Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff. Lemmy does not have a central administration that can make decisions like that, as each instance gets to decide if they federate with another instance or not.
There's no doubt going to be a banlist that gets shared amongst the biggest, most popular instances to get rid of the trolls.
Yeah, I see people advocating for that here, but the truth is that most people don’t want to deal with constant hate and trolls. People want to feel welcome in a community.
It turns out that people stop valuing things like "free speech" and "tolerance" when people try to use those values to force them to tolerate assholes.
What are you on about? Yeah obviously people still visit Reddit, it was stupid of you to ask in the first place. I thought this kind of idiocy would've stayed at Reddit.
Should we care that other people still use reddit?
Do you have to chose one or the other?
Why are people so hell bent to "take over" Reddit?
I found an alternative in Kbin and Lemmy that suits my needs and focuses on user experience and growing communities instead of growing the pockets of a handful of people.
I decide to not use Reddit anymore because the upper echelon can go fuck themselves.
Is it so weird to have a set of values and stop using a service/product, because they cross the boundaries one has set for themselves?
I have used Reddit for more than a decade and I haven't missed it all.
I am here because I enjoy it and not because I have a deeper desire for Reddit to evaporate out of nowhere.
"I think it's probably doomed. It'll never overtake reddit. But, it'll be a nice, quiet, alternative."
No one knows if it is doomed.
You have to start somewhere but you can't expect a platform that has seen an huge influx of users the past weeks to immediately operate on the scale of what Reddit does.
"I humbly apologize for my personal, speculative, opinion about the unknowable future. The downvotes have made me realize my math was wrong, my opinion is wrong, and I am wrong. My corrected opinion is that Lemmy will overtake Meta, Mastadon, Twitter, and Google (wtf is reddit!?), and every upvote will be worth $1000, making everyone rich! Or, we can have fun guessing, and wait and see how things go. I hope they go well!"
Who is claiming the above?
The fun thing is that Mastodon is in your list and before the fuckery with Twitter it didn't really have traction.
Why can't lemmy/Kbin be the same in a year from now?
The problem for Reddit, is that it made people actually look for alternatives. It is stupid for a competitor to make it's customers aware of the competition, but Reddit did exactly that.
Maybe it flops, maybe it stays "niche", maybe it explodes in popularity.
I think it is indeed random chance and just being at the right place at the right time.
I do not know how to solve this but the disagree = down vote thing has gone crazy. It seems to have become next to impossible to have a civil discussion online nowadays about an alternate opinions. It feels like everyone just wants to have their beliefs confirmed and never have their opinions questioned.
Or maybe up and downvotes are meaningless and karma has no value. I think it's a way of polling opinion on a topic. Lemmy is not Reddit. Users have no accumulated karma, downvotes don't hide comments and Post's default comment sort is by New.
I've had plenty of civil discussions online where I had an alternate opinion from the zeitgeist. On Reddit.
Generally speaking, if you aren't alt right scum, people are agreeable. If you believe people should be allowed to live how they want as long as it isn't hurting people, and nobody should be treated differently because of an inherent, born characteristic, people may not be happy with your opinion but they'll at least listen to you.
Honestly - I agreed with the first paragraph of your comment and was going to upvote, but all the edits made me reconsider; this is a place to share our thoughts, not worry about how many people up/down-ticked our comment.
I haven't logged into reddit since overwriting and deleting 12 years of content. So, I dunno man. I also haven't logged into Twitter since Musk took over.
I think that you're right, that reddit won't die. But I think that things like this, if not this exact thing, are going to be reasonable alternatives for many people.
I used the internet since 1998 and I remember when Reddit was this little known site with not a lot of users. It took years for Reddit to get where it is right now.cl Lemmy will likely take that trajectory or perhaps, be a second Reddit but with better discussions.
