No enterprise is going to want to deal with that and realistically they’re the only ones with the pockets to fight that battle. Hope I’m wrong though. Microsoft needs a swift kick in the ass.
There’s no need to degrade performance to get a lawsuit, the simple fact of extrading data can get you in a tribunal, especially from customers with high privacy requirements, or with European sovereign clouds certifications
Or if CoPilot starts exfiltrating data to Microsoft so their server farms can ‘analyze’ it.
I’m not heavily involved in the space, but I’m given to understand that MS isn’t very clear about what happens to your data or how it gets used or shared.
Perhaps Microsoft will be smart enough not to allow the general public to query trade secrets or government data that’s been pulled via unwanted copilot integration.
But maybe the ongoing Russian hack of Microsoft will make it irrelevant, because the servers can be accessed directly.
Or perhaps at some distant time, Microsoft will roll out features or technologies developed using an internal version of CoPilot that has access to all data - including proprietary information from competitors.
And that’s not even counting what ISP’s will do if they find a way to analyze copilot traffic, or what state actors will do if they can set up MitM attacks for Copilot.
Honestly, I sort of fear the repercussions, but I look forward to the lawsuits.
Now, on the other hand, the number of breaches has gone way up recently. Microsoft has pushed AD and Exchange into the cloud recently. And they just had several instances where keys were stolen and passwords were left in the clear for months after they were notified, as well…
Well we have no solid evidence but it’s certainly within the realm of possibility.
Exchange allows users to access data and Microsoft services and it comes with good documentation and a whole slew of controls for org admins.
Active Directory provides authentication services, and it is mostly for your internal users (so they can access org services, including Exchange), but it’s very common to allow guests and to federate under certain circumstances, so your AD talks to their AD and external guests can authenticate and use resources that have been shared with them.
It is also well-documented with tight control in the hands of administrators.
Copilot is a black box. Their terms of service are vague. Microsoft’s responsible AI website comprises of marketing speak, no details, and the standards guide on the site is mostly questions that amount to “TBD”. Administrative ability to control data sharing is non-existent, not yet developed, or minimal.
We don’t know the scope of data gathered, the retention and handling policies, or where that data/any models built from that data are going to wind up.
My read is that they’re waiting to be sued or legislated before they impose any limits on themselves.
I’m already starting to transition to full Linux on my devices with the arrival of Windows 11 and Windows 10 reaching end of life in October next year. I never thought I’d see the day of this happening.
I doubt it. Regular folks are ignorant about those issues and what the technology involved implies. AI sounds cool until you realize every single action you take on your computer, every single word you say, everything you look at, is collected and sent to some machine which does god knows what with it.
That plus the ads. The fucking ads. I’m so god damn tl saturated of seeing ads everywhere. But apparently most folks have grown some kind of immunity to it??
My highly non-technical SO cursed Microsoft when they pushed that shit into her computer. She didn’t need to understand what AI means, it took space on her task bar and showed useless notifications. Making her annoyed by the space taken, disturb her focus and slow her computer.
She is stuck on Windows due to a tool she is dependent upon. Already asked me to install Linux on her computer once she have a replacement that will work on Linux.
Nah you’re not alone. I’ve despised ads in any form since I can remember. It should be forbidden to hijack my brain with manipulative intrusion. For me marketeers are the lowest and most worthless beings in existence. Humanity could really do better than this crap.
Some ads I really enjoy though. They’re not ALL bad. But it’s the quantity and how they’ve just become omnipresent. Especially with these god damn smart phones. Constantly trying to get our attention.
it’s becoming much much easier every year to switch to OSS alternatives or at least Linux compatible software. There’s basically nothing categorical that can’t run on Linux, even gaming is making tremendous strides.
There’s basically nothing categorical that can’t run on Linux…
From a desktop standpoint, I agree. From a business server infrastructure standpoint, I disagree completely. We run tons of software that doesn’t run on Linux. Maybe there are alternatives, but there are other aspects in play (integrations with other services, vendor pricing, etc).
Windows 10 reaches End of Support on October 14, 2025, unless you opt for the paid Extended Security Updates (ESU) program (prices not released, that I saw), which some businesses with “legacy” apps do.
In the spirit of these kinds of changes, I’d love to hear some honest Linux distribution recommendations. I’m leaning towards Ubuntu because it is the most widely advertised and UX focused from my perspective. But I’ve also heard good things about Arch. Any others I should be considering?
I’ll probably not go full Linux any time soon - I want at least one Windows OS to play games on - so whatever option it should be dual-boot friendly.
