If Republicans can vote for a rapist who promises to do away with America democracy, democrats can vote for a genocide supporter. Complaining about you chosen candidates doesn’t mean your aren’t going to vote for him.
I love how self-righteous the people calling him Genocide Joe are. It was about abortion rights. Did they bring up trans individuals or was that not cool enough to protest as well? I guess it’s cooler to protest for Palestinians than the trans people dying in your own country. Gotta get that clout 😎
Edit: I view you the same way you view hypocritical pro-lifers
One can support trans-individuals rights, and Palestinians suffering from their own leadership as well as the Likud party within Israel. In addition, we can do that while voting for Joe Biden, and voting against AIPAC-endorsed candidates.
I’m waiting to see it happen because I’m aware people can support more than one thing at once but the situation for trans people has gotten infinitely worse and with reproductive rights being gutted that puts us more at risk. And yet I don’t see anybody protesting for trans people dealing with these issues. It’s just crickets and no support.
I’m thinking that November is when you’ll see the votes showing support for trans-individuals and reproductive rights. In the case of men, you don’t see them in abortion-related protests all that often, but when it comes to the ballots, there’s quite a lot of men in favor of abortion.
When did lemmy become such a shithole? I know people here tend to be young, but I thought they were generally more intelligent than this shit. So much “genocide Joe” bullshit. People that will refuse to vote, and then completely absolve themselves when they hand it to Trump and the genocide escalates.
It’s not about Palestinian lives, it’s about making sure you don’t feel guilty for personally voting for Joe Biden.
It’s just idiots, can’t escape them. Not on Reddit, not on Lemmy, and not when it comes to deciding our shared fate via elections. And I assume some portion of the “genocide Joe” crowd are just plants.
Biden is actively giving money to a genocidal state, I’m still going to vote for him because the only other choice is a literal fascist who wants to start genocides here as well.
You can demand better from your elected officials, while continuing to vote for them. Joe is a horrible democrat candidate, and I have zero qualms about making that known. But he’s also the only candidate the party has been willing to put forth, so it’s who I’ll end up voting for. That doesn’t mean I need to be happy or enthusiastic about voting for him.
Lemmy is a younger user base, more technologically inclined and more prone to capture by social media propaganda.
This place is worse than Reddit in some respects. These people don’t gaf about the lives of people at risk, they care about satisfying their white saviour guilt being prompted by the tragedy du jour. There’s literally millions of Arabs in the immediate vicinity who are being killed by other Arabs and no one gives a flying fuck sadly.
I think there’s a difference between conspiracy and falling for misinformation if that makes sense…thin line though I’m sure. We’re all susceptible at some level.
I’m youngish, and as I started my thirties I started to notice the most common thing with the young is they wield political theory a bit too homogeneously.
Like, when I realized I was a lefty in my twenties every issue started to be framed in how capitalism was the noxious root of the problem, but I lacked the real world context where pointing that out wasn’t helpful.
Now if someone came along with information that confirmed my perspective I used less scrutiny— because they were “like me” and “we’re one of the ‘good’ guys so they wouldn’t lie to me.” Now, I’m unsure if aging is going to make this better or worse tho 😅 I’m just more aware of it now.
So much “genocide Joe” bullshit. People that will refuse to vote, and then completely absolve themselves when they hand it to Trump and the genocide escalates.
One can literally hate Joe Biden, and still continue to vote for Joe Biden. If I am in the position of voting for democratic candidates that aren’t funded by AIPAC, and is willing to be critical against Israel, I’d vote for them unless forced to (the other candidate is a Republican.). I think the responsible thing to do is to continue criticizing the decision to support Israel, as well as their action, reject Hamas, vote for democratic candidates and try picking the ones that aren’t paid for by the AIPAC.
I don’t think it’s that simple, especially for people of colour, and especially for those with Arab and especially Palestinian heritage.
America hasn’t been great to us ever. Since 2001 it has gotten distinctly worse for us.
A lot of us have family who are being or have been bombed by the US indiscriminately. The US and Joe Biden is funding a genocide. That’s not made up. That’s not a joke. The US is more upset that the Houthis raised global shipping by a couple percent than they are that the ally that they give the most money to has killed north of 25000 defenseless people in three months.
