Right. And Hamas did not have to carry out a terrorist rape attack and abduct hundreds of international civilian hostages. Both Hamas and the Netanyahu regime are shit. There’s no excuse for either.
The victims are Palestinian civilians killed by the Netanyahu regime, Israelis killed by the Hamas terrorists and international people who were killed, raped and taken hostage by Hamas. That is my stance, whether you like it or not. Now, go away.
I have taken pains to point out that Zionism does not equate Judaism. Three of the men from whom I have learned the most about this conflict are all Jewish, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappé.
… who teaches at a yeshiva that gets its funding from the Israeli government… guess he’s not so extreme he can’t get government funding. Embarrassing. Even in the relatively thoughtless USA we would cancel that sponsorship in a second.
Israeli democracy often resembles more of a Jewish “theocracy” I say that as a former Israeli voter. There is a huge coalition of religious politicians that work together to keep money flowing to the orthodox haredi voters whonare invaluable to them.
It’d be like asking Hamas the same question, clearly we shouldn’t judge the Palestinian innocents on Hamas’ views, nor should we judge Israel on this guys views
Majority held views among the population are in support of Gazan genocide and withholding all food from entering Gaza. The settler society at all levels understands its interests demand genocide.
Ok, well if that’s the case what is your community going to do to ensure he does not receive support from you, and that he can not recruit from within you, and that your community does not produce more extremists like him?
Usually in this type of situation the answer is to act outraged on social media.
Not the OP, but sadly, the israeli state has a vested interest in supporting rabbis like him who act as an arm of extreme statist propaganda.
Even though the “disciples” of these kinds of rhetoric are not likely to serve in the military, they will egg on the existing population and do their spiel of making bullshit stories up.
And while I’d love to be in a position to go all “not all of us are like that”, and while I’m aware there are some Israelis who fight to get food in gaza, my entire family and most of my friends and colleagues spout this kind of extreme rhetoric, and i honestly feel like I’m slowly losing my mind over it.
There is not much willing in any community, and not much hope anything will change internally for the time being.
Most of my family believes similarly to this Rabbi. I feel like if I try to defend the Palestinians or put an ounce of blame on the Israeli occupation I’ll be excommunicated.
I instead try to teach the undecided, usually the ones who have been ignorant to the situation or those who haven’t yet “taken a side”. I grew up in an orthodox Jewish settlement on the west bank so I belibe I can speak with some amount of authority.
Your situation sounds pretty miserable and you do have my sympathy.
I’m naive to the nuance of the Israel / Gaza / extremist situation. My comment was just a tongue in cheek commentary on the nature of ideologies and extremism.
Ideologies tend to attract and / or produce nutters, provide them succour, but then disclaim their behaviours.
“The difference” is that Israel’s formal position is not the elimination of Palestinian Arabs. Zionism as we know it primary exists because of widespread genocidal attitudes towards Jews.
I’m not defending Israel’s heavy hand here by any means. I am just tired of everyone on the internet feeling free to just ignore all the historical context wrapped up in this conflict.
Zionism was from the very beginning a settler colonial enterprise. Yes genocidal attitudes towards Jews may have been used to promote the idea, but the end goal was always possession of land.
In its initial stage, Zionism was conceived by its pioneers as a movement wholly depending on mechanical factors: there is a country which happens to be called Palestine, a country without a people, and, on the other hand, there exists the Jewish people, and it has no country. What else is necessary, then, than to fit the gem into the ring, to unite this people with this country? The owners of the country [the Turks] must, therefore, be persuaded and convinced that this marriage is advantageous, not only for the [Jewish] people and for the country, but also for themselves.
I’ve come to hate people asking for sources in the interwebs. If you ask me for the sources for Gleiwitz or Mainila, or anything else, it’ll be as hard to find as on this subject.
People who are ready to invest their time in writing a short comment may not be ready to do that for finding sources for you. And that’s valid and doesn’t mean you’ve won an argument or something. Arguments can’t be won or lost anyway.
And people who are really ready to find sources are mostly not the good ones, it’s, say, genocide denialist Turks\Azeris and the sources they link are trash or don’t support what they say.
