immibis, to Germany

Did just defend itself at the ICJ by saying " has a right to exist"? Yes. Yes it did.

@israel @palestine

nicholas_saunders,

@immibis @israel @palestine well, that's a question which Arafat declined to answer in the positive.

Asked differently:

what military action in response to the would meet with your moral and legal standards?

Because, dollars to donuts, you would have had Israel lay down its arms on Oct 7. Tell me I'm wrong.

aral, to Israel
@aral@mastodon.ar.al avatar

“Anyone who can countenance deliberate starvation has lost their humanity.

Prime Minister Netanyahu, the Irish people could not be clearer. We are repulsed by your actions. Cease fire now and let the aid flow safely.”

– Simon Harris

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0406/1441986-fine-gael-ard-fheis/

nicholas,

@zleap @aral what military action in response to the would've met with your moral and legal standards, though?

mondoweiss, to Palestine
@mondoweiss@social.mondoweiss.net avatar

The events of recent days suggest we may be seeing the Israeli endgame take shape. Netanyahu's far right government’s goals are not limited to Gaza: it wants to take over all of Palestine and start a war with Hezbollah and Iran as well.

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/netanyahus-endgame-and-the-israeli-far-rights-regional-ambitions/


@palestine @israel

nicholas,

@KarunaX @faab64 @palestine @israel @mondoweiss is there any military action in response to the that would have met with your high moral and legal standards?

nicholas_saunders, to random

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-israel-to-inform-icj-it-is-complying-with-orders-handed-down-in-genocide-case/

"However, the court did not take the action most desired by South Africa..."

Were #hamas serious about addressing #genocide they'd demonstrate that they possess the courage of their convictions by showing their face at the #icj in #thehague .

Because #lawfare cuts both ways.

nicholas_saunders,

@blepharon @GeriatricGardener remain ignorant no longer in what regard? No one has disputed that Hamas won the election. That one, sole election.

Without a doubt the success of the in creating martyrs and rallying international support is why they're so clear as to their intention to repeat the operation until it's .

None of which prevented South Africa from bringing Hamas into the ICJ.

Hamas is riding high. More popular than ever.

other_ghosts, to palestine
@other_ghosts@kolektiva.social avatar

Purportedly an article about the IDF targeting humanitarian aid convoys in Gaza, the author and the US mouthpiece being quoted nevertheless tie themselves into absurd knots trying to blame the lack of basic necessities in Gaza on "desperate Palestinians," "criminal elements," and, of course, Hamas.

Reuters:
"Israel Struck Palestinian Police Escorting Gaza Aid, Says US Envoy"

'Satterfield said the U.S. was working with the Israeli government and military to determine "what solutions can be found because everyone wants the assistance to continue."

'In addition to the threat posed by criminals, aid distribution is hampered by "the rising value of humanitarian assistance" leaking into the black market, Satterfield said.

'He denied allegations that Hamas has stolen aid and commercial shipments into Gaza, saying that no Israeli official has presented him or the Biden administration with “specific evidence of diversion or theft of assistance."

'But, he continued, Hamas has been using other aid delivery channels to "shape where and to whom assistance goes."'

@palestine

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-16/israel-struck-palestinian-police-escorting-gaza-aid-says-us-envoy

nicholas_saunders,

@KarunaX @other_ghosts @f800gecko @palestine I don't know that I've even advocated "for" witholding aid -- and if I did, then I misspoke. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point to where I've advocated for this.

You're quite fond of putting words in my mouth for your own interpretation.

Aid is for civilians.

Certainly I'm no fan of the but I don't accuse you of advocating murder and kidnapping.

You are opposed to murder and kidnapping, right?

Miro_Collas, to Palestine
@Miro_Collas@masto.ai avatar

Israel appears to be in breach of ICJ orders on Gaza, senior UN official says | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/israel-appears-to-be-in-breach-of-icj-orders-on-gaza-senior-un-official-says

I like how they keep pussy-footing round things: "appears to be".




@palestine

nicholas_saunders,

@SWLABR @ridicol @Miro_Collas @palestine then what military action would've been a legal response to the ?

nicholas_saunders,

@ashar @palestine @Miro_Collas @LeftistLawyer @LALegault I'll check it out, but, as you say, that's an advisory opinion only.

Consider an earlier post of mine:

https://mastodon.social/

where the source makes a few key points which I'll amplify. Lacking the courage of their convictions, Hamas chose to not show their faces at the ICJ. Secondly, that a unilateral ceasefire incentizes another . And then one more. I'm sure that you can see where that's going.