For Lemmy, if all goes well, will take years to have a significant amount of active users. Perhaps subreddits will slowly deteriorate, pushing more people toward Lemmy... No one knows what the future holds....
edit: I was part of this attempted migration, not the hate one. This isn't the first blackout for reddit being shitty.
It's the first one where average users were affected beyond the blackout, though. Other than the alt-righters nobody wanted there and weren't going to follow when they left. Patriots.win isn't a real community either, it's just constant Trump, Biden, and "democrats bad" content.
I suspect your downvotes are due to your ridiculous all or nothing speculation. No one can base the future on what's happening right now. Yet you're speculating it's already failed. What a shit take.
We don't know if the fediverse will succeed yet on a larger scale. Sometimes migration is instant, like with digg, sometimes it takes time, like with Facebook exodus which is continuing as i type this. Not to mention people weren't prepared for this migration so none of the tools to make it a replacement have been in place. But now people are actively working on building out the community. Maybe we'll know in a couple years if this is a successful endeavor on a Reddit type scale. But we don't know yet.
The strength of the fediverse is that there can be a right wing fediverse, a left wing fediverse, a centralist fediverse, yada yada yada. Entire networks of different, unconnected instances can exist. There will probably be instances in between that act as bridges or for gathering stats.
It will be interesting to watch, but at least people will be able to join the instances with communities they like. The problem of course is that echo chambers are more likely to evolve, but it's not like that isn't the case right now.
And once we get instance bridged with the dark web, it could allow content from countries like China, North Korea, Iran, and other places that don't want information getting out.
I think we're already seeing that a lot of the groups are going to be left-leaning, and since the system is decentralized by design, it's not going to be attractive to people that are right-wing and have authoritarian views. E.g., they won't be able to force other people to see what they say. (Remember the shitstorm of whining when TheDonald was removed from the front page so that 99% of people didn't see it anymore?)
It also helps that this wave of Lemmy’s new users are unified around some common centrist causes. Like not fucking up the user experience and not lying to its end users.
Votes big influx of users happened when far right wing subreddits got shut down. That created a pretty toxic place.
Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff.
It cannot be stressed enough how core this was to Voat's identity, and also how much it poisoned the entire platform. When even objecting to bigotry is against the ethos of the site then there's no way to build a healthy community, much less an inclusive one.
If that showed up on some Lemmy instance, you'd still have people saying "Defederation is bad! Marketplace of ideas! Just block them and move on! It's just one person!" :sigh:
On top of that, Voat got their main population-spike around the time reddit was cracking down on racist and extremist subreddits, so those are the type of users who shaped the culture of Voat. Lemmy, on the other hand, is getting their population spike from enthusiast users, I.E. the 10% of people most responsible for voting, commenting, posting, and just in general contributing to the site. Therefore, those are the people shaping the growing culture of Lemmy, doing so in a mostly positive way.
There is a phenomenon known as the "Eternal September". In the earliest internet, the vast majority of internet users were college student. Therefore, every September when freshmen started school, the online communities would get a massive influx of new users; These new users were often poorly behaved or disruptive to the culture of the communities, but over time they would acclimate to the local culture and become just more normal users, and things would settle back to normal. This was known as the "September Effect".
And then one year the internet started gaining small mainstream attention, and suddenly these chatrooms were being constantly flooded with new, ill-behaved users all the time; And because this "September" never ended, the culture of these communities ended up being washed away by the new people, and irreversibly changed forever; hence the "Eternal September".
The moral of the story, too many new people to a community too fast can overrun the existing cultural dynamic, and so either you need to be restrained in how quickly you let new people join so they can gradually assimilate, or you need the people joining to already share the same culture you desire.
Plus the kinds of people that migrated to Voat were... Not good people. IIRC, it was particularly the banning of FatPeopleHate that got many to move to Voat. The kind of people who'd quit a website because they said to stop harassing people for being fat are not good people. By comparison, this time, we're migrating because Reddit is being disrespectful towards frankly all their users, but also particularly mods and the visibility impaired.
