To some degree it's hard to be sympathetic, because the people complaining about this are seriously lacking in sympathy themselves. They just wanted to see the content that those users produced for them, they didn't care about the difficulties or preferences of the users themselves. So when those Spez-opposed users took their ball and went home the Spez-friendly people got angry at them for taking their comments away with them rather than at Spez for having driven them to that in the first place.
I think we're all mourning the loss of community and information found on reddit. Being angry that spez has forced protesters into the position to dismantle these communities is a legitimate and understandable reaction.
I don't see in the above comment that this person is spez-friendly or getting angry at the protesters specifically, just acknowledging that the whole thing sucks for everyone.
So I haven't been on Reddit since the blackout, so I don't know what the sentiment there is. I used the official app, so you can't accuse me of not being sympathetic for the cause.
But I have been creating content for years, many of which contained helpful solutions for IT problems in niche areas I took interest in. Now all this content is unhelpful because the sub is private or the original question context was deleted. This really bums me out that all this energy and effort has gone to waste.
The 'npm left-pad incident' is a case where a developer broke the internet by deleting a tiny piece of open source library which many other libraries were dependent on.
There is something to be said about abandoning and moving on without burning the bridges in the process, rendering not only your content as useless, but other people's as well
Now all this content is unhelpful because the sub is private
You could try sending a modmail to see if the mod will give you access to the sub so you can see your own content, or send you a copy of a specific post or comment.
or the original question context was deleted.
One thing to note is that this happened all the time on reddit as folks either deleted their question and throwaway account as soon as they got their answer. Other times folks would ask with their main account but used something like shreddit once a month. So this isn't exactly new to the protest.
When I move my content to its new home, I usually avoid naming the questioner and I briefly summarize their question/responses. This way the content has the added context to be understandable.
If the post is from Feb of this year or older and you forgot the context but want to save the content, you can search for the post in the pushshift torrents - if it was deleted as part of the protest then the pushshift torrent will have the original content in it and you can restore the context that way.
This really bums me out that all this energy and effort has gone to waste.
Additional effort is required to do what I do, but the result is that the effort has not gone to waste, instead folks who want it can view it on the fediverse.
There is something to be said about abandoning and moving on without burning the bridges in the process,
From my POV reddit burned those bridges.
rendering not only your content as useless,
It's not useless, it now serves to move people away from reddit. Remember, with reddit you never know when you will be permabanned - it seems to happen entirely at random nowadays.
but other people's as well
Mostly I've only seen three categories of this.
A throwaway or an account not logged into for a while. The owner if still alive probably doesn't have the access to move it away anymore anyways.
Content that is still present under "[deleted]" - person got hit by a 1k limit or something and missed deleting that before deleting the account.
Content from a mod, who has't moved off yet as they're trying to hold onto the sub for the protest.
I figure I'm better off moving my content with context anyways, since that prevents the person in 1. or 3. from coming back and confusing the context.
The other thing I do when commenting is quoting extensively, that way the context is clear from my own comments.
left-pad was a bit different in the sense that anyone could write it themselves, it’s just that the npm community adopted more of an “if it exists, let’s use it” mindset without thinking of the possibility that these dependencies can disappear suddenly. To be fair, I don’t have anything against using libraries where appropriate, I think they were just missing the guarantee that these libraries wouldn’t disappear suddenly on them.
With left-pad, its existence was valuable but the code used to create it really wasn’t that special. With Reddit, the information is valuable, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be hosted on Reddit. They’re flipped basically.
Tbh - some of us, like me, did leave our most valuable comments to the tech community behind. Whether it helps reddit or not I still posted things to help others. I did delete much of anything outside of very tech related subreddits though. Also I promoted some software I wrote when applicable so it would only cut off my own nose to try and spite Spez too, so no I would rather not do that.
Reddit will die a slow death I am sure, but the heart of reddit is certainly gone.
Yeah I didnt delete anything either, but if people don't go back that's what will really affect reddit in the long run. They can sit on their precious marketable content but if it stagnates it won't be worth squat after a while.
but if it stagnates it won't be worth squat after a while.
That might be true (but some content remains valuable after long periods of time too, think of all the good stories and classics from the turn of the 19th century for example), but even so, for those who are able it might be better to move the content now and delay even that much to reddit. (Not everyone can do this, and even for those that do it's extra effort, unfortunately.)
Also I promoted some software I wrote when applicable so it would only cut off my own nose to try and spite Spez too, so no I would rather not do that.
Yeah, that seems like a reasonable exception to the rule.
Exactly. My sympathies are with those creators & moderators who have received awful comments from reddit users that are too naive and impatient to understand the protest actions.
They seem to assume that new mommies & daddies mods & content creators will rise up to take their place. Like all that effort grows on trees or something.
I posted a similar comment elsewhere but along the same line of thought: The sad thing is that the masses that are still on Reddit at this point dgaf and will likely stay on Reddit forever. There's a real problem of Apathy in today's culture when people are just jonesing for their fix of daily content/memes, or at the very least nothing that disrupts the status quo. They don't give a fuck about "ideals" or what corporations do or farm from them so long as their instant gratification and daily intake of said content remains unchanged.
The sad thing is that the masses that are still on Reddit at this point dgaf and will likely stay on Reddit forever.
I actually consider this to be (mostly) a good thing. Within those that walk away from reddit, I expect the ratio of content creators vs. content consumers to be way above average. So if we get most of the people who used to make Reddit a great source of food for thought, and spez gets to keep the vast majority of cat video watchers, that's not a bad deal at all.
The most toxic users of Reddit want to stay there rather than come here? Oh boo-hoo, cry me a river:-). If they are happy with their childish toys, then let them be - that's a win for them, and a win for us too?
Okay, so that's glass-half-full thinking, and more realistically the situation is also half empty at the same time, but both are true at the same time, so we'll see what happens I guess.
lol I have to imagine a lot of the people active in Apple are pretty used to eating corporate overlord’s assholes so that doesn’t really come as a surprise…
I've seen many toots on Mastodon where people argue it is ethical to mirror Reddit now because so many people are destroying their content, and that will make searching for answers more difficult. Sure, I get their stance but at the same time I think is being a selfish scab.
The content that is now lost, will bounce back on some other plattform. Hopefully a better and more democratic plattform.
People love to blame the victim for defending themselves over the problematic person who is abusing them, because if they acknowledge that someone is being abusive that kind of morally obligates them to step in.
And they very much don't want to do that.
And obviously the exploitation of users for their knowledge and content so that the owners of Reddit Inc. can gain wealth for sitting on their thumbs is different from the kind of abuse one's mind might go to when the word is raised, but it's the same dynamic.
Someone is claiming mistreatment, those around them are annoyed by the claims, not by the mistreatment, because the person standing up for themselves is putting onlookers in the dangerous position of examining their relationship to that mistreatment.
i do not like what reddit is doing one bit, but please stop. what reddit is doing is not anywhere near equivalent to real actual abuse, and implying it is is a little offensive. have some perspective
as somebody who has several decades of parental abuse to look back on I don’t consider this offensive. on the contrary. spez and reddit follow many entries of the emotional abuse playbook to a t.
I've been abused. I suffer from ongoing complex PTSD from that abuse.
I have some fucking perspective, thank you very fucking much.
And that perspective is that the word is broadly defined, and that exploitation is fucking abuse. It's not physical abuse, no, and I didn't say that it was. I'm fact, I was very careful to avoid such comparisons. But exploiting people for their time and labour so that you can generate obscene amounts of wealth for yourself is exploitative, it involves lying to people, both implicitly and explicitly, and it involves engaging in emotional and psychological manipulation.
And that's a type of fucking abuse. It's the exact same type of abuse that narcissists inflict on their victims. It's just being done in a way that the law and our culture sees as legitimate, because there's a lot of money involved, and we all fall under the yolk of rich mother fuckers who think they deserve more from us, just because they already have money.
I make the comparisons not because I lack perspective, but because I have it.
Because corporate behaviour like this feels too fucking familiar, given that perspective.
I totally hear you that comments like this can feel insensitive of people who have been abused. I'm an abuse survivor so I get where you're coming from and appreciate your intent.
What I disagree with is that we shouldn't make this comparison at all. The same relational dynamics and structures that give rise to mental, emotional, physical, sexual, etc. abuse and exploitation give rise to this behaviour too.
The same as any form of abuse, no matter how big or small, is underpinned by the same thought patterns, behaviours, power dynamics, culture, societal attitudes and practices, etc.
EDIT: removed preview of pyramid so no one gets smacked in the face with unpleasant descriptions scrolling down. Typos.
