OC Fediverse won't replace Reddit as long as Lemmy is the main platform being promoted

Think about things from the point of view of someone who has never used Reddit or the fediverse, but you've heard about them both from recent news articles and want to see what they are about.

Reddit:- You Google Reddit and your first result is Reddit.com. You click the link and are presented with the front page. You from scroll from a few hours and end up signing up and staying.

Lemmy:- You Google Lemmy and your first result is a wiki article for Lemmy Kilmister... Your second result might be join-lemmy.org, which you're smart enough to realise it's probably more likely what the news is about.

You click join-lemmy.org and are presented with a page of information about the fediverse, links to set up a server and pictures of code...

There is very little chance you're going to investigate further.

If we want the fediverse to replace Reddit then either
A) Lemmy needs to improve its initial impression and Search engine optimization
B) We should be promoting a different platform with a better initial first impression.

I'd recommend kbin personally as it gives the same sort of experience as Reddit from the initial interaction.

abff08f4813c,
abff08f4813c avatar

kbin is newer and less polished. But yeah I personally recommend kbin over lemmy for exactly the reasons you posted.

metaStatic,

my first non-reddit hit is kbin.pub which is probably worse than join-lemmy

abff08f4813c,
abff08f4813c avatar

Maybe kbin.pub should have a banner at top like "Got here by mistake? Maybe you just want to join an instance? Try ..." with .. being picked at random on each page load. Or we could have a featured kbin instance of the month or something...

Nahaelem,

Assuming we coalesce around Kbin, 5-6 years down the road when Kbin is a lot more polished and has a significant user-base,h ow do we prevent a repeat of Reddit?

It’s inherent in human nature to coalesce, to form a community, which ultimately creates a centralized hub that is ripe for control by a few people.

abff08f4813c,
abff08f4813c avatar

Federation already solves this, mostly. If kbin.social disappeared, other places like kbin.cafe and kbin.lol would have copies of the magazines, so content wouldn't be lost. And the community could regroup under a new magazine.

The only issue is magazine portability - right now there doesn't seem to be a way to annoint an instance to be the new owner of a magazine that's hosted by the kbin.social instance. But maybe that technical problem will be solved in within the next five years.

Sigmatics,

That is one of the most important conceptual problems with the fediverse right now imho.

tbird83ii,

Also, the Kbin dev expressly stated he isn't ready for a massive migration, and the current influx has caused him no end of stress. We want to keep him around and not drive him insane.

BedSharkPal,

I would argue we also don't want to be in a place where we rely on any one individual. Thankfully @ernest seems to understand that as well.

ernest,
ernest avatar

I appreciate the concern, and it seems to me that kbin is no longer just one person ;) Currently, kbin is a team of wonderful people who handle development work, devops, project management, and more. Additionally, Piotr helps me with administering kbin.social. There will be significant changes here soon, things are happening quickly. But to be honest, I wasn't fully prepared for such substantial growth, and it will probably take some time before everything stabilizes. But... this is just the beginning ;) What's important is that the snowball starts rolling, regardless of whether kbin, Lemmy, or Mastodon gains the most users. We all win in this situation.

JungleGeorge24,
@JungleGeorge24@mastodon.online avatar
mariobarisa,

@ernest we must strive into making activity pub the new standard for social media

Steampunk,
Steampunk avatar

Love you, Ernest 💕

hovster9,
hovster9 avatar

Don't become like those overlords. Stay down to Earth with the rest of humanity.

midas,

Wishing you the best of luck, hoping Kbin succeeds! It has everything to be a great platform for the long run.

ferallettuce,

@ernest

@Fizzee @abff08f4813c @tbird83ii @BedSharkPal

Given that Kbin has more active users in the past month than any lemmy instance, I’m sure it’s been wild for you considering this was a side project.

ernest,
ernest avatar

Yeah, the pace is still crazy, but it's a completely different mental comfort when you're aware that you're not alone ;)

Rayspekt,

And my axe!

HappySerf,
HappySerf avatar

Reddit really is here

ElPussyKangaroo,

This is so frickin wholesome 😭

Doggo,
Doggo avatar

Let me know if you need some more coffee!

;)

To everyone who may wish to, if you want to support ernest see below link.
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kbin

Varwin,

Java Dev here if there’s anything I can contribute with a couple hours a week!

tal,
tal avatar

Kbin is PHP/Symfony, but people are writing tools in various languages, not to mention clients. I haven't looked at the client repositories, but I assume that some, if not all, of the codebases for them are Java.

metaStatic,

Java Dev

My condolences

joost,

r/ProgrammerHumor… Oh oops, old habit.

tjhart85,
tjhart85 avatar

We have an m/ProgrammerHumor !

metaStatic,

hashtags work in the fediverse

Pamasich,
Pamasich avatar

kbin is written in PHP, but if you want to contribute, it's opensource on codeberg.

DracolaAdil,
DracolaAdil avatar

Yup, we are all with you dude!

