Biden Condemns Trump as Dire Threat to Democracy in a Blistering Speech

President Biden on Friday delivered a ferocious condemnation of Donald J. Trump, his likely 2024 opponent, warning in searing language that the former president had directed an insurrection and would aim to undo the nation’s bedrock democracy if he returned to power.

On the eve of the third anniversary of the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol by Mr. Trump’s supporters, Mr. Biden framed the coming election as a choice between a candidate devoted to upholding America’s centuries-old ideals and a chaos agent willing to discard them for his personal benefit.

“There’s no confusion about who Trump is or what he intends to do,” Mr. Biden warned in a speech at a community college not far from Valley Forge in Pennsylvania, where George Washington commanded troops during the Revolutionary War. Exhorting supporters to prepare to vote this fall, he said: “We all know who Donald Trump is. The question is: Who are we?”

In an intensely personal address that at one point nearly led Mr. Biden to curse Mr. Trump by name, the president compared his rival to foreign autocrats who rule by fiat and lies. He said Mr. Trump had failed the basic test of American leaders, to trust the people to choose their elected officials and abide by their decisions.

“We must be clear,” Mr. Biden said. “Democracy is on the ballot. Your freedom is on the ballot.”

Archive

RainfallSonata, (edited )

“We all know who Donald Trump is. The question is: Who are we?”

I posted the following elsewhere, just before I read that he said this, as I was thinking about a quote I heard earlier from DL Hughley regarding Trump’s election:

“America saw exactly who it was last night… Exactly who we are,” Hughley said. “I think Obama was what we aspire to be, Trump and his supporters are who we are.”

The Democrats’ problem is that they don’t address who we are. They offer only aspirations. Who are we (beyond the racists and fascists Trump and his supporters represent)? Broke. Sick. Overworked. Exploited. Isolated. Scared. He wants us to vote based on hope that we can push back fascism. Hope that we can win our rights back. He wants us to vote based on some dream of democracy I can’t say I’ve ever witnessed in my lifetime. Give me someone to vote for who’s going to meet us where we are.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

“I think Obama was what we aspire to be”

People give Obama way too much credit, but that’s how far great oratory skills will get you as president. He ruled as a conservative and was solidly in the corner of the billionaires, just like every president since Reagan.

Rusticus,

This. Common folk haven’t had a president since Carter, and that didn’t go well. Ruling class is called that for a reason. We need more anti-corporatism (aka Boston Tea Party).

Tinidril,

Obama was practically the platonic ideal of the perfect neoliberal president. He said all the right words, checked all the right boxes, and effortlessly combined warmth and charm with an air of stern authority. He was, in all likelihood, the best neoliberal president we will ever get. Neoliberalism is clearly not enough.

It’s time for the Democratic party to stop pretending they can serve the elites while paying lip service to the proles. In a rational world, the proles would have no option. Democrats are not their friends, but they will never be as bad as Republicans. But it’s not a rational world, and fascism thrives with the disaffected masses. When faced with the choice between “bad” and “worse”, “worse” is far more attractive than it should be.

douglasg14b,
@douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

It’s crazy to me that people actually consider it a choice.

Take everything that you dislike about Biden and then apply it all to Trump and then add on fascism and destruction of democracy on top of it.

There’s nothing to gain there, would Trump do any better with Israel? Hell no. We all know where he stands, in any way he can personally benefit from it at the cost of literally anyone else he will.

Tinidril,

Disenfranchised people don’t value the current system. People in general tend to be extremely myopic. Trump was a molotov cocktail thrown at the current system. The Democrats foisting Biden on the country was a clear response of “we don’t hear you”.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

There’s nothing to gain there

I imagine most wager earners couldn’t care less about Israel, and it’s silly to me to pretend that that is the important issue here. Most Americans are seeing their money losing value thanks to runaway inflation, working multiple jobs. or dealing with skyrocketing energy and grocery bills. The scarcity of housing is accelerating as well.

Yes, Trump won’t do anything to fix those issues either, but he doens’t have to. He just has to point out Biden’s shitty record and cast himself as the candidate of change, the same way he did in 2016.

People aren’t going to care that he’s a fascist.

PedroMaldonado,

WE ALL SAW WHAT TRUMP DID ON JAN 6

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

He reminded people to be peaceful and refrain from violence?

twitter.com/…/1346912780700577792

dangblingus,

Hours after he told them to go to the Capitol building and “fight like hell”.

JustARaccoon,

He said that on twitter, while advocating for insurrection in a live speech. If he cared that much he would’ve gone on a public speech too, but that would’ve actually been heard by the target demographic

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Sorry, but that’s misinformation. He also said it in his speech, but they left that part out at the impeachment trial.

SoleInvictus,
@SoleInvictus@lemmy.world avatar

Classic Trump supporter here, posting sources that contradict their point as supporting their point because, out of eight statements, one weakly suggested peace while the other seven weakly suggested insurrection.