I agree that voting for trump is going to make it worse for everyone, which is why I will still vote for Biden. But I voted begrudgingly for him last time, because I knew he was fake, and not really liberal. He hasn’t stood by a single campaign promise he made. If a legitimate, liberal, left wing third party came up, I would vote for them immediately. Choosing between one racist piece of shit and a more racist, more orange piece of shit is not a great choice.
Again, I agree that trump would be a million times worse for brown and black people. But I get why a lot of Arab Americans and black Americans are fucking tired of it, and want to make a point to the DNC. That same party that is not a left wing party or a liberal party, that is completely bought out by corporations (ex. See how they fucked Bernie in 2016), and that will turn around and blame brown and black voters for not delivering them the white house when literally over half.of white women and white men want Donald Trump.
A lot of the people I’ve spoken to now are done. This was never really our country and politicians have made it even more obvious that it isn’t. So the idea that a lot of people have now is “well fuck it, why should we vote to save this country when the people who run this country keep.fucking it up and especially fucking us over. It’s time for whitey to do his/her part if they actually care, and if they don’t fuck it, we will leave”
It’s not about growing up, it’s about being tired of being second or third class citizens. The only reason this is getting such a big shout-out now is because the policies are finally starting to affect white people, white women in particular. And yet somehow.still over half of them want trump in.
Honestly, if you think he hasn’t fulfilled any of his promises it’s because you don’t want to acknowledge his attempts and those who are standing in the way.
The ones saying that never do. They try to act like a promise means that whatever politician can make whatever thing happen all by themselves and if they can’t then it’s a lie.
These people would’ve been so deeply disappointed in a Bernie Sanders presidency. They can dream whatever they want but the GOP would’ve absolutely melted down and said “we’ll shut the whole government down before we let this socialist do anything he campaigned on”
I think you’re partially right, but Sanders would’ve used the bully pulpit to constantly castigate GOPers standing in his way (remember this is before MAGAts got elected). I think Bernie is far more effective on messaging than most other dems simply bc he doesn’t give af about calling people out.
Liberals will still blame his (and Hillary Clinton’s) critics instead of the democrats’ bad policies and hubris for electing Donald Trump even though those same liberals still talk, think and act like republicans and willing just as much to throw the handicapped, the queer, the women and the racial minorities under the bus all just for neo-liberal policies that are not too different from Trump’s.
speaking of, much of what was done against abortion was not reversed and is destined to keep being dangled above those liberals’ head, and then they’ll say we shouldn’t criticize the holy neo liberal savior so he could reverse Trump’s clownery just for this to go all over again.
Genocidal Joe will not win another election. We need to be reacting properly to that simple fact. The Democrats will be directly responsible for both Trump presidencies.
You’re probably right sadly… People will blame that if Biden doesn’t get elected, but I don’t think it’ll sway things at all. Only the terminally online like us and redditors care about Palestinians.
Bringing back old characters is kinda cheap, but I’ll take it if only because it opens up the way for the zombie Lincoln that has been teased for so long.
Weird way to assign blame. It’s not the Democratic party’s fault for having bad policies, it’s the public’s fault for not supporting the Democrats regardless of their policies. If Biden loses it’s because his party made bad decisions.
It’s just how liberal centrists sheild themselves from self-reflection. They know there are people to their left, and engaging with their ideas might make them realize their policies and candidates cause harm, so they decide to dismiss them out of hand as aiding the right. This creates a safe narrative where they’re always the good guy; people to their right are dangerous lunatics, people to their left are naive fools who are unintentionally helping the lunatics, and they’re the only ones behaving responsibly. This allows them to condemn people calling for the end of a genocide without engaging with the fact that their candidate is enabling a genocide.
Sure, unless you want to be really picky. They had better options than Biden, at least. Their failure to develop a new generation of candidates is their own fault, though.
Yes, and it’s behind a vote for Trump. If you don’t want the genocide to continue, allowing Donald Trump to be president is literally the opposite of what you want.
Unfortunately neither of those people can actually win a general election right now.
edit: That you'd even suggest Jill Stein, who had her own Russian collusion affair or Cornel West, an extremely well-educated but easily stereotyped as "angry black man" as remotely having a chance of winning a general election is hilarious and shows just how disconnected from reality your thinking is. You're likely being played by Moscow right now whether you know it or not, comrade.
