Fleeing from police while holding a firearm is not a normal everyday situation that a citizen or an officer finds themselves in, nor should it be treated as one. Unfortunately, a consequence of being human is that elevated stress levels can lead to less than ideal outcomes in the heat of the moment. The law regarding situations like this accounts for this reality and would easily favor the officer.
A suspect fleeing while holding a firearm makes the officer’s fear for his own safety reasonable. It may have been best if he had noticed the firearm that was dropped, but I don’t know enough to say whether he knew about the suspect’s second firearm and was instructing him to drop both. I find it unlikely, and believe that I would have acted in a similar fashion had I seen a suspect that I’d just seen with a gun digging around in his waistband (for another).
At first glance, the officer appears to have acted with vigilance and to the best of his ability in a dangerous and high-intensity predicament, but his history makes that questionable. Ultimately, this outcome was the fault of the suspect for running away from a police officer while carrying a gun in the first place. Safe, sane people don’t do that, and it immediately creates a dangerous and hairy situation for everyone involved. It’s a line beyond which there are inherently less guarantees for the suspect, as the officer’s legally permitted option to open fire relies entirely on the reasonable perception of imminent danger.
We have stricter rules of engagement for the Army when deployed, “Do not fire unless fired upon” also in many circumstances if someone throws down their weapon you must cease fire.
We have stricter rules of engagement for the Army when deployed, “Do not fire unless fired upon”
Not only is this a fallacy of false equivalence, but it’s also straight up false. This is only one of many rules of engagement that are applied contextually, such as during a reconnaissance operation where stealth is necessary, or a peacekeeping mission where hostile combatants aren’t necessarily expected. It is also not usually the role of a peacekeeper to chase down criminals to enforce another country’s laws. Obvious exceptions to this rule apply in the same way that they apply to law enforcement to allow them to protect themselves during times when they reasonably believe that a gun-toting individual is an immediate and real threat to them. The same logic usually also applies to ordinary civilians acting in self-defense.
also in many circumstances if someone throws down their weapon you must cease fire.
Friendly fire. The reason I know so much about law enforcement methodology isn’t because I like them. I just genuinely believe that the community is wrong to chastise in this instance.
As an outsider it seems like America is a country full of people running around with guns and shooting each other. How does anyone there manage to relax?
Eh, there’s pretty bad police violence globally, if we ignore authoritarian countries or poor countries, there’s a fair amount of police violence from the other country that jerks itself off in being a free equal liberal democracy, France.
When I was in France I did see the police being heavy-handed on a few occasions (by UK standards anyway) but there was no routine gun violence and certainly no 18 year olds running around with pistols. The US is unique among developed countries.
It’s funny how when cops do something good, nobody knows or gives a shit, but when a cop shoots someone, everyone starts going crazy and comment “ACAB” everywhere.
Them doing something good is supposed to be the status qo.
There are plenty of tough jobs that require more praise where not doing a good job doesnt equal killing people.
Now i don’t align with acab, i know that its statistically not true, but rotten apples will spoil the basket and i haven’t seen a law enforcement that looked trustworthy and helpful in a long time.
Well of course you haven’t seen law enforcement being helpful, between “Police shot an armed bank robber and everyone else is unharmed” and “Police shot an unarmed teenager”, what do you think will get more public attention? It’s definitely not “Police helped an old woman crossed the street”, nobody gives a fuck about that, I’ve run into both good and bad cops and even I don’t care.
And how does it justify saying “All cops are bastards”? What makes you think ALL cops are bad? Every single one? Or maybe there are two sides of a coin and you just straight up refuse to accept the fact that the other side exists? Tell me, if you hate cops that much, would you call them if your children get kidnap? And what would happen to society if the police or any group that enforce the law is no more?
Do good cops out the bad ones? Nope. They’ll just let them do their corrupt bullshit making them complicit in the harm they do. Do we need cops? Yes. Do we need cops murdering civilians without serious consequence?
How about you show me the number of people killed by police and the number of people helped by police in a year? Also, based on you “logic”, cops aren’t supposed to do anything good, they have to kill people constantly in order to be cops, if a cop doesn’t do any of that, they are not a cop? And since you didn’t answer my questions. Imma ask them again: “And how does it justify saying “All cops are bastards”? What makes you think ALL cops are bad? Every single one? Or maybe there are two sides of a coin and you just straight up refuse to accept the fact that the other side exists? Tell me, if you hate cops that much, would you call them if your children get kidnap? And what would happen to society if the police or any group that enforce the law is no more?” Oh and an extra one: If ALL cops are bad, every single one of them, how come there aren’t riots or resistance EVERYWHERE?
