U.S. put a hold on an ammunition shipment to Israel

The Biden administration last week put a hold on a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel, two Israeli officials told Axios.

Why it matters: It is the first time since the Oct. 7 attack that the U.S. has stopped a weapons shipment intended for the Israeli military. The incident raised serious concerns inside the Israeli government and sent officials scrambling to understand why the shipment was held, Israeli officials said. President Biden is facing sharp criticism among Americans who oppose his support of Israel. The administration in February asked Israel to provide assurances that U.S.-made weapons were being used by Israel Defense Forces in Gaza in accordance with international law. Israel provided a signed letter of assurances in March.

3volver,

Great, now stop all money and weapons to Israel entirely. Every day Biden doesn’t do this we get closer to a criminal orange man as president.

Wiz,

It’s a sticky wicket, because Israel is the USA’s only ally in the Middle East. All options are terrible.

randon31415,

We spent how much money and how many lives to make Iraq our ally, and people STILL pull this “only ally” b.s.?

HelixDab2,

Eh. I’m not sure if most Iraqis would agree that they’re out “ally”. We kinda fucked the dog on that one. And in Afghanistan.

We’re pretty good at regime change, not so great at lasting change.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

That was true when Israel was created after WWII. It’s no longer the case. The US is also allied with Saudi Arabia and Egypt as non-NATO nations, and also with the NATO partners UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait.

Enkrod,

and also with the NATO members UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait.

??? Those are not NATO members!

disguy_ovahea,

You’re correct. They’re partners in NATO’s Istanbul Cooperation Initiative. I mistyped. I’ll correct it.

PoliticalAgitator,

But what about the profits? You can’t go around not profiting just because a few thousand children are being killed, disfigured and orphaned! It’s like you don’t understand neoliberalism at all.

Sarcasm aside, stopping the money and weapons isn’t enough to stop the genocide because Israel never needed any of it in the first place. But if you funnel hundreds of billions of dollars to defence contractors, there’s nothing the US government won’t consent to.

Orange man won’t be any different. He’s not even trying to pretend it’s not a genocide, just coming out and saying Israel should “finish the problem”.

3volver,

stopping the money and weapons isn’t enough to stop the genocide

“This thing isn’t good because it doesn’t do the thing all the way, so the thing isn’t worthwhile”.

Have a nice day political agitator, now get blocked.

Furedadmins,

Same to you trump staffer.

PoliticalAgitator,

I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating doing more you dildo.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Great, now stop all money and weapons to Israel entirely.

Can’t do that, it would be antisemitic.

disguy_ovahea,

While I’d love to see that, it would be unprecedented in the history of US-Israel relations. If it does happen at all, it will definitely come slowly.

Also, you may want to stop putting election abstinence out there as a consequence. We’re all aware that Trump will make things worse for Palestinians as well as everyone who isn’t a rich white American industrialist male.

3volver,

I’m just making sure everyone knows what the consequence is, whether I like it or not. It’s Biden’s job to do right by the people who voted for him no matter how bad the alternative may be.

disguy_ovahea,

His job is to represent all Americans, not just Democrats. Many Republicans and Evangelicals believe in supporting Israel in eradicating Palestinians.

3volver,

So is Trump’s job to represent all Americans, even Democrats? Sure as hell doesn’t fucking feel so.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

That’s the funny thing about being President. They tend to do a better job when they’ve held office before. It turns out that real estate con men and actors do a pretty terrible job of representing the average American.

spidermanchild,

It’s in the job description for president, so yeah in theory. We just all know, based on years of actions and rhetoric, that Trump has no intention of representing anyone other than himself. He doesn’t even care about his own supporters. Don’t let that cloud what the job is supposed to entail though.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

it would be unprecedented in the history of US-Israel relations

Not unprecedented. Ronald Reagan used the threat of halting arms exports to Israel in '83, in order to end PM Menachem Begin’s terror bombing of Beirut.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

Yes. He then sold arms to Iran, known as the Iran-Contra scandal, which in turn went to Hezbollah, inciting the Israel-Iran proxy war we’re protesting today. Then he provided military aid to Israel under agreement that they use it to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. He literally is the father of this proxy conflict. Do not glorify his actions.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Do not glorify his actions.