Oh I don't dislike the Russian people, or really any Slavic cultures. There's a lot of great food and literature and folklore from that area of the world, I can appreciate that.
I don't need proof? It's not a court of law. It's definitely enough for me to not support her though. And for me to know that she would lose again just like every other time she runs. Idealism is great my friend but you have to be realistic. Running the same failed candidate over and over isn't a winning move.
I appreciate that you took time to read some of the wiki I linked and learned the word "mcarthyist," Dr. Stein is free to file a libel lawsuit I guess, I'm sure she'll be as mad as you are.
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
And I sincerely hope enough voters realize that, because trump will be worse.
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
Unfortunately the DNC knows that while we say it’s unacceptable, we still have to vote Biden or risk trump.
Which is why the DNC has spent 30 years drifting further and further right. They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
I’m here because I like to discuss politics. However, just like Reddit…it seems as if this community only leans one way. Sorry to inform you that politics in America is very broad…it’s not just about Democrats and Liberals.
Not that i’m in favor of either of those two, particularly Jill Stein, but i think a slice of grilled cheese could beat Trump. As long as it has a reasonable campaign behind it.
This is honestly the best take on the issue I’ve seen so far.
I am the first person to say we need to break the two-party stranglehold on politics. We need independent candidates in office yesterday. But this election is the abso-fucking-lutely worst time to make a run at that, because that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump. And if you firmly believe that third party or independent politicians have a place, elect them to your local city council or school board or state legislature. That is where they will make a real, actionable difference.
A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump. No amount of TikTok “well ackshually” will change that reality.
The election is a tug of war. Trump and his supporters are pulling on the right. Biden and his supporters are pulling on the left.
When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump and redirecting that force towards a candidate who has zero chance of winning. A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
The only valid retort to this is “well I wasn’t going to vote anyway” and anyone who feels that way can shut the fuck up about everything.
It absolutely is. You’re removing a vote that could have been used to stop Trump and throwing it into a candidate who will not win. You are, quite literally saying, “I am completely fine with another Trump presidency”.
There you go again with no concept of how politics works in this country. You are either a shill, or a completely naive person. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is as effective as not voting in the national results. Can you at least see that? When electoral votes are tallied, and NONE go to a 3rd party candidate, those votes are wasted.
I wish this country had a different voting system other than first past the goal posts, but it doesn’t so you need to be realistic in your vote.
if voting for an independent candidate counts as not voting (that's a lie), and not voting is the same as voting for trump, does that mean that if i vote for trump, it is 2 votes? no.
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump. Voting for either of them is a vote for “I am not interested in what happens in this country, and sincerely hope Trump wins. Because instead of voting against him, instead I choose to throw away my vote by making some kind of ‘statement’ that will never be heard by anyone.”
You sound like a teenager who has no concept of how voting in this country works. Yes, voting for a 3rd party candidate is not literally a vote for Trump, but the net effect is EXACTLY that. You may as well write in Bernie Sandwrs for all the good it will do.
Don’t try and gaslight with your “SoUnDs LiKe VoTeR sUpPrEsSiOn” comment.
Which will remove yet another barrier to Trump becoming president.
I’m all for breaking the two-party stranglehold but do it in a local election where it will make a difference. This year is the absolute worst year to try a failed presidential run.
The rhetoric isn’t misleading. When voter turnout is low, ergo the total number of votes for Republicans and Democrats are low, Republicans fare better. The US uses a first-past-the-post system of voting which devolves into a two-party system. This means that voting for a third party removes votes from the total number of ballots cast for one of the two actual candidate parties, which means fewer votes for Republicans and Democrats, which usually benefits Republicans far more than Democrats.
All this to say that when you vote for a third party, Trump is more positively impacted than Biden, so you’re effectively increasing Trump’s chance of winning.
I agree with your general point that third party votes don’t matter nationally. This is kinda blunt, but you are making the false assumption that Party politicans are entitled to everyone’s votes. You can’t remove a vote that was never casted for a particular candidate.
“The rhetoric isn’t misleading.”