So you are making it seem that the other side has no sources when they may have and not giving sources seem worse than giving garbage sources.
And on your question - the Wikipedia article has some sources which seem fine.
For me, it’s more kind of shocking that so many people feel like they can confidently comment on these events without basic knowledge of the very well known history surrounding them. Someone who has such large gaps in their knowledge probably isn’t worth debating further, and simply highlighting those gaps should provide pretty good view to anyone else reading this conversation about what level they are operating on.
This is especially notable when you see accounts which literally do nothing besides comment on this conflict.
I think you are putting unneeded conditions where there should be only one - whether you want to participate for your amusement.
Arguments do not expose truth. Arguments are not won or lost. If the arguing sides are trying to impose some position, to win some fight, then the argument is garbage.
Nothing shocking here either. They do what they want with their time.
Yeah, although if the American state were sponsoring said crazy preacher it would be an issue. The Rabbi and his Yashiva are sponsored by the Israeli government as the article makes clear.
Well, the prime minister, the finance minister and the head of defense all have said similar things over there in Israel. At some point you have to believe that what they are saying and their actions are speaking for themselves and their words and actions are saying “no one is innocent and even if they were we are still going to kill them all so we can get the land.”
I mean, it’s kinda like judging America based on Pat Robertson, the Westboro Baptist Church, Steve Bannon, Steve Miller, and Trump.
Yes, we should beleive people like Trump when they say how awful they are. The fact that he was elected and is the presumptive Republican nominee says a lot about the American right, right now. But it definitely doesn’t mean that Americans in general are awful people.
I never understood why some people would say it was anti semitic to criticize Israel in certain ways, like people say the BDS movement is racist, but it’s exactly things such as this that made me start to see it, and now I can’t unsee it. People rabidly hold Israel to a different standard and only one explanation consistently makes sense.
One Jewish nutbag bloviating his hatred into the void is asserted by some as evidence the the whole of Israel has evil, genocidal intent.
Targeted bombings of tunnels, valid military targets, with cell phone warnings, pamphleting, and roof knocking is described as indiscriminate.
Not giving foreigners the same rights as natively born or naturalized citizens is called literal “apartheid.”
Israel must stop bombing immediately or America should burn our alliance and feed the Jews to Iran, only Israel though, for Hamas it’s all “keep up the good work! Death to America!”
Israelites enforcing the word of EL? The Canaanite God of War? Yep. Same exact philosophy that has been handed down since The Bronze Age Collapse. Their blood may, or may not, be different. Their ideology is exactly the same. Genocide of their cousins.
Just accept that Israelite “history” from Exodus on is mythology, as in the authors lied, which was common at the time, and you’ll see how these ideas are exactly the same, as are the people espousing such hatred for their fellow humans.
Israelites enforcing the word of EL? The Canaanite God of War? Yep. Same exact philosophy that has been handed down since The Bronze Age Collapse. Used against their cousins again.
Just accept that you’re Israelite “history” from Exodus on is mythology, as in the authors lied, which was common at the time, and you’ll see how these ideas are exactly the same, as are the people espousing such hatred for their fellow humans.
I really do want to get into this conversation with you because I can already tell your understanding of religion and history comes from sassy youtubers but I know from experience it never really goes anywhere because people like you can’t confront the fact that your worldview is tainted by irrational bigotry.
But I’ll leave you with this nugget: Organized religion is the only reason we were able to transition from small nomadic tribes to densely populated cities and literally kickstarted the historic era. For the VAST majority of written history religion and governance were basically the same thing.
I sure do get tired of motherfuckers insulting us for not accepting that bronze age bullshit. Religion killed 1/3 of Europe with one decree alone during the Black Plague. Imagine how much faster civilization would have advanced without a bunch of psychotic delusional retards running around yelling KILL ALL THE INFIDELS!!! Religion literally kept people from washing their hands or learning to read. Everything you claimed was a positive was in fact the opposite… the civilization that happened was in SPITE of religion when it wasnt seriously hindered and delayed by religion. It doesnt take any YouTube bullshit to know this.
I understand why you said that because you took an oversimplification as an absolute, but there is medical history of people including doctors not washing their fucking hands for surgeries because science is a lie and God would decide who lives and dies.
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