Voat was also competing with reddit during a period of growth by appealing to the more toxic elements of the communities. There wasn’t enough of them to sustain an entire service and remain solvent, and they didn’t bring anything new to the experience. It was just a reddit clone.
The big difference now is that reddit corp has decided to alienate a severe chunk of their userbase.
I also suspect there were a lot of people who wanted to be part of certain communities, but weren’t thrilled with the reddit format. There just wasn’t anything else.
Those users are now open to alternatives like Lemmy, or Discord or another federated service. Reminds me of IRC in the 90s. If you got bored of efnet, connect to another network.
No, because Lemmy is not a platform, its a software that can be run on a server, and that server running the code is called an instance. The instance is where the platform is. An instance can communicate with other instances, which is called federation. Instances that are deemed problematic by another instance owner can become "defederated" meaning communication is cut off. One well known instance being defederated is lemmygrad.ml, which is an instance that promotes authoritarian-left political views. Another instance is exploding-heads.com (don't know if I spelt it correctly, I don't care), which has far-right content.
TLDR: Lemmy is not a singular platform, but an interconnected network of servers (instances). Lemmy will not "die" anytime soon, but certain instances can die.
This is the most confusing thing as a new user, and honestly might prove to be a real barrier to gaining additional users: Lemmy is confusing.
Reddit was simple: reddit is reddit, and then you have subcommunities in reddit, and that's it. But Lemmy/Fediverse/kbin/mastodon/beehive/whatever term is being used, it gets really confusing in what the service im actually on even is or how it relates to these other services. Like, I'm currently talking through kbin.social/, but I don't even know fully where I am or how kbin relates to all these other things exactly. Is Kbin just some sort of chat container for using lemmy instances, is it a lemmy instance itself, is it a specific group of instances, etc, I don't clearly know.
Kbin is like Reddit if Reddit also showed Tumblr and Digg posts.
So, like, you know how people would take screenshots of Twitter and post them on Reddit? That's pretty much what kbin is doing, except it's just linking directly to Twitter without the screenshot part, in this example.
Trump Traitor supporting subs have already been called out and others urged to defederize with them (is that the right phrasing? I’m still new to this).
For that reason alone, I feel like Lemmy will-at the very least–last longer than Voat as a viable reddit alternative.
Voat was a replica of Reddit in design. One centralized server. We would have ended up in the same crappy place even if that were a success because at some point they would have wanted to monetize it also.
You have to do some reading and learn about the technology behind Lemmy and federation to understand.
This is just the start of Reddit’s board going for the big money. It’s at odds with a volunteer modded site and volunteer created content. Mods aren’t going to be happy to do unpaid work just so the CEO can get rich. This API stuff is just the first exposure of this conflict. As more mods wonder why they are doing this for free just so what’s his name gets rich, more will abandon Reddit and come to Lemmy.
People are talking about voat and the alt/far right. Just want all you commie pussies to know, you're all wrong about everything and reddit became a dumpster fire, not because some people like to say kike and question the vaccine, but because you would be banned for wrong think. ALL OF YOU are the problem and everywhere you go, corporatism will follow because youre spineless and always run to moderators to fix your problems. And what happens when you do that? Reddit becomes a twat nest. And what are commie twats good at? Nothing but stabbing each other in the back for money.
Lemmy is not a "free speech" platform, unlike Voat. It can be moderated. Offending instances in the Fediverse can be blocked and all that stuff. As long as the moderators do their job, they can filter everything they want to filter, just like Reddit.
The more interesting question with Lemmy is if the federation will actual have any advantage in the long run, as cutting other instances off is the easiest way to moderate them. Which than in turn means the users have to hop between server, which is annoying and will in turn will lead to more centralization again.
For the time being I see Lemmy not as "The Solution™", but more as a "not-Reddit". It can and will run into all the problems as ever other Web forum will.