This is how con men win over the critical thinking challenged crowd.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Right, because critical thinking equals defending the majority opinion.

SoleInvictus, (edited )
@SoleInvictus@lemmy.world avatar

Critical thinking means reading an article with one point that agrees with your stance and seven points that contradict it and realizing it doesn’t actually support your argument.

Critical thinking means you question what you read, hear, think, write, and say. If you were capable of critical thought, you’d have read your previous comment and realized it doesn’t actually address my comment at all. It just makes an unrelated point. But you’re not capable of even primary school level feats of cognition yet you still vote, and people like you are why American democracy is circling the drain. You just. Don’t. Think.

dangblingus,

Bro. You’re in the minority here, and you’ve made bad takes on every subthread. I don’t have the energy to argue with you. You’re on a predominantly leftist social media platform. No one here agrees with you.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Yes, please do tell me how you really feel about minorities.

JustARaccoon,

Did you read the entire page?

Those were not his only directions to the crowd, however. In the same speech, he also used the following phrases while encouraging people to head to the Capitol and protest his election loss, according to the transcript and video of the speech:

  • “We will stop the steal.”
  • “We will not let them silence your voices.”
  • “You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”
  • “We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing.”
  • “We’re going to try and give [lawmakers] the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”
  • “We’re going to have to fight much harder.” “We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Which of these statements strikes you as more of an incitement to violence, than, say, “I just don’t even know why there aren’t uprisings all over the country.” or “This is a movement, I’m telling you, they’re not going to stop, and everyone beware, because they’re not going to stop before Election Day in November, and they’re not going to stop after Election Day. And everyone should take note of that, on both levels, that they’re not going to let up, and they should not, and we should not.”?

dangblingus,

Neither. You’re looking for controversy or “muh hypocrisy” where it doesn’t exist.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

So you’re saying there’s no objective standard for what consists incitement of violence, it’s just a matter of what’s politically expedient.

sock,

id like to piggy back, youre really stupid and i hate you. i have no extra argument as everyone has shown you everything you need to see its obvious you treat reality like religion where your opinion intrinsically holds truth.

the best part of reality is despite what you want to believe, trump still incited violence and insurrection. your opinion on the matter doesnt change the reality. this isnt christianity this is real life.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

I’m sorry you feel that way. Must be rough.

EatATaco,

Yeah, seriously, one time he told everyone to remain peaceful. That totally contradicts every other time he almost explicitly called for violence! And certainly, he didn’t want it to happen, because as we all saw he swooped in immediately when they started to attacking the capitol to tell them to stop, instead of disappearing for an hour and a half.

Stop being such an easily fooled sheep. The proof is in the pudding: his cultists who were in the capitol that day nearly universally said they were there because Trump wanted them to be there. From their own fucking mouths, and you’re still trying to maintain that Trump wasn’t instrumental in making that happen.

Snapz,

They’ll sacrifice their lives for a person who is demonstrably the actual biggest loser in history, and he just gets more loser-y, folks, okay… If any of you are starting to have your memories fade, here’s a quick refresher to read this morning and then copy and send to your aunt karen in Missouri.

  • 0 re-elections won
  • 1 term president
  • 2 times impeached
  • 3 marriages
  • 4 inch lifts in his shoes
  • 5 kids, from 3 different mothers
  • 6 bankruptcies
  • 7 US Capitol police suing him for Jan 6 terrorist insurrection and murder of police
  • 8 trillion + dollars added to the US debt in a single term
  • 9 trump lawyers sanctioned by federal judge for lying in frivolous election fraud lawsuits and ordered to pay defendant’s legal fees
  • 10 years that trump paid $0 in income taxes between 2000 and 2015. ($0 to cops, teachers, roads, prisons, disaster relief, etc)
  • 11 trump associates charged with serious crimes over the past 5 years
  • 12 million votes (the big lie) - trump claims he won the 2020 election by 12 million votes when in reality, he lost by about 7 million votes.
  • 13 of August, 2021 - one of multiple days that trump was supposed to magically become president again according to Qanon and a crack addicted pillow salesman (the two most respected information sources in the gop)
  • 14 year old girl in a youth choir that trump approached in 1992 to say, "Wow! Just think - in a couple years I’ll be dating you."
  • 15 originally confirmed cases of COVID in the US trump said would soon be, “down to close to zero.” followed by, “like a miracle, it will disappear.” - over 1,000,000 Americans have since died of COVID and it continues to kill 4 years later.
  • 16 years old - age of daughter ivanka when she hosted “miss teen” pageant and, according to long time trump associate Noel Casler, "trump called her over in the middle of a rehearsal and had her give him a lap dance while he leered at the crew."
  • 17 known trump and russia investigations from local, state and federal prosecutors
  • 18 gop senators that ignored trump threats / warnings and supported Biden admin’s infrastructure bill.
  • 19 as in COVID19 - trump was verified as the single largest source of disinformation on the virus, with a Cornell study claiming that 38% of the “misinformation conversation” originated with trump
  • 20 the day in January, 2021, when Biden was sworn in despite trump inciting a violent insurrection to stop election verification at the US Capitol.
  • 21 gun salute that trump ordered for himself when he left office after a humiliating defeat, even though he never served in the military, famously called military members “losers” and “suckers” and actively avoided the draft with a cowardly “bone spurs” excuse.
  • 22 date in August, 2021, when Alabama hate rally crowd booed trump for finally saying people should get vaccinated, only after 700,000 Americans have died due mostly to his failure as president
  • 23 as in wrestlemania 23 in 2007 where trump, a cartoon level failure with no other prospects, participated in a fake bet that a proxy wrestler would win a fake fight on his behalf or he would shave his wig and hair plugs off.
  • 24 day in August, 2021, when trump actually filed a lawsuit in Florida court against YouTube, a private company, demanding that they reinstate his YouTube channel like a desperate, irrelevant embarrassment with no platforms left to abuse.
  • 25 plus credible sexual assault allegations against trump, spanning decades and with accusers starting as young as 13 years old at time of assault.
MaxVoltage,
@MaxVoltage@lemmy.world avatar

