Hillary Clinton tells voters to 'get over yourself' when it comes to Biden-Trump rematch

With a electoral system like Ranked Choice voting, people would feel safe to vote for whomsoever they wish, as their vote would still be counted even if their preference didn’t win.

Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoiler effect exists.

Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.

Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Republicans LOVE first past the post voting. Just sbsolutely adore it. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans want?

More political parties means a higher percentage of the population is represented by their choices in the voting booth. More people involved in the electoral process, more people engaged.

Its a win win win all around for not just the people, but also for the democratic party. More people voting means more democratic votes. The numbers dont lie. So what’s the hold up blue states?

Some day we will be able to vote for who best represents our interests. We won’t need to grovel on our knees, begging for representationin government. We won’t need to wait for the Republican party to stop existing.

We can do it right now. We don’t have to get over a damn thing. If anyone needs to get over themselves, it would be the democrats who assume they are the only way forward.

Consider starting a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.

Smeagol666,

Honestly I hate hearing her voice even more than Trump’s, and I used to vote democrat.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Alternative headline: Hillary Clinton hasn’t learned her lesson that she is tone deaf and should stay the fuck out of politics.

FringeTheory999,

That’s A real hoot coming from the woman who gave us president Donald Trump.

deur,

Real stupid take from the lemmy user. At best the voters “gave” you trump.

klemptor,
@klemptor@startrek.website avatar

The electoral college gave us trump. Clinton won the popular vote.

rab,

Nah if not for Hillary, Bernie would have easily beat trump

skulblaka,

Real stupid take from the lemmy user. Trump lost the popular vote.

meep_launcher,

Real stupid vote from the Trump user. Lemmy lost the popular take.

teamevil,

We DEFINITELY don’t need her help with any elections.

TwoBeeSan,

Shut up, cunt.

SeaJ,

She really just needs to get over herself and shut the fuck up. She lost to Trump. Why the fuck would anyone listen to her on how to beat him?

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

Two things can be true at the same time.

  1. She is a target of mysgonstic flavored consisparcy theories.
  2. She truly is unlikeable with half measure policies while being woefully out of touch with the average person.
madcaesar,
  1. She is / was 100x more qualified than Trump.
  2. American voters are idiots.
AWistfulNihilist,

And yet, unelectable!

Cethin,

It’s easy to be more qualified than totally unqualified. She was the obvious choice, but her total lack of charisma to voters destroyed that.

Garbanzo,

The worst part is that more people voted for her, just not where it counts because she couldn’t be bothered to campaign there

Makhno,

Yeah, cause she’s an elitist piece of shit, which makes her unqualified to anyone with a fuckin brain.

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein,

Ok, but she got more votes across the nation in a nationwide election for a Federal job, so…?

bl_r,

As shitty as this sounds, does it matter whether or not she won the popular vote if that was not the metric for winning?

She, a career politician, should know that and her strategy was lacking.

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein,

Oh, for sure, she should have had a better strategy. I don’t disagree that she ran a terrible campaign. But OP said “more people voted for her” despite her bad strategy, which is true and frankly should have been a national point of months of protests. But instead, the person I responded to implied it doesn’t matter because she’s [insert stereotypical Clinton hate vomit].

It does matter. She did get more votes. That is in fact a fairer and more just way of representing a national vote for a national/Federal position. We all know there’s an electoral college. But there absolutely shouldn’t be because it inherently counts some votes as more valuable than others, which is frankly incompatible with democracy. So yes, that definitely matters.

bl_r,

I agree with you, i just meant it in a plain cause and effect sort of way. It doesn’t matter in the sense that it is not a metric that matters for determining the outcome in the election, just an indicator of popularity.

Also, makhno said that she didn’t campaign in key states because of her elitism, and that attitude makes her less qualified. They didn’t say that it didn’t matter because of it.

Democracy, in the American sense, is a scam, and at the presidential level it’s the same mechanism from the ground up, full of antidemocratic mechanisms.

Makhno, (edited )

Cause people are idiots…?

And she stole the election from Bernie…?

Xanis,

Still more qualified than the woefully unqualified, elitist trash that is Trump. Lol

Makhno,

Sure, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Dem shills are dumb as fuck too, just not blatantly malicious like Republicans

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar
  1. She should have run on a platform that was better than “What else are you going to do, vote for Trump?”
Passerby6497,
  1. She shouldn’t have pushed trump as the pied Piper candidate in the first place.
PriorityMotif,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

She’s from the Chicago suburbs, fuck that entitled bitch.

fuego,

We literally had Trump instead of Bernie because she couldn’t get over herself.