Don’t move to Arch. It’s a great distro don’t get me wrong but it’s not for someone who isn’t quite familiar with Linux. You need to choose every package on your system and configure it all… Give yourself some time to know Linux.
Ubuntu is a great distro with a great out of box experience. The company behind it though has been making some choices I don’t much care for so I’ve moved away from them. (They created a pretty crappy new packaging system, then started making the old, reliable packaging system use the new one without user consent)
OpenSuSe Tumbleweed is a great option. It has sane defaults, and nice versions of KDE and GNOME (two popular types of desktop environments, I’d recommend KDE if you’re new to Linux - it’s closer to the desktop philosophy you’re used to. GNOME is great too but it’s very opinionated and non-traditional, not for everyone.) It’s also a “rolling release” distro, which means there’s no big releases it just gets updated over time and provides you with very up to date packages. It’s known to be quite stable which is unusual for a rolling-release distro (like Arch, for example).
Fedora is also a great choice - just follow a guide on how to get some media codecs on it (Fedora is big on not including software that isn’t 100% open, but it’s easy to add the few things you’ll need). But it provides a great package manager, great KDE and GNOME versions, and all around very sane and stable. This is a traditional release distro with new versions every 6 months. You’ll still get security and minor software updates between releases.
Whatever you choose, I think you’d be very surprised at what you CAN play under Linux with no problem. Outside of a few games (mostly due to anti-cheat which unfortunately rules out some - but not all - of the more popular multiplayer competitive games) there’s really not much that doesn’t run on Linux already nowadays.
You do not need to “configure every package on your system” with Arch lol, that sounds more like NixOS. Arch is a totally fine distro for a new user who’s willing to read a bit of documentation now and then.
You don’t need to do any distro hopping or even care. Unless you picked a dead one or need something really obscure. They all have the same things and you can install anything on anything. Mostly. Difference is who’s doing your installer and packaging and security and how.
You can, if you want to. And live systems are handy. Try what your like. Learn to change what you don’t. All the tools and docs people have are out there for you and tens of thousands of people are busy making more.
Ubuntu Server = easier but with more bullshit out of the box (eg. snaps)
Debian Stable = a tad bit harder because it’s cleaner out of the box.
Fedora Server = clean and easy, documentation may be a bit harder to follow, less community tutorials.
Arch & others = Just no. You don’t want a rolling release for a server. You want older and thus stable, tested, software and drivers.
If you want a distro for general use:
Linux Mint = easiest of the bunch, but it has old packages that may not offer the best environment for gaming.
Fedora Based distros = middle ground between ubuntu based distros like Mint, and rolling release distros like Arch.
Arch based distros = bleeding edge drivers and packages (for better or worse), best for gaming. Manjaro could work for you, as it is not fully Arch.
Bazzite OS = It’s an immutable Fedora based distro but with Arch customized to make it work like Steam OS all inside a container. It’s unbreakable, easy to use, and game-ready. Has AMD & NVIDIA images ready to go.
My recommendation is to flash Ventoy on a thumbdrive load it up with all the recommended distros, and proceed to test drive the ones you think might work for you, and only time will tell which one is the best for your specific needs.
I use arch on a proxmox lxc in order to handle apps which does not have a debian repo. Using AUR saves me from manually recompiling/downloading on new releases. Wouldn’t use it for a server at work though.
I would replace Manjaro with Garuda in your recs, Manjaro will lead a new user into several thorn patches (way too easy to install from the AUR mostly, but the package update delay is also a pain with little justification)
If not vanilla Ubuntu, I’d still suggest trying an Ubuntu derivative like Linux Mint or POP! OS. Ubuntu has a huge community, so in the event you run into issues it’ll be easier to find fixes for it.
What you’ll find is that Linux distros are roughly grouped by a “family” (my term for it anyway). Anyone can (theoretically, anyway) start from a given kernel and roll their own distro, but most distros are modified versions of a handful of base distros.
The major families at the moment are
Debian: A classic all-rounder that prioritizes stability over all else. Ubuntu is descended from Debian.
Fedora: Another classic all-rounder. I haven’t used it in a decade, so I won’t say much about it here.
Arch: If Linux nerds were car people, Arch is for the hot rodders. You can tune and control pretty much any aspect of your system. … Not a good 1st distro if you want to just get something going.
There are many others, but these are the major desktop-PC distro families at the moment.
The importance of these families is that techniques that work in one (say) Debian-based distro will tend to work in other Debian-based distros… But not necessarily in distros from other families.
ThinkPads allow to use two M.2 SSDs (other one via WWAN card slot), so check laptop options like that. Business grade machines will always be your best bet, no matter how worse they get, since they have to be superior to consumer grade machines.
