Hillary Clinton tells voters to 'get over yourself' when it comes to Biden-Trump rematch

With a electoral system like Ranked Choice voting, people would feel safe to vote for whomsoever they wish, as their vote would still be counted even if their preference didn’t win.

Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoiler effect exists.

Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.

Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Republicans LOVE first past the post voting. Just sbsolutely adore it. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans want?

More political parties means a higher percentage of the population is represented by their choices in the voting booth. More people involved in the electoral process, more people engaged.

Its a win win win all around for not just the people, but also for the democratic party. More people voting means more democratic votes. The numbers dont lie. So what’s the hold up blue states?

Some day we will be able to vote for who best represents our interests. We won’t need to grovel on our knees, begging for representationin government. We won’t need to wait for the Republican party to stop existing.

We can do it right now. We don’t have to get over a damn thing. If anyone needs to get over themselves, it would be the democrats who assume they are the only way forward.

Consider starting a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Please go away, get out of public life and stop “helping.”

Being a dick to people is not going to get them to vote your way. Same with the ‘deplorables’ comment. I agreed with her on it, but it was a stupid thing to say in an election.

ShepherdPie,

I think the deplorables comment would have been fine if they did try to cowardly walk it back immediately after in the typical miquetoast, ‘cater to everyone’ Democratic fashion.

PhlubbaDubba,

Maybe they wouldn’t have thought they had to if they could have counted on the left for any of the energy coming up with reasons why them not voting is everyone else’s fault.

The white left being shocked and outraged that they in fact do not get to call themselves the base when they have to be dragged kicking and screaming by their hair just to get into a poll booth, never mind to not be a fucking moron and vote green or some shit, never ceases to amaze me.

The Tea Party are the Republican base because they don’t have to be convinced to show up for the general you entitled fucking morons.

ShepherdPie,

Oh right, when you’re running in a popularity contest and lose, it’s the fault of the people voting not your own. The fact that she couldn’t even be more appealing than a known conman, failed businessman, and reality TV host with zero political experience really says a lot.

PhlubbaDubba,

When those people voting let a fascist in, then yes, it is in fact their fault.

If you need more convincing than “that guy is a fascist” to be doing everything in your power yes including voting you dumbass to stop him from coming to power, you’re a fucking fascist, doesn’t matter how many pride flags you cram in your bio, doesn’t matter how many times you say your Hail Marries Genocide Joes, when it came down to it you chose letting fascism win over sucking it up for someone who’s greatest sin was not delivering St. Bernard his rightful throne over something as petty as he got 3 million less fucking votes than her because you shitlord cunts don’t even turn out for your own guy.

Bernie deserved better than you. It’s because of voters like you that the DNC has been drifting right, because why bother trying left when all they’re met with is unreliable and underperformant apathy for turnout, when playing the center gets voters who show up to the ballot without even fucking knowing all the offices that are gonna be up on it because at least they remember the whole civic duty part of their public school education!

go_go_gadget,

Rather than calling us names how about making material compromises with us?

go_go_gadget,

Explain something to me. How can you simultaneously believe we don’t vote but care that we don’t vote? Biden won the 2020 general election so if we didn’t vote for him then who cares if we won’t vote for him in 2024?

So which is it?

Ensign_Crab,

“Cater to everyone but the left”

batmaniam,

It wouldn’t have. That’s when I knew we were screwed.

Pandantic,
@Pandantic@midwest.social avatar

Yes, it’s like she took notes from her husband, but isn’t Smooth Willy enough to pull it off. I think it’s because deep down, she is just a bitch.

Zahille7,

South Park said it best: “my wife is a crazy bitch.”

some_guy,

Lewis Black said her problem was that she never went away. I’d say that’s pretty spot on. Shitheads wants attention, wants to be important. Maybe if she’d given the public a break and then came back for a second act it would have been different for her. But we’re still in act one and it never ends.

Hackerman_uwu,

I’m still convinced that only person insufferable enough to lose to Donald fucking Trump in 2016 was Hillary Clinton.

You can hate it all you want but in some level it’s a popularity contest and she is utterly utterly unlikeable.

Her smarmy q&a with those millennials was a fucking PR nightmare.

distantsounds,

Hilary propped up Trump. Never forget that. The political turmoil we are currently in is directly because or her. Fuck her and the DNC

cooljacob204,

I don't think it's fair to put Trump all on her. If we were to ask anyone 10 years ago if someone like Trump could win the presidency we all would have laughed. No surprise they tried to prop up an opposing candidate they thought was bad.