Buddahriffic,

Neolibs would rather see a descent into fascism than a true progressive agenda because billionaires will still thrive under the former. Sure, there’s the whole die roll about who gets caught up in the purges, but a real progressive administration could lead to less free money for them. The DNC would rather hand the reigns to the GOP while it sorts out the problem of people wanting a candidate like Bernie.

HelixDab2,

She needs to learn to shut the fuck up, because she doesn’t help.

This is like telling your SO to ‘just calm down’ when they’re really angry about something.

PhlubbaDubba,

No Hillary fan by any means but the sheer unbridled rage the white left launches into whenever she shows her face is kinda proving her point.

Entitled pricks still can’t own up to the roll they played in Trump winning in 2016, and they still can’t just shut the hell up about “muh establishment Dee En See!” now 8 years later when literally all their gripes can be answered with “then why didn’t you vote for it?”

Fucking seriously, Bernie didn’t lose to some establishment conspiracy, he made the mistake of thinking millennials and Zoomers could be counted on to show up at their population share in the primaries, nevermind the easy dominating share they could have had if white bougie leftists could be counted on to do anything but bitch about how other people aren’t doing the revolution they want for them.

Bernie deserved better than fucking all of you. He deserved supporters who’d have actually been there the literal one fucking time he actually needed you to be there over all those rallies and protests and marches all ova ya fucking social media feeds like wearing his fucking merch while you still sit on your ass on polling day does anything except make all those small donations contribute to a very expensive primary defeat.

So yes, get the shit over all of yourselves, none of you deserve to crack wise about how Hillary is apparently Satan incarnate for the crime of having a base of support who could actually be assed to turn out for a primary.

Cast your ballot, then piss and moan about it, nobody has the right to bitch until they open with their “I Voted” sticker as price of admission, as the show that they can be counted on to do the literal barest minimum of actual work to improve our country, before they start throwing a tantrum as if not voting or punishment voting didn’t get us fucking both of the worst administrations to curse our nation since Reagan.

THAT’S RIGHT YOU SHIT LORDS YOU GET THE CREDIT FOR BUSH TOO! I’M SURE YOUR VOTE FOR NADER REALLY TAUGHT THOSE ESTABLISHMENT DEMS A LESSON THAT TIME!

Lemmy_Cook,

Hear hear!

HasturInYellow,

Except the system is broken and voting doesn’t help. No matter how much you want it to. Your vote is irrelevant to the DNC because they will pick whatever candidate they want anyways. It’s on THEM that Trump and Bush won. Not wanting to interact with a system so blatantly corrupt does not make me a bad person, and fuck you for claiming such. Maybe if there were confidence in LITERALLY ANYONE in government, young people would see the point in doing anything. The Dems are only there to lose to the Republicans while raking in donations and saying, ‘we just need to try HARDER!’. When they just roll over at the first sign of resistance from the right.

I’m so tired of you idiots claiming that voting is going to stop fascism. Liberals will tolerate fascism. They will bitch and moan and then go to work at the death camp.

Fuck that. I’m gonna kill fascists instead.

PhlubbaDubba,

No it makes you a bad person.

Fuck you, you’re a bad person, you’re a bad person and a worse ally.

Voting does nothing for you people because YOU PEOPLE DON’T FUCKING DO IT.

It’s real fucking convenient a position to have that they’d never honor a result in favor of a progressive when the left has yet to ever rally for and actually show up at the polls for a candidate seriously.

Voting would work if you actually bothered to try it instead of just calling it a lost cause and writing off the lives of everyone ahead of you on the hit list like the psychopath you’re throwing a tantrum about how you’re not.

I’m sure you will kill all the fascists you want, just not until they get into power to kill everyone who had the gall to expect you to participate before dolling out orders to us lowlies like you get to demand to speak to the party’s manager or some white “left” karen shit.

You kill fascists after they kill everyone who has an agenda other than yours.

Rot in hell you self righteous collaborator.

CooperRedArmyDog,

Except study after study show that the US does not respond to the will of the people, they respond to the will of the copreration, Your vote does not matter because once in office your will does not matter, This has been born out in actual full studies.

PhlubbaDubba,

Yeah it doesn’t work, that’s why they’re fighting so hard to kill it and to spread propaganda about how it doesn’t work.