I don’t think I’m glorifying anything. Merely pointing out a moment in history in which a President threatened arms sales to Israel, prior to this one.

disguy_ovahea,

He withheld all aid, not just military, and then provided exclusive military aid with directive for application. He wasn’t “being tough” on Israel. He was telling them where to point the guns. It’s not an example of what we need from Biden, or any president for that matter.

Count042,

How is this the response to a post directly pointing out what you said is wrong.

“Yes I was wrong, but he was horrible so it doesn’t count.”

Ronald Reagan was a piece of shit. He also did the thing you said no one had done before.

disguy_ovahea,

No, again, he didn’t. He only withheld aid in order to direct the use of the subsequent military aid. That’s not being “tough on Israel.” It’s telling them where to shoot.

Count042,

No, he didn’t. The saturation bombing of Beirut was a step too far, especially as it was fucking with the US’s attempts to broker peace in Lebanon. It also actually pissed Reagan off who described it in the phone call as ‘a holocaust’

You have the weirdest, most demented, view of American history as it relates to Israel I think I’ve ever seen.

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Considering Biden repealed his settler sanctions, I’d actually bet this eventually gets approved after Israel promises to pay shipping fees in exchange for breaking the SLA stating they can’t do a genocide

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Indeed. I have no faith this hold will actually hold for long, given how many times they’d lied or misled about actions they were willing to take.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

You have that reversed. Trump repealed the 50-year-old sanctions on Israel settling on Palestinian territory. Biden restored it.

apnews.com/…/israel-settlements-illegitimate-pale…

Although Netanyahu was so grateful for Trump’s favor, he named a town after him in Golan Heights.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48656431

rusticus,

Keep doing good work. Democracy can’t let the rat fucking provocateurs win.

disguy_ovahea,

Thanks. Trying to provide factual sources to discredit disinformation is an uphill battle. There sure is a lot of it.

rusticus,

There sure is a lot of it

Literally COUNTRIES worth!

HappycamperNZ,

Im just happy you provided facts and stopped there

Alatain,
@Alatain@lemmy.world avatar

It’s the asymmetric bullshit principle

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

disguy_ovahea,

Thank you for this. It’s incredibly validating.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I mean it's not a bad thing but does it really have any real effect? Also the word "sanction" doesn't exist in this article.

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Not those sanctions lol, I was talking about the recent ones a few months ago.

reuters.com/…/biden-issue-order-targeting-jewish-…

four Israeli men it accused of being involved in settler violence in the West Bank,

Which he half walked back on

timesofisrael.com/us-says-israeli-banks-dont-have…

pivot_root,

Anyone taking bets for how long until Poohbear starts offering ammunition to Netanyahu to “build diplomatic relations”?

disguy_ovahea,

Not a snowball’s chance in hell. Putin backs Iran, which in turn backs Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthis. The Israel-Iran proxy conflict has been a US/Russia proxy conflict since Reagan and Gorbachev.

Ranvier, (edited )

That’s true, but also a little more complicated than that I think. At least one of the reasons Israel was able to extract so much aid from the US to begin with was the threat they could align with the Soviet Union (initially one of the biggest supporters of Israel, and first to recognize them as a state officially in 1947, though they had a few others had unofficially recognized them by then). Stalin had a zionist foreign policy, despite (or maybe because of) being antisemitic himself. Though Soviets and Israel largely schismed in 1967 and the Soviet union began throwing its funding behind the surrounding Arab states.

Relations warmed in the 90s again but have been up and down since. But there has been a lot of Russian immigration to Isreal. Russian is the third most spoken language in Israel.

2011, Putin said: “Israel is, in fact, a special state to us. It is practically a Russian-speaking country. Israel is one of the few foreign countries that can be called Russian-speaking. It’s apparent that more than half of the population speaks Russian”.[38] Putin additionally claimed that Israel could be considered part of the Russian cultural world, and contended that “songs which are considered to be national Israeli songs in Israel are in fact Russian national songs”. He further stated that he regarded Russian-speaking Israeli citizens as his compatriots and part of the ‘Russian World’

Israel at times has been quite friendly to Russia. It took a neutral stance on the Crimea annexation, infuriating the United States. Russia recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in 2017. Israel refused to recognize Russians assassinating people abroad, infuriating the UK. Netanyahu has spoke often about his friendship with Putin. Israel refused to impose sanctions on Russia or send defensive weapons to Ukraine.