Vicious, but true. I'm still struggling with whether or not I'm going to astroturf my comment history and delete my account. I see a lot of folks saying their comments were restored and then they had no way to log back in to delete them again. For now, I'm just going to leave my Reddit account dormant. I suppose it isn't super effective to leave my content there for Spez to benefit from, but I kinda feel like it does more harm to people just looking for answers than it ever will to Spez if I were to remove it. All around, this is just a ridiculously stupid situation we all find ourselves in over the whims of small minds chasing after big money. Again.
I think if people aren’t getting answers from reddit they are more likely to look elsewhere.
Exactly! That's why it's so important to save our content before removing it from reddit, so we can put those answers elsewhere - like the fediverse - which can help spread adoption of it.
May I say that whatever you decide to do, you've already "won" this? First, giving a shit about people, and second, spending time grappling with those truthfully complex issues has enriched you, and all of us.
One suggestion is to edit them with wording like fuck spez, so that if he deletes your content it won't be you that yanked it away from people.
But they could just revert that easily enough, rather than delete outright (although are they smart enough to do that...?). Another could be to insert an explanation at the top or bottom of all your (best/all) stuff that you do not condone Reddit's actions but decided not to punish end-users for the actions of that powermod abuser.
And eventually you could migrate it elsewhere but yeah, that's a bit hard to do atm when users would have trouble finding it. OR, you could combine these approaches: for each answer, make a post to kbin/lemmy about the issue, then edit the original to include solely a link to that new location. That would kill 2 birds with 1 stone by helping people realize where to go for high-quality content, while providing the direct answer (there's no need to create an account or deal with fediverse issues, anyone at all can just read it). (The down-side is that spez could easily revert that back too, but if so then you could keep trying, like spell out the link to futz with its automated detection.)
But whatever you end up doing, I see that you are doing it because you care, and that's already a win in my book. :-)
Same. I don't begrudge the people who want to salt and burn their Reddit history, but I'm leaving my old posts up for anybody who might be helped by them (plus most of them are just shitposts anyways)
I'm leaving my old posts up for anybody who might be helped by them
You could move them here and link from reddit - folks still get the help but reddit still loses ad revenue overall (as word-of-mouth and search engines slowly start to repoint others in need to the fediverse instead of reddit)
Personally, I'm leaving my comments intact because I doubt that Spez is really going to benefit much from them in the long run anyway.The technology behind AIs currently seems to be moving away from simply throwing vast amounts of data into the training to a more precisely fine-tuned high-quality training dataset, so there's probably not going to be as much demand for Reddit's trove as Spez thinks.
And besides, the old PushShift archives are still floating around. We don't know how the legal or technical situation will shake out but maybe people will be able to use that for free training.
The question is, does Reddit ownership believe the money is in LLM training data or not. We've seen tech leadership jump on all kinds of bandwagons in the last few years, none of which have panned out. I don't think LLMs will, either, but every time one of these things gains some limelight, someone with an established tech company seems to believe they're about to make a lot of money.
And in this case, they actually might. Just not off of the tech, but off of an IPO where they centre the tech as the opportunity for new investors.
But I have no idea if they're smart enough to see the scam and run the play, or if they're true believers or not.
I'm leaving my comments intact because I doubt that Spez is really going to benefit much from them in the long run anyway
The technology behind AIs
I think rather than AI the idea is to reduce ad revenue by moving content off of reddit so folks will stop checking reddit and thus reddit has fewer ads seen.
I'm still struggling with whether or not I'm going to astroturf my comment history
I kinda feel like it does more harm to people just looking for answers than it ever will to Spez if I were to remove it
Here's what I recommend to have the best of both worlds, while still taking advantage of mass editing tools.
Create a magazine or two on kbin specifically just to hold your content.
Copy it over and paste it into your mags.
Mass edit your content on reddit with the usual message, but also include a link to your kbin profile. Folks who want to see the useful content can still find it that way.
Is this the ultimate move? Kbin magazine = reddit post, right? What community do you plan to post it in?
For example, I have a few game-specific guides. I was going to just post them over at Games.lemmy or whatever games is the most popular, with the game in the title, since game-specific communities haven’t seemed to migrate over - specifically, Vindictus, Control, and Outriders (which I’ve written guides on)
Most of us on the fediverse can sympathize with the idea that "its really frustrating not being able to use Reddit as a reliable spurce for obscure knowledge."
The difference is that we feel "its really frustrating that I can't rely on Reddit, because even if the answer is there I can't in good conscience support spez." Instead of "all the answers are gone because of these stipid protests."
Yes exactly. What’s the root cause? The good info is gone. Why is the good info gone? The people making it were pushed beyond their limits. Why were they pushed to far? Spez wants to make reddit publicly profitable (sure that’s not crazy by itself). Now we split up the next level. Either he wants reddit to live on foreverish and be self sustained or he wants to go public and dip the hell out of there. Going public is clearly bad when it is entirely valuable based on voluntary work and user based content. Fuck over all of the value and it’s not about keeping reddit alive foreverish, it’s about going public and fucking off. Whoever gets stuck with the bag when corporate dips is screwed.
Very much the truth. I cautiously suggested that people leave their content up simply as an archive of useful knowledge, but fbfw was downvoted to oblivion. I understand people wanting to depart and take their ball home with them because fuck you spez, but I still have a hard time with the destruction of the knowledge base.
Same here. I've left all my posts and comments up on Reddit. I'm sure it's made it's way in some form to Bard or ChatGPT. Just never know when some information would be helpful in a pinch, especially if it's tech or programming related.
The loss of /r/homeautomation has set me back a week at least with respect to home maintenance. The loss of knowledge is crazy.
Funny you mention /r/homeautomation, I’m in the same boat. Pro tip, though: if you found the Reddit result using Google, you can always look at the cached content.
If you’re on mobile, first open the search results page as the “desktop” version (for some reason it’s not an option in the mobile view). If you’re or after you’ve done that, click the three dots next to the result. When the modal pops up, click the dropdown arrow under “More options” at the top. Then click “Cached”.
Voilà. Read post and comments despite it being private/in protest.
Just never know when some information would be helpful in a pinch, especially if it's tech or programming related.
But wouldn't directing redditors to the fediverse to get their answers (specifically like "Content moved due to reddit's stance on ... link to this answer is at https://kbin.social/m/...") be better?
Just never know when some information would be helpful in a pinch, especially if it's tech or programming related.
That's exactly why we need to work on rebuilding it in the fediverse. The danger with reddit is that this info would have always been lost no matter what. Because of central control a mod could hide it. A reddit admin could outright delete it. The ceo has edited comments before. Why should we trust that our content will be safe with him?
Maybe kbin.pub should have a banner at top like "Got here by mistake? Maybe you just want to join an instance? Try ..." with .. being picked at random on each page load. Or we could have a featured kbin instance of the month or something...
Assuming we coalesce around Kbin, 5-6 years down the road when Kbin is a lot more polished and has a significant user-base,h ow do we prevent a repeat of Reddit?
It’s inherent in human nature to coalesce, to form a community, which ultimately creates a centralized hub that is ripe for control by a few people.
Federation already solves this, mostly. If kbin.social disappeared, other places like kbin.cafe and kbin.lol would have copies of the magazines, so content wouldn't be lost. And the community could regroup under a new magazine.
The only issue is magazine portability - right now there doesn't seem to be a way to annoint an instance to be the new owner of a magazine that's hosted by the kbin.social instance. But maybe that technical problem will be solved in within the next five years.
Also, the Kbin dev expressly stated he isn't ready for a massive migration, and the current influx has caused him no end of stress. We want to keep him around and not drive him insane.
I appreciate the concern, and it seems to me that kbin is no longer just one person ;) Currently, kbin is a team of wonderful people who handle development work, devops, project management, and more. Additionally, Piotr helps me with administering kbin.social. There will be significant changes here soon, things are happening quickly. But to be honest, I wasn't fully prepared for such substantial growth, and it will probably take some time before everything stabilizes. But... this is just the beginning ;) What's important is that the snowball starts rolling, regardless of whether kbin, Lemmy, or Mastodon gains the most users. We all win in this situation.
Kbin is PHP/Symfony, but people are writing tools in various languages, not to mention clients. I haven't looked at the client repositories, but I assume that some, if not all, of the codebases for them are Java.
The thing that helps Kbin the most is that it is, by far, the easiest to understand. Googling "Lemmy fediverse" gives a bunch of various links to other Lemmy instances, which are presented in a way as if they are separated from one another. Kbin appears as one site, one location for content aggregation. Although that "goes against the idea" of decentralization, most users are currently looking for their "one home to replace their old one home". The more users flock to one area and learn how it works, the more things will begin to take their proper shape, so to speak.
