@TonyStark Or they follow it with something so anodyne it's technically true but use it to shield themselves from recognising how much unconscious cultural antisemitism is influencing the rest of what they say.
@dukepaaron I have never been that big a fan of people, but now less than ever. There’s a tiny sliver of people in this country with common sense. It’s frightening.
@TonyStark :thinking:
"... criticize the state of Israel's policies toward Palestinians"
"...criticize the US's unconditional funding of the IDF to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars"
"...criticize Israeli razing and settlement building in Palestine"
These things are being described as "antisemitic" as a means to silence criticism of a state taking extreme violence to an entire ethnic group. Regularly.
@smeg@TonyStark I've been criticizing the government of Israel for a long time now. (I also criticize the US government. Governments are often cruel.) There are situations where you can make that statement; but there are a whopping lot of folks who use Tony's opening phrase the same way old Uncle Whosis says, "I'm not racist, but..."
@chiasm@smeg I would bet some serious money that I’ve criticized Netanyahu and his administration more than most people and probably more than whoever wrote this goofy reply about what they think antisemitism is.
Every time a Jewish person speaks on this platform now, someone rolls up to explain to them why they can’t talk about antisemitism.
It’s annoying and nutty and I’m not putting up with it.
@smeg I’m not doing that and literally no one has. These ideas that people call critical talk about the Israeli government being called antisemitism exist only in your own mind.
@smeg Anti-Zionism isn’t simply criticism of Israel. It’s much more complicated than that and your need to goysplain it at me proves you’re worthy of a big fat Jew block.
The expansion of Israel into territories it does not currently control, and whose local population do not consent to be ruled by it, being justified under a vision of a non-inclusive ethnostate under the pretext of ancient history.
I think declaring independence was right for Israel to do as the Mandate was winding down, but everything that has happened since then has been a shitshow. And Israel's ambitions are not dissimilar to those of white nationalists in the US.
@smeg@TonyStark what if I told you that zionism is merely the right of Jews to self-determine in parts of their ancestral lands, and that the majority of Jews are opposed to the West Bank settlements?
The reason why our hackles are raised by this is that people frequently mistake criticism of Israeli policy in the West Bank and Gaza for anti-zionism. It's not - anti-zionism calls for the abolishment of the entire state of Israel, with no regard for where the millions of Jews living there would go.
It was colonialism. To be fair, it's the result of British Colonialism, using the Jewish population as the "middle class" between the british rulers and the "natives" (modeled on South Africa, India, etc). Like I said, declaring independence was the right move given the context.
ancestral lands?!!!!! Do I have an ancestral claim to lands along the Baltic because my Germanic ancestors lived there 1700 years ago? Can I settlement build in Poland?
@smeg@TonyStark is there some kind of time limit on living in your ancestral lands? Also, have your ancestors suffered repeated displacement and genocide over thousands of years?
I think if the state that has caused the harm still exists, it should rectify it. The United States and slavery reparations, or native Americans, are good examples.
But the Roman Empire dissolved over a millennia ago. And the harms done by other nations (European, Levant, et al) should be made right by those nations.
And none of it should be at the expense or genocide of the people who have lived in that place for generations. New displacement doesn't solve old.
@sonyablanck@smeg No concern for Jewish displacement? Again, your problem with things is really apparent. And none of this is particularly relevant as a comparison. The situations are not related.
@sonyablanck@smeg I mean, I shouldn’t have to explain to a person spouting so much “history” that the situation of Indigenous People in the U.S isn’t the same and probably shouldn’t be brought up here as some token to make your crappy opinion seem better. That’s not happening.
To take an area of land that was, a little over a century ago, majority Arab, and had been for over a millennia, and declare that all Arabs there must be displaced or extinguished, is deeply problematic. That has been official Israeli policy since shortly after independence.