BEEKAYRANDEE,

The thing that helps Kbin the most is that it is, by far, the easiest to understand. Googling "Lemmy fediverse" gives a bunch of various links to other Lemmy instances, which are presented in a way as if they are separated from one another. Kbin appears as one site, one location for content aggregation. Although that "goes against the idea" of decentralization, most users are currently looking for their "one home to replace their old one home". The more users flock to one area and learn how it works, the more things will begin to take their proper shape, so to speak.

rideranton,
rideranton avatar

A feature we'll definitely want to have with kbin in the future is the ability to migrate accounts to other instances. That would mean that even though we're centralizing on kbin.social right now, people could move to other instances and spread the load across the fediverse without losing their history

BEEKAYRANDEE,

I'm still learning the ins and outs of this place and the others, but part of me thought that was the feature of being federated. User accounts could seamlessly transfer from one instance to another.

Looking further into it, it looks like that feature exists for content, but not so much for accounts.

Kaldo,
Kaldo avatar

I think it exists in Mastodon, it just hasn't been worked on yet for Kbin / lemmy.

tal,
tal avatar

You can access content from an account anywhere, but not migrate the account.

PlagueShip,

Kbin doesn't have the ability to sort comments by top. To me, that is the #1 most important feature, and not having it when it's easy to do shows some real ignorance. The reason I come to these sites is to see the best comments on news of the day.

artillect,
artillect avatar

Rome wasn't built in a day

Mozami,
Mozami avatar

Ignorance? Seriously?

patchw3rk,
patchw3rk avatar

@BestOf might be of interest. The community sifts through the junk to share the most insightful comments.

1chemistdown,
1chemistdown avatar

There is a bar at the top of the feed where you can switch how your feed is shown.

Entropywins,
Entropywins avatar

That's pretty lame friend

Calcharger,
Calcharger avatar

@plagueship Just so you know, the main dev @ernest replied to your concern

MrGG,

Well good news, friend! Here is the kbin source code. Since it's so easy to do I look forward to seeing your pull request sometime today 😀

New_account,

Weird response. The vast majority of people switching over here are not programmers and don’t know how to update the source code to implement a new feature. The other guy never said it would be easy, but rather, that the feature is a critical one that’s missing.

tjhart85,
tjhart85 avatar

New_Account:
The other guy never said it would be easy

Plague_Ship:
and not having it when it's easy to do shows some real ignorance

So ... not only did they say that it was easy, they also insulted Ernest because the ALPHA software wasn't yet up to the lofty standards of Plague_Ship. I have to assume that when Ernest had a couple hundred people in here max, the issue just never came up. It's not ignorance, it's priorities.

holycrapwtfatheism,

To each their own but sometimes it's nice to just scroll through comments and see the varied replies instead of just fed the top/earliest on some posts. Imo it increases user engagement.

TelKaivokalma,
TelKaivokalma avatar

"..shows some real ignorance"?

Brother, acting like a douche to people who are working and paying for you to be here shows some real arrogance. You're not a customer here. There's no ad revenue, no data collection, no money. If you want it so bad then do it yourself. Beauty of the fediverse is you can go make your own instance that does what you want it to do.

olrik,
olrik avatar

"No money" well, there can be some if you donate to https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kbin as per the About page at the bottom of the page.

awsamation,
awsamation avatar

Even with the donations I doubt there's that much of a profit to being made. Servers are expensive, and there's no way that servers are the only overhead that ernest is dealing with.

Can_you_change_your_username,

His own knowledge, skills, abilities, and time are almost certainly worth more than he is receiving in donations. Dudes a skilled programmer/developer and is putting serious work into this. If he was putting his time and effort into freelance work instead he'd be building a heck of a nest egg.

EntasaurusWrecked,

@PlagueShip

@Fizzee @abff08f4813c
It’s new, it takes time… Reddit wasn’t Reddit at first, either

Stern,
Stern avatar

reddit used to not have comments or even subreddits (Among the first ones were r/programming and r/NSFW, fwiw).

Briguy24,

12 years ago reddit would crash all the time. To make it worse they always told me I was the one who broke reddit personally by putting a message on my screen. My bad yall.

loobkoob,
loobkoob avatar

Yeah, I always thought it was a little unfair when it popped up telling me that "Briguy24 broke reddit!". But I never held it against you, don't worry :)

ernest,
ernest avatar

Top sorting is already available on the testnet. It will be further improved over time.
https://lab2.kbin.pub/

Crankpork,

Less polished, but the browsing experience is better and more customizable than any Lemmy instance I've been on so far.

bluGill,
bluGill avatar

I recommend kbin just because some of the people behind Lemmy are vocal far left wing. I want to support more moderates in the world.

Treedrake,
Treedrake avatar

While I'm quite left wing, I have huge problems with them (as well as the main dev) being authoritarian, genocide-defending tankies. That praise China, Russia and DPRK. It's maddening.

goryramsy,

And lemmy has a commie problem too.

sheepishly,
sheepishly avatar

I came to kbin hoping for exactly that, a moderate platform, and these upvote-downvote patterns are extremely concerning.