Debian stable on servers. Debian testing on the daily driver.
Gives you a rock solid server, that will pull absolutly no suprises.
And your daily driver gives you a playground for what comes in the next upgrade.
Linux Mint. That’s always the answer. It’s lightweight, it’s simple, it’s easy, it does what you need. Even gaming. SomeOrdinaryGamers did a vidso on YT about installing it, it’s pretty easy!
Like Ubuntu, I like that Fedora is backed by a big company. Fedora is quite good at pushing the Linux ecosystem forward and often adopts and pushes new technology before other distros (flatpaks, Wayland, pipewire, btrfs etc.) that all Linux distros eventually benefit from.
Ubuntu on the other hands seems to want to be the Microsoft of Linux… which is not a compliment. I’ve been put off by things like their pushing of snap packages.
I personally like the stock gnome (on a laptop) or kde (on a desktop) desktops over the cinnamon mint desktop (but mint is closer to windows). Fedora is pretty close to stock (gnome by default).
Fedora has great flatpak integration for installing apps (think App Store) which is my preferred way to do it. Mint has this as well.
Fedora also has semi rolling releases and constant updates, which I prefer over Linux Mint’s 2 year release cycles (this doesn’t matter for any software you install from flatpaks).
Red Hat burned all the bridges when they pulled the rug on CentOS. I admire and commend the open source community on Rocky but they still depend on Red Hat source code, which has been apparently harder and harder to grab.
I’d rather move to Debian, thank you very much. Which we have and went very smoothly. Only a couple of servers left!
In the spirit of these kinds of changes, I’d love to hear some honest Linux distribution recommendations. I’m leaning towards Ubuntu because it is the most widely advertised and UX focused from my perspective. But I’ve also heard good things about Arch. Any others I should be considering?
Depends on your needs and preferences. If you want an easy Linux distribution Linux Mint is a good choice. Arch Linux is indeed good but default Arch is not that suitable for new Linux users unless you’re willing to read documentation. You can go for Garuda or EndeavourOS to have Arch with easy installers and GUI.
I would top off with this advise: don’t stress too much about the first distro you pick. It will likely not be the right for you anyway. You don’t know what you like yet…
You’ll learn a lot about Linux along the way and eventually you know what you like and don’t like, therefore choosing the right distro for you at your second attempt.
That being said, I don’t recommend Arch Linux for the first timers haha
Given that this is in a thread about Microsoft Server, I’d recommend using Debian as the distribution to replace Microsoft Server.
If you want a desktop, I’d start with a LiveCD version and familiarise yourself with the various available distributions on offer.
The intent of a LiveCD is essentially to boot into Linux without modifying your hard-disk and keeping your existing OS unchanged.
I’ll note that many of these images are available for DVD or USB. Some will offer a mechanism to store data on your existing drive without wiping anything.
With USB drives being fast and cheap, you can also often use a LiveCD to install onto an external drive.
Finally, you can install a virtual machine on your computer and use it to run your Linux tests.
Are you looking for a Windows, server, replacement or desktop replacement? Your experience will differ depending on which one you’re trying to replace.
For instance, if you’re trying to replace Windows active directory services with a single Linux server, might have a bad time. I’m in the process of migrating from AD to FreeIPA, PowerDNS, and isc-dhcp (or something similar for DHCP).
“Dual boot friendly” means installing Linux on its own hard drive, just so you know. If you don’t do that, it’s likely the next Windows update will screw up the Linux bootloader. Maybe that’s gotten better, but it’s what I’d recommended from past experience.
I would go with Linux Mint if you don’t want to tinker with it much, but Arch will allow you to be in the bleeding edge easily if you install things from the AUR but you could stay in the stable channels as well.
Regarding games, I’m mostly a Single Player kind of guy and basically everything I have tried so far just works if it’s installed from Steam, for others you can use Lutris or Heroic Launcher but tinkering might be needed.
All of this just to say: I use Arch btw. It’s been practically 2 years already since I haven’t boot into Windows for gaming.
If you want something a little more fresh, I’d maybe avoid Arch as your first go and try openSUSE Tumbleweed. It strikes a balance between bleeding edge and stable (they call it “leading edge” I believe). Everything is tested before release and isn’t too stale like Ubuntu/Debian flavors. I personally like KDE for the desktop environment but the installer lets you choose.
If you want to stick with Ubuntu or something similar, I’d recommend Linux Mint. I used it before switching to openSUSE.
Most options should be dual boot friendly but I’d recommend installing Windows first to avoid bootloader issues.