If all of the apartheid policies and settlement building by the Israeli state ceased, and obviously the current violence, then I would be satisfied. Israel does not acknowledge Palestinian humanity
@smeg@sonyablanck You have no idea what you’re talking about. There’s no sense in continuing to interact with someone who 1, dishonestly represented my words repeatedly (and still has a post up to that end) and doesn’t have any sense of real history and events. Try not reading Dennis Prager for starters. Blocked.
@smeg@TonyStark 'To take an area of land that was, a little over four centuries ago, majority Native American, and had been for many millennia, and declare that all Native Americans there must be displaced or extinguished, is deeply problematic. That has been official American policy since shortly after independence.'
Just saying, by that logic a sizeable percentage of the hundreds of millions of people living on Turtle Island should fuck off. It's a lazy take completely ignorant of the realities of immigration and co-existing valid claims to indigeneity for any given piece of land.
@sonyablanck@smeg I’m done talking to him. I’d say “incredibly misinformed” but it’s very believable now how embedded the antisemitism and misinformation are around on the left.
Ugh…total misuse of it. I had one post go viral and after I posted about it more information appeared because the source of the information explained what they meant. I added an edit explaining that addition and it went out to everyone that boosted it. I thought that was a great use of the feature.
@Bam@TonyStark@sonyablanck if I want to add content I'll write "Edit: content." But I love the edit button because I have fat thumbs and spell shit weird all the time.
@Bam@sonyablanck Yeah - that would be. When I edit, I carefully add an explanation to it, either in a second toot right under the first or inside the first if I have enough characters. Too many dishonest folks now. What needs to happen is for administrators to make it clear how to use the feature in an honest manner. You can’t even report it unless you get a screenshot and even then, a lot ignore the problem now in favor of maximum user numbers. I hate seeing it.
So many things are open to abuse. A Black poster that I followed told me about how the “followers only” feature was being used to abuse Black folks and explained exactly what those horrible posters were doing to engage in that abuse. I was shocked someone even thought of using the feature that way because, well, I’m not an asshole that would ever think about doing it. 🤷♂️
@Bam@sonyablanck I’m sure without even looking that people would do that to abuse Black users here. The anti-Blackness here is well known. And still here.
Trying to intellectualize antisemitism via ahistorical takes with misuses of buzz phrases like colonialism to refer to indigenous people and apartheid to refer to noncitizens (when citizens of the same background have equal rights) while also asserting that Israel (who makes evacuation calls, leaflets civilian areas, and knocks before striking) has no regard for Palestinian lives when jihadism, such as that practiced by Hamas, sees their lives as unimportant enough to be martyrs for their fundamentalist Islamic cause is peak Blue Anon.
I have a something for you to consider:
You are arguing with a Jew about the definition of antisemistism.
Would you argue with a BIPOC about the definition of racism? If not, what is the difference. Think about it.
(and no, don't get back to me with your response, just think)
There are currently 2 million Arab-Israelis descended from Palestinians who didn't heed the call of the Arab League to evacuate. They are of course subject to prejudice, but are equal in the eyes of the law.
Why are Jews obligated to trust the many, many countries who have attempted to exterminate us within living memory? Why must we be beholden to our oppressors when literally all we want is self-determination and to be left alone and not murdered? And if you're suggesting a Jewish state anywhere other than the land where we previously had a Jewish state, where would you have us go?
@sonyablanck@smeg People who want Jews out of the only Jewish state in the world are pretty interesting.
You're less likely to get Jews to agree to leave Israel than you are to see all of Manhattan turned back over to the Lenape for $24 (or even $24 scaled up by a factor of 1000 to take into account NPV).
@emilyk@TonyStark@sonyablanck@smeg that’s a big statement. Many countries had much bigger boundaries than currently accepted. Tibet should own most of China? Rome can claim Western Europe? Russia can go back to the USSR borders because they put up statues?
@emilyk@markmason@sonyablanck@smeg Mark- where are you at? Feel free to return to wherever your ancestors’ original boundaries were. If that’s how you’re going to play it, at least be consistent.