I mean you could go on, it’s a complicated relationship, with especially Netanyahu favoring closer relations with Russia and trying to play both sides. Iran’s relationship with Russia certainly presents complications, but I don’t think Israel getting closer to Russia or at least using the threat of it to extract more from the United States is out of the question. They’re often trying to “play both sides” of the Russia and US divide to their benefit. Especially if Netanyahu remains in power.

axios.com/…/ukraine-russia-israel-netanyahu-putin…

washingtoninstitute.org/…/netanyahu-governments-a…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Russia_relations

China and Israel have had surprisingly good relations too. And again, Netanyahu has consistently tried to make those closer, possibly to help keep US aid flowing.

timesofisrael.com/with-israeli-us-ties-troubled-c…

Not saying the US shouldn’t cut off Isreal, please do, but the results may be surprising if that were to actually happen. I don’t think putin harbors any particular concerns for the plight of the Palestinian people.

disguy_ovahea,

That all changed when Reagan played both sides by selling arms to Iran in the Iran-Contra scandal while providing military aid to Israel with the mandate that they attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. Gorbachev then reinforced the relations that Russia had with Iran since the Persian Empire, and the Israel-Iran proxy conflict was born.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Israel_proxy_conflict

Any diplomatic words from Putin should be seen as coercive agenda. He recently stated that he’d prefer Biden in office over Trump because he’s more predictable, while circulating communication with direction to support and encourage the Republican Party.

washingtonpost.com/…/russia-propaganda-us-ukraine…

nonailsleft,

Funny detail is that Israel was the one that shipped their weapons to Iran, with the US supplying them with replacements

Ranvier, (edited )

Yes not disputing at all that there’s a proxy war (though Soviet Israeli relationship deteriorated long before that started with Soviets funding Israeli opponents since 1967), just that despite or partially because of this, Israel is closer to Russia than most western countries. Isreal doesn’t want to upset Russia and give them more incentive to fund proxies against them, and some Israeli governments, like Netanyahu’s especially, have helped provide cover for Russian actions. And Russia at times will often take surprisingly pro Israeli moves despite also funding proxies.

I don’t think it would be impossible for Israel to switch alignment to Russia, and I think you would quickly see Russia providing cover and stopping any assistance with proxy conflict against them. It would be essentially accomplishing Russia’s goal, so what would they have to fight Israel about anymore? Putin is a real politic great powers kind of leader who has no qualms about butchering civilians by the thousands. He’s certainly not aligned with Iran because he’s concerned about Palestinians. Israel becoming fully aligned with Russia would be accomplishing a 77 year in the making goal for the Soviet Union and Russia.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

That’s a fair point. I could see it if Biden cut Israel off for longer enough he’d effectively push Netanyahu into Putin’s arms, like paying protection from the mob. That would also require Netanyahu to remain in office, and he’s polling at 15% favorability as of January. I’m sure that’s gone down since the Iranian retaliation. Elections tend to be reactionary when following tragedy and disaster, so I’m hoping they finally get a more liberal Prime Minister this time around.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

so I’m hoping they finally get a more liberal Prime Minister this time around.

Ain't happening. Support for the war itself is ridiculously high. This won't be the first Israelis remove their government after a massive security failure, so we have precedent and in none of that precedent did Israelis actually embrace the idea of peace.

Ranvier,

Yes totally agree, there’s no way this goes anywhere but worse somehow as long as Netanyahu remains in power. Hopefully elections (or just being hauled off to jail hopefully) push him out soon, for everyone’s sake.

pivot_root,

We had better hope hell stays hot and China stays out of it, then. Genocidal assholes don’t care where they source their weapons, and I wouldn’t put it past him to bend over for any country willing to support his campaign.

snownyte,
snownyte avatar

It took 35,000 lives for the US to finally do this?

disguy_ovahea,

Nah. That’s happened before, and everything just continued. It took nationwide protests all over the news, as well as several outspoken members of Congress to make this happen.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

We’ve been shipping Israel ammo to kill Palestinians for over half a year. We only now stopped one shipment. Think about that.

oehm,

We’ve been shipping Israel ammo to kill Palestinians for decades

Ensign_Crab,

If we accept this as a justification for continuing, we’ll never stop.