For more explanation regarding the problem with free speech platforms, I’ll point to Mike Masnick’s Twitter speedrun he offered to Elon Musk ( on Techdirt ) which is a funny and useful explantion of why free speech quickly breaks down.
When the US federal government was talking about free speech platforms (largely because hate speech some officials agreed with was getting censored on Twitter), I had proposed that the US government could sponsor a free-speech platform just to remind us what happens when a platform goes unmoderated, and any time they want to take chunks out of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, we could look at that and decide yes, indeed, let’s not force everything else to turn into that nightmare.
Well for one Lemmy is open source and federated. It's not one site, so even if the developers get tired of fooling with it, the servers don't depend on them and other people could take over development without express permission from the original developers.
Unlike that exodus, the Lemmigration isn’t for censorship and freedom of speech issues (inevitably drawing in the most toxic, bigoted and hateful section of Reddit to voat); it’s because of reduced accessibility and usability, alongside the visible contempt that Reddit’s administration has for their users (free content providers) and moderators (free content curators).
This means the people fleeing Reddit’s shores aren’t doing so because they want to recreate fatpeoplehate elsewhere; it’s because Reddit won’t let blind people moderate their own communities.
it’s because of reduced accessibility and usability,
I’m copying from my old comment:
What this is really about and people are just starting to realize is: the interests of the shareholders and CEO who want to get rich is not compatible with volunteer content and a volunteer modded site. People aren’t eager to do unpaid work just so the CEO can get rich. This API stuff is just exposing it.
Voat was an unconditional "free speech" platform that wanted to be an alternative to reddit a few years ago. I think it took about a week until they had to ban the first communities on their site. The_Donald, QAnon and Gamergate was pretty big over there at first and it gradually turned into a neo Nazi platform. It was easily one of the worst sites around when it died.
Voat originally emerged in 2015 during the height of the Ellen Pao scandal that swept Reddit, and quickly garnered some Reddit refugees, particularly those from /r/fatpeoplehate, a subreddit dedicated to hating on the obese.
It almost died that year for three key reasons:
Hosting morally repugnant legal grey-area content which was previously purged from Reddit, such as creepshots and jailbait. This not only drove users away but also made advertisers, payment processors and other stakeholders drop the site very quickly. /r/shitredditsays were a key player in getting companies like PayPal and Stripe to blacklist them.
Server instability. Crashes were frequent and the site went through significant downtime because it had received the Reddit hug of death.
The moment Ellen Pao was forced to resign and Steve Huffman was sworn in as CEO, everybody flocked back to Reddit thinking the day had been saved.
Voat soon became a vessel for Reddit's undesirable communities that Spez had purged. The moment he banned subreddits like /r/n*****, /r/c***town and other subreddits dedicated to glorifying racial hatred, they flocked to Voat and turned it into a white supremacist hellhole. Another thing that spurred the change was Stormfront (a white supremacist/neo-nazi forum) being cut off by their hosting provider.
What ultimately killed the site was COVID-19. A major investor in the site pulled out during the pandemic and after months of failing to secure funding, the owner just gave up and closed the site down on Christmas Day, 2020.
I can attest to this. I went to Voat briefly, shit was wild.
As a site it had merit but unfortunately it ended up scooping up a good number of the forced exiles from Reddit and not nearly as many normal users. Content had a big skew.
The worst part about Voat is that every single rational discussion was derailed by people throwing around slurs everywhere.
It's like the site operated on an alternative to Godwin's Law, but instead of comparisons to Nazis and Adolf Hitler, the probability of a discussion descending into a shit-slinging contest of racist or antisemitic slurs approaches 100% instead.
@Clbull That place is still around just so you know. They rebranded to talk.lol. But if you type voat.xyz it will still work. Gotta stay updated on the info my dude.
After trying Voat and Rukkus a while back, Lemmy seems very different in a good way. Those other efforts felt like libertarian tech bro attempts that imploded under the weight of their own dumbness.
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