DragonTypeWyvern,

The Simpsons warned her, and she did it anyways.

Silverseren,

Yeah, that was exactly the feeling at the time. No one saw Trump coming.

I can only assume people making claims otherwise now are kids who have no understanding of the history involved.

PhlubbaDubba,

Not just kids, white kids, nobody else needs to have it explained to them why throwing the election to punish the establishment does nothing to help anyone and in fact makes you not just a collaborator, but the most insidious and/or idiotic sort of one imaginable.

Their thinking is either, “I know how to defeat the fascists! Let the fascists win!” or much more likely underneath, “I know exactly where I stand on the hit list, I can wait it out for enough bodies to pile up so I can file my demands with the bodies as set dressing!”

The white left would see us all be made corpses before they ever tolerated the possibility that we might not choose to follow them without being convinced and compromised with.

treefrog,

I’ve read through several of your comments in this thread. Do you know any IRL leftists, or are you just assuming everyone is white from talking to people on lemmy?

Most of the leftists I know IRL aren’t white. And I’m sure some of them didn’t bother to vote for Hillary.

PhlubbaDubba,

Literally everyone I know is either a leftist or comfortable in leftist spaces, and literally everyone I know thinks that the white “left” fuckasses who threw 2016 because counting votes instead of individual donors didn’t let them feel pandered to enough aren’t worth the air they breathe to spew their bullshit about what we made them do to us.

Dobbs is the white “left’s” child, they had the chance to abort, but they actively chose not to, and now they don’t get to abandon that child just because the fact that it wanders the neighborhood skinning small animals reflects bad on them.

Any real leftist with functioning brain cells either voted for Hillary or has owned up to the severe mistake that not doing that was, anyone else is just red-washing them being a fascist collaborator, and would live to see trial among the rest of the lot if the revolution they claim they want instead of voting ever actually came.

They don’t get to call themselves socialists while selling out the common laborer to republican governance, they don’t get to call themselves an ally while standing by as women are hung by the umbilical chord because republicans would rather let them die than allow the possibility that a woman can “pull a fast one on them,” they don’t get to call themselves anti-imperialists while making space for the president who handed Israel Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights getting back into office if it means they get to feel valid about using my people’s corpses as set dressing for the whole sickening display they want to paint for themselves as the saviors of us lowly ungratefuls who shall descend upon us with their divinely inspired marching orders that will surely brint about world peace and global communist revolution and surely won’t just get us all killed while they sigh and gaslight the survivors about how we just didn’t revolution hard enough for their brilliant plans to work.

treefrog,

I feel you. I just know a lot of black leftists that fall into that camp, so you constantly saying white leftists didn’t fit with my world view.

PhlubbaDubba,

I emphasize white because it’s white mindset

Willful blindness to the perspective of the PoC who find themselves most at risk whenever one of these vote strike or punishment vote movements spins up

Carlo,

I agree that any leftist person with two brain cells to rub together ought to have voted for Clinton in the general. I voted Sanders in the primary, and I certainly turned out for her. Maybe it’s just because I’ve blocked most of the tankie dipshits masquerading as leftists, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim otherwise that wasn’t a bona fide fash.

I do think it’s both fallacious and counterproductive to blame Sanders supporters for Clinton’s loss, considering they voted for her at a much higher rate than Clinton’s own supporters did for Obama in 2008. Fully 25% of Clinton’s 2008 primary supporters voted McCain in the general. By comparison, only 12% of Sanders supporters voted Trump.

CancerMancer,

I saw Trump coming. He did something no one else was doing at the time: acknowledge just how miserable life was for many Americans at the time. Other politicians have been content to pretend everything is great save for their pet policy projects, Trump said it’s all bad. In a post-COVID world this would be more effective save for his own history of failure and inaction, but people often have short memories and they will forget quickly if they get angry about something else.

Last thing anyone needs is the narcissist Hillary Clinton inserting herself where she doesn’t belong. I imagine voting enthusiasm will already be low because the choice between a failed conman and Weekend at Biden’s isn’t particularly enticing, so maybe Hillary can just fuck off for a bit and not make it worse.

Ensign_Crab,

I don’t think it’s fair to put Trump all on her

Why not? Her supporters blame Trump on anyone who ever thought about voting for Sanders in the primaries, regardless of who they voted for in the general, and have for nearly 8 years now.

Sanders campaigned for her in states she ignored because they were full of worthless flyover hayseeds who were beneath her. Her campaign didn’t seem to understand how the electoral college functions.