T00l_shed,

Best time to stop was yesterday, second best time is today.

disguy_ovahea,

It was initially for defense after a massacre when the Iron Dome was breached in October. That was completely justified support. The munitions sold since Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians are not.

sub_ubi,

I don’t think it’s possible to justify support for apartheid.

disguy_ovahea,

Agreed. It’s been the standard since Israel was conceived in 1948, but there are a lot more liberal people in Israel now. The ultra-orthodox make up only 13% now, and those are the conservatives that got Netanyahu into power. He only has a 15% approval rating since January, and there have been massive protests since March. Let’s hope they do the right thing with the next election and allow Palestinians access to their holy land.

alcoholicorn,

Netanyahu’s opposition are even more openly fascist. There is no meaningful left in Israel.

disguy_ovahea,

That sounds like ignorant nationalism. I have Israeli-American friends that describe the party very differently. I may believe you if you could substantiate it with proof of their fascist left wing.

alcoholicorn,

The very fact that their “left” still wants an apartheid state! There’s no Israeli left party that wants to give equal rights to Palestinians and return their homes.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

They don’t. A large faction of Israel’s left wing believes in one-state. 20% of Israeli Jews believe in a one state solution, as do most Arab/Palestian Israelis. It’s been growing as time passes and the older generations die.

pcpsr.org/…/Summary Report_ English_Joint Poll 24…

Count042,

The trick here, that was even covered in that paper, is the difference between what Palestinians think a one state solution is and what Israelis think a one state solution is.

In that study they found the Palestinians viewed a single country with equal rights for all as a one state solution. The Israelis thought it meant a state with all of the territory but without the Palestinians.

Frankly, the liberal Israelis wouldn’t be for a one state solution if it also meant giving up the land and property stolen from the Palestinians through terrorism.

“Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds”

Watch how fast they’d turn right wing if property in west Jerusalem or east Jerusalem had to be given up.

disguy_ovahea,

Where do you see the point about Israelis believing it would be without Palestinians? I’ve read it twice now, and I don’t see that understanding anywhere. Did you make that up?

Count042, (edited )

Figure 2 and figure 4 on page 7 and 8.

My description is definitely hyperbole, but it’s still stretching the truth less then your ‘leftist Jewish people really do want as a majority this thing that the study shows as single digit, or just barely double digit at 10%.’ thing.

also, leftists don’t want things stolen through terror.

This really reads as a cope study for American Jewish people that don’t want to deal with the cognitive dissonance that the internal contradictions of leftism and Zionism automatically produces.

There is no ethical way to create a new homeland for a people that underwent a diaspora that is ethical when the land they want is already occupied.

Edit: plus it won’t matter as long as the state of Israel has a law requiring Jewish Israelis maintain the majority population. Oh yeah, that’s a thing.

Edit: this is done on a phone and I’m correcting autocorrect mistakes that don’t change the point.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

Those are the two state solution graphs, and that would be without Palestinian representation. It’s less, only 20% of Israeli Jews and almost all Arab/Palestinian Israelis support an equal one state solution. That still makes up almost half of the left wing party. The numbers have been steadily increasing as older generations die. I have Israeli-American friends that have supported one-state their whole life growing up in Israel. They don’t dehumanize or vilify Palestinians. They have nothing but contempt for Hamas and their bloodthirsty agenda to eradicate Israeli settlers and reclaim the holy land, but are very aware of the difference between Hamas and Palestinians. They want peace and equality, as do many others in the left wing.

Count042, (edited )

Those are not two state solutions graphs.

Do you actually read those? Those are graphs for what people want if a two state solution is available in the set of options in the study.

That twenty percent figure comes from if you remove all other possible options.

This its an example of ‘lies, damned lies, and statistics’ except as usual, it’s not the statistics doing the lying but the person misinterpreting them.

Edit: while I don’t think the author of this it’s biased, I think the methodology of the study is shitty. Not maliciously so, just it’s really hard to build studies that get to peoples underlying views.

Count042,

Do they have the same contempt for Israeli IDF that intentionally kill civilians in Gaza or give cover to the hilltop youth committing ethnic cleansing in the west bank and demand the 15000 Palestinian hostages from the west bank be released? If not, they’re hypocrites at best.

I have Israeli-American friends that are organizing their cities JVP chapter.