Miro_Collas, to Palestine
@Miro_Collas@masto.ai avatar

Saudis Contradict Blinken: Want Actual Palestinian State now, not Vague 'Peace Process'
https://www.juancole.com/2024/02/contradict-blinken-palestinian.html

"The Kingdom has communicated its firm position to the U.S. administration that there will be no diplomatic relations with Israel unless an independent Palestinian state is recognised on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital..."


@palestine

nicholas_saunders,

@GhostOnTheHalfShell @Miro_Collas @palestine it's far from a do or die situation for Hamas:

https://mastodon.social/

Arguably, it's a do or die situation for Israel. I'd say instead that they're on the horns of a dilemma. Assuming that the comes down against them, the question raised is what military response to the next operation would be legal.

Which I've not heard anyone address.

The strategy of Hamas is to repeat their recent success.

aral, to Israel
@aral@mastodon.ar.al avatar

Israel—a terrorist state committing genocide in Palestine backed by the US, Canada, and the UK—has just destroyed the office building of the Belgian Agency for Development Cooperation in Gaza as retaliation a day after Belgium announced it would continue to fund the vital humanitarian work of UNRWA.

Belgium is a member of the EU and NATO.

https://partyon.xyz/@nullagent/111859218913958892

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/belgium-to-summon-israeli-envoy-after-its-development-agency-in-gaza-completely-destroyed/

nicholas_saunders,

@RD4Anarchy @thetechtutor @aral

Where you write "...face the truth of what Israel is doing," you don't specify what military action would've been legal following the operation.

RD4Anarchy,
@RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social avatar

@nicholas_saunders @thetechtutor @aral

>>...you don't specify what military action would've been legal following the operation.<<

My criticisms of Israel are not based on rule of law.

Focusing specifically on a hypothetical response to that particular event alone ignores the long history of Israel's occupation, oppression, apartheid, and its part in creating Hamas in the first place.

As someone who is not a military planner I'm not sure what the point would be of my speculation. But I do insist that Israel should not be killing children and other innocent people.

I may not have all the military-grade answers on how to defend against terrorists without killing kids but I'm pretty sure that dropping 2,000 lb dumb bombs in crowded civilian neighborhoods (for example) does not show genuine intent to limit civilian casualties. I've also watched videos of Palestinians with white flags, even following IDF instructions, being shot down in cold blood for no legitimate reason. I might suggest that's another thing that should stop.

nicholas_saunders,

@RD4Anarchy @thetechtutor @aral

Where you write that "focusing specifically on a hypothetical response to that particular event alone ignores the long history of Israel's occupation...," you've both dodged the moral question of:

What military action following the would've met with your personally high moral standards?

As well as setting the context as not just as Arafat has sought, but what now South Africa would seek.

nicholas_saunders,

@RD4Anarchy @thetechtutor @aral so absolutely no response as to what military action following the operation would've been either legal or moral, then.

nicholas_saunders,

@RD4Anarchy @thetechtutor @aral I asked you one question. One.

You declined to answer on either a moral or legal basis.

Here is the question:

What military action would've been legally or morally acceptable to your high standards following the operation?

You've dodged this question.

It's a very reasonable question. Your inability to form a coherent reply isn't terribly interesting.

No nations. No borders. That's not an answer but a dodge.

nicholas_saunders,

@RD4Anarchy @thetechtutor @aral

"Morally I reject states so there is nothing a state could do militarily that I would consider moral."

What you've actually advocated for was no military response to the operation with this statement.

And, yet, you've in no way, ever, said that the Al Aqsa Flood itself was immoral.

I would point out that is a state actor, but you've already explained that legalities hold no interest for you.

banned_tweets_of_john_cusack, to Meme
@banned_tweets_of_john_cusack@mastodon.social avatar
nicholas_saunders,

@morpheo @rad @Elischa @banned_tweets_of_john_cusack @palestine notably, morpheo, you cannot acknowledge that a cease fire of Oct 6 was broken on Oct 8 in , which is why you're unable to say what military response would be legal for their next such promised action.

nicholas_saunders,

@AutisticMumTo3 @morpheo @rad @banned_tweets_of_john_cusack @palestine where you lose me, autistic, is the why. By your argument Hamas has a just cause. Also by your argument Hamas should just give up.


nicholas_saunders,

@AutisticMumTo3 @morpheo @rad @banned_tweets_of_john_cusack @palestine

Autistic, what happens when there's another operation even with a two state solution?

pansytram, to Palestine
@pansytram@mas.to avatar

The U.S., U.K., Canada, Germany, Australia, Italy, Finland, and The Netherlands have said they're withholding funds for UNRWA after Israel accused 12 workers (UNRWA has 30,000 workers, 13,000 in Gaza right now) of acting in the Al Aqsa Flood, alike Israel's previous accusations that UNRWA acts as the civilian wing of Hamas.