Her campaign WANTED to go up against Trump because they were unforgivably stupid enough to think that Republicans would be less energized by a charismatic con man than by Jeb Bush, Republicans’ presumptive frontrunner that no one wanted.

Clinton earned her loss multiple times over.

Ensign_Crab,

She got her second choice in 2016, like all centrists did.

Silverseren,

Since when was she a centrist? Her congressional voting and action history put her way left of the party, way farther than Obama, and second only to Bernie Sanders.

anticolonialist,

Blink 2 times if you are being held against your will

Silverseren,

Apologies for actually knowing the history of the subject. I've had these debates with misinformed people on subject regarding Clinton, Biden, and so many others going back years. For some reason, far left people actively fall for made up right wing BS claims about Democrats.

anticolonialist,

Liberals translate ‘misinformed’ to mean anything I don’t like

Ensign_Crab,

Lie to someone else. Obama won the 2008 primaries because his healthcare plan was to the left of Clinton’s.

Centrists in congress made sure to limit Obama’s plan to what Clinton ran on.

She’s nothing but a centrist.

Silverseren,

Wait, wait, wait, are we talking about the healthcare plan that was fundamentally based on the individual mandate from the Heritage Foundation?

Also, are you referring to this plan from Hillary?

Ensign_Crab,

Yes and yes. Obama ran on a public option and no individual mandate. Clinton ran on no public option and an individual mandate. The Heritage Foundation plan was still to the left of what Clinton ran on.

We got what Clinton wanted, but the voters wanted what Obama was selling. Even though it turned out to be a bill of goods.

I remember the 08 campaign. Her cronies also made a huge stink about flag pins, started the “Obama isn’t a citizen” rumors that Trump would run with later, and once she had lost the nomination because the party didn’t successfully quash her opposition for her, her supporters started a PAC to get McCain/Palin elected because Clinton’s cult would rather have Palin as VP than have a black man be president.

Clinton’s VP pick of Tim Kaine in 2016 was an additional “fuck you” to everyone to her left. I get that you’re trying to pretend that Clinton is someone that the left should be happy with, but Clinton is centrist at best. She’s a corporate owned neoliberal from the “triangulate between the meekest Democrat and the vilest republican” Third Way James Carville wing of the party.

Yes, she is absolutely a centrist.

CancerMancer,

Hillary Clinton is an avid follower of the Iron Law of Institutions

batmaniam,

She openly opposed gay marriage as a NYS senator. Her career has been over long before 2016.

Silverseren,

Oh, fun, we're going back to the usual BS that tried to be thrown at her, despite her having the longest history of supporting the LGBT community out of anyone involved. I also remember leftists getting super pissed off when so many of the LGBT community supported her (though not the young ones who didn't live through the period) because of her long history of supporting the community and being there, both personally and with her political position.

With her being likely the first Congressperson to force equal federal compensation and benefits for same sex couples that worked in her office or, later as SoS, who were in her department. Even if those couples weren't married in the time period before that became legal.

batmaniam,

Basic human rights are not subject to pragmatism. She wound up where she needed to be.

CooperRedArmyDog,

I agree she is not a centrist, but she is a fucking right wing ghoul … so is Obama btw

SnotFlickerman,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

politico.com/…/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-…

So to take Bush down, Clinton’s team drew up a plan to pump Trump up. Shortly after her kickoff, top aides organized a strategy call, whose agenda included a memo to the Democratic National Committee: “This memo is intended to outline the strategy and goals a potential Hillary Clinton presidential campaign would have regarding the 2016 Republican presidential field,” it read.

“The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the more extreme candidates, but make them more ‘Pied Piper’ candidates who actually represent the mainstream of the Republican Party,” read the memo.

“Pied Piper candidates include, but aren’t limited to:

• Ted Cruz

• Donald Trump

• Ben Carson

We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to [take] them seriously."

While the campaign also kept a close eye on Rubio, monitoring his announcement speech and tightly designing the tweeted responses to his moves, Clinton’s team in Brooklyn was delightedly puzzled by Trump’s shift into the pole position that July after attacking John McCain by declaring, “I like people who weren’t captured.”

Eleven days after those comments about McCain, Clinton aides sought to push the plan even further: An agenda item for top aides’ message planning meeting read, “How do we prevent Bush from bettering himself/how do we maximize Trump and others?"

Maeve,

Wow. I can't believe I missed that. How much more do the American public need to understand we are a nation ruled by kleptocrats? Thanks for this.