A feature we'll definitely want to have with kbin in the future is the ability to migrate accounts to other instances. That would mean that even though we're centralizing on kbin.social right now, people could move to other instances and spread the load across the fediverse without losing their history
I'm still learning the ins and outs of this place and the others, but part of me thought that was the feature of being federated. User accounts could seamlessly transfer from one instance to another.
Looking further into it, it looks like that feature exists for content, but not so much for accounts.
Kbin doesn't have the ability to sort comments by top. To me, that is the #1 most important feature, and not having it when it's easy to do shows some real ignorance. The reason I come to these sites is to see the best comments on news of the day.
Weird response. The vast majority of people switching over here are not programmers and don’t know how to update the source code to implement a new feature. The other guy never said it would be easy, but rather, that the feature is a critical one that’s missing.
New_Account:
The other guy never said it would be easy
Plague_Ship:
and not having it when it's easy to do shows some real ignorance
So ... not only did they say that it was easy, they also insulted Ernest because the ALPHA software wasn't yet up to the lofty standards of Plague_Ship. I have to assume that when Ernest had a couple hundred people in here max, the issue just never came up. It's not ignorance, it's priorities.
To each their own but sometimes it's nice to just scroll through comments and see the varied replies instead of just fed the top/earliest on some posts. Imo it increases user engagement.
Brother, acting like a douche to people who are working and paying for you to be here shows some real arrogance. You're not a customer here. There's no ad revenue, no data collection, no money. If you want it so bad then do it yourself. Beauty of the fediverse is you can go make your own instance that does what you want it to do.
Even with the donations I doubt there's that much of a profit to being made. Servers are expensive, and there's no way that servers are the only overhead that ernest is dealing with.
His own knowledge, skills, abilities, and time are almost certainly worth more than he is receiving in donations. Dudes a skilled programmer/developer and is putting serious work into this. If he was putting his time and effort into freelance work instead he'd be building a heck of a nest egg.
12 years ago reddit would crash all the time. To make it worse they always told me I was the one who broke reddit personally by putting a message on my screen. My bad yall.
Yeah, I always thought it was a little unfair when it popped up telling me that "Briguy24 broke reddit!". But I never held it against you, don't worry :)
They're not redundant functions. They're... Mixed up on kbin right now, because things were originally built with the up button boosting content, but that's incongruent with how Lemmy does it, so it was changed.
But boosting isn't really about sorting at all. It's about republishing content, so that it can be sent out to instances that have started following a group after the content was originally posted.
Perhaps more importantly why would one retweet a comment? Rather than a post?
The way content propagation works here is that someone using Website A follows a remote content source (either a user, or a group -- aka a "community" or a "magazine"), and the remote hosting website (let's call it Website B) sends all subsequent content from that source to Website A, where the requesting user can then view it. If someone from Website A was already following that content source, then they get to see all of the content that Website A had already received, and benefit from earlier users efforts. But if that person was the first from Website A to subscribe to that content source, then they only get future content.
It's very similar to a, well, a magazine subscription in that way. NatGeo isn't sending you their 150 years worth of back catalogue when you subscribe in 2023 (not that you should bother subscribing to NatGeo in 2023).
The 'boost' button republishes content, though. Posts, comments, whatever. Hitting 'boost' on a comment republishes it, and once republished the group actor (the little bot-like construct that functionally is the group) sees it as new content, and pushes it out to everyone following it. This means it will reach websites that started subscribing to the group after the comment was originally posted.
Boosting is how older content (where older basically means "from anytime before literally right now") spreads through the fediverse.
Thank you so much for this explanation, it really helped some of this click for me. I don’t use kbin, so the boosting isn’t so relevant to me, but I’m beginning to understand some of how the federation works together.
I'm not sure how Lemmy syncs and backfill, but under its hood, I imagine it's doing the same thing, just automatically. Lemmy groups are really spammy with boosts when viewed from Mastodon, for instance.
So this is one of those things like git, where you can't explain how it works on the surface to a normal person because it barely even makes sense if you don't know about the underlying plumbing. :\
Not awesome, but I guess that's what you get when you graft a reddit-like experience onto a fediverse that was more or less invented for microblogging.
How it's interpreted it is entirely up to the UI layer. On microblogs, it's surfaced as a retweet-like behaviour, but it's not surfaced at all here, really, except on kbin where it's used to report who has reboosted something.
At its core, it's a republish button, and just as if you were to republish someone else's blog post on your own blog, people can see, if they look closely enough, that you've done it.
Yea, i'm working on my own Fedi software and i'm struggling with the point of boosting in the link aggregator context. It's an odd overlap with Reddit-style reposting to appropriate subs, but based on the user.
It makes sense in the Twitter UX, but i struggle to find it's place in the Reddit UX.
I think boosts have potential to be used for crossposts, and the current implementation are just crossposts to your profile. Though they're likely here right now just because Kbin is a mix between thread and microblog software
Boosting is super important in all contexts in the Fediverse.
When am instance subscribes to a content source - be that a user actor or a group actor - on behalf of a user, it only requests future content. Back catalogues are not fetched by default. Boosting re-publishes the content, so that it is received by new followers.
With a group actor, the boost triggers the actor to reboot the content itself, sending it out to new subscribers to the group, and filling in that back catalogue.
Users who use the website that the community is hosted on have access to the full library of it. They need to boost stuff. And people who subscribe from remote sites need to boost older content that they've seen.
but relevant users cant see it, its never fetched for them to see it. Sure users on the home instance can see it, but they're on the home instance, it's already fetched for them. Ive run into this problem on here, where there is a lot of content on other instances that isnt visible from kbin. I have the option of visiting the home instance to see it, but it takes me completely off of kbin, I cant boost it from that page.
Someone just needs to follow. The community owner either needs to seed the community to big instances using accounts on them, or people who find the community via other instances need to subscribe and know that fresh content will come. Then they can boost older content from the hosting site.
Things take some conscious effort here. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.
"Then they can boost older content from the hosting site." No that's the problem. Like you yourself said back catalogues arent fetched. They can't see the older content to be able to boost it, they'll only see new content.
If my instance follows a community at time t = T, and your instance starts following it at time t = T+10, I can boost content posted between T and T+9 so that you can see it.
Meanwhile, if people on the hosting instance boost things posted from times earlier than T, we both get to see them. Then, once they're visible to us, we can continue to boost them for new instances to see.
If boosting is meant to be a solution to the back catalogue problem, then it's a horrible way to do it. You'd have to go through and boost every single post from before the hosting instance was followed, and then it'd only show up the user page of the guy who went to all of that effort? (or, realistically, bot).
If what I'm saying is accurate (and I'm still not sure because this is admittedly a bit too complicated for me) then it doesn't sound very useful since individual profiles aren't nearly as important in a forum context when compared to something like twitter, and especially when you can just upvote something and have that show on your profile. Unless I'm mistaken and anything you've upvoted doesn't propagate to another automatically instance while boosts do... but I don't think that's a big enough distinction to have two different buttons? You could just have an upvote also do that.
I see it as similar to the "save" function on Reddit, except it's public. I've started using it on things that I think I might like to read again later (and so by extension anyone who's "like me" would probably want to read it too).
i disagree, it's a great functionality that people should learn.. and here's the simple point.. you can BOOST a comment you disagree with, so that your argument AGAINST the comment will get more visibility.. reddit is dysfunctional, and this mechanism can help fix one of the problems reddit cannot get rid of.. this mechanism can help discussion, and fight against things like brigading..
think about it a minute.. someone makes a really TERRIBLE point that you can dismantle easily.. tear it down, and BOOST the hell out of it.. reddit cannot accommodate that.. keeping those two functions separate is critical..
this will help keep every thread from becoming a popularity contest that is entirely predictable, once people figure it out
edit to add: i've only been using this platform for a few days.. but i promise you, it works the way it's supposed to.. try it out..
The thing is that it really is no longer about 3rd party apps working or not, rather, the level of disrespect displayed from Reddit towards us, their userbase. That's why I'm not going back.
The only thing I'll be giving Reddit is my traffic, more than happy to lurk the comment but I definitely won't be posting, commenting, upvoting/downloading or helping admins by reporting spam and rule violations. None of that effort anymore
Traffic quality plays a big role too. If you never click on or engage with any ads your visits aren’t worth much anyway. You could even vpn yourself from a poor country and be considered even less valuable to the ad machines lol
The leadership is too much for me. Too many right wing shitbirds with conspiracy delusions, too much open partying with Ghislaine(sp?) Maxwell, and too many mishandled scandals relating to sexual content with minors.
