said you don't have to fund atrocities through your taxes.

Pay them if you want to, but

If I had any power to change that I would have by now

would seem to not be true.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

Me not paying my taxes will not stop the atrocities. All it will accomplish is making me feel morally superior while I sit in prison.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Me not paying my taxes will not stop the atrocities.

It would stop you paying for the atrocities, like you said you would do if you had

any

power to change.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm neither trying to condemn you nor offer absolution I'm just telling you you have choices.
You seem to have made them already, but if you're ever not happy with them you can make a different choice and see if that works out better.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

Nobody in this thread has said they want to stop paying for the atrocities. They want to stop the atrocities regardless of who's paying for them.

You're missing the point entirely and considering the length of this thread you're missing it on purpose.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You replied to

as an American ... Both sides are abhorrent.
Your taxes only support (and by quite alot) the abhorrence of one side, though.

With

If I had any power to change that I would have by now

You do have the power to stop having your taxes support the above named abhorrences.

You and several others seem to have a real issue with that being pointed out.
Not even being chastised for. Just stated.

When you sign your return you are deciding funding atrocities is preferable to being imprisoned.

I'm not condemning you for making that choice but I would suggest you examine what you're avoiding when you twitch so rapidly to deny a choice is being made.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

I'm not denying there's a choice being made. What I'm trying to get through your thick skull us that the reason I don't make that choice is that it won't stop the atrocities, which is what I actually want, not to feel morally superior.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I'm sure everyone else who pays into the war machine feels the same way you do.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

And if there was an organized tax strike maybe it would make a difference. But individuals not paying their taxes individually won't work, just like it didn't work for Thoreau

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

And if there was an organized tax strike

That an excellent idea. Does

If I had any power to change that I would

still apply and mean we can expect you'll be organizing such a strike presently what with the power to effect change you've just realized you

maybe

have?

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

You’re just full of ideas that wouldn’t work. Maybe if I was as eloquent and well known as Thoreau people would listen to me. But I can’t even get you to listen to me

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You’re just full of ideas that wouldn’t work.

Well now hold on, now. You said yourself it might.

Can I presume

If I had any power to change that I would

was merely an empty platitude then and you're actually content enough with the status quo?

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

It might work if I wasn’t the one leading it.

And if you want someone to go to jail for a protest, be my guest. I’ve got too much to lose to do that.

Doesn’t mean I’m satisfied, just that I recognize that one person doesn’t have a chance against this machine.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

It might work if I wasn’t the one leading it.

So can I presume you're out tirelessly looking for those effective leaders to help in your shared cause, or is this just another of your excuses to do nothing all while lamenting how you wished there was something you could do?

I recognize that one person doesn’t have a chance against this machine.

Are you out looking for others and organizing with them or have you expended too much energy criticizing people who point out U.S. taxpayers fund killing Gazan children and so are tired?

oocdc2,

Can you imagine if we, as US taxpayers, could designate what programs/services our taxes support? Until then, though, we're stuck with funding yet another overseas atrocity.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

we're stuck with funding yet another overseas atrocity.

You're not though, you've just decided you prefer funding overseas atrocities to prison.

I don't claim moral superiority on that front, but we have choices all of us.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

Me going to prison for not paying my taxes will have zero effect on this. Hell, if I immolate myself on the steps of Congress I'll just be a "troubled individual."

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Me going to prison for not paying my taxes will have zero effect on this.

I think you will find the amount you pay in taxes and the resulting effect of refusing to pay them are both non-zero.

Further, the difference to your personal culpability would certainly not be nothing 'twixt paying and refusing to pay.

I have never told you what choice you should make.

I only pointed out that rather than being powerless and without choices, you have actively decided you prefer funding atrocities to going to prison.

pingveno,

Can you imagine if we, as US taxpayers, could designate what programs/services our taxes support?

Double edged sword. Would you give a budgetary veto to billionaires? They would have the means to find veto spots to maximize their control over the government. Or just people of more modest income. That "welfare queen" myth would have plenty of people starving welfare programs when the power is in their hands.

oocdc2,

If billionaires actually paid taxes--the loopholes and exemptions on the business and corporate levels are astounding. Just sayin'.

pingveno, (edited )

Well, there is that. Bastards. But honestly, I'm just as concerned about your run of the mill middle income person who's been convinced that poking holes in the social safety net is a great idea. Or apply it to other things. Some people have an intense hatred for anything that isn't their precious cars. Just set up special interest groups like the ones that are used to censor books with LGBTQ themes, but instead have a list of government programs to defund.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

David Graeber wrote about a guy who ran for mayor of Sao Paolo, Brazil with the idea that he wouldn't do the job. When they needed a budget, he let citizens submit their own budgets. Amazingly, they were okay with taxes going up to pay for the things they wanted.

Nepenthe,
Nepenthe avatar

There is yet another flaw in that you think all Americans have enough money to even qualify to pay taxes. I've always made so little, the government has owed me every year but one. Over 40% are in the same position.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Any chance they owed you because you let them hang on to your cash all year and fund whatever they wanted with the interest?

PlasterAnalyst,

Israel has a large blackhat tech sector which has traditionally sold technical exploits to nation states. They've simply turned their talents to online astroturfing.

jayrhacker,
jayrhacker avatar

IATA for committing war crimes in response to my enemy committing war crimes in response to war crimes?