Entropywins,
Entropywins avatar

I remember something like this happening in Germany...some people like Von schleicher and Von Papen thinking if they propped up Hitler it would help the conservative old Gaurd consolidate power...not exactly the same but it looks the same and smells like shit to me

PhlubbaDubba,

I remember something similar, the far left in Germany stabbing the Social Democrats in the back thinking Hitler coming to power would teach those establishment politicians a lesson and surely they’d get to bulldoze their way to lead next time!

“First Hitler, then Our Turn.”

fuego,

We literally had Trump instead of Bernie because she couldn’t get over herself.

Buddahriffic,

Neolibs would rather see a descent into fascism than a true progressive agenda because billionaires will still thrive under the former. Sure, there’s the whole die roll about who gets caught up in the purges, but a real progressive administration could lead to less free money for them. The DNC would rather hand the reigns to the GOP while it sorts out the problem of people wanting a candidate like Bernie.

inb4_FoundTheVegan,
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

Two things can be true at the same time.

  1. She is a target of mysgonstic flavored consisparcy theories.
  2. She truly is unlikeable with half measure policies while being woefully out of touch with the average person.
madcaesar,
  1. She is / was 100x more qualified than Trump.
  2. American voters are idiots.
AWistfulNihilist,

And yet, unelectable!

Cethin,

It’s easy to be more qualified than totally unqualified. She was the obvious choice, but her total lack of charisma to voters destroyed that.

Garbanzo,

The worst part is that more people voted for her, just not where it counts because she couldn’t be bothered to campaign there

Makhno,

Yeah, cause she’s an elitist piece of shit, which makes her unqualified to anyone with a fuckin brain.

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein,

Ok, but she got more votes across the nation in a nationwide election for a Federal job, so…?

bl_r,

As shitty as this sounds, does it matter whether or not she won the popular vote if that was not the metric for winning?

She, a career politician, should know that and her strategy was lacking.

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein,

Oh, for sure, she should have had a better strategy. I don’t disagree that she ran a terrible campaign. But OP said “more people voted for her” despite her bad strategy, which is true and frankly should have been a national point of months of protests. But instead, the person I responded to implied it doesn’t matter because she’s [insert stereotypical Clinton hate vomit].

It does matter. She did get more votes. That is in fact a fairer and more just way of representing a national vote for a national/Federal position. We all know there’s an electoral college. But there absolutely shouldn’t be because it inherently counts some votes as more valuable than others, which is frankly incompatible with democracy. So yes, that definitely matters.

bl_r,

I agree with you, i just meant it in a plain cause and effect sort of way. It doesn’t matter in the sense that it is not a metric that matters for determining the outcome in the election, just an indicator of popularity.

Also, makhno said that she didn’t campaign in key states because of her elitism, and that attitude makes her less qualified. They didn’t say that it didn’t matter because of it.

Democracy, in the American sense, is a scam, and at the presidential level it’s the same mechanism from the ground up, full of antidemocratic mechanisms.

Makhno, (edited )

Cause people are idiots…?

And she stole the election from Bernie…?

Xanis,

Still more qualified than the woefully unqualified, elitist trash that is Trump. Lol

Makhno,

Sure, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Dem shills are dumb as fuck too, just not blatantly malicious like Republicans

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar
  1. She should have run on a platform that was better than “What else are you going to do, vote for Trump?”
Passerby6497,
  1. She shouldn’t have pushed trump as the pied Piper candidate in the first place.
PriorityMotif,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

She’s from the Chicago suburbs, fuck that entitled bitch.

Sterile_Technique,
@Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

As the one and only person to ever lose to Trump, ya might want to sit this one out.

Hillary has value as a lightning rod for right-wing hatred. All she has to do is show her face and the rednecks will lose their mind. She should be talking about things like Benghazi or emails - troll the trumpanzees with shit they won’t be able to resist, and keep em off the rest of the blue team’s back.

Her chiming in on pretty much any other topic just weighs it down with per perceived baggage.

thesystemisdown,

Hillary Clinton is irrelevant, and should get over herself.

Pandantic,
@Pandantic@midwest.social avatar

And always makes things worse. Just shut up already.

norbert,
norbert avatar

Rich old bat, nobody cares; she might not be first for the guillotine but she's definitely in the queue.

Silverseren,

What political side even are you? I assume some far left tankie idiocy.

aniki,

Taking sides in politics is just about the most pointless thing you can possibly do with your existence on this earth. They don’t know you. No one cares. It’s not a team sport.

Silverseren,

So caring about things and the world is pointless?

iheartneopets,

If it’s caring about “picking sides” in politics like it’s a sporting match, yes.