Huffman (Spez) gave some interview where he talks about civilization falling and he’d “be a slaver rather than a slave” (paraphrasing, I don’t have the interview open) which is just wild because he’s scrawny as fuck.
There’s always rumors of an IPO but I feel like the current staff isn’t fit to head a public company and would crumble under wide public scrutiny like on the markets
It’d be a preferable situation if it were either/or but even then I realize I’m probably not big and bad enough to strong arm myself into that position everyone else would rather have.
Spez is/was a doomsday prepper though I think he figures he’s got an edge over everyone else
Little late to the game on this one but I did finally get my words to reflect how and why I feel I do about this situation, I commented it recently on another post but I'm gonna drop it here again as I hope it can add to this discussion.
I quit when rif went down. I've never used an official app, desktop site, mobile site etc. Rif was Reddit to me for 10 years. Maybe leaving as a collective will make some difference, maybe not, but I'm going to start being more firm on how much I'll let companies try to push me around expecting me to just take it. They built it on our backs, then just took it away so a literal select few can cash in, when they are already filthy rich and had other options.
I've been explaining it to others as if you broke your phone. Now it's frustrating getting used to a new phone, but it has lots of new features you never even thought of that make up for the inconveniences. Sure I could go back to my old phone, it's comfortable to use, but the screen is broken and it cuts me now and again, and over time it'll cut me more often. I'd rather get used to the new phone.
This past year I've dealt with food going up, gas, utilities, rent, hell cigarettes and even beer, my fishing license went up. Every single nook and cranny they can pull a cent from you they will.
I'm done choosing to let them. If they want my data, my attention, my content, they can pull it from my cold dead hands damnit.
After the whole Brock turner the rapist crusade (deserved) I've been sitting here scratching my head why spez wasn't named and shamed with his real name by the same group.
Give Apollo a contract guaranteeing free API access until the end of time without nonsense restrictions on content and maybe I'd think about it. Short of that I'm all set.
(No it's not just Apollo. But he's the most wronged and the one I use.)
Fact is even if Reddit rolled back the changes it’d be the classic “let’s see how far we can push our user base then we’ll roll that back to acceptable levels while slowly pushing those limits through later updates” strategy
Same. I used to use the official app because when I started using Reddit, I was not aware of third party apps. Then it was just inertia. After this fiasco started, I started trying various apps and used sync for the last 3 weeks. Now i'm here.
Reddit has made clear they have no respect for their users, especially their most active users responsible for creating and moderating their content. No matter what reddit does or doesn't do now, it is obvious it will continue to get worse.
It's also a wake up call to those who created content and did tons of free moderating for no gain other than personal prestige ... it is making us all realize that whenever we put in extra effort into a social media website that is privately owned - we create the content and reason for the sites existence but we don't financially benefit from it, someone else does who did no work to create any of it other than to claim ownership over everything.
It's the same old story from a thousand years ago or even the arguments of worker rights from the 1800s ... we create the means of production but we receive no benefit from our work
I’m struggling to find as much interesting content as I did on Reddit. BUT I am much more easily finding pleasant conversations. And that I think is more important.
I’m posting more here than I did on Reddit because I want to be the change I want! Also I’m still learning to navigate this place too. I like it though.
I'm having a different experience with the content but can understand where you are coming from. I spent a lot of time searching out the niche communities I'm interested in and subscribing across all the instances i can find. Trying to actually post more too and encourage others.
The conversation aspect is so true though. It's been the most present surprise and is part of what's driving me to engage and start posting.
The bots posted most of the interesting content in Reddit, and it’s unhealthy to have a constant stream of “interesting” content to browse through. For the time being, this seems much more organic content, and there is actually a bottom to hit in terms of content which makes me want to do something besides endlessly scroll.
I agree 100%. It became too stimulating, and with Memmy I don’t have this addicted feeling of having to browse for hours and hours, but I still find some cool stuff when I open the app
I was a RedReader user for quite a while (as in years). While being a bit spartan, I found it to be the best Reddit app for my preferences. Period.
But indeed, nowadays, there is actual (great) content on Lemmy and Kbin, and I am willing to get to it. Not much time left for Reddit. Sorry, spez, fuck you!
Satire doesn't work as well on fedi when everybody has to check what instance they're on AND what instance you're posting from to figure out if you're serious
A clear-cut and uncontroversial rule that will see little to no opposition, yes.
And in many cases it's also clear-cut and uncontroversial whether someone is a fascist or a bigot.
But in other cases, you're going to run into trouble. A particular case in point; I don't like the Disney Star Wars sequel trilogy. I have, in the past, been immediately called a sexist when I've mentioned that fact. But I personally don't care one whit about the gender of the trilogy's protagonist, I just think they're bad movies. Maybe there are other people who actually do care and that's the reason they don't like those movies. Maybe there are people who don't believe me when I say I personally don't care about the gender of the trilogy's protagonist. So, is https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/ a bigoted community? If there was a Fediverse equivalent, should it be blocked? Different people will argue different ways.
I can think of lots of other scenarios, I won't make a big rambling list because I'm sure I'll step on a landmine eventually. I'm just arguing that seemingly simple straightforward "rules" that are easy to agree with can still end up mired in complexity when people try to implement them in the real world.
The concern you raised cannot be overstated. Accusing someone of bigotry or hate because their opinions of a subject are different has become a common invalidation and attack strategy. Another example is the Little Mermaid movie. By most accounts it's just not a very good movie. But you'll likely be called a racist by certain groups if you state that you don't like it. I haven't seen it. I don't have an opinion on it. But I witnessed the resulting arguments unfold across the internet. It is okay to dislike works created by or starring POC. It is not okay to dislike them because they were created by or star POC. Some people seem to find it impossible to differentiate between the two.
That's a bad faith argument they used against you for having a good opinion that they disagree with. In my personal head cannon I ignore the prequels and sequels because they cheapen the original plot. Rogue One I'll take though.
I'm a fan of the Machete Order, which salvages two of the three prequels. The prequels weren't good, but the story was reasonably sound at least and inserting them between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi actually does some nice improvements to the overall pacing IMO.
in many cases it's also clear-cut and uncontroversial whether someone is a fascist or a bigot.
Perhaps different life experiences. In many cases nothing is really clear-cut when it comes to people and their opinions. People who believe "they figured it out" inadvertently become totalitarians.
“No nazis or bigots” is a nice slogan, but if people turn off our brains and turn off our humanity and just start mindlessly chanting slogans that justify the punishing of our enemies, then there’s no difference between us and the typical German in 1938.
It doesn’t take a lot to end up in a bad place if we think we’re purely good and in the right and our enemy is purely evil.
Are you familiar with the Salem witch trials, the werewolf trials in France in the 1500s and 1600s and the Satanic Panic of the late 80s and early 90s? Those people thought they were morally justified in anything they did against the accused because they were fighting against literal Satan.
World War 2 ended 75 years ago. Virtually everyone who was a Nazi is dead of old age.
also funny that you only bring up horseshit things as your dodge with witches, werewolves and Satan, you know all not real, but Nazis and bigots are real so it seem a weird comparison
There are plenty of white supremacist fascists out there. People often call them nazis because we don't give a shit about splitting hairs regarding if they are a member of the actual Nazi party or if they're just closely related scum.
There is a really, really big difference between "we want to kill you" and "we do not want to be killed by you".
Don't tolerate fascists. However comfortable that centrist illusion is, you are signing your own death warrant and that of millions of others (most of whom will suffer the consequences of your actions long before they get around to the people who feel safe enough to argue that fascists must be tolerated).
You have some really stupid ideas, but this one takes the cake. And the one where you think Nazi ideology is dead because you haven't seen anyone wearing a swastika.
If you find the idea that mindlessly chanting slogans to justify punishing your enemies wrong so offensive, go ahead and keep chanting. There’s certainly nothing I can do to stop you.
The reason the world wars and the holocaust were so traumatic to western civilization wasn’t that nobody thought humans were capable of such barbarity (We had plenty of horrors throughout history that western civilization was perfectly aware of), it’s because everyone thought enlightened western civilization with its liberalism and enlightenment and Christianity wasn’t capable of such barbarity. Then we had a huge wake-up call.
I get pushback from both sides of the political spectrum at the idea that we need to remain cognizant and critical of our own actions even if we think we’re fighting a dangerous enemy.