It is to me. A vote for an independent candidate does not in any way, shape, or form count as a vote for Trump. They are not the same thing.
It is a fact that a vote for an independent candidate is not tallied the same as a vote for trump. It is nonsense to say they are the same. It’s like saying a vote for Hawaiian pizza is a vote for Pepperoni Pizza. It is hokum.
Do you understand that some words mean something beyond their literal, exact definition? If someone says “it’s raining buckets”, would you come in and say “that rhetoric is misleading, I looked outside and no buckets are falling from the sky”?
Of course. The problem is that when someone says one thing is another thing, that is not obviously metaphorical. Maybe you’d be able to tell in person but not through text where the message is monotonized and broadcasted to the entire internet.
last election biden and harris were on the working families party line which is third party. i’m not sure this time around but do y’all even know how third party works?
Okay but it has. The party as a whole moves a glacial pace because the bulk of the population still holds the same neo-liberal beliefs that they did eight years ago, but the left has been very quickly (in political terms) growing and flexing its muscles, considering it’s a minority group. Give it time, these kinds of shifts can take decades.
There was a national poll a couple years ago that showed a majority (>50%) of people thought burning down the police precinct in Minneapolis was justified. If asked where on the political spectrum that position was before George Floyd was murdered i bet most people would have said extreme Left (or maybe extreme Right).
The country is, in a lot of ways, more ready to be Leftist than the Democratic Party and the Dems are really bad at capturing that energy.
They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things.
The far left / moderate left voters are captive for the reason you note. The party is closely aligned with center-left viewpoints, so they have their votes. The far / moderate right voters are all voting republican. It’s the swing voters / true centrists / center right voters who are up in the air, so those are the people the dems have to appease. So they drift further and further towards their viewpoints.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, too… but we can’t do that without accepting a republican president, which we certainly can’t do right now. So we’re stuck. And it’ll just keep happening that way, because as dems drift further left, the republicans are just falling off the right end of the scale, and they keep falling further every year.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things
Except the last time we had a true progressive campaign…
A lot of those 1/3 of voter showed up. And we flipped a bunch of “red states” that the DNC had given up on those.
It’s not that those people won’t vote, they just won’t vote for candidates like Biden and Hillary.
But they turned up for Obama in 08.
We found something that worked, and the DNC’s response was to tighten down primaries so there wouldn’t be another upset.
Which has progressed to them straight up removing an entire states delegates.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, to
I disagree.
I think if a moderate loses because they don’t get the progressive votes, then nothing will change. They’ll say that progressives are unreliable and this means they need to go further right.
Because we have decades of recent history that shows even if they still get the “lesser evil” votes, they’ll still say the same thing if they lose.
The only option is primaries, which is why I’m so pissed the DNC just vetoed a state primary by yanking delegates away.
If we don’t even have the primaries where the DNC openly say they can ignore results…
We’re kind of out of options.
And I legitimately don’t know what the path forward is. Or why everyone else isn’t shitting bricks right now.
If the DNC doesn’t get substantial pushback, they’re not going to just give up on this veto they just decided they’ll have.
Hell, Republicans will probably keep control of NH’s state goverment for the next four years, if they don’t agree to the DNCs demands about primary order, will NH Dems not get a say in 2028 either?
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
If they stop funding israel and stop giving them arms, would it not get those votes back? are all of you really thinking biden would risk trump winning by refusing to halt arms and cash to israel and let the UN come to a ceasefire resolution? if its so dire, i think THEY have a responsibility to us and the palestinians. for one, all the money going to israel could go to be put to fixing our infrastructure, not destroying gaza’s. two, aren’t we going to need all these missiles and bombs for when we inevitably go to war with russia?
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
but just like every other election cycle, they will get their votes, continue on w/ biz as usual and then try to win our hearts again and/or fearmonger us again at the next election. with aipac and other big money donors doxxing and ousting progressives, i don’t foresee a functional left after this election, regardless. however, people are mobilizing over this issue and rightly so, its fucking genocide. there is no acceptable amount of genocide and there is no justifiable reason to continue funding and arming it.
Then you better start pushing your party to primary him or get someone else in there. His shitty numbers didnt start overnight, theyve seen the writing on the wall and refused to acknowledge it.