ESH

AlwaysNowNeverNotMe,
AlwaysNowNeverNotMe avatar

There's quite a lot of astroturfing online being perpetrated by one side.

And a certain countries cyber warfare division.

Ziggurat,

Reddit, especially the world news and europe subs have been dealing with far right brigading for as long as I remember, there is regularly comments praising israel, and blaming Muslims itxs a bit morc visible noz but not new

magnetosphere,
magnetosphere avatar

Happily, I don’t know. I’m proud of myself for not being back to reddit in months. Granted, that’s like saying “I’m proud of myself for no longer bashing my head into the wall”, but still.

Hello_there,

Bigger site, more shills

Dieinahole,

Don't forget:
There's oil off the coast of gaza.

sadreality,

ever again.... except one more time so "better people can have their land back"

pan0wski,
@pan0wski@infosec.pub avatar

In my experience, it’s the opposite.

yiliu,

Seems to break along subreddit lines.

tygerprints,

It's abhorrent to advocate for any genocide on either scale. Ethnic cleansing is anti-humanity in every way. I just don't see what the problem is having two distinct states in that particular region. Palestinians are quite capable of ruling themselves and they in fact built quite an amazing society along the Gaza strip. Israel already has it's own territory, they need to completely get out of Gaza and start putting effort into rebuilding their own status.

It's ridiculous that humans look for such flimsy excuses to drop bombs on each other. I know if it isn't about a strip of land, it's going to be about something else - I'm not naive enough to think people will suddenly give up their love of cold-blooded weaponry usage and not look for reasons to hate to try and justify hurting other people.

But there's no reason right now for any of this nonsense in the middle east to continue. Neither side is going to win much except for bringing so much more misery and suffering into the world than ever existed before.

K1nsey6,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

What Hamas is doing is not wrong, without them who would defend Palestinians from Israeli apartheid and genocide

sab,
sab avatar

They're feeding the genocidal fear mongering rhetoric of the Israeli far right, effectively becoming useful idiots for Netanyahu and his fascist buddies.

They're also killing civilians.

Hamas can fuck right off along with Netanyahu & co.

ConfusedPossum,

I find it more useful to think of Hamas as an inevitability when your lock people up in what is basically a radicalization farm without any hope of a better future.

I know Hamas existed long before oct 7th but who knows what might have happened if Israël had accommodated for a Palestinian state after the second intifada, based on the borders of 1948. Like yeah sure the Palestinians might have hoped for more but I think most of them are so tired of the constant humiliation and violence that I think they would have gladly accepted such an arrangement, thereby undermining Hamas' reason to exist.

The fact that Israël has failed to even attempt to come to a reasonable arrangement with the Palestinians in the years after the second intifada is why I blame Israel more than the Palestinians for the current crisis, even though Hamas started the violence. It's all they know. I don't know what my breaking point would be in an environment like that

Uranium3006,
Uranium3006 avatar

Also Israel funded Hamas as recently as 2018 and Israel ignored Egyptian warnings of the impending attack on 10/7. This was the desired outcome of the Israeli far right, an excuse to do genocide

sab,
sab avatar

Yeah, I can see where they come from, but that's not a justification. If you get into this kind of reasoning you can see where the israelites come from as well, even though they've of course had sheltered privileged lives compared to Palestinians and especially those in Gaza. A lot of Jewish people carry the history their people with them in a very personal way, and I don't blame them for that.

In the end there's just no justification for terrorising civilians.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

They're feeding the genocidal fear mongering rhetoric of the Israeli far right, effectively becoming useful idiots for Netanyahu and his fascist buddies.

Before 2005 Gaza used to be like the current West Bank. I mean there's a good argument that the West Bank has it better, but let's not forget that the West Bank is and has been the victim of a slow burn genocide. "Don't fight back" is not the solution. Hell, the only reason peace talks got anywhere in the 90s was because of the very much not peaceful first Intifada.

By not feeding the fearmongering rhetoric of the Israeli far right, Palestinians would simply be forced to take the other option of laying down and dying.

520,

Yes, they've been the only organisation pushing back against Israeli oppression, but let's not pretend they're any better than the IDF morally. They are just as bad as the IDF for targeting civilians.

NoIWontPickaName,

Hopefully someone who isn’t kidnapping innocent children.

HobbitFoot,

First, it isn’t all of Reddit. I’ve seen a lot of pro-Palestinian posts on Reddit. However, Reddit is a more mainstream site and support for Palestine in the English speaking is no where near as high as on Lemmy.

Second, I wouldn’t be surprised if Reddit is the target of a propaganda campaign by Israel. In contrast, posting Israeli propaganda on Lemmy probably isn’t worth it. The audience isn’t here to sway public opinion.

Fitik,
Fitik avatar

@HobbitFoot "Pro-Palestinian posts" vs "Israeli Propaganda"
What an interesting choice of words

@ModernRisk

NoneOfUrBusiness,

It's not as interesting if you learn to read.

Diabolo96, (edited )

I use redreader to lurk there and to follow some AI news from time to time and each time i find myself closing the app after seeing the most vile isreali propaganda you can find. It’s cesspool of degenerative thinking. The nazi didn’t die, a fair amount of the children of their victims toke the torch and ran with it to palestine. But It doesn’t matter , At the end of the day, the crimes of Israel are the last lines of history from a dying planet, and when the searing heat of the MENA region will reach its peak, they can’t simply throw US bombs at it to destroy it.

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