We're not talking about punishing anyone, we just don't want to hear or see their bigotry. They can have their space and we can choose not to interact with them.
I don't feel like there is as much gray area here as you're making it out to be. There is a big difference between
"The new star wars movies are bad cause they are WOKE!1!1!1!1!1 Women are bad!"
vs
"The new star wars movies were an incohesive mess due to changes between writers and directors for all 3 films"
But also it's not like we will be defederating whenever people get in a slap fight, people are still going to have shitty opinions on any instance and get downvoted for that. This is for a pattern of behavior being tolerated and prolific.
The whole reason /r/saltierthancrait exists is because the folks at /r/starwars largely refused to make that distinction. It could be that "misogynist" was simply a convenient weapon to bludgeon the people who disagreed with their taste in movies and they didn't genuinely believe that everyone who disliked those movies were misogynist, but the weapon was deployed nonetheless and resulted in a schism.
Yeah I have no doubt someone called him a sexist for not liking the new SW, but from what I've seen across communities online 99% of people are easily able to distinguish between someone critiquing films over being a misogynist. And there was def rampant misogyny in some places when they got released.
If you want to tolerate Nazis, bigots, fascists, etc under the guise of "free speech" then this is not the instance for you. And I hope we maintain that moving forward. Y'all can have your own hellhole somewhere else
I’ve read it’s a work in progress and may be changed at some point to be consistent across the Fediverse. Poor guy is slammed with feature requests and bug reports with Kbin.
From what I can see the upvote / downvote both work as you'd expect now (as in upvoting curates content). There was apparently a period of time where 'boost' was the upvote mechanic but that's been changed
There's definitely room for improvement, but I like what I see so far and don't have a problem learning a new paradigm. I'm sure that as the platform matures things will become more consistent.
This is from the various services trying to talk to each other in ways they weren't originally designed to do, really. Our "upvote" is a mastodon "favorite" (like) while our "boost" is functionally a retweet/reblog. Kbin tries to bridge the gap between threaded content and microblogging, and it gets about 90% of the way there; all it really needs to do is change it so that upvotes are the ones that contribute to reputation instead of boosts, which are functionally useless outside a fully microblog-style environment.
Boost is like retweeting something, you can have followers in the fediverse. Boosting makes something more visible to everyone, so you upvote/downvote things you personally like/dislike and boost things you think your followers/everyone would like
Think of this place as a cross between email, Twitter and reddit. All communities can interact with each other and are independent
Listen, there are so many legitimate criticisms of Reddit, no one needs to make things up. This happens every year in June. Somebody posts about Tiananmen, some automod or real mod removes it, someone screams "Reddit" is censoring things.
There are tons of posts about Tiananmen that are still up after years. Tencent owns a small minority stake in Reddit.
spreading misinformation is what he's here for and so the post stays. why else would one wait 3 weeks to dig up a comment, get all the facts wrong, and use it as clickbait to stir up fake drama over absolutely nothing and make reddit critics look stupid. while plenty of real things are going on where the critics are right. "I will keep this post up because I think it is an interesting discussion to have" my ass and that's a dead giveaway of the guy's bad faith agenda. straight from the cointelpro playbook for online misinformation
Hold on, I am not here to spread misinformation! Like I said before, I genuinely had no idea about the trend of Tiananmen square posts since I don't browse r/all. As for why I haven't retitled it yet...didn't know you could!
Also the 3 week old twitter post, I got from a discord friend.
How many people will read the title without the comments and leave with the wrong idea?
Not that I think you should take the post down, but the title is quite definitive, and confirms existing biases, so people are unlikely to research further.
This sort of comment is why my 5yr Reddit account has > 200K karma. I was very active on Reddit via Boost app, and I'm happy to nuke the whole thing and start over after the way they've been acting. I really don't think they have any idea what they've done.
Tiananmen Massacre anniversary is June 4, so there are multiple posts about it (which is great), and a couple of those posts get removed (usually for really obvious violations of sub-specific rules), and someone sees that and cries "Reddit is censoring! CCP shills!"
It's also just silly to think CPP would bother censoring Tiananmen square on /western/ websites.
Maybe within the firewall, and maybe try to influence coverage on contemporary issues, but I don't think they actually care about redditors sharing images from their history textbook,
Thank you, this has to be one of the more annoying Reddit conspiracy theories, especially because every year multiple posts with clickbait titles would hit the front page.
Also tencent doesn't have "massive" investments in reddit, they invested 150 million USD when reddit was valued at a worth of 2-3 billion. So they have a less than 10% stake.
The mod's response to Reddit, in case people don't want to go there:
According to them, your favourite subreddits going NSFW is too much for you to understand. The infamous Mod Code of Conduct messaged us, demanding we switch back, because “you’re likely confused by all the NSFW content you’ve been seeing”.
They didn’t allow us to reply, so we couldn’t explain that this is a subreddit for an 18+ game, nor has any of our content changed. This subreddit should have been NSFW already, but we’d never thought to change it until recently.
Until we change it back we’re in violation of Reddit’s sitewide rules. We’re not going to change it back, because this is a sexually explicit game, and also fuck them.
If we’re removed at least we got to go out on an fantastically fun flair event (don’t worry this won’t stop your flair from being added I promise), and if this sub changes back from NSFW then you know you’re no longer in control of it.
Rest assured; we have 77 fans all over Reddit, with r/lowsodiumcyberpunk being a decent fall back. We’ve never worked together on anything, but we’ve made an effort to stay on good terms with one another, and I trust them to take care of you all.
Edit: this has hit r/all choombas so assume there are a lot of people here just to feed on the drama
Some time after posting this here, the mods added a second edit:
Edit: since hitting r/all there have been a bunch of accounts created in the last month attacking us and defending Reddit admins with a vigour I’ve never seen before. That seems suspicious, at the very least
So it seems that someone (probably Reddit themselves) caught wind of this and attempted to astroturf it with bots... Now who's recently been caught doing that?
They stayed open during the blackout and the bootlickers used the place to complain about the protests. And when the blackout ended, the bootlickers never left …
Trust me, before I deleted my account there were so many users in the sub salivating at all the unfolding drama. While they didn't participate in the blackout, I wonder how many migrated to Fedi. Might indicate why there isn't as much activity as I remember.
I am one of them. Only that I wallowed in the drama AND THEN participated in the protests.
I lurk there once in a while and yes, it is fucking dead. That whole sub just fell dead with the only active posts not even being drama at all.
Compare it what it looked like two months ago. Back then I thought that sub would be the last one to still stand, before it too imploded. But no! Everyone who made that sub so funny already migrated here (love y’all, you beautiful fucks) and all that’s left are these sad excuses of posters and commenters.
That whole sub just fell dead with the only active posts not even being drama at all.
After all that hype of how dramatic things would be...yesterday half a dozen posts down on the front page and the posts are 2 days old. Buckets and buckets of popcorn all laid waste...a shell of what it once was...all the buttery goodness is lost in time...like tears in rain.
There's also libreddit, which seems to be an entirely separate project to teddit. Kind of like the Federation, it's software anyone can run and there are quite a few instances out there
Reddit has already showed how much it cares about its users. We've tried going private, we've tried going restricted, we've tried going NSFW, we've tried spamming John Oliver posts, we've tried asking nicely in open letters, and Reddit has consistently given its community the middle finger in every single situation. And now that we've seen the admins change rules, remove mods, ban users, and break privacy laws, the plan is to just do the exact same thing they did before in the hopes that it'll work this time?
If a blackout on the platform was going to get Reddit to change its mind, that would've happened already. The time to induce change was two weeks ago, when the protests had lots of momentum. But it didn't work, and trying to make another stand now is going to be even less effective.
I still think that the best move is to leave Reddit for alternatives like /kbin, Lemmy, and Squabbles. Thankfully, some of the comments on the /r/ModCoord announcement are also saying this. Instead of desperately trying to cling to a platform that doesn't care about you, go somewhere else.
I get your point, but keeping it in the news and dialog outside of reddit is also good, and that is more likely to happen due to things going on inside of it.
At this point any reddit protests need to sort focus on tarnishing the platforms reputation further. They've made it clear they won't course correct.
Top of mind, spamming the subs with content that looks bad for them to remove. The ideal would be dirt on spez (e.g comments he made on /r/jailbait), but it could even be something more reserved like a charity link or "why I'm leaving" memes.
July 1 is a good excuse to get another news cycle out of this, and warn potential investors skeptical of the future of the company.
I've been going through and deleting my comments and posts as I get time (deleting your account doesn't delete your comments/posts). Once all my comments/posts are deleted, my account will get deleted as well.