That’s kinda like complaining about how nobody talks about how airlines keep planes flying and landing successfully, how the media only focuses on planes crashing and accidents. “Sure, this one airline covered up poor maintenance practices leading to deaths, but what about all the passengers airlines help everyday?”
Imagine airlines get to investigate themselves instead of the FAA and how it would go over when they find they did nothing wrong every time.
I don’t know man, I’m all for police oversight, but this isn’t a great example. This dude is running around a neighbourhood with a gun. Who says he doesn’t go into one of those houses and some innocent person gets hurt.
The cop yelled at him to drop the gun and stop running, he didn’t.
The part of them trying to cover it up after is shitty, but the action itself I can’t really take the criminal’s side. Again, image that’s my neighbour with my kids playing in the area, I don’t want some lunatic running around with a gun.
I realise what sub I’m in, and this isn’t a popular opinion and that’s fine. We need police reform, but this isn’t a good example.
When people jump on everything with the same fervor it weakens your case because people start tuning you out.
The media did a great job brainwashing everyone, most of the time they only show cops doing something bad, when the police do something, they just ignore it, even if they do cover it, the majority of people just don’t give a fuck. I’ve run into both bad cops and good cops, not every cop is the same, but people straight up refuse to acknowledge that. They don’t know that if all cops are actually bad, people would riot and fight back everywhere instead of what we have now.
They chased a traffic stop. This wasn’t some crazed murderer on the run. And then the guy tried to comply with the order. He tried to drop his gun. But the officer shot him when he tried to.
The officer has also been involved in 4 other shootings.
So much for “most officers never even pull their gun…”
“Coleman was implicated in court testimony in 2022 for participating in the Vallejo police badge bending scandal, where officers bent the tips of their badges to mark fatal shootings. Coleman testified his badge was bent against his will, but a department superior testified that he was more involved than he said and may have even helped spread the practice to other officers.”
You make some good points in general, but Coleman seems to be everything a cop should not be…
Doesn’ matter, unless you have a reasonable belief that they will use that weapon unlawfully simply possessing it is nothing but an extra charge and you cannot shoot a fleeing suspect unless you have ras to believe that they are dangerous and that suspicion cannot be generalized and inarticulate.
So much this. If we aren’t going to restrict possession of firearms in any way then we can’t use that as a basis for intent. Just replace, “had a gun”, with literally any other constitutionally protected right and this argument falls flat on its face.
“He was using words, we will never know if he was about to run into a theater and yell ‘fire’…”
This is an interesting ethical dilemma which I don’t know if there’s a clear cut answer. It’s a variation of the trolley problem (sort of). I think it depends a lot on the risk assessment being made. I don’t know the details of this particular case, but I can think of plenty of examples where a potential future danger should be limited by direct action. I’m happy to provide examples if you’re interested in exploring this thought further. I don’t know that I have a simple yes/no answer to this dilemma (also why I never became a cop).
I dunno. Brandishing is a misdemeanor in CA and it doesn’t sound like there was any probable cause to believe that the guy posed a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others.
Seems like shooting someone in the back as they run away while discarding their weapon is questionable at best.
Additionally, someone is innocent until proven guilty and that’s not the cops job. The cop shot someone not guilty and now people are speculating about the crimes that person could have done to justify it
Did you watch the video? He’s dropping the guns. He drops one in the driveway right in front of the camera. Then he’s in the process of dropping the second when the police officer shoots him.
You cannot give people the right to bear arms and then shoot them for complying with police orders.
Lol don’t get facetious with me. You and I both know you don’t run from the cops, regardless of your feelings about them. If you’re detained, for instance, by a cop with a gun, then you’re not free to go. You know this, you’re just being an asshole.
Ah yes. Now citizens have to follow the unwritten rules and unsaid commands as well. Law abiding citizens are psychic, and famously calm under pressure.
Guns are the problem. Take away the guns in this situation neither party is going to die.
I get that American cops have a very bad rep but I can’t imagine having to work each day wondering if today is the day you’re going to get killed on the job. It’s no wonder they get trigger happy. Kill or be killed etc.
Wasn’t it just last week some cop in NSW gunned someone down for looking at him crossways?
Edit: my bad, it was 2 years ago that 4 cops went on a hunt and shot a guy in his own yard for wearing a hoodie. 2 days before Christmas. www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-19/…/103600190
Thank you, I hadn’t heard this story as it’s not from my state and it shows that the institute of policing is flawed and filled without gun happy scared little monkeys in every country.
yea the article should have been titled armed 18 year old too but you know they probably believe that ends justify the means. in any case seems like this police was one of them trigger happy ones who probably wont feel a drop of remorse over this.