Personally I think a new user will actually have an easier time with Arch, because when they inevitably do need to look up help, it’s much easier to find relevant forum posts (not to mention the excellent wiki) for Arch then openSUSE. Their documentation is good, don’t get me wrong, but they have a far smaller community. I also found the package ecosystem more confusing than most – the package manager is very powerful, but at the cost of intuitive functioning.
I do agree that the Arch wiki is amazing. I even consult it from time to time. However, a first time user may struggle with a lot of configuration and tinkering that’s required. Many people direct users to the AUR. While also great, it can be a huge risk when things are done without extreme caution.
Also, openSUSE is setup with btrfs and snapper for easy rollbacks in case any updates break anything.
You’ve heard good things about arch solely because you’re on Lemmy. Using arch means you’ll be dedicating about 50% of your working time towards tinkering and making it fucking work, which is fun don’t get me wrong- unless you have actual work to do.
Ubuntu is solid but a little sluggish, I’m personally an advocate for Mint as far as something you can drop a windows users in and they’ll generally figure it out.
50%?? Been daily driving for over a year and system maintenance is nowhere near the levels it’s hyped up to be. Every once in a while the update requires manual intervention which can be solved by reading the email arch sends out before any of these atypical situations (register to be on the mailing list). Other system set up tinkering is well documented in the arch wiki.
Anyone interested in playing games on Linux should be exploring a rolling release distro even if for nothing more than access to updated GPU drivers as soon as they come out.
EndeavorOS might also be a good option, from what I’ve heard. It’s Arch based, but easier to install and use. I recently switched to Garuda, also Arch based, but focused more on the gaming community.
I don’t get this. For each of my devices running arch, the only tinkering I’ve encountered were for nitpicky customizations I wanted, which I have to do on another distro. After the arch installation completes it’s given me a fully functional desktop
Manjaro is an okay middle ground. It’s got the benefits of Arch but a bit more stability. It still breaks, but maybe once a year. I get work done on it.
Manjaro fell out of popularity a few years ago – in addition to some drama with the handling of community donations, they do some weird stuff like hold back all Arch package updates by 2 weeks for “additional stability”… But really it’s just an extra 2 weeks where you don’t get potentially critical security updates. I also think the way they handle the AUR is reckless and leads new users to install unstable or poorly maintained packages without realizing it
It’s still a viable distro, but generally I think Garuda beats it in every category: still based on Arch with a focus on gaming, but without the useless delay or the other issues that Manjaro has.
The AUR was disabled by default on my install. I use flatpak for a lot of stuff so I’m probably pretty up to date with my most used programs. Where did you hear about this community donation scandal?
All the petty downvotes makes me think Lemmy has become a bit too much like Reddit. The whole “downvote everyone’s opinion that isn’t my opinion” is pathetic.
I don’t really care about what’s popular. With all my installed programs I use to get shit done, I can’t distro hop every other month like some people.
That’s a big exaggeration. Is Ubuntu a better choice for a newb? Yes. Do some people gravitate toward Arch because of the freedom in tinkering it offers? Also yes. But Arch has had simple graphical installers for years now, not to mention the wraparound distros like Endeavour that bundle extra software for a more complete OOTB setup. Arch is a viable choice for a new Linux user and really doesn’t require tinkering for a working setup.
Your opinion about Arch is outdated at best. I run Arch, and I don’t think I needed to do any tinkering in the last few months. For first time Arch users, I’ll recommend them to just use EndeavourOS. I have it on my laptop, and it’s basically Arch, but with a hassle free installation process.
Same for me, installed arch with archinstall, it installed faster than windows does, and I haven’t had to modify anything or tinker with anything. Even Steam games work out of the box with compatibility mode
Anyway, if you need it to run on a server, I don’t see why you’d need a DE. If you’re talking about the client, I don’t see why you’d need to run it on a server OS without a DE.
What the hell?!?!?! This is a server OS! It needs to be as light as possible and for the sake of server stability and security, admins carefully choose the installed apps. Microsoft can’t just install new applications on a whim.
People in this thread seem to be missing this point.
This is windows server, not windows 11. The consequences is not “I’ll have an annoying taskbar icon on my home computer”, this is enterprise level interference that could affect large systems and thousands of users.
Linux Mint isn’t an alternative to windows server.
For sure, if you need paid support (which if you aren’t a tech giant, a fledgling startup, or a system with no need for uptime metrics, you probally do) the you have:
SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (aka SLES and only still Libre option in this category unfortunately)
Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL)
Ubuntu are
if don’t need paid support then Debian, OpenSuse, Rocky, or Fedora are all good picks.
Almost any Unix can be an alternative for Windows Server. Never understood why it was used, other than tech illiteracy of lowly tech workers who only knew MS stack.