Biden’s arrogance on this is incredible, though of course he’s part of the party establishment so that’s to be expected. “You aren’t allowed to complain about anything and if we don’t win this election it’s all your fault” is not, it turns out, a winning campaign slogan.
You could also argue, if Biden loses it will be because of his uncritical support for Israeli war crimes.
Nobody is forcing Biden to alienate his base.
And, although I personally don’t believe Joe is supporting genocide, it’s not very realistic to expect people to vote for someone who (in their mind) is supporting genocide.
I don’t think he has been, but that’s the perception among his base.
And having his base become apathetic is not gonna help him.
Trump is still managing to keep his own base energized, so they will definitely show up.
The independents and moderates have mostly decided they don’t want Trump, so Biden has them in the pocket, unless he really screws up the economy or does something else crazy.
Motivating the left flank to actually show up, that’s going to be his main challenge.
People broadly seem willing to see through statements the administration makes about Taiwan, but not about Israel. Then again, a lot of critical thought and nuance tends to go out the window when Israel is brought up.
Biden had historical turnout from young people. I think it was more based on Trump hate but still they helped. But you’re right, they’re a notoriously unreliable voting base.
Is that true? I thought they didn't end up showing up even though everyone thought they were. Maybe I a disillusioned by them not showing up for Bernie vs Biden in the last primary.
I mean, this IS the popular message. It isn't true, but it is the popular message, regularly amplified by the far left and the GOP alike.
The reality of Biden is that he's repeatedly pushed and campaigned for student loan debt forgiveness and has accomplished a great deal on that front even against a corrupt and entrenched conservative judicial apparatus preventing it. He's put a largely-young, massively diverse set of people in charge of the levers of the administrative state. He somehow got passed through a hostile congress the biggest piece of climate legislation ever, in the entire world. He got a huge consensus infrastructure bill passed, too, which in spite of its vast scope has someone gone COMPLETELY under the radar politically -- an accomplishment in its own right. He's had, frankly, a very successful term, all things considered. Better-liked presidents have done far less.
I'm not at all happy with the administration's words as far as the war on Palestine goes, but the oversimplifications aren't saving any lives over there either. And in terms of actual actions being taken... I've yet to hear someone make a convincing practical argument for what we could do to end the conflict and protect lives, setting aside all the discussions of pure ethics that these conversations usually are.
Similarly, I think it is damn time we get serious about supreme court reform. The institution is corrupt and has been for a very long time -- mostly always. But I am not going to say he's a total failure when he doesn't do it. It's morally right to do it. It should be done. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a bastard. And I know Biden won't because it would end him, politically, and the other progress is good and worthy of maintaining.
I'm inclined to agree, but I also don't know that a lack of munitions would definitely lead to less killing -- Israel is a nuclear state, after all, and they seem very inclined to murder Palestinians. A worse-armed Israel might conceivably be even more indiscriminate (as hard to imagine as that is), and I've not sat in those JCS or whatever meetings to know what the rational is.
Maybe Biden is just genuinely prescribing his pro-Israel political opinions on the entire foreign policy. That doesn't seem too likely, given that he's Mr. Compromise.
Maybe the foreign policy really is just that entrenched in orthodoxy. That always seemed most probable to me, that the idea of in any way blinking in the support is just unimaginable to the top State and actual brass.
Maybe the situation has more complex concerns than any of us know. That's pretty much certain.
As it is, I think Biden deserves heavy criticism for this foreign policy. It's more than just a bad look. Aiding and abetting a genocide is not acceptable, full stop. But the idea that he's not just failing to adequately stand up to it, but is indeed the cause of it is absurd, and either way one bad policy move shouldn't completely wash away all the other progress -- even though it does for so many people.
Personally, I like that he's being protested like this. I just wish the conversation would stop ink-washing his entire term, obviating everything good that has happened. He's not JUST the alternative to Trump. The IRA alone gives plenty of reason to earn a vote.
If we start a major world conflict right now I'm sure it will create sufficient distraction from climate change that your kids won't have anything to fight over.
Which is kind of back to my thesis -- respect and acknowledge the IRA. It's good shit that anyone who voted for Biden, even if it was just as a vote for "not Trump", should be proud of it. Demanding more like it.