YMMV, but as someone with Memory and Cognitive Impairment, I found it straight forward enough to use. You just need to drag a button to your bookmarks bar and then click it when you're on Reddit. Select what you want to edit and/or delete and go. Take a while to do (at least it did on my 6yo account) so I went off and did other stuff while waiting.
Thanks much! In another thread recently someone suggested that Power Delete Suite would quite working along with the other apps in a couple days, so I better get to it.
Why shouldn't they do it though? As if they had something to lose. I prefer this over just leaving the site and making it easy for Reddit to just instate new Moderators that want to lick ass and chew gum and they're all out of gum.
Don't take this comment as complete disagreement though, I get your point.
I think there is something to lose though. Aside from being a waste of time, it's a waste of user goodwill. We've already seen how momentum for this stuff wanes over time. If you wait too long before starting the migration process, people just won't be interested. Obviously, it's a gradual thing, but many moderators don't seem to have even started trying.
Which do you think is going to be more effective:
Spamming your sub with John Oliver shitposts, going private occasionally whenever /r/ModCoord says so, and then making plans to migrate when interest has gone down and people have returned to the status quo
Well that's the sad reality. I don't think most people want to move. They are hoping reddit fixes itself or at least compromises on their plans. I was in that same boat myself during the first blackout way back in 2015.
Ofc, I saw over 8 years how they proceeded to do almost none of their promises, implement actual user centric features when the loudest subs literally broke reddit, and threw in a bunch of stuff no one asked for: crappy video player, hiding QoL behind a paywall, polls that barely work on old reddit, adding NFTs over a year after the internet went to war with the concept?
Yeah, I'm a very patient man, but around 2019 I realized not much was going to change. And the coup dtat is that the communities themsselves have gotten more and more polarized over time. I remember a time where I could at least lightly touch into some political issues as long as I stick to smaller subs. During my last days (around the time blocks updated to be much worse) I was being blocked for correcting grammatical errors. Not minor stuff, stuff that would fundamentally change the meaning of their sentence.
So yea, I've given up. But it took me years after my "breaking point" and I'm sure for others they will be in the same boat
Mods should all leave en masse. Or stop moderating. Or moderate maliciously, deleting real posts, promoting spam, off-topic, etc. Sabotage at this point. Nothing will change Huffman's mind other than massive site-wide loss of users. And the only way to do that is to tank the quality of reddit. Either by sabotage or a simple lack of good moderators. Reddit simply couldn't find enough mods to keep reddit afloat if all of the ones organizing protests simply stopping working for free. It'd be bedlam overnight. That should be the organized protest.
I think something to remember is that some communities on Reddit are essential and important to people's wellbeing. There are subreddits that help people get through cancer, or help people with depression and suicide. I help (as best I can) with a subreddit that helps people with access to what can be life changing and life saving medical cannabis. Reddit, as much as I despise social media and centralisation of power and knowledge can be the sole place some people go for support. Of course it shouldn't be that way, but that doesn't change what it is currently.
Because of this, protests aren't just about shitposts or cat subreddits or whatever that anyone can find somewhere else or restart on the Fediverse. It's also about trying to force Reddit's hand into improving what there is so that the essential subreddits can continue (at least for now until a better alternative is created and folks have finished migrating there such as what r/blind has done).
I was part of a support group for people like me on Reddit. I still made the move. It’s time. I suggest those groups leave instructions on where to go.
You can find those kinds of helpful places on social media sites like Facebook too. That doesn't mean any of us want to go (back) there. Change, by definition, means that people are affected, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
Some people will stay there and become the "Boomers", some will move.
So the reason r/bind has already jumped to an alternative is because they are affected the most and the hardest.
The other kind of communities today that you mentioned are less impacted, so they can continue .. for now.
I do hope though that the right groups of people are looking into creating the better alternatives right now. The day may come when reddit decides these subs are too much of a liability - or even just not enough of a money maker - and yanks them. And there's no reason to believe that reddit would give them even as much warning as r/blind had.
Emphasizing not a suggestion to move right away, but make sure these places can start establishing backups so they don't exist solely at the whim of reddit.
start establishing backups so they don't exist solely at the whim of reddit.
This is the really essential point that I think bares repeating. Yes, these communities fill important roles, but that is EXACTLY why we should be pushing them on to other platforms.
They don't need to move entirely, but they should be trying to mirror themselves somewhere else.
Spez may not being going as power mad as Elon yet, but he's definitely looking over there, distracted boyfriend style.
The business side of things will churn along divorced from the content which will become ever more generic and culturally irrelevant. The users who stay on Reddit will be of the unadventurous variety, not inclined to make waves or analyze their habits.
To be fair, if it wasnt for the blackout it wouldnt have given me the motivation to finally move on to kbin. Im sure this will push others to do the same. If all it takes is to slowly dwindle the reddit user by doing the same thing then im all for it.
Of course, i do see why there shouod be more creative protests to switch things up and see what else works.
To be fair, if it wasnt for the blackout it wouldnt have given me the motivation to finally move on to kbin.
Absolutely same here. Because I use Mastodon a lot, I heard about kbin when it first came out, and poked over to look at it, but decided it was a bit too empty and rough around the edges, and stuck with Reddit. Then came the Blackout, and I went ahead and made an account.
As Reddit gets more enshittified and kbin and lemmy get more polished and active, we’ll start seeing a bigger shift.
Still sucks to leave a place you've invested so much time into, plenty of people have a decade worth of lurking, posting, upvoting etc. Not a great situation and I can understand people doing whatever they can to try and get a reasonable resolution
Absolutely. Personally, I have been part of Reddit only for a few months, and with the speed of adoption of alternatives you've mentioned, we will be perfectly fine in just a few months from now. By the way, /kbin looks awesome; I like the UI and overall speed.
Two reasons the ongoing Reddit protests are important:
the protests keep the pressure on reddit and can lead to ongoing news coverage (which also keeps the pressure on reddit) . Otherwise, reddit will be able to spin the narrative "see? we told you it would just blow over and it did"
kbin, Lemmy, and other alternatives aren't yet at the point where they're ready for millions of redditors. For example, the modCoord post makes the important point that a lot of reddit's moderation functionality isn't accessible ... but almost none of this functionality even exists yet on kbin and Lemmy. So most people aren't going to leave yet.
Don't get me wrong, leaving now is also a good option if you can find what you want elsewhere! But not everybody's there yet.
I think a LOT of folks overlook point 2. Kbin.social was a halting mess for a few days during the Blackout, because they had to enable Cloudflare to keep the servers from imploding on themselves. There still aren’t that many kbin instances yet, and more instances is how you handle large influxes. The platform needs time to stabilize before large groups of Redditors come over.
In 2016 I was coming out of a nasty depression. I wound up falling into a smaller subreddit and even became a ‘cool kid’ with a group of folks from it. We spun up a group chat and became very good friends - to the point of sharing our lives, meeting each other, and in my case - I started dating someone from the chat, and she moved halfway across the country to live with me. She is my forever person.
Last week, I was thinking about what had been lost in the 10+ years of comments and posts that I had either overwritten or deleted. So much of my life was shared there. And so much of my future will be determined by experiences there. I legitimately cried.
But change is inevitable, and we’ll always make the best of it.
I agree: migrating a community is really challenging. I'm a subreddit moderator myself, and when we were initially discussing this stuff, there was a lot of doubt because of how daunting the task is. Mods from other subs see the challenges as reason to not even try. However, I think it's important that people at least make the attempt given the current state of Reddit.
Something that I think people should keep in mind is that this stuff is gradual and doesn't have to happen all at once, especially since the alternatives aren't fully polished yet. Even just establishing a small, active community outside of Reddit (like people have been doing with all these fediverse communities) is a big win.
Some of the best things we can do right now are
providing feedback and suggestions for alternatives
making sure alternatives are approachable (/m/quickstart is great)
simply being active and providing stuff to do here
I think the best thing we can do is what we’re doing now - creating new spaces and communities over on kbin and Lemmy, while the platforms are making improvements. Right now, kbin isn’t really ready for a huge inrush - I love it, but it’s so very unfinished and not intuitive, and there are no third party apps (yes, you can use the website, yes, you can make an icon on your home screen that acts like an app; it is not the same. The mobile site is a mess). People fed up enough to leave Reddit will put up with a lot that most folks won’t. So let’s keep building up what’s being built here, and when people do get ready to leave, there’ll be an established, more polished place for them to come to.
Sites don’t usually die at once; it’s usually steady attrition. That’s what will happen to Reddit if they don’t get themselves sorted.