Not that Jews don’t have roots there. They do. But the world would fall apart in 2 days if that’s the standard you’re going to use.
My apologies. You did not say it was entirely unacceptable. You just said the chances are pretty high these days to be defending something antisemitic.
But the effect is the same. Just as the effect of the Congressional resolution against anti-Zionism. Silencing criticism
Per the article:
"There are many antiracist ways to criticize Zionism, and there’s a long, rich history of such that comes from myriad religious and political quarters of the Jewish community itself."
@smeg@TonyStark You don't get to define antisemitism unless you're Jewish. Period.
Doesn't matter if a Jewish person says exactly the same thing you just did. Let THAT Jewish person speak. It is not up to you. The job of a non-Jewish person is to listen to other Jewish people and their experiences of antisemitism. Not to "WELL ACKCHULLEEE" away their lived experiences.
With respect, I reject this unless I'm missing something. Some Jewish people define antisemitism as condemning the current genocide by Israel. I reject that.
"You don't get to define antisemitism unless you're Jewish. Period."
No Jewish person says "condemning the genocide Israel is doing is antisemitic."
Because they're not going to say "Israel is committing genocide." Your disagreement isn't even over antisemitism, it's over Israel. Now, they might say "criticism of Israel defending itself is antisemitism." And they would be correct, a hyperfocus on Israel's actions as the only Jewish-majority self-determined nation-state is in fact, antisemitic.
but your disagreement isn't the definition of "antisemitism." Your disagreement is over Israel.
"the Israeli Prime Minister uses antisemitism as a weapon to discredit political opponents. “This means that the term has lost its impact and, when there is explicit or indirect antisemitism, as we are seeing in the pro-Palestinian demonstrations, it is not recognized as such,”
"It is this conflation between Israel and Judaism, one that is baked into the foundation of Israel and perpetuated by its leaders, that leads to a problematic tautology: Israel’s leaders represent all Jewish people, and thus by definition any criticism of Israel must be criticism of all Jewish people — and hence antisemitic."
@Greengordon@emilyk It took you that long to find and there’s still not an example of anyone saying it? Just a guy saying that it would be IF anyone said it? No one has said it. Cripes. Give it up.
@Greengordon@emilyk@TonyStark I know a lot of Jews and not one of them has ever said anything about unconditional support for anything. Including Israel.
Israel where an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews want their government jailed (and even more diaspora Jews agree with them).
If the magical Jew you shitheads on the internet fictionalize constantly actually existed (other than some fringe internet posts or gotcha social media hounds) more Jews would have met them.
“No Jewish person has said the condemnation of genocide is antisemitic. And I now understand the dangers of inserting myself into discussion that isn’t mine to have.”
We Jews can debate among ourselves what constitutes antisemitism. Gentiles have every right to take positions about the behavior and policies of the state of Israel or any other state.
@Greengordon@emilyk What you don't have the right to do is decide what is and is not antisemitic, any more than you get to tell a trans person what is and is not transphobic or a Black person what is and isn’t anti-Black. That’s not your conversation.
This plays right into the hands of white supremacists. Let me replace one word for you:
"What you don't have the right to do is decide what is and is not [antiwhite], any more than you get to tell a trans person what is and is not transphobic or a Black person what is and isn’t anti-Black. That’s not your conversation.
@Greengordon@nicholas_saunders@emilyk I can’t say anything about other platforms. I have an Instagram account I use for following entertainment purposes only. No politics.
But on this platform, scratch and anti-Zionist and find an antisemite, every time.
@Greengordon@nicholas_saunders@emilyk I can’t say anything about other platforms. I have an Instagram account I use for following entertainment accounts only. No politics.
But on this platform, scratch an anti-Zionist and find an antisemite, every time.