Israel is not an ethical creation, and my father is older than this so called country.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

Oh 100%. One of them joined the protest in NYC. They both resent Netanyahu for using antisemitism as a defense for his actions. They’re both Israeli Jews, and have to deal with the repercussions of his actions halfway around the world.

As far as the ethics of creating Israel, that was decided by Truman and the UN. The US is more to blame for the creation of Israel than the Israelis.

Count042,

Tell that to the fucking Irgun.

Israel was formed through terrorism and maintains its power through terrorism, as all colonial states do. That word, colonial? That was the word Israel used to describe itself in the 50’s to Europe when trying to convince other Jewish people to move there and take land from the people living there.

Israel was formed by the Zionists who formed it through terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Truman, dumb fuck that he was, just formalized what existed through the targeted violence lead by the Zionists living there at the time.

disguy_ovahea,

That’s not accurate. The US saw the creation of Israel as a way to establish US presence against the colonial support of Great Britain and the Soviet support of the USSR in the Palestinian Arabs. The US provided the forces for “containment” as it was called. The Jewish settlers did not have the means to do what was done, having just been displaced from Germany and Poland.

digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl…

Count042, (edited )

Do you just post links hoping people won’t read them and they’ll be like ‘oh shit, this person is posting sources!’

A thesis for a masters degree in history in 1980(EDIT: 1990, not 1980) at Old Dominion university a source is not.

Especially for something as ahistorical as your point of view. Especially for trying to absolve the Zionists of any agency or responsibility for their actions. Truman and the international community voted and approved the partition plan. David Ben Gurion and other Jewish leaders in Zionist terrorist organizations like the Irgun and Lehi under the Haganah used it as a stepping stone to enlarge their territory through forced ethnic cleansing and murder sprees.

The Jewish settlers did not have the means to do what was done, having just been displaced from Germany and Poland.

I don’t know how to even respond to this it’s so nonsensical. All I can imagine is it’s an attempt to link in the Holocaust with the formation of Israel. As if the influx of Zionists to Mandatory Palestine started in 1945. If that was the case, Zionists should have just been given Austria or something.

It’s clear at this point you’re either arguing in bad faith or just so delusional as to be living in an alternate universe.

I will actually give you the benefit of the doubt here in the bad faith bit here though. You don’t seem malicious, you seem like you believe your own nonsense.

Either way, I’m done with this.

Edit: Sorry, the 1990, not 1980.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Ain't happening. Support for the war is high as fuck.

but there are a lot more liberal people in Israel now.

The right wing is getting bigger, though. The time for peace with Israel was the 90s and we know how those ended.

Sunforged,

They’ve been indiscriminately killing Palestinians long before October.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

The previous attacks during the Biden administration were attempted attacks on Hamas, not attacks directed at Palestinians. If Israel always wanted to kill all Palestinians, that would’ve been done in 1985 when this conflict started. Netanyahu has been using the attack on Oct. 7 to justify the shift in tactics from targeting Hamas to “we can’t tell them apart.”

alcoholicorn,
  1. No, all the children shot during the March of Return were not Hamas, nor were the thousands killed before 2006.
  2. Palestinians have a right to resist. Israel, being an illegitimate settler apartheid state, has no such right. Attacks on Hamas are not justified.
rusticus,

Blame fucking Trump for #1

Sunforged,

American policy regarding Isreal is bipartisan stop shifting the blame and own up.

rusticus,

You say in a thread where the current president has delayed weapons delivery for the first time in 50 years. STFU

Sunforged,

It’s not because he personally wants to, go check what he’s on the record as saying his entire career. This isn’t something to applaud, this is him trying to avoid political blowback. You think we should stop applying pressure because of a single descision?

_tezz, (edited )

The other commenter didn’t say that, but also, shouldn’t we be pleased that a politician, the literal President of the United States, is buckling to public pressure here? Isn’t that the whole point of democracy is that they are supposed to represent the will of the people? That he is doing this in spite of his own personal interest is pretty amazing and stark compared to Trump.

I think we should take wins like this seriously, the system is working as it should for a brief moment here. Progress takes time, let’s celebrate how quickly an 81 year old man is changing course on something lol

Sunforged, (edited )

Hard to celebrate anything with so much money stolen from the American people and so many Palestinians dead.