GBU_28,

They don’t like to hear it, because the guillotine jokes are comforting to them, but calling for the mass execution of undesirables (no matter the flavor) is the most authoritarian loving thing there is. 100% tankie shit.

There are massive changes that need to happen in the west, but revolt and execution are not it.

They are just hoping they’ll be in the “in” crowd when the violence starts, not realizing that by a small whim of chance, they could actually be the ones being hunted. Wouldn’t be a comforting joke then.

PhlubbaDubba,

I just hope they never try making those jokes in Germany, I don’t think their Bougyevik hearts could handle the irony of being prosecuted for accidentally stanning the most popular method of execution outside the camps during the Nazi reign of terror.

Silverseren,

Robespierre definitely found that one out.

GBU_28,

Yup

DragonTypeWyvern,

She should go hang out with her buddy Henry Kissinger, whatever he’s up to these days.

SeaJ,

She really just needs to get over herself and shut the fuck up. She lost to Trump. Why the fuck would anyone listen to her on how to beat him?

SnotFlickerman, (edited )
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

OK Boomer.

I’m voting for Biden but I’m not obligated to be excited or happy about it or to not critique it for the DNC. It’s a choice between a lawful neutral (at best) milquetoast waffling imperial fuckhead and an outright chaotic evil dictatorial megalomaniac imperial fuckhead. One choice is clearly superior but that’s the choice that’s also dangling the more dangerous choice over me like a threat as the only reason to vote for them. That’s pretty fucking abusive, if you ask me.

Talking down to voters with stuff like “Why don’t you go run for something, then?” worked out so well for her before, right?

Boozilla,
@Boozilla@lemmy.world avatar

Well said. The two front runners are like creepy old lords from Game of Thrones or something. One is much worse, but neither is good.

The Clintons need to retire quietly, nobody wants their input.

kent_eh,

One is much worse, but neither is good.

Given that one of them will be president after the election, it should be obvious that preventing the much worse option is in everyone’s best interest.

msage,

It’s like the fucking Trolley problem, but blaming the entire setup on the person next to the switch.

Who put that person there? Why are we shifting the blame on them? Stop the trolley, don’t act all smug pointing fingers screaming “noone normal would let the trolley go straight”.

scaredoftrumpwinning,

South Park called it long ago and it still fits. It fits with Hillary and Trump back in 2016 and today. It’s a choice between a shit sandwich and a douche bag. They just missed the part where one is hell bent on destroying our democracy and then added a season with Mr Garrison as president.

Now we are repeating history and might put “Garrison” in charge again. I never liked history but I didn’t think we were this dumb it hasn’t even been a decade but that’s more to do with brain washing

noxy,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

shut the fuck up forever hillary

HelixDab2,

She needs to learn to shut the fuck up, because she doesn’t help.

This is like telling your SO to ‘just calm down’ when they’re really angry about something.

teamevil,

We DEFINITELY don’t need her help with any elections.

jeffw,

Like “basket of deplorables,” she’s not wrong. She just shouldn’t be saying it because it can only really hurt things

PapaStevesy,

Nah, she’s wrong. The only way to “get over ourselves” in this situation is to stop caring about the present and future of our country and world.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Right message, very much the wrong messenger. Like it or not, Hillary, a significant number of people in this country despise you. I don’t think that’s at all fair, but them’s the breaks. You’re not helping.

Ensign_Crab,

“Shut up, you’re voting for who we want you to vote for because we say so” is never the right message. Centrists will never think of another one.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

That wasn’t really the message. The message is more: “Please stop with the hyperbole. You know that Donald Trump is the worst possible candidate imaginable.” Which is absolutely true.

Ensign_Crab,

“No, what he really means is…” - the trumpists you sound like.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

You ok, bud?

Garbanzo,

You know that Donald Trump is the worst possible candidate imaginable.

Yes, I know that. That’s why I changed my voter registration to Republican and voted for Nikki Haley in the primaries. I don’t particularly like her, but she’s better than the worst possible candidate imaginable. Trump could have been kicked to the curb but I guess the uncommitted protest vote against Biden was more important.

go_go_gadget,

Ok? Then Biden should be begging for votes, doing anything within his power to get progressive and leftist votes and telling moderates and liberals to get over themselves.

No? Oh so just more of the same finger wagging from the usual suspects convinced that one more lecture should do the trick.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, I agree it would be great if Biden was a better candidate. I’d be a whole lot less worried about a second Trump presidency if that were the case. But he’s not a better candidate. He is who he is. And though he hasn’t earned your vote, you should give it to him anyway because it’s in your best interest to do so.

go_go_gadget,

you should give it to him anyway because it’s in your best interest to do so.