Just say you care more about being right than about doing right, it’s ok, all the PoC and Queer Folks and Women you like to pretend your an ally to already know you’re cynically intent on taking advantage of your being lower on the kill list than all of them, you don’t have to keep pretending your a good person anymore.

Go, be free, live your live as the psychopathic wannabe Peter Baelish you convince yourself in your glorious revolution wet dreams that you aren’t.

CooperRedArmyDog,

Except they have done genuine studies on this, and the will of the american people has no effect on laws passed in the states or the federal government. I wish I was making this up but I am not, I will not go so far as to say a vote means absolutly nothing in total terms, but in figuritive terms it is meaningless, and there are studies to prove this.

Second, You do not know anything about me or what I do or what I hold dear. That being said, I am higly unlikely to be lower or at the very least significatly lower on the kill list than any of them, I also do very much cair about them, I also refuse to give my vote at gun point to someone who has done none of what they promised other than “No change” to doners. A man who happily broke a labor strike, a man who is aiding with no qualms and bending over backwards to protect a genoicede. No they do not get my vote. Especialy when the "threat: on the other side has no material difrence.

I mean, intersting that you assume my dreams are to immulate a fictional charicter, they are not, and I can tell you I am well aware that the revolution 1 is not a “wet dream” that is just… disgusting eww… and 2 is not anywhere close, the amount of class contiousness needed is not anywhere near where it needs to be… there are also people like you who seem to think the idea of a revolution is cilly and psycopathic, and all you have to to is vote… dispite the studies showing that the vote does not matter at the best of times, and this is not that.

If you want to know who my Hero I would want to Imulate is that would be John Brown leading a Ritchous Revolution, or Castro, or Mao, or Lennin. but no I would not think about playing out some fictional charicter

PhlubbaDubba,

no material difference

And right there you’ve outed that you’re just lying about being in any position of peril

I’m sure your lady friends could tell you all about the fucking material difference Clinton would have made in their reproductive rights not getting stripped from them, but in all your god appointed privileged saviorship you’ll just inform them that they should have made a better case about how their medical sovereignty was on the fucking line because the only people to whom the democrats and republicans are completely the same are the exact privileged twats who are ruining this country for all of us out of some twisted karen spite demanding to see the party’s manager for not doing the revolution they demanded for them WHEN THEY DIDN’T FUCKING VOTE FOR IT AT THE PRIMARY.

YOU FUCKING CUNT WAFFLE, YOU KEEP TRYING TO SKIP THE PART WHERE YOU HYPOCRITES ARE THE FUCKING REASON IT’S INEFFECTIVE, BECAUSE YOU DON’T VOTE FOR POLITICIANS WITH VIEWS MORE IN LINE WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT YOU CLAIM TO BE SPEAKING FOR!

You’re no ally to change or revolution, you’re a snivelling rat collaborator who will be lined up and shot with the rest of the fascists when the revolution you want comes and it comes out that you actively fought against averting the rise of the fascists because “well the not fascists just didn’t earn my vote!”

CancerMancer,

Try not seating a neoliberal as the candidate then, maybe you can get some leftists to go vote. The fact that so many people were assaulting the “Bernie Bros” proved to me that people like you are not leftists, you’re just rainbow neolibs.

PhlubbaDubba,

How about vote for him in the primaries then asswipe.

deranged_physicist,

This is exactly the way I feel about all these people who choose inaction and agitate for others to abstain. You’re so fucking right and I’m sick of all these comments coddling this cowardly attitude of abstinence from real action. My partner is a political organizer, works in civil rights and climate action. He’s Latino and disabled. We’re both trans and queer. I volunteer and organize. The reality is most people won’t volunteer or donate to make change. The easiest thing most people can do to make real change is to vote.

Claiming voting doesn’t work, and asserting you’d rather not vote than vote for a middle of the road candidate versus the fascist… it’s a privileged take. It’s not allyship. It’s not about helping people or making a difference, it’s moral purity. They’d rather throw away lives than taint their soul with an impure decision. I don’t have the privilege to maintain my purity, and those that do should take a hard look at how they’re using that privilege.

It might make you feel icky icky to vote for the guy you dislike versus the man who wants to exterminate me. Get over it or be honest that you’d rather feel pure than take action.

Privileged lefties’ prioritization of moral purity over real action will be the death of us.

PhlubbaDubba,

It’s especially disgusting to me because they’re using the Gaza Genocide as an excuse to expose me, a Palestinian American, to the risk of genocidal discrimination here in America.