This is shameful and the fact that Trump is worse is no excuse, raise your expectations. There are ongoing protests being violently repressed and all Biden has to say about it is “law and order”, wake up.

_tezz,

That is very clearly not all he has to say, he has just now interrupted a 50-year supply of military arms to an ally, for the first time ever as far as I am aware. They’re building a literal seaport for aid delivery. The president often can’t unilaterally make decisions, much of the funding especially for Israel is packaged into bills made by Congress, that are usually a small part of a larger budget.

The protests are working, as intended. The government is changing their tune, as intended. Maybe I am awake, maybe you’re the one who’s asleep. Maybe not. In my eyes though this is how democracy has always worked. You argue until the other side is convinced, which we are in the middle of doing and succeeding at.

You equated Biden and Trump. We have their two presidencies to refer to now, we don’t have to guess, and they look and sound a lot different on Israel to me. We’ll see what Biden does if they invade Rafah.

Sunforged,

The government is changing their tune, as intended … You argue until the other side is convinced, which we are in the middle of doing and succeeding at.

You sure about that?

Sunforged,

How about that 1 billion weapons package Biden is pushing now? How is that red line he had working out?

_tezz,

Hi there. I did some reading on the deal and I’m not very happy they’re rolling out this package, I was hoping they would be more firm. However it looks like, should this deal go through, the equipment won’t be delivered for at least 2-3 years according to the AP. In that regard I do feel hopeful that Israel won’t be able to use these items against the people of Gaza, provided they can come to some sort of ceasefire.

If we’re still examining this in the context of the election, I don’t believe this is enough cause for me to vote for Trump or another party. The Republicans want to nuke Gaza, so my perspective is that we have to do what we can to ensure the least harm possible comes to civilians, which means preventing them from leading our government. I don’t see another candidate who will be both able to defeat Trump and to single-handedly shift the US foreign policy apparatus, but I am all ears if that person does exist and I’ve just missed them somehow.

Sunforged,

Oh there is no other option, but that wasn’t my point. Republicans extremism allows the Democrats to continue to fail the American people in a ratchet effect. It’s a slow slide into Fascism instead of a fast one. Isreal has been killing the Palestinian people and forcing them to seek asylum since the country’s inception. Weapons to Isreal are weapons to kill the native population, it’s what colonizers do.

Allowing lip service to pacify the publics awareness only plays into their favor. That is my point. Don’t make excuses for them.

_tezz,

Not only did I not make excuses for them but I agreed with you in that it’s a bad deal. I’m not sure you need to remind anyone that Israel is killing Palestinian people in a thread about Israel killing Palestinian people.

I was just saying that the current administration is behaving differently than the previous ones, albeit not by much.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

Correct. The Great March of Return was during the Trump Administration. The thread commenter was talking about the last six months of munitions supplied to Israel. Maybe this is the start of change.

Sunforged,

Hamas isn’t even in the West Bank yet Shireen Abu Akleh was murdered there in 2022, while clearly marked as a journalist. There are so many incidents I could pull up as examples of indiscriminate killings but your ignorance is not worth my time.

disguy_ovahea,

I’m not saying the IDF didn’t kill Palestinians before Oct 7th. I’m saying they began targeting both Hamas and Palestinians alike after the attack.

bamboo,

Israel only came into existence following ethic cleansing committed against civilians in 1947-1948. Israel has targeted civilians its entire history.

kent_eh,

They’ve been indiscriminately killing Palestinians long before October.

And during that very long time, Eisenhower, Johnson, Ford, Nixon, Regan, Clinton, both Bushes, Carter, Obama, Trump and until recently Biden didn’t stop selling Israel weapons.

And now Biden has started to cut them off.

juicy,

Reagan held up arms shipments to Israel on multiple occasions.

disguy_ovahea,

He did not. He withheld all aid from Israel, and then provided military aid under the agreement that they’d use it to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. That was after he sold the weapons to Iran in the Iran-Contra scandal that ended up in the hands of Hezbollah.

The man literally put this shit pot on the stove and started stirring. Do not glorify his actions in this conflict.

bdonvr,

It was never justified and this didn’t start that day

disguy_ovahea,

Correct. Killing Palestinians is not justified. What I wrote was providing defense to an ally that was just attacked is standard, and justified.