It’s fine, these peoples’ conscience will be clean and that’s all that matters. To them.
I mean, they shouldn’t be clean as their non-action will just result in far more Palestinian bloodshed. But that’s not what matters to them. As long as they don’t have to feel bad about it and can say “well I didn’t vote for Trump or Biden, so I didn’t vote for genocide”
You’re a stupid motherfucker. Remember this comment when Trump wins because idiots like you. You will not get to say that what comes next isn’t on you.
You think things are bad in Gaza now? Just wait. Voting for someone that just ensures a Trump win doesn’t absolve you.
At least if we weren’t giving them weapons and money I wouldn’t feel culpable as an American. My vote went to Biden and now the blood of Palestinian children is on my hands, as it is all of us who voted for him.
They are just too stuck in their ways. I think that’s what it is. The political class in the US has been staunchly supporting Israel for decades without any push back through the fog of “it’s complicated” for oil and military presence.
But now that I and other Americans have looked into the situation there and the history, we can’t un-learn it. It’s the burden of knowledge. Now I understand why the UN and human rights organizations are always telling Israel to tone it down. He needs to at least stop helping them, at least show some backbone as Israel slaps us in our face as we politely ask if they can do a "two state solution, pretty please. Or kill less children pleeeese? "
This country is terrible. I hope something better rises out of the ashes and not just another huge authoritarian country like Russia.
Why is the blood on your hands? For voting for the guy who was less keen on killing Palestinians?
Do you forget that Trump intentionally and actively stirred the pot in the region? That he aligned himself with Bibi, not just Israel, because he likes tinpot dictators? Moved the embassy to Jerusalem just to stir shit up and make it messy? Appointed his son-in-law Jared Kushner in charge of peace negotiations because getting his special boy a cushy job mattered more than protecting life?
What could you have possibly done differently to protect life over there? Any other choice you would've made would've been a worse outcome for the region. THEN you would be culpable.
A vote is not some deep sign of moral commitment to the candidate. Get over yourself if you think it is. Votes are a commodity. You spend it to affect change. You don't always get great value on your money, but you have to min max.
Trump is definitely worse, but Biden is still not great on this issue and theoretically represents the voters because he was elected. That is, if we were a proper democracy, which I don’t think we are as much as I used to. There’s not enough choice. Which is kind of ironic because we love to brag about being a democracy and force it on other countries.
So yeah, the youth vote is absolutely critical if he hopes to win reelection, and turnout is a significant part of that, but the opinion of the youth, and further the opinion of the thin sliver of young people here on Lemmy, does not accurately reflect the opinion of the broader voting electorate. The fact is, people here care WAY more about the Israeli conflict than most of the rest of the country.
Oh piss off. Yours is infantile and naive, and you’re not even a voter. People stop taking you seriously when you make this shit personal, and your sentence would have conveyed the same meaning without the invective.
pandering to the elderly is not going to be a winning strategy.
But an analysis like this will only lead to losing.
Like what? Surveying likely voters? I pointed to actual poll numbers. The numbers are there if you care to look, and they’re likely the same numbers Biden’s team is reviewing to chart the best path forward in an election year.
The fact that you seem so unwaveringly sure of yourself without a shred of evidence makes me significantly less inclined to engage, by the way. I might not respond further, so if you don’t want to waste your time formulating another quippish, vapid response, don’t.
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!
No, if Biden loses, it’s because of foolish Americans who either voted for Trump or threw away their votes. What comes next with Trump is on their heads. You can’t not vote for Biden, then say what happens with Trump isn’t your fault.
Increasing funding to Israel, publicly say there is no red line Israel could cross where they wouldnt have US support, bypassing Congress 2 times to transfer weapons is unequivocally supporting genocide.
And then Trump will make things infinitely worse, and we’ll have to fight that same stupid battle over who’s to blame for the next 4 years. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Or they don’t want to vote for a pro genocide President. Tbh, I get it. Your vote is your stamp of approval for a candidate for a lot of people. It’s the only way to say their approval that a lot of people have, their only voice.
Your vote is a commodity. It's influence to be spent, and you should spend it wisely.