NotAPenguin,

This you?

AlternativeEmphasis,

You're being downvoted because people don't understand you're not talking about "far left" like some Trumper. You mean literal tankies, which absolutely yes some of the Lemmy Devs are as well as Lemmy.ml. It's also a reason I selected Kbin.

LordR,

What is your definition of moderates? As I see it a moderate in Europe is vastly different to a moderate in the USA.

I think it is hard to figure out what you understand as moderate without seeing knowing about what you political opinions are.

FlowVoid, (edited )

That’s like saying you don’t recommend Linux because you disagree with Linus Torvalds. Using Lemmy or Linux does not advance any particular political agenda. And for the record, I like kbin.

You know what does potentially advance a communist agenda? Buying a phone made in China. Which phones do you recommend?

livus,
livus avatar

Now you've got me wondering what Linus Torvalds thinks. The only opinion of his I know is that https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Linus-linux.ogg that used to do the rounds "Hello this is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux as Linux".

smellythief,

Then pick a server that’s not run by “the people behind Lemmy”. Solved.

Hondolor,
Hondolor avatar

agree. Part of why I liked reddit was that I could customize my feed to ignore political diatribe (left and right) and just read the feeds that interest me. Lemmy is so infested with leftists that it spills over into every part of their community

feduser934,

I haven’t had that experience on lemmy and have found a diversity of small communities, just like on Reddit. But I guess I don’t subscribe to any news communities, so maybe the monoculture you describe is present there.

fartsinger,

Well of course it is, do you want to emulate reddit or not?

hackitfast,

One is the instances is owned by people who praise Stalin. Lemmy.world is not. And the code is open source so Lemmy is not really owned by anyone. All you have to do is switch instances.

Gull,

The creator of Lemmy, dessalines, is a tankie, and is also the main admin of lemmy.ml.

hydro033,

It worries me that you get a bunch of downvotes for this. People are way too accepting of political biases if they're in the direction they prefer.

VectorSocks,

Because it implies that basic, milquetoast progressive values are "far left".

Mateng,
Mateng avatar

In my experience, lemmy.ml and feddit.de (for example) are in more left wing then milquetoast progressives. It's faszinating and refreshing, and I don't mind people speaking their minds. But I prefer moderate, too.

I would rather say that the average Redditor is milquetoast progressive. Heck, I start to really enjoy this phrase 😉.

LordR,

As my feed is populated by a lot of German threads it is worth to note that moderate depends a lot on the country you are from. Bernie Sanders would probably be considered part of the moderate left in most of Europe while he is considered to be far left in the USA.

Ferk, (edited )
Ferk avatar

It also depends about what specific topic we are talking about.

In many places in Europe, being a social democrat when it comes to economy (like Bernie) might be considered pretty moderate. But then certain attitudes about non-binary pronouns or supporting special considerations for specific groups of people, are seen closer to "far left".

You don't see the amount of virtue signaling in Europe that you see in USA media productions, for example.

The_Tribble_Juggler,
The_Tribble_Juggler avatar

I'm liberal, but I'm not at the "censor users criticizing the Chinese government because they're communist" level. I was also skeptical of what people were saying about the lemmy.ml admins (the original lemmy devs), but they're anything but miquetoast progressive.

That doesn't represent all of Lemmy though. I just wouldn't recommend joining .ml

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

No, no there are literally tankies. Lemmy.ml the ml means marxist-leninist and lemmygrad.ml is just straight up tankie CCP apologists

Crankpork,

What's left wing about simping for dictators? Just because they called their countries "communist" to keep people from realizing, they were both effectively totalitarian dictatorships, and that's about as right as it gets.

honorfaz,
honorfaz avatar

@Crankpork they're left wing dictators? The wings are about economic policies. Communism is an ultra far left economic system like pure laissez-faire capitalism is an ultra far right economic system. You can be authoritarian or libertarian in either group. Or you can have more moderate economic views and still also have more authoritarian enforcement or extreme libertarian/anarchic lack of enforcement

Aesthesiaphilia,

Communism almost inevitably leads to dictatorship though. History has proven this. Capitalism can at least coexist with democracy to a degree. For all practical purposes, communism and dictatorship are a package deal.

_thisdot,
@_thisdot@infosec.pub avatar

Not necessarily. Kerala is a state in India that democratically elected a communist government for the first time in history (in 1956). They’re currently the ruling party in the state.

My viewpoints are moderate. And I’m in a state governed by a far-left government in a country governed by a far-right government. Honestly, the best of both worlds! They both keep each other in check and everything is moderate!

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

I mean, that's exactly my point though. People seem to be knee jerk assuming that the "leftist" accusations against the .ml instances are standard issue right wing hyperbole against progressive liberals and that's not the case. It's just as much that progressives are complaining because we have no interest in associating with tankies.