They’re fucking using my dead kin as set dressing to lecture me about how my imminent danger isn’t a good enough reason for them to compromise their oh so precious values, whatever those must be since they love to talk about defending the underprivileged when it’s in an instagrammable pride march or rally.

prole,

Absolutely correct.

Zaktor,

I’m sure this time yelling at the voters will work.

I didn’t give a shit that Clinton beat Sanders. I am however pissed that she then lost. The person most at fault for a candidate losing is the candidate.

Lemmy_Cook,

deleted_by_author

    •
    2fat4that,
    2fat4that avatar

    Without breaking a sweat. You greatly underestimate the hatred people have for Hilary “it’s my turn” Clinton.

    card797,

    We’ll never know. However, the media establishment absolutely didn’t want the two of them on a stage together.

    CooperRedArmyDog,

    Except 1) votes need to be earned and 2) the DNC argued and won in court that election season that they did not have to provide a fair playing feild in the primary as a private organisation, they could even select their nomonee however they wanted too reguardless.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    If “the alternative are fascists” doesn’t earn your vote, you’re a fascist.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    nobody has the right to bitch until they open with their “I Voted” sticker as price of admission

    silencing your opposition is antidemocratic

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    gore won the vote in 2000. this is misinformation

    generalpotato,

    She can go get over a fucking cliff. The audacity of this idiot telling people how to vote.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Don’t give me somebody I want to vote for and I’m not voting. Done playing the fear-based voting game.

    arin,

    DNC fucked themselves by throwing Bernie Sanders under the bus. Count individual donators and Bernie wins by a landslide. Biden and Trump just got corrupt corporate sponsorship.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Bernie or Warren, but it seems the US is still not ready for a woman president, unfortunately.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Getting trump for 4 years is acceptable punishment to the dnc for not providing better candidates?

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not intentional punishment. It’s just what happens if they don’t have a candidate I want to vote for. If a restaurant makes food I don’t like I’m not punishing them for not eating there.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m guessing your healthcare rights are not at risk of Trump gets into office.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    If you’re referring to abortions, every state has the power to make it legal if they so choose. Biden doesn’t have the power to make it federal law and Trump wouldn’t have the power to make it illegal in a state where it’s currently legal.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Trump appointed a large amount of conservative judges and would appoint many more further degrading women’s rights for decades.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Biden should have done the same. expand the court. he instead did nothing.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Trump is worse than nothing. He is actively turning back rights by several generations and people are just going to let it happen by throwing a fit.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    i’m not letting it happen. the system is letting it happen. it’s what America wants. America wanted Obama at one time and republicans were not inspired by their candidates. then they wanted Trump and many people probably turned out to vote because they didn’t want Hilary to win (fear voting, or anti-voting). then Biden won because people didn’t like Trump and weren’t afraid enough of Biden. now the Democratic party is in a position to give us a candidate that we actually care about, and they’re just maintaining the anti-voting strategy. when does it stop? America wants what it wants, not what it doesn’t want.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Good thing we are not women and have all the time we want to wait for the system to give us the candidates we want…pheww.

    venusaur, (edited )
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Biden is doing nothing to protect women either. He is against expanding the courts and reform to set term limits. I’ll vote for any candidate that supports term limits for the Supreme Court. Biden does not have the power himself to make abortion federally legal, nor would Trump have the power to make it illegal in the states. It’s up to the Supreme Court federally and unfortunately Mr. Biden won’t go on the offensive. They don’t really care about women.

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Again, each gets to appoint judges that will affect women for decades. You mentioned the Supreme Court and the problem with them is all attributed to Trump’s first term. Second term will have generations long catastrophic repercussions that just won’t occur under Biden or just about anyone else. Women don’t have time for men to play with their lives and risk a Trump term in order to wait for the perfect candidate. Aanyone else including just about any republican is safer for women than Trump.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Unfortunately, not all women want what you, or the left wants.

    Census data from 2020 (couldn’t find more recent) shows there are more women of voting age than men in the US: census.gov/…/2020-demographic-analysis-tables.htm…

    Assuming that some men are voting in favor of women’s rights, you would think that it wouldn’t be possible for Trump to be elected, but it was, even when a woman was running against him. If women really don’t want Trump to win, they seemingly don’t even need men to make it happen.

    Of course, this doesn’t account for the variations in population from state to state, but that even highlights how ridiculous our electoral college voting system is, and guess what. Nobody on the left or right is talking about alternative voting systems like RCV or switching to a popular vote.