NoLifeGaming,

This is the equivalent of someone taking your house and throwing you in the basement and then when you come out and attack decades later they fight back and say its for self defense. Please.

disguy_ovahea, (edited )

So Native Americans should just start murdering Americans until they leave? One state is the only equitable solution at this point.

daltotron,

So Native Americans should just start murdering Americans until they leave?

wellllll…

NoLifeGaming,
  1. I’m not against a one state solution
  2. Stolen land/property should be given back
  3. Your example is disanalgous, run the clock back to when the colonies were being formed. If a colonist from Europe came and took their house or the land they use or live on they have every right to fight back.
  4. If a colonist attacks me and kills my family I have a right to fight back. If I fight back then its not self defense for them but for me.
disguy_ovahea, (edited )

You’re right. It’s an imperfect analogy. The Jews that occupy Israel once lived in Israel. Colonialists never originated in America. If you want to run the clock back, take a real look at who is responsible for the creation of Israel.

The Jews didn’t have the means to fight anyone, having just been displaced from their homes in Germany and Poland. Truman and the UN, against Great Britain’s protest, provided the necessary forces as an investment against the colonial presence of Great Britain and socialist presence of the USSR in the form of Arab/Palestinian support. The US is more to blame for the creation and existence of the state of Israel than the Israelis.

digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl…

Count042,

The Zionist terrorist organizations that ethnically cleansed portions of Mandatory Palestine through murder sprees of civilians are responsible

Stop posting the thesis of a dude going for his masters degree in history at ‘Old Dominion’ university written in 1980 as a source when this was recent enough that we literally have primary sources for what happened.

fuckingkangaroos,

Do you have a better source?

Count042, (edited )

No one in Israel wants that.

Also, this comparison is very apt. Israelis explicitly want to get to the point where they have the land and can just give land acknowledgments. This view though is dependent on "Never Again’’ meaning nothing.

Dran_Arcana,

I thought most surveys showed like 30-40% of israelis were in support of a single-state solution?

disguy_ovahea,

That’s a two-state solution, and not really equitable to Palestinians.

disguy_ovahea,

20% of Israeli Jews and most Arab/Palestinian Israelis are in support of a one state solution, with numbers increasing as the older generations die off. Vilification of Israelis is no different than the dehumanization of Palestinians that you’re protesting. No group of people deserves simplification.

pcpsr.org/…/Summary Report_ English_Joint Poll 24…

Count042,

I edited my comment while you responded. That was not done maliciously.

disguy_ovahea,

I did the same after reading your edit. Lol

Maggoty,

Oh they haven’t waited in the basement for decades. This has been an ongoing thing since Israeli terrorists took control of the region in 1948.

Aceticon,

Nobody needs 2000lb bombs - which the US itself doesn’t use because they blow up entire quarters and have massive collateral damage - for defense.

Grandwolf319,

These things take time, it’s shitty but this gives me hope that things might actually change.

Ensign_Crab,

Biden never had to start circumventing congress to sell weapons in the first place. His hands have never been tied here.

T00l_shed,

True, but hopefully he now realizes the error of his ways. Young people overwhelmingly do not support the US’s support of Israel. He knows more about what is happening there than any of us do, and he was all for it until this possible shipment halt. Maybe he’s finally realized that bibi has gone too far.

Ensign_Crab,

Pretty sure he just hopes everyone won’t be paying attention when he resumes.

Milk_Sheikh,

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/e662a6bd-5c29-4f6f-a40f-dc3e42de872b.webp

I am no friend of Bibi or the IDFs action towards Palestinians, but let’s be fair - the northern border has been lit up lately, and Biden is still a self described Zionist. Not ‘defending’ the Jewish state is going to be a big line in the sand for him

Gradually_Adjusting,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously… When was the last time you talked to someone his age and changed their minds about something political?

This is part of the danger with a de facto gerontocracy, to be ruled by bad ideas that, with a patina of age, enjoy the status of tradition.

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

And suddenly, Israel seems much more interested in diplomacy.

winterayars,

I believe they’re throwing a fit about it right now but we’ll see. They don’t have a lot of room to complain about literal tons of free guns getting shipped to them.

disguy_ovahea,

Let’s hope.

gregorum,

Well, well…

disguy_ovahea,

Looks like protesting still works.

gregorum,

Let’s hope all of this diplomacy also works.

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