18+ NaturaArtisMagistra, to Instagram
@NaturaArtisMagistra@mastodon.world avatar

UNRWA staff participated in the October 7 massacre. At least 12 employees were involved in the assault and even used U.N. vehicles and facilities during the terror attack.

nicholas_saunders,

@leftylabourtech @ohiorob @NoBeerToday @NaturaArtisMagistra Lefty, there's no need for equality between colonizer's and their victims. In fact, that wouldn't reallyake sense. Given your views, you should be advocating for Hamas to fight on with more operations. Or so I'd infer.

nicholas_saunders, to Israel

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jan/21/middle-east-crisis-live-netanyahu-defies-biden-on-palestinian-statehood-us-personnel-injured-in-attack-on-iraqi-base

Except that Adam Fulton can't explain what military action on Oct 8 would've been legal, nor what military response will be legal following the next operation.

https://mastodon.social/

Daojoan, to random
@Daojoan@mastodon.social avatar

One of the biggest problems in modern discourse is we keep saying "But" instead of saying "And"

Example: "Hamas committed murder but IDF strikes have killed innocent people" immediately sets up justification and whataboutism.

Whereas "Hamas committed murder and IDF strikes have killed innocent people" gives us objectivity and a realistic world view that doesn't justify anything.

nicholas_saunders,

@mybarkingdogs @micchiato @Daojoan the juxtaposition seeks to minimize what Hamas did -- the question is what military response on October 8 would've been acceptable to following .

65dBnoise, to Israel
@65dBnoise@mastodon.social avatar

"As a leader in the Jewish community, I am particularly alarmed by today’s McCarthyist tactic of manufacturing an antisemitism scare, which, in effect, turns the very real issue of Jewish safety into a pawn in a cynical political game to cover for Israel’s deeply unpopular policies with regard to Palestine.
[...] No one has a monopoly on Judaism.
[...] Be boldly critical of Israel — not despite being Jewish, but because you are."

Read the article: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/29/steinberg-weaponizing-antisemitism/

nicholas_saunders,

@65dBnoise

From "Let me speak plainly: It is not antisemitic to demand justice for all Palestinians living in their ancestral lands," we can infer, unless I'm mistaken, that the two state solution is the way forward.

Not sure who's arguing against justice for all Palestinians living in their ancestral lands, but, what happens after the next ?

nicholas_saunders, (edited )

@65dBnoise

How does that addresses:

Not sure who's arguing against justice for all Palestinians living in their ancestral lands, but, what happens after the next ?

Unless, given your postulating that Israel allowed this one to happen, they'll just allow other Al Aqsa Flood operations. If that's your position, of course.

Much as I appreciate your starting point of war crimes, I'd never defend such.

faab64, to Palestine

Verified: The Israeli army reportedly stole 10 million shekels ($2.76 million) from various money exchange shops in the West Bank during their raids last night.

Multiple jewelry shops were also broken into and looted by IDF soldiers.

Israel is truly turning into Nazi Germany in 1930s
Video shared on telegram
@palestine

IDF soldiers broke into exchange offices in occupied West Bank
IDF soldiers stole money from multiple money exchange offices during their last night raids.

nicholas_saunders,

@faab64 @f800gecko @palestine thanks for the boost, Farhad, because murder is indefensible.

If we go back to oct 8, though, what military response to the would've been acceptable, though?

dukepaaron, to UnitedKingdom
@dukepaaron@babka.social avatar

"Stephen Fry issued a heartfelt message Monday, calling out the surge in in the and encouraging the country’s to take pride in their heritage — and swiftly sparked a torrent of online trolling and backlash, with many accusing the actor and writer of playing the victim instead of shining light on the plight of in war-torn ."

Fry is figuring out he should have kept it a secret. Sorry bud. Welcome to the thunderdome.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/stephen-fry-decries-antisemitism-in-christmas-video-is-pilloried-online/

nicholas_saunders,

@ArenaCops @TonyStark @dukepaaron

The question which was actually asked:

Here's the crux of the issue: what happens when the next occurs?

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