You can’t go by what if. I’m so tired of people defending their stance because of whataboutism. It’s a shitty argument. Dude was literally running for his life. I will be honest, I don’t know the full extent of the situation yet, but I do agree with you that people shouldn’t just jump on the bandwagon just because a cop shot someone. But just looking at the video, I don’t see why this kid was shot. Did the kid shoot at the officer? Did the kid threaten the officer’s life? Those are the questions I don’t know.
Should I fear for my life just because I am carrying a gun? I live in an open carry state. I don’t carry anymore, but I see plenty of people walking around with a weapon. my first thought isn’t that the person is a criminal just because they carry and I really don’t have much thought about it at all.
My views on this are still neutral until I know more information, but please don’t go on about whataboutism.
The guy that got shot was part of a car chase that switched to a foot chase after the cars tire blew out. The guy didn’t just walk down the road with a gun. In the video you can also see the guy making a strange movement with the gun just before the cop shot. It most likely was to throw the gun away but the cop couldn’t have known that. And given the overall circumstances shooting at this point seems reasonable.
But the cop is still a piece of shit that shouldn’t have been a cop by this point anymore. He is a cop since 2018 and has been involved in now 5 shootings (far higher than the average). And he was part of the badge bending scandal. Where cops bent the tips of their badge to mark fatal shootings. Any cop who does that, shouldn’t be a cop.
Luckily the guy survived, unfortunately the cop will stay a cop.
How come all the pro-gun fuckstains that claim “guns keep police honest” are never in these threads saying “the kid should have opened fire on the cop” or “people in nearby houses should have threatened the cop with a gun”?
But nope, they just stick to threads about gun control and peddle the same rhetoric that crystal gripping hippies have used for decades. “My cancer-preventing crystals didn’t prevent your cancer? Damn, imagine how much cancer you would have had without the crystals. You basically owe me your life. You better buy more.”
If it makes it any better I wish people wouldve gunned down the cop, but im also a mildly insane socialst redneck. But hey some of us do want to burn down the local police station, we are just few and far between.
I don’t care if you burn down police stations, figuratively or literally. I’m just sick to fucking death of pro-gun people seeking out vulnerable minorities and convincing them that buying a gun is anything other than a donation to the Republican party.
Dude I was responding to the point of “Why dont pro-gun people advocate shooting cops” not some point about how buying firearms is unethical. As for that point, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Shopping at Walmart probably contributes just as much if not more to the republicans than buying a 1911 or an AR-15. Dont know if ya noticed but we’ve got a bit of a Nazi problem again, and frankly even if we keep the republicans out of office they will probably cause problems for minorities.
As for the claim that folks like myself are preying on minorities, I am of the general opinion that adults have the ability to tell if they think they may need a firearm or not. One of my best friends is trans and a tad bit too suicidal to trust himself with one, one of my other friends has at least two shotguns in his closet. I have no guns cause Ronald Reagan started the trend of shitty guns laws here in California and I am also a broke motherfucker.
Dont know if ya noticed but we’ve got a bit of a Nazi problem again, and frankly even if we keep the republicans out of office they will probably cause problems for minorities.
Damn, so the Nazi problem must be even worse in places like Australia and the UK who have “banned guns” right? Oh look at that. It isn’t. Because guns don’t prevent Nazis.
But goddamn, do those gun laws ever help Nazis. I don’t know how many Nazis there are with AR-15s in England, but if I was betting on something that fucked, my money would be on “zero”. Meanwhile in America there must be what… at least a million?
So thanks for that. Thanks for ensuring that the “problems” they cause minorities aren’t just slurs and fists, but being executed in the street by a “responsible gun owner”.
One of my best friends is trans and a tad bit too suicidal to trust himself with one
What a cool situation the pro-gun community has put them in. If they’re murdered by a far-right fuckstain with a legal gun, the pro-gun community will victim blame them because they didn’t have a gun. If they buy a gun and kill themselves with it, they’ll be swept under the rug because suicides don’t count for the pro-gun crowd.
my other friends has at least two shotguns in his closet
Then your friend should secure their firearms properly.
What do you think would happen to a civilian in a Stand Your Ground state did this ?
If someone with a gun broke into their home, and the home owner chased them out of the house, pursued them, and then shot them in the back without an immediate threat to their life, they would most certainly be charged with murder.
It’s sad how people like you think people “behaving like this” deserve to die.