In addition, with all Microsoft’s faults they had a hell of a small business package for years. In a lot of small businesses, the current CIO came up during those times and dictates policy.
Plus there are a lot of VARs and MSPs who push MS due to favorable terms and kickbacks. Small and medium sized businesses who outsource IT go with whatever they’re told because they don’t have the expertise, time, or desire to explore alternatives.
Plus there’s a load of self hosted software for certain industries that only works on Windows servers.
Yep. I no longer have to administer Windows servers (everything I do is serverless these days) but I did for many years.
Adding anything to a server without vetting it against policies is a huge no no. Back when I was doing it, a big part of our monthly update deployment was updating the test environment first so we knew we weren’t about to break a bunch of shit for us and our customers. Not just “does this brick Windows server”, but “do our applications still function” (usually yes, but the answer was no on several occasions over shit smaller than this).
I don’t know what adding copilot does. Is it going to accidentally break some custom application by accident because it’s tied directly into the system? Is it going to report shit that I’ve already opted out of due to our data policies and possibly fuck up our audit compliance because of government regulations (defense, medical, and energy sectors have huge responsibilities in that area, just don’t ask how I know)? How does it interact with our in-house developed software?
Fuck, I dunno. That sounds like a nightmare for infrastructure and ops, several managers, government regulators, and a payday for legal.
We just saw an attempted hack from having the xz library loaded into OpenSSH via libsystemd. Linux kernel and glibc are large enough without adding yet another thing that’s contrary to the Unix philosophy.
I still have systemd on my distro because that isn’t my top priority. I respect the efforts of everyone trying to keep it out and wish them success. Same with every distro trying to use musl.
IDK. Yeah it’s somehow a controversial topic. I understand how people get heated because from my position it should be obvious. But I must think the convenience somewhat outweighs the downsides if I am still using it myself, so it’d be hypocritical of me to take an aggressive tone about it.
I use systemd on my daily driver. But I can still have Alpine or Void or others in VMs and on servers, I’m grateful those projects are making the choice to not require it.
I don’t even see a link. Though I guess I should look inside Microsoft Edge.
Edit: I cannot find anyway to get to it in either the desktop or Edge. I do not have a signed in Microsoft account on this machine, so that may be why I don’t see it. I’m not willing to sign in to see.
I have Server 2022 with a GUI installed on my laptop because it lets me use all the server features, play Windows games that use DRM and not spend time messing around with getting linux to run on a laptop. I have Linux on the laptop, but running inside VMs.
I still don’t want copilot installed. I can confirm it is installed on my Windows Server 2022 laptop. I don’t see any entry points on the desktop or start menu. I haven’t checked Edge yet.
I wonder if copilot is released to all update channels or if it is only on a subset?
The only self hosted NVR software I could find for my parents that has an accompanying phone app doesn’t have a Linux version: it’s Windows-only and the desktop GUI is required to set it up
I personally use Motion and Home Assistant at home, but I wouldn’t set up the same for other non-techies, IMO no point making yourself tech support where it isn’t necessary
Yepp I know - my preference leaned towards the server edition as it doesn’t include the unnecessary UWP apps installed with Win10/11, and has a much lighter footprint in comparison, resulting in less resource usage overall.
If these were Windows 7 or Windows XP days, a professional edition install would have sufficed for me tbh… but with all the Metro UI and additional telemetry in Windows editions after 8, it doesn’t seem worth the hassle.
When I need to log in and fix something now I really wouldn’t want to stare at a “please wait, we’re upgrading your apps” because some UWP update occured, or have the telemetry service gobble up idle CPU
It doesn’t contain UWP apps and stays on a stable version for years like Server OSs.
It’s like $130 for an upgrade license for it, or you can just run it without a license and the only downside is the watermark (that you can easily remove).
Microsoft has a whole suite of exfiltration tools such as telemetry and searchapp. Check out what searchapp does next time you search for anything. Those searches are going to microsoft online services, what about thr index?. So youve reached the tip of the of the spyware operating system.
I don't have a Windows 11 machine available, so I can't get you the exact command, but this should get you there.
It should remove it from all users on the laptop, and (hopefully!) prevent it from coming back:
Open Powershell and run: Get-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online | Where-Object {$_.displayname -like "*Copilot*"}
Copy the Package Name entry and run the following command, with PACKAGENAME replaced by what you just copied: Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage -online -packagename PACKAGENAME
As a student and programmer, I just installed debian few years ago and never thought about why I did that and why I haven’t returned to windows. For advance and light users linux is amazing with all these web based applications.
Add comment