As far as I'm concerned, the licensed company to do this, Kuoni through the #Drupal Association do not release the financial information of the event to the community.
@pcambra
The number of scholarships is in line with the number given at DrupalCon NA, taking into account the number of attendees. I’ve checked this for multiple years (though I do appreciate I was able to invite 180 scholars when it was a virtual event)
@pcambra oh well, here we go again, another “DrupalCon is too expensive” posts.
DrupalCon Europe has long been a difficult challenge to make pay for itself, even to the point where the Drupal Association realised it was creating too great a risk to the project to take that risk on themselves.
The staff at the DA made a wise decision to offset that risk by contracting with Kuoni Congress (as they were then known) who operated the event with a “profit sharing” arrangement. The profit has still never been enough to actually share any, as you know.
The DA operate a board, including two seat elected by its members who are able to oversee the arrangements and workings of contracted parties, ensuring clarity of their work.
The cost of the early bird tickets is very much in line with the cost of tickets at other similar events. If anything, it’s better value than many. Yes, it’s a lot of money. No, it’s not more than others.
@rachel_norfolk here we go, another condescending response on your side, no surprises here.
Private conferences profiting from volunteer time from the community and setting ticket prices on those levels while not reporting any information back to the community is hardly a wise decision, and I do not know how much Kuoni makes or loses with this. I asked at the board and never got a response.
Similar conferences DO pay for speakers travel and accommodations which is a standard and a minimum.
@rachel_norfolk
Well said, and I'm happy to go to this event this year. Especially as I missed Prague last year and got sick of all the virtual events before then.
I know it will be different from #drupaldevdays which have been amazing last week. They have been organized by volunteers. Something that didn't work for #DrupalCon Europe any longer. That comes for a price. @pcambra
@jurgenhaas it is an event that is heavily dependent of volunteer work, as you can see on the DrupalCon page.
I’m not sure why do you think it’s OK for a private company to monetise volunteer efforts without a clear report back to the community?
And then there’s the lack of control of the DA and the community on the event itself, I don’t think the licensed mode will have very long legs.
@jurgenhaas you have the answers on this very same thread, unilateral decisions by the DA.
I do not agree that a for profit company should be in charge of a volunteer based event, they have a very different definition of success.
@pcambra
The DA is us, the members, the community. It's like in democracy, we can participate or not, in the end the decisions often satisfy just half of the members. Unfortunate if you find yourself on the other half.
Things can always be changed, but you can not always succeed. For now, there is a contract and no point asking to break that.
If somebody is ready to propose an alternative approach after that contract terminates, I'm sure it will be considered.
@jurgenhaas I don’t know where you’re going with this but I couldn’t disagree more with a “the DA is us” statement.
At the end of the day, a 700-1000€ ticket for a Drupal Con Europe excludes the half of us that cannot reasonably afford that price point. You’re probably in the half that can and maybe you’re not seeing the issue.
You are definitely talking from a privileged position than most people in Southern Europe/Western Europe definitely don't have.
It's easy to check where DrupalCon attendees are coming from/origin of the companies they work with. Stats are there. It's not a lack of interest on the less represented countries, be sure of that.
@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra I never said "Things can't change". What I said was "won't change for now". That's an important distinction. It means that we are bound by a contract for a period of time, and after that period, things can be organised differently, if options are available.
As I understand, at the time when the contract was signed, the only available alternative solution was to cancel DrupalCon Europe entirely. Pretty sure, that's not what we wanted either.
@jurgenhaas@rachel_norfolk@pcambra Talking about it it's good, so when we are allowed to explore other options, we don't come from a blank page.
Also tired of the argument "the cost of tickets at other similar events". I'm pretty sure those pay their speakers and/or track chairs, or at least cover costs.
@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra
Talking about it is not bad, but it's not sufficient. What's needed is an alternative solution - and that doesn't come from talking. And it doesn't come from new DA employees either. I have limited knowledge, but I only see 2 possible opptions: get professional organiszers do the job (either external or from DA - but paid in both instances) or find enough volunteers who do the work. The latter didn't work any longer, but maybe again in the future?
@jurgenhaas@rachel_norfolk@pcambra Sure thing. But it's pretty discouraging and quite unfair attacking people who have been trying for long, both from the inside and from outside the DA.
@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra Couldn't agree more. I'm just not sure who got attacked in this thread other than people who didn't want to join the rant.
Expressing my frustration, when reading about repeated complaints without constructive input or workable alternatives, is not about attacking people, it's trying to ping somebody on how they could turn their frustration into positive energy by focusing on solutions rahther than issues.
@jurgenhaas@rachel_norfolk@pcambra We won't definitely agree on this. Being twice a Drupal Association Community Elected Chair it's equivalent IMHO to "not providing constructive input". I think it's actually a lot of constructive effort.