No.

Focus your lectures on moderates and liberals for once in your goddamn life. I’m done being held to a different standard.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Ok, so what’s your solution, then? Actually - first, let’s make sure we’re on the same page about the basics: do you agree that Donald Trump would be fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden? Second, do you agree that any candidate other than the winners of the Democratic and Republican primaries basically stands no chance of becoming president?

go_go_gadget,

Again, ask moderates and liberals that question. And then ask them if Trump is such a danger why didn’t they fume at Biden for blocking the rail strike? Or raising the defense budget? Or forcing federal workers back to the office? Or going around Congress to ship weapons to Gaza? Why didn’t they do anything in support of progressives and leftists for the past three years?

Why is it the people who have gotten fucked over by Biden are being told to vote for him rather than telling Biden, moderate voters and liberal voters they cannot win elections on their own and thus they must make material compromises with the people they’re depending on?

You’re trying to squeeze blood from a stone here. I’m telling you I’m done propping up procorporate trash candidates for moderate and liberal voters. If they would rather lose to MAGA than make material compromises with leftists and progressives that’s on them.

If Biden really believes Trump is such a a danger then he should be on his knees begging for votes. Or is his ego worth more than democracy?

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Ok - you didn’t answer either question. You gave me a bunch of reasons why you dislike Biden, but no opinion on whether a second Trump presidency would be worse for America than a second Biden presidency. This isn’t a trap; I want to know whether we have a basic level of agreement here.

go_go_gadget,

Buddy, stop.

What you’re doing isn’t clever, nor effective. You need to hold a mirror up to what you’re doing and realize you are attempting to hold me to a different standard than moderates and liberals. Let me know when you’re ready to hold them accountable and bring us both to the table. All you’re doing here is trying to do what people like you always do: Get progressives and leftists to give up anything and everything while giving moderates and liberals a free pass.

No. Biden cannot have my vote until something changes.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

What you’re doing isn’t clever, nor effective.

Well now I’m very curious as to what you think I’m doing. Because I think I’m asking you to make a judgment call about which of the two candidates who have a shot at becoming president would be better for America. It’s a very simple question. What do you think I’m doing?

go_go_gadget,

you are attempting to hold me to a different standard than moderates and liberals.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to explain that to me. I have no idea what you mean by that. How is asking you your opinion on the relative impact of each potential president holding you to a standard at all, let alone one that’s “different from moderates and liberals”? It’s not a difficult question. Do you not know the answer?

go_go_gadget,

Have you asked any moderates or liberals that question?

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, probably? If someone decides that they don’t want to vote because they have a moral quandary with voting for the “lesser of the two evils”, then that person doesn’t make rational sense to me. So I’d be curious. Their political leanings don’t really matter in that scenario. Out of curiosity, why would you think that I wouldn’t ask the same questions of anybody else who said the same things you did? I mean, you’re just text on a screen to me. I don’t know you from Adam, so why would you think that I would have intimate knowledge of your political positions at the outset of our conversation?

go_go_gadget,

? If someone decides that they don’t want to vote because they have a moral quandary with voting for the “lesser of the two evils”

Moderates and liberals do have such a quandary. It’s used as the reason why Biden blocked the rail strike, why he negotiated down on his own campaign promise for student loan forgiveness and why he didn’t cut off weapon shipments to Israel. Simply put, people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know who is making that argument, but it is a stupid argument. And besides, it doesn’t address the point at all. If, for example, Biden made those material compromises with progressives that you describe, and a “moderate” or “liberal” decides not to vote for him when his opponent is Donald Trump, then I would be in the exact same situation with them that I am currently in with you: asking them “do you believe that Donald Trump is fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden”?

You’ve argued that I am holding you to a different standard by asking it, but have just demonstrated that that is nonsense. So will you answer now?

go_go_gadget,

I don’t know who is making that argument, but it is a stupid argument. And besides, it doesn’t address the point at all. If, for example, Biden made those material compromises with progressives that you describe, and a “moderate” or “liberal” decides not to vote for him when his opponent is Donald Trump, then I would be in the exact same situation with them that I am currently in with you: asking them “do you believe that Donald Trump is fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden”?

That’s the point though. Nobody asks that of moderates. They keep getting exactly what they want and zero questions about it. Meanwhile progressives and leftists are expected to capitulate everything to the slightest wiff that moderates and liberals would abandon the party.