BarbecueCowboy,

I think the only real way for anyone to get it is to experience it. I thought it was bullshit propaganda too and I also thought I was relatively far left before first arriving at the .ml domain and further lemmygrad. I am still kind of surprised that we have a community out there that large that seems to legitimately identify with the 'tankie' ideology.

It's a bit of a culture shock realizing that you might just be a progressive moderate.

cowvin,

That's actually really good thing. In the U.S. not wanting to kill trans people makes you a "far left" person according to right-wingers. real "far left" people are pretty nuts, man. The vast majority of us are moderates who are now labeled as "far left" in the U.S. political discourse.

_thisdot,
@_thisdot@infosec.pub avatar

I dunno mate. Does identifying with a side lay out your viewpoints on every issue? I live in a communist-ruled state in India and I know of communists who don’t agree with the trans ideology. Due to religion and stuff, we also have far-right people here that consider trans people as gods.

Bilbo, (edited )

You need to do a little research before you get up on your high horse. They’re literal, self proclaimed communists. Lemmy was made because Reddit wasn’t left enough. They enjoy censorship and deny basic human right violations, and parrot CCP propaganda. They’re tankies. That’s why the devs instance isn’t federated with many of the major ones.

This is partly why kbin exists.

Wtf. I accidentally deleted my comment two times. Lemmy mobile UI fail!

NewWorldOverHere,

Thought I was getting déjà vu while reading your comments lol. Glad you explained why I saw it so many times!

I agree with your foundational stance on using kbin vs. Lemmy due to the political beliefs (‘Tankies’) of those on Lemmy.

But, I’d never heard of them referred to as far left before. In my mind, Bernie is generally considered far left in the US (even though I wish he wasn’t).

I am glad that others provided their explanations of left vs. progressive because it helped me to better understand why you said left (instead of right).

Bilbo,

You need to do a little research before you get on your high horse. They’re literal communists. Lemmy was made because Reddit wasn’t left enough. They enjoy censorship and deny basic human right violations, and parrot CCP propaganda. They’re tankies. That’s why the devs instance isn’t federated with many of the major ones.

I’m not exaggerating. This is partly why kbin exists.

Bilbo,

You need to do a little research before you get on your high horse. They’re literal communists. Lemmy was made because Reddit wasn’t left enough. They enjoy censorship and deny basic human right violations, and parrot CCP propaganda.

I’m not exaggerating. This is partly why kbin exists.

Hondolor,
Hondolor avatar

This

Drusas,

Could we make an effort not to fill the fediverse with this?

metaStatic,

This

Kantiberl,
Kantiberl avatar

Oh don't even get me started on the downvote brigades from angry leftists around here. Don't you dare hold a moderate opinion around them, or they call you a nazi and tell you to go back to 4chan. You can read my post history. All I've ever expressed is the same sentiment expressed here, and I've been met with nothing but absolute vitriol.

BaldProphet,
BaldProphet avatar

Yeah, I'm with you. I'd say it's a serious problem that will drive potential users away.

SoupOfTheDay,

Because we saw what happens with Reddit. People come in claiming to be “moderate”, and very quickly shit like T_D starts popping up. Also center of the road politics in the US has had rights taken away from millions of people in just the past year, and it’s going to continue to erode them from more. I’m not telling you to change your political stance, but I am telling you that people see them as an attack because they have literally been attacked by “moderates”.

nanoobot, (edited )
nanoobot avatar

The defence against people pretending to be moderate is not to hit everyone who introduces themselves as a moderate in the face with a hammer.

!deleted125603,

deleted_by_author

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  • Zorque,

    "Moderate" doesn't necessarily mean centrist or unalienable, it's antithesis is extremist. Being moderate and supporting peoples rights to be who they are just means taking a more practical and slow approach.

    You need both moderate and more extreme views of progressivism, otherwise you get drowned in either. They support each other, they don't necessarily oppose each other.

    PM_me_your_vagina_thanks,

    What you call "moderate" is likely viewed very differently by other people, since I assume you're from the US, and US politics has become a far-right fucking shitstorm. The overton window has shifted so much over there that "moderates" are degenerate cunts to more reasonable people.

    snooggums,
    snooggums avatar

    Your post history shows you are solidly on the right end of the spectrum based on your expressed opinions while trying to justify yourself as moderate.

    Kantiberl,
    Kantiberl avatar

    How? Why would you resort to lying? I'm pro choice, I despise Trump, I'm pro gay and trans rights, I believe in UBI for everyone (as well as keeping the free market in place), pro legalization (of every drug), pretty anti gun but I still believe it's peoples right to own them, I think police should be completely reformed and prisons fundamentally changed to be places of rehabilitation. What opinion of mine shows I'm on the right end of the spectrum? Because I believe in nuance and civil discourse? That I think all humans deserve forgiveness and a chance to grow and become better? Please, do enlighten me.

    FaceDeer,
    FaceDeer avatar

    The forced distillation of every single position to being somewhere on this "left" to "right" spectrum is the single worst thing to happen to modern political discourse, IMO.