It’s sad how you think anybody who even appears to pose a threat to a police officer is forfeiting their life by not immediately dropping flat on the ground with their hands above their heads.
The kid dropped his gun, you can see and hear it, it landed in the driveway on the lower left of the screen.
The officer had NO REASON to fire at that point, when the kid had his back turned and was clearly just trying to make it out of there alive. Fight or flight response meant he definitely wasn’t thinking clearly but he was also in no way a threat to anybody.
“play stupid games win stupid prizes” isn’t a philosophical basis for a justice system. Even Hammurabi moved us beyond that shit. Your worldview is meme based. It’s pretty sad.
I mean this is America, that gun could be used for literally anything and someone would say “hey you too? I always use my gun to fix squeaky door hinges!”
What do you think rightwing chuds that demand to bring assault rifles into ice cream shops are going to use their 30 round 5.56mm ar-15 with 90 rounds of ammunition for?
If rightwing libertarian free speech warriors had even the tiniest scrap of integrity to their beliefs they would clearly be livid with anger about a random person possessing a firearm being deemed a lethal threat by the unelected government officials and then arbitrarily executed on the spot.
You would think these brave defenders of American culture would immediately recognize the problem with making it ok for an unelected government official to shoot someone else on sight for possessing a firearm, and face almost zero percent chance of consequences for being wildly incompetent and racist?
Of course, this is about who rightwing culture teaches you to be afraid of and who rightwing culture absolves of all responsibility for threatening and committing lethal violence in our communities.
“I thought you were going to try and pull that gun on me,” Coleman said.
But it’s not like he has a history of this shit, oh wait
“Coleman was implicated in court testimony in 2022 for participating in the Vallejo police badge bending scandal, where officers bent the tips of their badges to mark fatal shootings. Coleman testified his badge was bent against his will, but a department superior testified that he was more involved than he said and may have even helped spread the practice to other officers.”
Similarly people also underestimate the number of people who commit domestic violence against their partners, the numbers are obviously difficult to get a real handle on (you are asking people to reveal things they might not want to reveal, even if they are the victim) but the number is probably somewhere around 30% of cops commit domestic abuse on their spouses and family.
He was running away with a gun. The cop literally said “drop the gun, drop the gun, drop the gun or I’ll shoot you.”
It’s sad how people like you think people should be allowed to behave like this without getting shot.
That cop did his duty and I support him wholeheartedly. Most of the people on these forums need a reality check, because whatever is upvoted is not always correct.
He did drop his gun. You can see it in the video, he yeeted that fuckin thing. There is NO REASON to shoot someone in the back, because if their back is towards you, they are not a threat to you. The only people who shoot other people in the back are fucking cowards, you fucking coward.
Yeah, the only thing people like you understand are ad hominem attacks because you can’t form a coherent thought, let alone a coherent argument. Thankfully your influence will not outlive you.
Perhaps one day, you will realise in life that some people don’t care enough to argue or debate with you. Your feverish comments remind me of a crazed man screaming and foaming at the mouth thinking he’s making an excellent point.
It’s weird how few “gangbangers” ever wind up being caught, pursued, litigated against and how many of them cops seem to kill or claim they’ve killed before any substantial evidence is ever obtained.
It’s almost like they’re justifying their increased budgets and surveillance even though crime has been on a steady decline (covid spike notwithstanding) for the last 50 years.
Those same gangbangers exist in countries that don’t have the same level of police shootings, and they haven’t overrun the government (even though bad guys don’t listen to gun laws and can buy them anywhere, as police tell me, so that can’t be the case)
Can you give me an example where this is true. There’s plenty of counties that only have a sheriff’s department with minimal police presence and they aren’t overrun with gangs.
You’re telling me the police statement lied??? I am SHOCKED. yeah right.
Police statement are always false, always. Never believe them. That’s why I didn’t buy it a few days ago when everyone on Lemmy was saying the kid deserved it
I will say that at least in this case the kid had guns. Usually they don’t even have that and get murdered. This is more justified than usual cop involved shootings, but still not justified. The fact that a lot of the others get away with it tell me this guy probably will too.
Well, he dropped one of the guns. The other didn’t leave his hand until shot, per the video. So for whatever reason he hadn’t let go of the second gun. He didn’t manage to do anything vaguely looking like aiming the gun, but he certainly hadn’t dropped the second gun at the point he got shot.
Think this is a tough one to use for either side of the argument. On the one hand, he didn’t quite manage to raise the gun or face the officer. On the other hand he might have been about to find some cover and return fire too quickly for the officer to react, since the gun was in hand, depending on what was in front of them.
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