@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra True, and I appreciate that a lot. But don't you think that if a board decided on something, that we should stay behind that decision, even if we disagree with it? That's the way how we as a society agreed to govern ourselves. And then we can try next time to come to a different conclusion. But as I said earlier in this thread, there is always around a half of the "population" that's not satisfied with a decision - either way.
@jurgenhaas@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra No, because the board is unelected and unrepresentative. It's not a 'society' or an 'association'. It's a random private grouping that has appointed itself.
@jurgenhaas@rachel_norfolk@pcambra
> But don't you think that if a board decided on something, that we should stay behind that decision, even if we disagree with it?
@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra Oh, interesting. So, what does your proposed decision making process look like? Or do you think there shouldn't be any?
Without digging the details of the DA, if it is 'representative', if it should be representative, who it should be representative of.
Purely on the point of should you be quiet, or even support, a decision by a body you disagree with. No. Minorities, even majorities, that disagree vocally about decisions made by those with more power, are what keep us from tyranny.
@ekes@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra It's fascinating how the real point I'm tryiong to make is repeatedly ignored. I never asked anyone to be quiet, and of course I never asked for support of a decision you disagree with.
What I'm saying is that constant complaints are useless. What makes a difference, is proposing alternative solutions. That has nothing to do with being quiet or supporting old decisions, it's about being constructive.
What are 'constant complaints' to you, are 'being vocal about decisions made by those with more power' to others. Those 'constant complaints' form the environment in which decisions have to be made. If 'constant complaints' are 'useless' then the decision making process is immune to the opinions of others. I think in this case that's not actually the case. If it wasn't for vocal groups other decisions would likely be made.
@jurgenhaas@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra second point. While I do find this one event too expensive and at some point maybe I'll stop coming. It's not one of my focuses. There's only so much time. Hence I didn't actually reply about that specifically. I will support those who do spend time on it. To suggest they need to come up with 'alternative solutions' is too simple. Without changing other things they would have to fix specifically the cost without affecting anything else to be (...)
@jurgenhaas@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra acceptable. It also suggests that input has not been done, rather than has been decided against for whatever reasons. It suggests that it's a perfect process that would be able to accommodate the 'alternative solutions'. It's a whole set of decisions that determine the cost, and character, of events like this. Whose priorities are they that in the end make the decision?
I understand finding it important that the one focal event be inclusive. So understand being vocal about it. Understand spend time on it. Suggesting do some different event seems dismissive. Anyway I support folks who want to keep pushing the inclusivity door, which ever way, for the reasons described in thread above.
@jurgenhaas@ekes@penyaskito@pcambra this.
The answer might be because organising DrupalCon sized events is hard. It very nearly burned out those closely involved in DrupalEurope. Indeed, they have been very clear they would not do that again.
Big events that get the sponsorship levels for cheap tickets are possible IF sponsors actually spend money - BAD Camp is, after all, as big as DrupalCon.
@jurgenhaas@ekes@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra Sure, it's better to be constructive if you complain. But there is no need to be. If my food in a restaurant is awful, it's not my responsibility to tell the chef how to do it properly.
@joachim
That's what I thought too when you brought up that other scenario. I think it's time to move on and leave this thread behind us while we agree to disagree. @ekes@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra
@jurgenhaas@ekes@penyaskito@rachel_norfolk@pcambra If the DA represents the Drupal community, then we get to have opinions on it. Same as we get to protest against governments. We don't need to provide solutions - that's not our job. If the DA is a self-appointed group that has no democratic standing and no mandate -- which it is -- then yeah, maybe it's not our place to complain about it.
Personally, I see both sides of this issue. I love going to DrupalCon, but I think it has a very hard time balancing the needs of a volunteer community and business/educational goals for developers.
People come to DrupalCon with very different goals. If you are coming for traditional professional reasons, your company is probably paying and the price is quite reasonable.
But if you are coming as a community member, trying to connect with other volunteers to make Drupal better, the price is prohibitive and counter productive. Some people have been making this argument for many years.
I believe that the DA has struggled to balance these competing goals, but that it's a challenging problem and the requirements are constantly changing. Planning and hosting large scale events is expensive.
My solution is to go to lots of smaller events and connect with the community there. I made it to DrupalCon this year, only because I was able to secure a free ticket. Otherwise, I'd rather save my money to attend camps.
@pcambra isn't DC a big fundraiser for the DA tho? I believe at least at one time any over and above costs proceeds went to the association. Not saying they shouldnt pay speakers. Worth a convo about what a community conference should mean and cost in the age of "actually we all do this for a living now."
@reneestephen As far as my knowledge goes, DrupalCon Europe is a licensed conference and thus, any proceeds or losses are responsibility of the organiser.
@pcambra recently I have learned that Supporting Partners of the Drupal Association do not get special pricing on the tickets for European DrupalCon given it's not organized by the DA.
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