    I'm a fan of the "8 Views" test, which tries to position views along four different axes instead of just one. Four is still too few but it's way better than what we've got now.

    fenndev,

    You have the freedom of speech, not the freedom to be free from the consequences of that speech. I read your post history and couldn't really find a 'moderate' position, mostly far-right talking points and splitting hairs about semantics. If the shit that you're saying is indistinguishable from Nazi and fascist rhetoric, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that you may have to reexamine the people you caucus with.

    I also saw that you claimed downvotes and disagreements are an important part of online social interaction, and yet you're here complaining about "downvote brigades." I thought that was pretty funny.

    Kantiberl,
    Kantiberl avatar

    Pretty insidious of you to imply that what I have expressed here is far right, nazism, AND fascism. Do you have any examples where I haven't been moderate? This is what I meant by downvote brigades, it's not just the downvotes. It's the snakelike way in which people (such as you) are arguing with me that I'm disturbed by.

    It's not splitting hairs about semantics when I've been called a nazi (multiple times now) for espousing NOTHING in the realm of nazism, and have in fact only condemned it. That's a huge problem, and it's my current focus here.

    I'm against authoritarianism from any side and I'm also against the deceptive bullshit you're trying to pull.

    cacheson,
    cacheson avatar

    I think part of it is that leftists (myself included) don't like being lumped in with tankies. I didn't downvote though.

    The lead devs of lemmy are tankies, basically meaning authoritarian communists of the genocide-apologist variety. They also run the lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml instances.

    This is also why I signed up on kbin instead of on lemmy. The other lemmy instances are fine, but I don't want to contribute to the influence of the lemmy devs any more than necessary. Hopefully they try to pull something stupid and get forked off the project.

    gentleman,

    @cacheson This exactly. It’s why I didn’t join there and wound up here instead. Communism is a misnomer at this point - all that is left is the authoritarian/totalitarian/Putinistas. Tankies and Putinistas are the same to me. Trumpists are the same to me. The only time I’m associating with those people is across from them at their next US insurrection.

    @Fizzee @bluGill @hydro033

    exscape,
    exscape avatar

    Why would anyone downvote for that reason though? That reason is why I upvoted. I'm firmly left-wing but absolutely not far enough that I can support their BS views.

    cacheson,
    cacheson avatar

    It gets weird when we talk about this stuff on only one axis (left-right) rather than two (left-right/libertarian-authoritarian, though that's still a simplification). Specifically, I'm an anarchist, which means I'm part of the "far left". Anarchists, along with "ultra"-communists, are seen as being to the left of Lenin/Stalin-style communists. Saying that the problem with the lemmy devs is that they're "far left" implies that people like me are the same as tankies, and we kind of resent that.

    blightbow,
    blightbow avatar

    Most likely because American politics frequently pound the talking point of "far left politics" when talking about the political opposition (moderate left at best from an overseas PoV), to the point where American liberals have been conditioned to assume that they are being spoken down to when this type of language is in play. American leftists are also very anti-authoritarian on average and do not appreciate being lumped into the same category as tankies by simple virtue of people only discussing left versus right.

    JamesGray,

    What's the moderate position between "trans people should not be allowed to exist in society" and "trans rights are human rights"? You have to understand every time you or anyone else says some shit like this you're basically crying that people are taking a position instead of just watching the right wing try to ruin peoples lives.

    The supreme court literally ruled to allow businesses to discriminate against people based on sexuality yesterday.

    Anna,
    Anna avatar

    What rights do trans people not have?

    The Supreme Court ruled to give businesses the choice to turn down customers. I thought you guys were all about choice?

    Treedrake,
    Treedrake avatar

    I mean, you don't have to be a tankie that defends North Korea or the uighur genocides, to respect those values? Which is the main problem with Lemmy devs and main instances.

    JamesGray,

    You're gonna need to be a bit more specific than that, because "defends" often does a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to issues like that being discussed from a leftist perspective. Did they outright say North Korea is perfect or there was no human rights issues with the treatment of the Uighur people in China? Or did they say the situation in Korea is more complicated than is presented by the west because we've embargoed them for more than half a century at this point and point out how the Uighur genocides are not that different from what happens in ICE camps in the US to this day?

    Bad things happen all over the world, and I don't think China or DPRK are perfect by any measure of the word, but presenting them as the axis of evil and ourselves as the good guys is just silly. It's not that they're good, it's that we're cartoonishly evil too.

    Alleywurds, (edited )
    Alleywurds avatar

    Trans rights are human rights because trans rights are rights to bodily autonomy.

    If you think bodily autonomy is a human right, then you think trans rights are human rights.

    If you don't think bodily autonomy is a human right, then I guess have fun licking boots.

    Metaright,
    Metaright avatar

    The problem is that nobody (or at least very few people of actual influence) are legitimately saying that trans people shouldn't get to exist. I have yet to see any politician, for example, express such a belief.