I’m done. The roles are reversed now. From now on I won’t vote for candidates who won’t give me what I want. So you’ll have to hope moderates and liberals are ready to suck it up for a bit.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Ok, you’re still failing to get it. I think it’s not a question of a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather of mulish obstinance. I get it - you don’t like Biden because he doesn’t cater to your politics. Boo fucking hoo. He doesn’t cater to mine either, but I’m voting for him anyway because I’m not a petulant child. The problems this country is facing are far larger than the tiny myopic view you’re choosing to adopt. One candidate doesn’t care very much about progressive causes, and the other one is a wannabe dictator. At some point, you’ve got to grow up and realize that your priorities are completely out of whack.

Do you think that Donald Trump would prioritize women’s reproductive freedom? Do you think that he would work to ensure that gay marriage isn’t overturned by a supreme court who has already talked about the possibility of overturning Obergefell v Hodges?

You complain that Biden broke the railroad strike. Do you think that Trump would be any better? Trump, the guy who thinks so little of the common worker that he often refuses to pay his contractors.

You complain about Biden supporting Israel. Do you think that Trump, the guy who had the US embassy moved to Jerusalem over the extremely vocal opposition of Palestine, would be any better?

I don’t think that you’re insane, so I think you probably recognize that Donald Trump would be very bad for the causes you supposedly represent. Certainly worse for them than Joe Biden would. But, you’re too focused on the dopamine hit that “taking the moral high ground” would represent to realize that your choices will make it more likely that Donald Trump will become president again.

There are precisely two candidates who have a shot at this. Both are bad. But one is miles worse than the other. Not voting, or voting third party isn’t as bad as voting for Trump, certainly, but it doesn’t help any of the rest of us out either. The fact is, there are 71 million people who voted for Trump in 2020. Those people will likely vote for him again. Which means that there needs to be significantly higher numbers of people voting for Biden to ensure that that orange fuck doesn’t assume office again.

When I said that giving your vote to Biden would be in your own self interest, this is what I meant. You wouldn’t be the first person to hold your nose at the ballot box because you wanted to avert a greater catastrophe. That’s not compromising your principles. It’s just being an adult and realizing that you’re not always going to get your way, and that taking your ball and going home is a child’s way out.

go_go_gadget,

but rather of mulish obstinance

Yes. After decades of watching mulish obstinance by moderates and liberals resulting in the party and every commenter like yourself bending over backwards to serve them I’m gonna give it a try.

There are precisely two candidates who have a shot at this.

Then you better hope Biden doesn’t need my vote or starts acting like it real fast.

It’s just being an adult and realizing that you’re not always going to get your way

We’ve never gotten our way. If you think drawing a line at 20 years of patience isn’t sufficient to qualify as adult like behavior then I don’t know what to tell you. Again, go tell moderates and liberals they’ve pushed us for too long. That’s your only hope at this point. I’m done.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Justify it all you want, your behavior is selfish and self-destructive. It is child-like. It is throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle because Mom won’t buy you Cocoa Pebbles. Dressing it up in these flimsy, asinine justifications doesn’t make you sound smart, it makes you sound deluded.

go_go_gadget, (edited )

It is throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle because Mom won’t buy you Cocoa Pebbles.

Why are you using this example to justify how democracy works? Who is “mom” in this situation? Why do they get to decide what we eat? Why would I need someone else to buy something for me? Why are you accusing me of acting like a child but the example simply defines me as a child? I’m not a child therefore I decide what I eat. Change your example to “You as a fully grown adult have decided what to eat” and suddenly my behavior is completely appropriate.

Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Justify it all you want, your behavior is selfish and self-destructive.

I have no interest in your assessment. I have something you want and you would say anything to get it for free. The answer is “no this is mine you can’t have it for free”. You are reacting like a child to that statement.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Ok, it seems you’re having trouble penetrating the depths of what is a fairly easy metaphor to grasp, so I’ll break it down for you.

You complain that Biden (and presumably most, if not all Democratic presidents thusfar) caters to liberal and moderate political positions, but alienates progressives. You then stated that if he were instead to cater towards progressive positions, it would alienate liberals and moderates. To quote you:

Simply put, people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

So you ostensibly believe that Biden is in a no-win position, in which he will alienate either the progressives or the more moderate sections of his party. So far, so fine. However, where an adult would recognize that the system is imperfect and that it is not likely to improve by November, you whine and pout that you’re not getting your way (ie. having a president that caters to your political desires), and so you’re going to throw a tantrum in the cereal aisle (refuse to vote, thus making it more likely that someone who caters to your political desires far less than Biden would will become president).