People who think their vote is some deep moral choice need to get over themselves. Try to affect the greatest positive outcome you can. A vote is not a formal, sworn endorsement of everything every checkbox on the ballot stands for. If it were, only the Trump cultists would ever be voting.
i’ve been watching this freight train loom ever closer and… thank you for seeing it too…
this is the albatross around the neck of biden… and it’s killing my soul
i know, in my heart, trump would’ve done the same thing, and many worse things…
but ffs, why are the liberals completely blind to a blatant genocide?
Yeah, I don’t understand hating Biden for something that Netanyahu is doing. And there’s only so much Biden could do other than try to play peacekeeper, which he’s been doing. Pretty much any other actions require congressional support. Biden isn’t a king, he can’t unilaterally declare that we’re ending all support for Israel.
And yet an insane number of people act like he’s over there killing Palestinians with his bare hands.
Not to mention Israel is absolutely the most important ally we have in the middle east. As lovely as it would be to openly shit on them and Saudi Arabia for being inhumane jerks, we just don’t have that option. The second we alienate Israel is the second WWIII becomes virtually inevitable. Biden’s choosing between shitty options and shittier options, and like it or not, we need foreign allies in strategic locations, especially since Pax Americana is rapidly collapsing.
If we helped set up a two state solution then we’d have another ally over there. Hell, if we had a one state solution, we’d have one more ally and one less genocidal apartheid state to leash. And tbh, it’s probably better we’re not over there fucking things up anymore.
I agree, and to be perfectly honest it’s maddening to see that we had SO many generations to make the 2-state solution happen and they’re still stuck in a bloodthirsty morass. I don’t disagree that there are certain benefits to not being the world’s police anymore, not least of which is avoided exhaustion from the ongoing moral hypocrisy, but I can assure you there are very real costs, too. We might not actually like a world with someone else as the police force, and by the time that happens, it’ll be too late for us to have anything to say about it.
Tbh the time with the US as the world police isn’t great. It’s great in the US because we don’t ever get attacked, can import the financial success from our victories, can come back home after and are basically naive to conflicts at home. But I don’t think they’d say the same for all of South America, Asia, the Middle East, or Africa.
I know China is spooky, but the US has destabilized so many democracies and ruined so many countries in its attempt to stop the spooky ghost of communism to keep its financial stranglehold on its imperial sphere that a multipolar world could be better. He waxes poetic about the time of peace from interstate conflict but ignores how the US has arrested the world from progress, trapping us in this late capitalist hell-hole the working class is in now. There’s still violence form the upper class on the poor, or the Imperial core on the third world.
I also noticed he links to an article on the USSR attacking countries but that doesn’t even compare to all the wars we’ve been involved in where we didn’t have to be, usually on the side of the colonial or imperial power or the dictator. And a lot of the military build up in countries such as the USSR, Cuba, or North Korea is in response to the US threatening war all the time during the Cold War and having the capability and will to enact it. They put forward the possibility of a first strike with nukes in all those countries. It was public knowledge that the US refused to live in a world with communism and even when countries would want it themselves without the USSR doing anything, the US would see that as a reason to interfere, trying to connect it to the USSR anyway. They’ve succeeded, but that doesn’t mean they’ve made the world better, just the US richer. Plus, a lot of the latent conflicts that are coming to the surface in that article are a result of Western interference in local, civil conflicts during the Cold War - such as the China-Taiwan or North Korea-South Korea ones. Not all, like the Serbia-Kosovo stuff, but a lot. Maybe if we had just left and stopped propping up local separatist movements things would’ve been calmer in some of those places, like in Vietnam right now.
Its definitely possible I’ll eat my words because the world is getting scary and chaotic, and I’m not sure how other powers will act without US restraint, but hey, maybe it won’t be worse. Maybe it’ll be better. God I hope so lol.
What a simply mornonic take. Trump literally tried to pull out of NATO, and he would kill support for Ukraine. There’s your genocide. Oh, and he wouldn’t handle the Palestine situation any differently, so make that 2.
Did you forget him putting kids in cages? I would also argue that getting Roe v Wade overturned is going to lead to the deaths of many women. But no point in arguing with you since you can’t seem to admit what a danger to the world Trump will be.
You mean the policy the Biden admin has continued to uphold and has considered making even more restrictive as a political negotiating tool? No, I remember quite well.