    JamesGray,

    Michael Knowles called for the "eradication" of transgenderism at CPAC this year. Please shut up (E: corrected the wording he used, because he said "eradication" not just that it shouldn't exist)

    Metaright,
    Metaright avatar

    Was he talking about the people themselves, or the phenomenon of being transgender? That is a very important distinction.

    JamesGray,

    No, it's not an important distinction. If you remove the ability of trans people to transition to their identified gender then you're relegating many of them to suicide.

    Metaright,
    Metaright avatar

    What if they never wanted to transition in the first place?

    jcrm,

    Then they don't transition. Unless you want to make up some imaginary enemy to validate your hate.

    JamesGray,

    What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Trans people exist, so "eradicating" transgenderism only really has a couple options:

    1. detransition all trans people and do not allow any other trans people to transition, socially or medically

    2. kill all trans people

    Maybe if you're really stretching the definition of "eradicate" you could add an additional option:

    1. remove all trans people from public life, do not allow the discussion of transgenderism or the presence of trans people in public spaces
    bane_killgrind,

    You haven't been listening.

    Kantiberl,
    Kantiberl avatar

    I firmly believe everyone has the right to live freely and to find their own path, provided they don't harm others. Hate speech and violence have no place in our society, and I wholeheartedly stand with the trans community in advocating for their protection.

    Nonetheless, here's a viewpoint I have that I know is not accepted, but I'll share it anyway. I believe the compulsion of speech, particularly insisting that all of society adapt their language to accommodate individual identities, is a terrible approach. The notion of forced speech is problematic to me, and worries me greatly.

    That said, I believe it's important to work towards a society that respects every person, but without mandating how we perceive them. Life's journey is all about confronting adversity, and part of this involves learning to navigate the world as it is, not necessarily as we'd like it to be. Instead of dictating specific definitions, it might be more beneficial to cultivate a culture of empathy, understanding, and open dialogue around these issues. This perspective is unpopular and contentious, but it is a conversation that we should be willing to engage in.

    Anyways that's what I see as the moderate take, and it's what I believe. I had to tiptoe pretty hard there and I'm sure what I said still comes across as hate speech to some but I don't feel it is. It's just my opinion. I wish there was a place I could express it and have an open debate with people about it. We can't eliminate half of society, and we're going to have to learn how to empathize with people we disagree with in order to actually see where they are coming from.

    _thisdot,
    @_thisdot@infosec.pub avatar

    I believe this is indeed the moderate stance to take. People leaning towards either end will disagree with this statement! Lemmy, being a new place, is of course left-leaning and the disagreements here do reflect that! Nothing out of the ordinary!

    JamesGray,

    Nonetheless, here's a viewpoint I have that I know is not accepted, but I'll share it anyway. I believe the compulsion of speech, particularly insisting that all of society adapt their language to accommodate individual identities, is a terrible approach. The notion of forced speech is problematic to me, and worries me greatly.

    Is this the fucking Jordan Peterson position? Whose speech has been compelled? A man walked into a Philosophy of Gender class this week in Canada and stabbed three people, so sorry if I'm a lot more concerned with the constant hate speech being levied against LGBTQ+ people than I am with the anomalous concept of "compelled speech" which has not as of yet been an issue and only exists in the fever dream of transphobes who want to actively misgender people while working in public positions in Canada.

    nanoobot,
    nanoobot avatar

    I agree with you, but this is a really bad counterargument to what they said. Even widely agreed politeness conventions to a degree 'compel' speech, so the debate is really around what speech is acceptable for society to encourage/suppress, rather than whether cultural changes are changing what people are compelled to say. Also, I don't think they said anything that suggested they are more concerned by that than hateful violence?

    jcrm,

    That's a lotta words for "I don't respect what people want to be called". When you call someone by the wrong name and they correct you, is that also compelled speech to you? Because that's all pronouns are. By your definitions all of language is compelled speech, because you're being forced into using specific words to communicate.

    It can be your opinion all you want, but it's one you should evaluate and change, because it doesn't make any goddamn sense.

    be_excellent_to_each_other, (edited )
    be_excellent_to_each_other avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • JamesGray,

    It's actually even stupider than they're presenting it to be. The speech that was being "compelled" was explicitly not intentionally and repeatedly misgendering someone after being informed of their identified gender while working in a publicly funded position. I.e. when someone is acting as an agent of the government of Canada, they're not allowed to intentionally misgender people.

    They can literally quit their jobs if they don't want to do that, our speech is constantly compelled in similar ways in the workplace but they never care about that, because that's how jobs work. I may want to tell customers to go fuck themselves if they're rude, but I'm compelled to smile and nod and keep that for the break room afterwards if I want to keep my job.

    Crankpork,

    This. While things are new, and nothing has taken the place of "service that everyone uses", LGBTQA+ people are going to avoid the unsafe places which is going to push discussions further and further right. A "moderate" position that treats the bigots the same as people who just want to live and feel safe isn't moderate at all.