It’s a really simple analogy. And the thing is, I think you recognize that you are being childish. It would certainly explain why you were so reluctant to say that Trump would be worse for America than Biden - you recognized that you would rightly be called out for immaturity because you were prioritizing your selfish need for attention over the good of the nation.

Basically, I think that you know that you are selfish and immature, but you also are self-conscious about that fact. I think that instead of going through some much needed self-reflection, you instead lash out at the world, because that’s a much easier way to salve your ego. I really hope that you do at some point reflect on your actions (or inactions, as the case currently stands), and begin the long and painful process of growing from it. You seem savvy enough to be able to actually contribute in a way that could make a difference, if only you manage to get out of your own way. Until then, you probably shouldn’t be surprised that acting like a child leads people to treat you like a child.

go_go_gadget,

It’s a really simple analogy.

The analogy is simple sure. But you didn’t answer a single question about the parallels. I am an adult living in a democracy so I decide who I will vote for. Go ahead and try to explain to me how that’s at all parallel to me being a child not doing what a parent and provider has told me to do. You can’t, because there is no parallel.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

It’s a tantrum. You are selfishly choosing to harm others because you aren’t being catered to.

go_go_gadget, (edited )

So are we in agreement there are no parallels? There is no mom? Nobody is picking out cereal for me? You just gave an example of a tantrum and called it an analogy?

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly, my friend, you’re reading way too much into it. I expect in a desire to claw back some semblence of a win in order to salve your bruised ego, but hey - I’m not a psychologist. It was a really simple analogy. You’re just being pedantic at this point. You don’t need to find an exact parallel between every facet of the analogy and your situation for it to make sense.

go_go_gadget,

Buddy, you’re here lecturing me that I’m a child and you don’t know the difference between an example and an analogy. Or worse it actually is an analogy because you believe that there is a “mom” in this situation and I should shut up and do what I’m told. You’re not angry at me for acting like a child. Quite the opposite, you’re angry at me for not acting like a child.

My vote is mine and you cannot have it for free. You want it? Work with Biden and get him to make material compromises with leftists and progressives. Anything else is you throwing a tantrum.

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

I think it’s kind of hilarious that you’re arguing so angrily and vehemently that you are not throwing a tantrum right now to some random stranger on the internet who called you childish. You’re kind of making my day. <3

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn’t vote for him.

they didn’t say they believe this

elbucho,
@elbucho@lemmy.world avatar

Ok? I fail to see how what you pointed out in any way changes my response.

federatingIsTooHard,
@federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world avatar

your argument supposes they believe that. you literally said that’s a premise.

prole,

How apropos… Confidently telling everyone why Hilary is wrong while clearly not even reading the article. Classic.

pulaskiwasright,

Horrendous, insulting, out of touch phrasing from her as usual too. The democrats spending years propping her up and then stacking the deck in her favor in the primary are why we had Trump as president. She was the only person predicted to lose to him.

ashok36,

Obama could get away with telling potential voters to get over themselves. Clinton has none of the cachet that Obama or even Biden to a less extent has. She should be embarrassed to show her face in public at this point.

mercano,
@mercano@lemmy.world avatar

Ah, yes, entitlement, that’ll resonate with disaffected voters.

Ensign_Crab,

She’s saying what every lemmy Centrist has been saying, only with less condescension and she managed to say it without calling anyone a Russian.

I’m surprised she’s getting so much hate. Maybe she’s not being entitled enough and centrists perceive her as being to their left.

kent_eh,

I’m surprised she’s getting so much hate.

It seems that for some of these haters, all she has to do to get hate is to exist.

nightofmichelinstars,

It’s not what she’s saying here that’s the problem, it’s that she fucked up her own campaign so badly by keeping her smug entitled head so firmly up her ass that we got Trump. Personally, I don’t want see her in the public eye or hear her opinions ever again, even the ones I agree with.

Ensign_Crab,

It’s not what she’s saying here that’s the problem, it’s that she fucked up her own campaign so badly by keeping her smug entitled head so firmly up her ass that we got Trump.

Her messaging here is consistent with her messaging during her failed campaign, and consistent with the party’s messaging since around 2015 or so.

nightofmichelinstars,

Yes, I agree.

Tolstoshev,

Hillary was the only candidate unlikeable enough to lose to Trump. She should stick that in her pipe and smoke it.

Maeve,

She won the popular vote. It's sickening that the dnc has sunken so low.

Dukeofdummies,
Dukeofdummies avatar

She BARELY won the popular vote. Yes she should have won but her second term would've been this all over again 😑

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