This is probably the most antisemitic thing I've seen on Mastodon. Your hatred for anti-Zionist Jews is so evident. You simply can't tolerate the fact that we exist, we have historic roots, and we are growing.
I am proudly Jewish and advocate anti-Zionism. I do not resort to antisemitism in my arguments. If you think anti-Zionists are somehow by definition antisemitic, that is complete mishegas ("nonsense" in Yiddish in case you don't know the daily language of my ancestors). But it is dangerous mishegas because it perpetrates hateful stereotypes about Jews (i.e. that we all support the recent Zionist experiment in Palestine)
What I've noted is that individuals like this lovely individual @nus who purport to be antizionists can only make these arguments by unilaterally limiting the scope of context and are unable to answer simple questions, such as was posed to him:
what military action would've been acceptable?
The Fediverse is a subset. Perhaps ask your question differently for a more full answer
Your problem is that you link the argument about how much force is acceptable to antisemitism. It is antisemitic to identify criticism of Israel with antisemitism. We Jews do not all support the recent Zionist experiment so your conflation of the two is bigoted.
What I've noted is individuals who advocate the one invariably advocate the other, which is a significant distinction from how you've characterized my words.
Definitely elaborate on what you mean by force being acceptable to or for antisemitism.
Your use of the word "invariably" reveals your hatred of Jews. Many Jews advocate anti-Zionism and do not advocate antisemitism. Your refusal to understand this evidences your own anti-Jewish bigotry. Particularly if you are not Jewish, it is highly offensive
I posted several links today where some do conflate antisemitism with any criticism of Israel. Some of the Israeli government are pretty hard core. The links are from the CBC (I think) you want to check out what they're reporting. Eg:
Because I haven't explained how to fix a bad situation? If that's the case, I guess you're a sinophobe because you haven't described in intricate detail how China should deal with their so-called terrorism problem in Xinjiang.
If the IDF dropped nuclear weapons on Gaza, and you objected, would it be anti-Semitic? Further, would it be anti-Semitic if you objected but declined to identify which actions short of nuclear war you would endorse?
On the pro-Zionist side: Rudy Giuliani calls himself more Jewish than a Jewish man, Elon Musk wears IDF dog tags while not apologizing for boosting the antisemitic Jewish Question conspiracy, IDF soldiers gun down Jews holding a white flag.
@emilyk NOPE. He just posted an article at me it looks like it took him a long time to find that quotes someone saying IF people started saying all criticism of Israel was antisemitic, that would be a problem.
Still no examples of who he thinks said it. I think he’s just a jackass who’s himself a Jew hater looking for cover. I’m blocking him now then.
@emilyk What typically happens now is that the account goes and posts something about us that totally misrepresents what we told him and says something like “bad Jews.”
“No Jewish person has said the condemnation of genocide is antisemitic. And I now understand the dangers of inserting myself into discussion that mine yours to have.
We Jews can debate among ourselves what constitutes antisemitism. Gentiles have every right to take positions about the behavior and policies of the state of Israel or any other state.
@emilyk@Greengordon@smeg With respect also, it’s not your conversation to have. I have yet to meet these alleged Jews who say that, even though I’ve asked at least 40 times for an example.
Leftwing Jewish activists campaigned against Israel’s bombardment and blockade of Gaza this week in Washington, culminating in protests that have seen hundreds arrested for civil disobedience outside the White House and Congress.
But groups like the Anti-Defamation League have dismissed the actions as unrepresentative of fellow Jews,
@Greengordon@emilyk And who said condemning a genocide was antisemitic? Because that’s what you said and you haven’t answered that. That’s what I asked you.
@TonyStark It might depend on if you make broad negative generalizations about a (religious) group or if you are criticizing specific actions made by certain specific people/State who belong to a the larger religious group. 🤔
@TonyStark
It's not antisemitic to highlight the fact that Israel has killed more children in Gaza since the start of October than Russia has killed children in Ukraine since 2014.
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