Absolutely. I do understand continuing the protesting after the first of the month, and I commend the participating moderators for their efforts. However building a new community and leaving Reddit behind is really the only feasible solution that impacts their site in the long run. Eventually those protesting moderators are going to either capitulate, or lose their positions. Reddit is not going to change this. They've dug in.
I've lurked on Reddit since the blackout, but I haven't participated. My comments are deleted and today is the last day I go there to browse (fitting as today is my cake day....RIP 11 years of Reddit). After the first of the month I'm going to see if any of my comments are restored, delete them and/or replace them with gibberish or corny quip, and then delete my account.
Happy Kake day 🍰 Happy Key lime pie day? Happy Klondike Bar day? Happy Kuchen day?
I still need my Reddit account to provide support to folks. But I've been deleting everything non-support related. Thousands of comments over the years. Reading back through some of them, I feel sad at the hours I put into some of the longer ones and the comradery and funnies... end of an era. Here's to a brighter future full of more comradery, interesting discussions and silly fun 🥂
some of those mods are likely thinking that moving would destroy the community they worked so hard to manage
they aren't wrong. It will massively deflate their community. That's an ineivtability of how lurkers on the internet work. They aren't there for community, they are there for easy passive browsing.
What can we do to help them transition?
"we" as in the common person? It won't be a fast track. There will need to be a steady supply of content for a certain topic, and a stream of discussion. Unfortunately the best way to help as a single person is to basically become that sweaty forever online person. The first step to the Network Effect is to generate enough content to engage with.
If "we" have developers or artists that can be one bigger step to help out. contribute to making apps and extensions to either bridge the gap or overcome current shortcomings of these federated instances. Even amongst techy communities there is a lot of confusion to how instances work. So some app to make it dead simple to browse and comment (while later allowing options for power users) is key. Sync committing to working with Lemmy/KBin is definietly a bit help.
Most of the rest is up to the instance admins. SEO, improving features, getting good moderatiors, etc. None of that is in out control, we can only give feedback
My feeling at this point is that spaz really just wants to check out. He knows, or perhaps has realized now that in the process he's going to kill his platform, but that's not an issue to him. Social networks go in cycles and maybe he saw some hint reddit was in the downturn, or maybe he just wants to take his money now while the value is still there.
He waited too long. Reddit was probably booming then. He should have ridden that high into an IPO and started the process in mid/late-2020 once WFH started taking off.
Spez definitely has "smartest guy in the room" vibes, you know the type, they think they're the smartest person in any given room, regardless of evidence.
He's openly praised Elon Musk'd cost-cutting measures at Twitter.
Spez genuinely seems to think that everything he does is good and right, and that users will come crawling back, because he thinks that his horrible, broken site is the only option for people to spend their time. It seems to be a combination of arrogance and entitlement.
That's the last stage of #enshittification : You've squeezed your "customers"/products and now you squeeze your 3rd parties in order to generate value for shareholders. That 2nd squeeze was booting 3rd party apps and hamstringing moderators. The value for shareholders is the increased ad views and spez reaps that during the IPO.
Oh I think he's clearly done with reddit and just wants the juicy IPO cash. There's no way he'd be happy to burn so many bridges with the community if that weren't the case.
To all the folks saying that reddit couldn't replace the mods, that it was too big an effort, that they couldn't run a big sub all by themselves, I have only one thing to say to you.
I'm sure users will step forward if they care. Otherwise, it's just a campaign optimization at work. Limit the breadth of organic content to deepen the brand-friendly content and push more paid media into the feed.
Im halfway tempted to start claiming demodded subs and filling them up with instructions on how to move to their kbin/lemmy alternatives.
If they kick me out and ban me I won't find out cause I don't go into reddit no more.
Edit: of course they would never give the subreddits to me, but I find the idea really funny
this would have been a good thing to do for some of the people who deleted their accounts. the ones who had accounts which could have credibly been given subs.
Admin realized that despite all the applications, there were:
People requesting the subreddit so they could continue the protests.
People requesting the subreddit so they could give it back to the original mods.
People requesting the subreddit so they could own it.
People requesting the subreddit because they have strong feelings about "moderation" and want to /worldpolitics it.
Absolutely no one who wanted to just do what the old mods did.
From what I could see, there no actual good-faith requests from people who genuinely cared about /TIHI and wanted to moderate it well and diligently. And like, who's surprised? It's a huge subreddit without a concrete community core, it's more of a content category. I don't think anyone except the mods cared about the community itself, because there barely was one.
That's the same issue they're running into with the other large subs. They're too huge and too general and everyone is just another face in the crowd, so there are very few people who care about that specific space in the way that makes for good volunteer moderators - in most cases, when those people existed for those communities, they were already recruited into the old mod team.
And all the people who want to mod are either activists for the protest, the sort of power-hungry weirdos that end up as powermods, but who showed up to Reddit too late, or somebody with an axe to grind about moderation in general seeing an opportunity in the massive unmoderated subreddit.
If I had to guess, there are too many users who would become appointed as moderators, then just shut down the subreddit again. The admins need time to filter through the applications to find the genuine bootlickers.
Yeah I fully expect reddit to replace the moderators but it will take time and effort to select the right people.
If all the mods who protested actually resigned or moved their subs to being unmoderated it would've crippled the site, reddit would not be able to replace them quick enough.
It's unfortunate that the threat alone was enough to get most of them to reopen.
From the one time I tried requesting a sub there, they don’t just let someone have a sub if they ask and it’d be banned otherwise, they probably won’t give it to you if you don’t have mod experience for example (the reason I didn’t get the niche sub I was trying to revive, which is reasonable enough), or if they feel that what experience you do have isn’t enough that you’d likely be able to handle the particular sub. TIHI is a big sub, so they’d not just be looking for any random volunteer, it’d have to be someone experienced with moderating sizable subs, probably. And those people are, well, exactly the kind of people angry with reddit right now.
Reddit gave the snackexchange subreddit to someone who had no mod experience and hadn't participated in the sub for years. The person claims they didn't even ask for the position and only asked for the head mod to be removed. Reddit removed the top mod and made the person top mod.
they gave it to someone who wants to implement a system of collecting government ID from participants and tracking their activities. very cool, I’m sure the kind of weirdos who like to mail each other snacks will happily scan their drivers license and send them to this person. no problemo.
That person had effectively no mod experience, but was already on the moderator list there - having been added by the old team.
Head mod chose to reopen under protest by turning off anti-scam bots and similar - letting sub continue to function visibly the same, but without the bot-supported protection it had used prior. He somehow talked his way onto the team during the protests, and then went to Admin and arranged to oust the head mod who had shut down the bots and was doing protest stuff in the sub.
He has since been returned to the bottom of the mod hierarchy there, for whatever that's worth.
Like, I kind of get that guy's point in some senses - simply turning off security features that quietly protect users, without announcing it, sure seems like the kind of thing that would hurt users pretty quick - without ever affecting site Admin. Especially when the head mod who shut down those bots wasn't the user/mod who was responsible for them, it's not 'their' bot if they're gonna go home and take their toys, as it were.
Staging a coup and getting Admin to put him at the top of the modlist is hyper shitty, and Admin's decision to promote someone who wasn't really part of that community to that sort of position is utterly inexplicable if we were trying to square their actions with their stated values.
I would drop kick FB in a heart beat if it wasn't for that shitty platform being my only means of communication with some family and friends. WTF happened to email and phone calls/txt jesus.
I wish I could do that. But I'm disabled which is isolating by itself but also makes maintaining friendships difficult let alone making new friends.
So unfortunately the few friends I do have are firmly entrenched in FB and I have little recourse to make more friends. They're good people. Genuinely good people so I don't want to ditch them anyway, they've just been wicked into social media addiction and entrapment the same way many have been.
Yes they most definitely will...but increasingly such things likely will not happen on the Reddit platform, moving forward. There are actual reasons that the mods left - e.g. to moderate a sub of millions of subscribers takes effort, which needs tools to make that happen - and those reasons still exist.
Ever since Victoria got sacked, reddit doesn’t seem to have anyone competent enough to run community relation anymore. They probably can’t figure out how to vet new mods if they were to hire some.
I'm guessing it's because it's a week after 3rd party apps shut down. A lot will change when that happens, and the 7th is far enough from the 30th to feel it.
The 3rd party apps are closing at the end of this month, which means there'll be somewhere around a week or so of people realising just how bad the official app is, plus decreased quality content as the actually-motivated people who post things continue their gradual migration away from reddit and driving redditors to seek other places to gather.