    Data here shows, however, that there are only 11 states with marginally higher male to female population, so the point still stands. If women want it to happen, they have the power to. It’s just not what all women want and they don’t need men to do it for them.worldpopulationreview.com/…/male-to-female-ratio-…

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ae5c1ed5-b664-452f-b564-c7f9ce4164dd.png

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    What do those stats have to do with women’s healthcare rights? 85% of Americans believe some form of abortion should be legal. A trump term would mean more ultra conservative judges and rulings. Trump is not something we can risk. He is old and this has to be his last chance.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    anyways, fear does not motivate me to vote

    nexguy,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    I get it. High five for not having a vagina and not rrreeeaaalllyy having to worry about it.

    venusaur, (edited )
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    You don’t know who I am or my life. Like I said, there are people with vaginas who have voted for Trump and people with vaginas who will not be voting for Biden. Women are not a monolith.

    card797,

    THAT is a lot worse than Joe Biden.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Then they should make me want to vote for them.

    kent_eh,

    Trump should be enough motivation to vote for whoever is running against him.

    Obviously it would be best to have someone you are motivated to vote for, but absent that mythical “perfect world”, it’s still in your interest to vote against the much worse candidate.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not voting for Trump either. Somebody on the right would feel the same as you do about that not being a vote against Biden.

    Not voting is my vote. You can play the game if you want but looks like you might be in Canada.

    kent_eh, (edited )

    You can play the game if you want

    Given the cult-like loyalty that Trump somehow manages to have, I see abstaining from the vote as not negating their vote for the objectively more insane candidate.

    but looks like you might be in Canada.

    Yes I am, and what you guys do down there has an outsized effect on us (and anyone else who has a diplomatic or trading relationship with the USA).

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    i’m one person. people are gonna vote if and however they want to vote. if Trump makes people vote, good for them. Biden does not make me want to vote, and using scare tactics to get me to vote proves they’re just two sides of the same coin. left and right both have cult-like loyalty and there are insane people on both sides.

    kent_eh, (edited )

    i’m one person

    Tons of elections have been won or lost by a really small number of votes.

    …wikipedia.org/…/List_of_close_election_results

    using scare tactics to get me to vote

    Not voting means someone else gets to make that choice for you.

    “Both sides are the same” is a lazy cop-out.

    There are clear differences if you’re willing to put In a small amount of effort to try.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Sorry. I’m not voting this election. Best of luck to you.

    TheKMAP,

    Imagine if all the people who didn’t vote, instead wrote in their candidate.

    The message sent by not voting is “I’m cool with whomever I get” not “I’m too cool to vote”.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s no point without alternative voting like RSV. Cool, you wrote a name down. Might as well just yell a candidate’s name into the ether and throw your ballot in the trash.

    TheKMAP,

    If there is a huge section of the population that writes in candidates, the person who would have won those votes in a ranked choice situation is motivated to enact rank choice voting.

    If you don’t vote you don’t matter to anyone.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s so backwards. Why don’t we actually put RCV on the ballot instead? I’ll sign any petition. I’ll vote in any election where RCV is on the ballot or a candidate is advocating for RCV or some other alternative voting method.

    They can make the same assumption about how they lost their votes whether I write a candidate or don’t vote at all. Newsflash, if you vote for anybody besides the major two candidates you don’t matter to anyone.

    venusaur,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    How does one get something like RCV on the ballot? Get a petition signed? How do you make a formal petition?

    Smoogs,

    Well she’s out of touch if she thinks it’s not still bipartisan.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Right message, very much the wrong messenger. Like it or not, Hillary, a significant number of people in this country despise you. I don’t think that’s at all fair, but them’s the breaks. You’re not helping.

    Ensign_Crab,

    “Shut up, you’re voting for who we want you to vote for because we say so” is never the right message. Centrists will never think of another one.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    That wasn’t really the message. The message is more: “Please stop with the hyperbole. You know that Donald Trump is the worst possible candidate imaginable.” Which is absolutely true.

    Ensign_Crab,

    “No, what he really means is…” - the trumpists you sound like.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    You ok, bud?

    Garbanzo,

    You know that Donald Trump is the worst possible candidate imaginable.

    Yes, I know that. That’s why I changed my voter registration to Republican and voted for Nikki Haley in the primaries. I don’t particularly like her, but she’s better than the worst possible candidate imaginable. Trump could have been kicked to the curb but I guess the uncommitted protest vote against Biden was more important.

    go_go_gadget,

    Ok? Then Biden should be begging for votes, doing anything within his power to get progressive and leftist votes and telling moderates and liberals to get over themselves.