    Briguy24,

    An actual moderate position there is to just not go out of your way to be an asshole. But some people want to be assholes and vilify those who may not be able to protect themselves. I can't stand the people who want to 'debate' human rights. No, that line of thinking isn't welcome going forward.

    anteaters,
    @anteaters@feddit.de avatar

    Turns out people who work on open source in their free time to make the internet a better place for all are usually left wing, while the righties try to make money and fail.

    swirls,

    I'm on kbin now because I have no idea what I'm doing.

    sheepishly,
    sheepishly avatar

    based, me too

    burgundymyr,

    I figured out how to join lemmy by joining kbin, now I’m on both! The Jerboa app is better than anything I could find for kbin, so I joined lemmy.world and have a nicer interface.

    donuts, (edited )
    donuts avatar

    You're absolutely right that we have a bit of a terminology issue here, but one slightly advanced and techy thing to understand about the fediverse is that the fediverse itself is the "platform":

    Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, Calckey, etc., are software projects or processes that are running on some server somewhere, and ActivityPub is the protocol (kind of like a language) that all these processes use (to varying degrees) to speak with each other. As users, we interact with a specific server or service (like beehaw.org or kbin.social) that is running that software and sharing info with other servers through a protocol.

    This is totally different to Reddit or Twitter, which are both the names of the service AND (probably, but we don't now) the software that the service is running behind the scenes. Naturally that makes it a bit easier to talk about, because we don't have any access to or knowledge about the software or protocols that they use, and we can just talk about the services.

    This is all a long-winded way of saying that Kbin and Lemmy are replacements for Reddit (the software) while servers like kbin.social or beehaw.org are replacements for Reddit.com (the service), except they also talk to each other somewhat seamlessly. I'm logged into the server "kbin.social", which runs a software called "Kbin", which communicates over a protocol called "ActivityPub" to a bunch of users who are on other servers running other software.

    In other words, Google searching for "Lemmy" isn't exactly a good metric, not only because Reddit is one of the biggest websites around and Google knows this, but also because "Lemmy" isn't the actual name of the service that we are using right now, just the software. If you tell someone to go over to a specific server (like beehaw.org, kbin.social, etc.) then they'll have a much easier time finding something that they can actually use.

    Most of us are guilty of kind of glossing over all this stuff to keep things simple and easy to understand, but there are some layers of nuance to the fediverse here that make this a little bit more complicated than you're making it out to be imo.

    !deleted260470,

    deleted_by_author

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  • donuts,
    donuts avatar

    I don't know, and I think that's a fair point...

    Of course, part of the reason that Reddit is so easy to find on Google is because it's already a huge and established website with lots of traffic. It's never easy for a new site to compete with established players in terms of search engine results, and I think the bulk of that problem lies with the search engine providers themselves.

    BlackCoffee,
    BlackCoffee avatar

    Reddit is almost 20 years old now?

    Do you expect Lemmy and Kbin to be an immediate replacement or an replacement at all?

    May,
    May avatar

    I dont, but i understand people expecting kbin or Lemmy to be replacements bc people have said that theyre replacements for Reddit and to move there. And tbh kbin is not bad (havent used Lemmy much)

    ApollosArrow,
    ApollosArrow avatar

    Agreed. I am very confused by most of these types of comments. “Why isn’t this newer thing with a smaller user base as robust and efficient as a 20yr old platform?” Things take time. Not to mention it SHOULD also take time, since these instances would not be able to hold the amount of users Reddit has. I’m sure many people complained about Reddit when they jumped from Digg.

    Coelacanth,
    Coelacanth avatar

    I do like a lot of things about Kbin, and visually it's much better than unmodified Lemmy in a browser, but it also has its own share of problems, not least with intuitiveness. I don't understand why communities are called Magazines, and the terminology of "Favorite", "Reduce" and "Boost" are very confusing to me. Trying to make a new thread might lead you down a microblogging path instead since "Post" sounds more like a new thread than "Article" to a newcomer.

    There also seems to be much slower sync between Kbin and various Lemmy instances compared to intra-sync between lemmy instances themselves. Kbin also doesn't have an API (yet?), but a more tech savvy individual than me will have to say how big of a deal that is.

    Both Sync and Boost have large and loyal userbases and will probably attract plenty of users to Lemmy, and good Third Party Apps might help with first impressions and onboarding for new users.

    Ultimately though, content is king. I liked Kbin better when I first made my accounts, but then we had a Race Week in Formula 1 and the community here was dead while discussions were happening on Lemmy, and since the sync was slow so I ended up over there.

    makunabatata,

    Until search engines and LLM companies start crawling the fediverse, this will continue to be a niche of the internet, albeit perhaps large one at that.

    exohuman,
    exohuman avatar

    From my own experience as a user, it doesn’t matter whether you choose kbin or Lemmy in terms of what content you see. However, yes the look and feel for new users is much better with kbin (especially on iOS). Lemmy has some amazing front ends in development though that will eclipse kbin very soon. It’s just a matter of time.