I have to wait 3 seconds to load a post. Collapsing a comment is laggy, takes like 0.5 seconds at least. Scrolling itself is laggy.
It sure doesn't seem like a lot when I write seconds but it's absolutely TERRIBLE when you use it more than a minute. I only have official app for chat and instant messages because Infinity didn't send me any notifications :( I'll use old reddit on mobile with an extension that helps with mobile usage, along with official reddit for the aforementioned functions as usual.
Yup. I'm Anarch157a everywhere (except Mastodon, for reasons), Steam, Lemmy, Discord, etc. Having my old - now deleted - Reddit account as a bot could spill over my identity in other services.
I haven't deleted mine yet because there are still comments I'd like to edit that are currently in private subreddits. Only when I'm sure everything I've ever said on reddit is now the same text urging people to abandon reddit in favor of the fediverse will I delete the account itself.
Meanwhile all of the repost bots can post and comment on each other’s threads keeping the Reddit server humming away.
How are they going to do that when the API changes hit? The API changes affect all third party interactions with Reddit unless you scrape their HTML or do some type of browser automation. I'm going to assume that 99% of developers are using the REST API since there was no reason to do otherwise. That means mobile apps, bots, third party tools and probably even some browser extensions are all going to go dark.
They will be fine. But the extension itself is on its last legs. Reddit is slowly breaking old reddit by making features or markdown new reddit only. The team also seems to be down to 2 people and the project is in maintenance mode.
The API charges are only when an Auth key is used over a certain threshold. Most bots are going to be fine, it’s just the few of them that were operating above that threshold.
3rd party apps are being killed because they use their own API Auth key for essentially everybody. One considered solution was having each user generate their own key and input it, but when a dev asked admins about that, they said it wasn’t allowed.
A lonely guy playing a creepy hentai game gets some sexual gratification from his time spent interacting with a piece of software and is at least somewhat self-aware. He knows it's just software, even if he 'married' his bodypillow.
Meanwhile there are increasing numbers of people unaware they're regularly interacting with bots online, not realising one of the reasons social media is making them sadder is because they've atttempting to fulfill their need for social interaction with a facsimile thereof.
It's not unlike Idiocracy, where they give the plants Brawndo instead of water, then wonder why the plants are dying. Vast swathes of the world are feeding their social needs with social media brawndo.
Also you’re blaming the medium, rather than the malicious actors.
If AI text generative technology was around a century earlier you’d have people being penpals or print newspaper write-ins with a bot instead. Communicating through text is inherently risky, so best to blame the people who abuse that fact instead.
The medium structures and drives the interactions. Decisions about the medium are amplified in effect. (Some) people have always been bad, but what they do and what effect it has varies with the medium.
People will come, it's just a matter of time and having the patience to cultivate organic communities rather than trying to simply will them into existence all at once a la GooglePlus (or whatever their attempt at a social network was called)
You either haven't been on the internet long enough to recognize this very common slippery slope, or you do recognize it - and you're rooting for the slope.
Way back in the way back we used to call comments like that “flame baiting”. It’s trying to start a fight, nothing more. Forums and BBs I moderated used to technically ban it, but generally the rule has always just been “don’t feed the trolls”. Meaning: don’t comment, don’t downvote, don’t bother reporting. They just want attention, the only thing that hurts them is realizing that this board will ignore them just as completely as their parents already do in real life.
Yes. Back then there wasn't any upvoting or downvoting, so the only way you interacted with a troll is either engage them or ignore them...preferably the latter.
better yet - create whole sections of lemmy devoted to trolls and their fun times. this is the best answer. it also helps ensure that lemmy can never be sold or made profitable. thus avoiding the horrible dying mess that is reddit.
Harassment, hate speech, or any other form of harmful behavior will not be tolerated.
Now, I can't read ernest's mind to determine what he meant by this line exactly, but this kind of mean spirited, bad-faith jab falls under "harmful behaviour" in my book.
i think it's dangerous to be too broad with this definition
harmful in my mind is saying explicitly racist, homophobic, promoting violent, etc type of stuff
i think freedom of expression is something we should not give up easily. in actually harmful speech, i think the pros outweigh the cons. but him saying the word "triggered" is not harmful
but him saying the word "triggered" is not harmful
It implies that being against hate speech and harassment is a wrong opinion and while completely isolated and out of context it might not seem harmful, it's part of a cultural shift towards normalizing those things, and implies that anyone who cares is wrong. Seeing that go unchallenged just emboldens buttholes like that.
If you want to be neck deep in that bullshit, you're more than welcome to join exploding-heads.com. Can we have ONE space online that isn't infiltrated by assholes?
You don't have to be a dick to others on the Internet. You can make that choice. Just because you CAN post hateful shit anonymously and not have to face real life consequences doesn't mean you HAVE to.
Some people literally would prefer to see the world burn. No idea what’s up with that form of psychological gratification from destruction, but fuck them.
You’ve got it. Its out-groups are highly isolated, through a combination of downvoting and en masse automatic sub-bans based on guilt-by-association. Naturally they’re nowhere to be seen on the front page either.
I was on Reddit for over 10 years and it only became a place for niche communities when they got rid of defaults. Kbin/Fediverse will get there in a few years.
On top of that, we can't expect communities to POOF into existence.
We have to be part of them to build them, which means making them if they don't exist yet as well as posting and commenting in the ones that do exist. I hope that people who are used to lurking on Reddit will go out of their comfort zone a bit and start to participate in fediverse communities so that we can build things up more quickly.
What is the consensus on the etiquette of creating new communities/magazines with the names of the still extant old subreddits (particularly when you're not a mod of the old subreddit)?
Reddit doesn’t own these communities. The members do. Inasmuch these mods are interested in helping or were complicit in making Reddit a toxic place should be for the new communities to decide.
I've seen some magazines put a note in their description that the owner is willing to hand it off to the mod team of the corresponding subreddit. I think that's a decent compromise in order to welcome the old subreddit to migrate over and maintain continuity, while also not waiting around for other people to act.
I would suggest using great care in accepting new mods coming from Reddit. Do look at their history with their community and what they shaped the community into.
I'm not really sure... but the way I see it it's probably fair game.
Communities aren't something that somebody (reddit, specific moderators, etc.) owns, they are just concepts that people latch onto. And, for me at least, I would rather see popular communities exist here if people want them to, especially since you can have multiple communities under the exact same name on different servers in the fediverse.
In other words, if you want to bring over a specific reddit community I think you should just do it.
Yea I was a prolific commenter but I think I only created maybe 6-8 posts in 14 years on reddit, and certainly never created a community. So I might have to step up. Regardless of reddit, I absolutely love the idea of the fediverse and the decentralized nature of it, so I really would like to see it succeed. It really does have to be the way forward on the internet to avoid corporate interests.
Same. I think we need some way to coordinate the initial burst of content for some of the smaller subs. I hate to say it, but maybe we need to assign "homework" - Request (not require) new subscribers to contribute unique stories or info relevant to the mag/comm on some type of schedule.
Something like:
"As we try to grow this new community, we want to hear from you. We're asking (not requiring) all new subscribers to start a new post within their first week covering some aspect of the topic they find personally interesting or that they feel could help others. Just add "(1P)" to the title of the post. It doesn't matter if it's something you said elsewhere, if you're new to the entire topic and just want to post a bunch of questions, you have a funny story to tell, or have a super niche specialty.
Also, we should consider having more moderator-level users in subs to reduce the burden of moderation. It's more daunting if you're asked to be one of 3 mods than it is to be one of 15. We should also look into incentivizing moderation duties, but there's probably a much longer discussion to be had about that.
This sounds like a great tradition to encourage and support. On Reddit I was pretty danged chatty & responsive, but almost never started my own post. Maybe at most once a year. I hereby commit to upping my participation game to include some actual posts to some of the quiet magazines I've subbed to. Thanks for the push.
And YOUR exuberance has inspired me to commit to upping my post game. I was never a big poster on Reddit, but mostly because I just didn't want to deal with the contrarian and amateur professionals fallout. It might be best to focus on the niche communities, since that's where the real valuable stuff exists on Reddit.
Hello i hope you dont mind if i post that post, in case someone does not want to go onto reddit:
r/Save3rdPartyApps
u/attackofmilk
Subreddits are starting to see spam from anti-protest, pro-admin ChatGPT bots
Thread on /r/Pics discussing bot spam. (Pics is now NSFW, but this thread is only profanity / vulgarity.)
/r/pics/comments/14puynz/chatgpt_bots_are_spamming_proadmin_astroturf/
/r/Programming closed (by admins?) after community recognition of bot spam:
Reddit Migration
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