    No? Oh so just more of the same finger wagging from the usual suspects convinced that one more lecture should do the trick.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, I agree it would be great if Biden was a better candidate. I’d be a whole lot less worried about a second Trump presidency if that were the case. But he’s not a better candidate. He is who he is. And though he hasn’t earned your vote, you should give it to him anyway because it’s in your best interest to do so.

    go_go_gadget,

    you should give it to him anyway because it’s in your best interest to do so.

    No.

    Focus your lectures on moderates and liberals for once in your goddamn life. I’m done being held to a different standard.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok, so what’s your solution, then? Actually - first, let’s make sure we’re on the same page about the basics: do you agree that Donald Trump would be fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden? Second, do you agree that any candidate other than the winners of the Democratic and Republican primaries basically stands no chance of becoming president?

    go_go_gadget,

    Again, ask moderates and liberals that question. And then ask them if Trump is such a danger why didn’t they fume at Biden for blocking the rail strike? Or raising the defense budget? Or forcing federal workers back to the office? Or going around Congress to ship weapons to Gaza? Why didn’t they do anything in support of progressives and leftists for the past three years?

    Why is it the people who have gotten fucked over by Biden are being told to vote for him rather than telling Biden, moderate voters and liberal voters they cannot win elections on their own and thus they must make material compromises with the people they’re depending on?

    You’re trying to squeeze blood from a stone here. I’m telling you I’m done propping up procorporate trash candidates for moderate and liberal voters. If they would rather lose to MAGA than make material compromises with leftists and progressives that’s on them.

    If Biden really believes Trump is such a a danger then he should be on his knees begging for votes. Or is his ego worth more than democracy?

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok - you didn’t answer either question. You gave me a bunch of reasons why you dislike Biden, but no opinion on whether a second Trump presidency would be worse for America than a second Biden presidency. This isn’t a trap; I want to know whether we have a basic level of agreement here.

    go_go_gadget,

    Buddy, stop.

    What you’re doing isn’t clever, nor effective. You need to hold a mirror up to what you’re doing and realize you are attempting to hold me to a different standard than moderates and liberals. Let me know when you’re ready to hold them accountable and bring us both to the table. All you’re doing here is trying to do what people like you always do: Get progressives and leftists to give up anything and everything while giving moderates and liberals a free pass.

    No. Biden cannot have my vote until something changes.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    What you’re doing isn’t clever, nor effective.

    Well now I’m very curious as to what you think I’m doing. Because I think I’m asking you to make a judgment call about which of the two candidates who have a shot at becoming president would be better for America. It’s a very simple question. What do you think I’m doing?

    go_go_gadget,

    you are attempting to hold me to a different standard than moderates and liberals.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to explain that to me. I have no idea what you mean by that. How is asking you your opinion on the relative impact of each potential president holding you to a standard at all, let alone one that’s “different from moderates and liberals”? It’s not a difficult question. Do you not know the answer?

    go_go_gadget,

    Have you asked any moderates or liberals that question?

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, probably? If someone decides that they don’t want to vote because they have a moral quandary with voting for the “lesser of the two evils”, then that person doesn’t make rational sense to me. So I’d be curious. Their political leanings don’t really matter in that scenario. Out of curiosity, why would you think that I wouldn’t ask the same questions of anybody else who said the same things you did? I mean, you’re just text on a screen to me. I don’t know you from Adam, so why would you think that I would have intimate knowledge of your political positions at the outset of our conversation?

    go_go_gadget,

    ? If someone decides that they don’t want to vote because they have a moral quandary with voting for the “lesser of the two evils”

    Moderates and liberals do have such a quandary. It’s used as the reason why Biden blocked the rail strike, why he negotiated down on his own campaign promise for student loan forgiveness and why he didn’t cut off weapon shipments to Israel. Simply put, people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t know who is making that argument, but it is a stupid argument. And besides, it doesn’t address the point at all. If, for example, Biden made those material compromises with progressives that you describe, and a “moderate” or “liberal” decides not to vote for him when his opponent is Donald Trump, then I would be in the exact same situation with them that I am currently in with you: asking them “do you believe that Donald Trump is fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden”?