    CybranM,

    I disagree, with lemmy there seems to be no activity in my subfeed and I dont understand how to add more "subreddits", with kbin I just go to "magazines" and subscribe to the ones I want

    originalucifer,
    originalucifer avatar

    3 of the top 4 results for me are fediverse related when searching for "lemmy".

    I don't think its the signing up, its the lack of centralization/community. reddit was a singularity, the community is protesting en-masse because they felt they were all part of the same thing.

    to me, the fediverse is a segmented.. oddly connected group of overlapping communities. it lacks cohesion.

    Kichae,

    The Fediverse is just the world wide social web. It lacks cohesion just the same way that the regular web does.

    That's going to limit its appeal for the people who see the internet as 3 cellphone apps. But that's also ok. It doesn't need to be for them.

    naught0,

    If kbin/lemmy/the fediverse are to be something the average reddit user wants to migrate to, then a lot of ground has to be covered still. There is no "reddit migration" possible or remotely likely without significant change, as much as I want the fediverse to succeed and as cool as I find it

    retronautickz,

    The average user doesn't want to migrate here, though. The average user is either content to keep their Reddit account or thinking on migrating to another big centralised platform.

    Open-source decentralised platforms like the fediverse and its projects aren't remotedly interesting for the average user.

    Kichae, (edited )

    "If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, to be honest.

    The average internet user has been ok with everything collapsing into a monolithic search engine and 4 giant social websites owned by 3 guys.

    Maybe we accept complexity and expect a little more out of the people who end up here. People whole like what things have become can stay where they are.

    SharkyAttack,

    This is a great take on the whole thing. Well said. But maybe the lack of centralization is why is seems so much more welcoming and friendly. Or maybe it’s just new and small. I almost never posted on Reddit in 6 years, but here I feel more part of the conversation because it isn’t one big overwhelming behemoth that I get lost in. Instead of a little fish in a big pond it feels more like a regular fish in a bunch of puddles.

    delirium,

    I tried signing up on various instances of lemmy for 2 weeks prior to the shut down. it failed over and over, kbin was recommended if I didn't have any particular reason for choosing lemmy instead. I'm grateful. I hope we don't kill Ernest though.

    kobra,

    Same experience. I tried to sign up on some lemmy instances this week and I think only 1 of 3-4 applications worked.

    MonsieurHedge,
    MonsieurHedge avatar

    It's also a hell of a lot clunkier. For all the talk of federation, it can be a total pain in the ass to view content on a non-native instance. Edits not loading, boosts/upvotes not taking, some posts just not showing up at all...

    Mars2k21, (edited )
    Mars2k21 avatar

    Agreed, and honestly this is why I don't think these federated platforms will ever truly get to a large scale. The amount of disconnection on a service that is meant for connecting people together. Unless its changed, the fediverse will be only for the group of people who are quite comfortable with technology (beyond just downloading an app and creating an account). The complexity needs to be hidden.

    HubertManne,
    HubertManne avatar

    I don't want the fediverse to replace reddit. I just want a place to post and share stuff without corpo baggage.

    DrYes,
    DrYes avatar

    You click join-lemmy.org and are presented with a page of information about the fediverse, links to set up a server and pictures of code...

    Not sure what universe you are from but in my reality that's just bullshit. What you said is there but right next to the "set up a server" button is a "join a server button". And right above the scary code pictures is another "join a server button".

    Gt5,

    I choose kbin over Lemmy because most Lemmy instances don’t work for me. I made accounts on Lemmy.world, beehaw, and here. Kbin is the only one I can log in on all of my devices. The Lemmy instances only work on my Mac, when I try to log in on my iPhone or windows machine the login just spins.

    So this is my home now

    Jaysyn,
    Jaysyn avatar

    I don't care if it replaces reddit. I care that it remains free of corporate control.

    Zandikar,
    Zandikar avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • delirium,

    for me, it was community I was seeking, and honestly not finding on Reddit. this, for me, may be what I wanted Reddit to be all along. taking that into consideration makes this less a replacement and more of what was missing. what I did love about Reddit was answers. content. we will get to watch that blossom. it's kinda exciting. also, I got my old username for the first time in 2 decades.

    DwarfGiraffe,

    User experience is an extremely important part of on going growth. I feel like even with the migration under the circumstances, the onboarding and learning curve for new users is very difficult on kbin or lemmy vs reddit or other mainstream socials.

    This may seem trivial to motivated users to go through the setup and learning required but for further migration and adoption the UX definitely needs significant improvement. I haven't seen or heard much being said on this subject regarding the fediverse in a serious way.

    Products that are already simple to understand and use, spend time refining and reducing friction for growth and retention. I know these products are in their early stages but while the fediverse has its pros, I am concerned that the rate of improvement of UX for the fediverse will be very slow. But I am hopeful that people will keep pushing to make it better.

    delirium,

    for YEARS I refused to use the site which should not be named because I hated the UI. RIF is literally the only reason I explored outside the group I joined for.

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