I don’t consider him a messiah by any means and would prefer a much more left-leaning candidate. That being said, I’m being realistic in that not voting for Biden is essentially helping Trump.
It doesnt get much worse than death. Liberals will justify any and every possible action to defend the blue fascist by claiming the red one could be worse. What happened to ‘push him left after the election’
I think left to your satisfaction would be little further than most everyone else wants him, tbf. lol You can’t acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though? Even like, a tiny bit?
Regarding Gaza, btw, they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide. There’s a whole lot of ways to do an ethnic cleansing, so, you can’t necessarily stop it just by stopping the weapons. It’s not that simple.
We’d have to sanction them or something, that’d probably do it.
No. Prior to Gaza, though Im very critical of him, I did acknowledge a few things. Once he prioritized additional money/weapons and refused a ceasefire while bypassing Congress to allocate more weapons, despite what Israel was doing, and pledging unwavering support. Any progress prior to that is irrelevant. Shipping containers had a higher priority than the lives of Palestinians,
they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide
While true, without access to US weapons, including white phosphorous which is restricted under international humanitarian law, it would be much harder to accomplish.
I disagree, I think it would be easier. I think they’d probably starve them all. Nothing short of UN sanctions could stop them.
People call it a siege, but its not a real one. It could be. Humans require 2000 calories a day, roughly.
And WP is frequently used in smoke applications, where it is permitted. It’s not completely banned. While I won’t say they aren’t misusing it to cause fear and suffering, it is a common tool employed by armies for use outside of deadly munitions.
At any rate, thanks for answering. I understand better.
Liberals are not that good at projecting outcomes, everything they claimed would happen under Trump if he won 2020 has come true under Biden. So I’ll take your projection with a grain of salt
The people pledging to vote against Biden over Israel are typically armchair politicians who get all their news from echo chambers. Facts and reality don’t matter; they honestly believe they are “sending a message” and “making a stand”. The reality is that they’re the 2024 version of 2016’s insufferable #voteswap techbros.
I’m talking about the ones who were going on about “if Bernie doesn’t win, I’m voting for Trump”. Heck, I wanted Bernie to win, but no way in hell was I going to vote for Trump.
I know that’s the cohort you refer to. The bigger factor are moderates within swing states. Look, I’m not saying progressive votes don’t matter. I’m a strong Bernie supporter and progressives as well myself. Clearly their votes do matter, and increasingly to the point where candidates can’t ignore them. But, at the time, it’s not them being the most influential factor.
I think taking the delegates from NH because moderates keep losing to progressives is a bigger deal that will effect turnout.
Biden’s and the DNC’s excuse that the state Dem party wasn’t able to convince the Republicans running NH into changing the law that NH has to schedule primaries first is an incredibly flimsy excuse.
There was nothing the NH Dem party could do to comply with the DNC.
And of all people, Biden should have been understanding that Dems can’t force Republicans to do something they don’t want to do.
Just making the demand to begin with was incredibly fucked up.
It was an impossible demand, and they act like it was an easy thing that the state party could somehow do with a snap of their fingers.
The only way it could have happened, is if the Dem party broke state law.
And a national party demanding a state party break their own laws to give the favored candidate an advantage is something I honestly thought would just be a Republican thing at least for a couple more elections cycles.
Oh look a concern troll that's sooooooo concerned about NH and state party rules. This person 100% actually cares and isn't just trying to suppress the left vote.
I’m concerned that the only other option in American politics besides trump just wiped out an entire states primary for something the state party can’t control…
If you’re not upset about what that means, I don’t know what else to say that wasn’t in my first comment.
I know you’re probably too young to know this, but you just described the American electoral process. This is how the incumbent advantage works. The overwhelming majority of the time, a party will not primary the incumbent candidate because it would be incredibly stupid.
Stop talking about it as if it’s in any way notable.
They repeatedly stopped Biden, who appeared frustrated at times, with chants that included “Genocide Joe” and “How many kids will you kill?” in opposition to his support for Israel in its war against Hamas in Gaza.
Biden supporters drowned them out the protesters with chants of “four more years” and “let’s go, Joe.”
He struggled to finish his speech, telling the crowd at one point, “They feel deeply.”
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