    You’ve argued that I am holding you to a different standard by asking it, but have just demonstrated that that is nonsense. So will you answer now?

    go_go_gadget,

    I don’t know who is making that argument, but it is a stupid argument. And besides, it doesn’t address the point at all. If, for example, Biden made those material compromises with progressives that you describe, and a “moderate” or “liberal” decides not to vote for him when his opponent is Donald Trump, then I would be in the exact same situation with them that I am currently in with you: asking them “do you believe that Donald Trump is fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden”?

    That’s the point though. Nobody asks that of moderates. They keep getting exactly what they want and zero questions about it. Meanwhile progressives and leftists are expected to capitulate everything to the slightest wiff that moderates and liberals would abandon the party.

    I’m done. The roles are reversed now. From now on I won’t vote for candidates who won’t give me what I want. So you’ll have to hope moderates and liberals are ready to suck it up for a bit.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok, you’re still failing to get it. I think it’s not a question of a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather of mulish obstinance. I get it - you don’t like Biden because he doesn’t cater to your politics. Boo fucking hoo. He doesn’t cater to mine either, but I’m voting for him anyway because I’m not a petulant child. The problems this country is facing are far larger than the tiny myopic view you’re choosing to adopt. One candidate doesn’t care very much about progressive causes, and the other one is a wannabe dictator. At some point, you’ve got to grow up and realize that your priorities are completely out of whack.

    Do you think that Donald Trump would prioritize women’s reproductive freedom? Do you think that he would work to ensure that gay marriage isn’t overturned by a supreme court who has already talked about the possibility of overturning Obergefell v Hodges?

    You complain that Biden broke the railroad strike. Do you think that Trump would be any better? Trump, the guy who thinks so little of the common worker that he often refuses to pay his contractors.

    You complain about Biden supporting Israel. Do you think that Trump, the guy who had the US embassy moved to Jerusalem over the extremely vocal opposition of Palestine, would be any better?

    I don’t think that you’re insane, so I think you probably recognize that Donald Trump would be very bad for the causes you supposedly represent. Certainly worse for them than Joe Biden would. But, you’re too focused on the dopamine hit that “taking the moral high ground” would represent to realize that your choices will make it more likely that Donald Trump will become president again.

    There are precisely two candidates who have a shot at this. Both are bad. But one is miles worse than the other. Not voting, or voting third party isn’t as bad as voting for Trump, certainly, but it doesn’t help any of the rest of us out either. The fact is, there are 71 million people who voted for Trump in 2020. Those people will likely vote for him again. Which means that there needs to be significantly higher numbers of people voting for Biden to ensure that that orange fuck doesn’t assume office again.

    When I said that giving your vote to Biden would be in your own self interest, this is what I meant. You wouldn’t be the first person to hold your nose at the ballot box because you wanted to avert a greater catastrophe. That’s not compromising your principles. It’s just being an adult and realizing that you’re not always going to get your way, and that taking your ball and going home is a child’s way out.

    go_go_gadget,

    but rather of mulish obstinance

    Yes. After decades of watching mulish obstinance by moderates and liberals resulting in the party and every commenter like yourself bending over backwards to serve them I’m gonna give it a try.

    There are precisely two candidates who have a shot at this.

    Then you better hope Biden doesn’t need my vote or starts acting like it real fast.

    It’s just being an adult and realizing that you’re not always going to get your way

    We’ve never gotten our way. If you think drawing a line at 20 years of patience isn’t sufficient to qualify as adult like behavior then I don’t know what to tell you. Again, go tell moderates and liberals they’ve pushed us for too long. That’s your only hope at this point. I’m done.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Justify it all you want, your behavior is selfish and self-destructive. It is child-like. It is throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle because Mom won’t buy you Cocoa Pebbles. Dressing it up in these flimsy, asinine justifications doesn’t make you sound smart, it makes you sound deluded.

    go_go_gadget, (edited )

    It is throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle because Mom won’t buy you Cocoa Pebbles.

    Why are you using this example to justify how democracy works? Who is “mom” in this situation? Why do they get to decide what we eat? Why would I need someone else to buy something for me? Why are you accusing me of acting like a child but the example simply defines me as a child? I’m not a child therefore I decide what I eat. Change your example to “You as a fully grown adult have decided what to eat” and suddenly my behavior is completely appropriate.

    Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

    Justify it all you want, your behavior is selfish and self-destructive.

    I have no interest in your assessment. I have something you want and you would say anything to get it for free. The answer is “no this is mine you can’t have it for free”. You are reacting like a child to that statement.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok, it seems you’re having trouble penetrating the depths of what is a fairly easy metaphor to grasp, so I’ll break it down for you.

    You complain that Biden (and presumably most, if not all Democratic presidents thusfar) caters to liberal and moderate political positions, but alienates progressives. You then stated that if he were instead to cater towards progressive positions, it would alienate liberals and moderates. To quote you:

    Simply put, people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

    So you ostensibly believe that Biden is in a no-win position, in which he will alienate either the progressives or the more moderate sections of his party. So far, so fine. However, where an adult would recognize that the system is imperfect and that it is not likely to improve by November, you whine and pout that you’re not getting your way (ie. having a president that caters to your political desires), and so you’re going to throw a tantrum in the cereal aisle (refuse to vote, thus making it more likely that someone who caters to your political desires far less than Biden would will become president).

    It’s a really simple analogy. And the thing is, I think you recognize that you are being childish. It would certainly explain why you were so reluctant to say that Trump would be worse for America than Biden - you recognized that you would rightly be called out for immaturity because you were prioritizing your selfish need for attention over the good of the nation.

    Basically, I think that you know that you are selfish and immature, but you also are self-conscious about that fact. I think that instead of going through some much needed self-reflection, you instead lash out at the world, because that’s a much easier way to salve your ego. I really hope that you do at some point reflect on your actions (or inactions, as the case currently stands), and begin the long and painful process of growing from it. You seem savvy enough to be able to actually contribute in a way that could make a difference, if only you manage to get out of your own way. Until then, you probably shouldn’t be surprised that acting like a child leads people to treat you like a child.

    go_go_gadget,

    It’s a really simple analogy.

    The analogy is simple sure. But you didn’t answer a single question about the parallels. I am an adult living in a democracy so I decide who I will vote for. Go ahead and try to explain to me how that’s at all parallel to me being a child not doing what a parent and provider has told me to do. You can’t, because there is no parallel.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s a tantrum. You are selfishly choosing to harm others because you aren’t being catered to.

    go_go_gadget, (edited )

    So are we in agreement there are no parallels? There is no mom? Nobody is picking out cereal for me? You just gave an example of a tantrum and called it an analogy?

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Honestly, my friend, you’re reading way too much into it. I expect in a desire to claw back some semblence of a win in order to salve your bruised ego, but hey - I’m not a psychologist. It was a really simple analogy. You’re just being pedantic at this point. You don’t need to find an exact parallel between every facet of the analogy and your situation for it to make sense.

    go_go_gadget,

    Buddy, you’re here lecturing me that I’m a child and you don’t know the difference between an example and an analogy. Or worse it actually is an analogy because you believe that there is a “mom” in this situation and I should shut up and do what I’m told. You’re not angry at me for acting like a child. Quite the opposite, you’re angry at me for not acting like a child.

    My vote is mine and you cannot have it for free. You want it? Work with Biden and get him to make material compromises with leftists and progressives. Anything else is you throwing a tantrum.

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    I think it’s kind of hilarious that you’re arguing so angrily and vehemently that you are not throwing a tantrum right now to some random stranger on the internet who called you childish. You’re kind of making my day. <3

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

    they didn’t say they believe this

    elbucho,
    @elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok? I fail to see how what you pointed out in any way changes my response.

    federatingIsTooHard,
    @federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

    your argument supposes they believe that. you literally said that’s a premise.

    prole,

    How apropos… Confidently telling everyone why Hilary is wrong while clearly not even reading the article. Classic.

    pulaskiwasright,

    Horrendous, insulting, out of touch phrasing from her as usual too. The democrats spending years propping her up and then stacking the deck in her favor in the primary are why we had Trump as president. She was the only person predicted to lose to him.

    ashok36,

    Obama could get away with telling potential voters to get over themselves. Clinton has none of the cachet that Obama or even Biden to a less extent has. She should be embarrassed to show her face in public at this point.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • news@lemmy.world
  • thenastyranch
  • DreamBathrooms
  • tacticalgear
  • magazineikmin
  • khanakhh
  • everett
  • Youngstown
  • mdbf
  • slotface
  • rosin
  • ethstaker
  • InstantRegret
  • kavyap
  • ngwrru68w68
  • megavids
  • cisconetworking
  • cubers
  • osvaldo12
  • modclub
  • GTA5RPClips
  • tester
  • Durango
  • provamag3
  • anitta
  • Leos
  • normalnudes
  • JUstTest
  • lostlight
  • All magazines
    •