amazing copy spaghetti

badbytes,

Not sure we will have a 2024 election, unless supreme Court rules on status of Presidential immunity. Biden may just stay in office.

doctorcrimson,

That’s not how it works. Even if the GOP doesn’t produce a candidate in a handful of states for no reason other than incompetence, then people will still vote and either choose the DNC candidate or use the Write In option on the ballot.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

“You can’t be pro-insurrectionist and pro-American.”

The United States were literally founded on an insurrection.

jwt,

Not sure what point you’re trying to make. Back then they couldn’t be pro-insurrectionist and pro-Britain; you can’t be pro-something you want to revolt against.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

The point is that being American is being anti-government.

dangblingus,

Ever hear of “taxation without representation”?

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

If you live in DC you deserve getting screwed.

jwt,

Weird how it’s been going on for a quarter of a millennium then.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Yes, and all without any major incidents like assassinations or revolution attempts either /s

jwt,

Are you still making blanket statements about ‘being American’? Because you make it sound like Americans are a bunch of failing losers with your last statement if you are.

Rusticus,

You need to learn more about the Boston tea party. Being American originally meant being anti-corporatism. And Trump is definitely pro-corporatism.

MacNCheezus,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Right, that’s why every major corporation out there has been donating to his campaign.

Oh wait…

blazeknave,

Super PACs big dog. Citizens United. You have no idea who they’re buying. Free speech baby!

Cannacheques,

Just tell him to go home because he’s drunk on stage lol

crsu,
@crsu@lemmy.world avatar

Trump sucks but lets not pretend Biden isn’t an amalgamation of weapons contractors and ruthless capitalists pulling his puppet strings. We can do better than 100 year old presidents that won’t be here when they ruin tomorrow

dangblingus,

Well, there are no better candidates lined up for 2024 so actually the USA can’t vote for better this go round.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Biden was ruining things when he was younger too. He pushed the crime bill and pushed to make student loans non-dischargeable through bankruptcy. However he’s now forgiven since he pardoned a small fraction of the prisoners he helped imprison and forgave a small fraction of the student loans he helped build up. Most progressive president in modern US history!!!1

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

you are doing great

rckclmbr,

Nobody is saying Biden is great, I agree we could do better. So stop with the whataboutism. If it weren’t against Trump, there might be more tradeoffs to talk about. But right now it’s pretty much “anyone but Trump”

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Any other poorly-applied buzzwords like “whataboutism” you’d like to apply? It doesn’t stop with trump. Before trump was bush, and the message was “we gotta stop bush”. It’s not a “just this time” sort of deal. Democrats will keep promoting the shittiest candidates and then say that we must vote them in because the alternative is worse. It doesn’t end.

Honytawk,

When one of the candidates claims they will be a dictator then any other candidate will automatically be better.

The moral gap between the candidates has never been wider.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvUEsm0wNIA

This is nothing new.

rckclmbr,

Whataboutism isn’t a buzzword, it’s a logical fallacy. Its exactly what you are saying, “what about Biden though!” while completely ignoring the point being discussed, which is that we want an alternative to trump

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

It is a buzzword because people like you misuse the hell out of it. I wasn’t even the one who brought up biden, I was responding to a post that talked about him. It’s like you’ve never had a conversation with a human before. Conversations can involve more than one laser-point-focused subject.

Rusticus,

Name another president since Carter that is more progressive. We’ll wait.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

I’m waiting too, because democrats won’t let one get through.

Rusticus,

So you’re complaining about Biden but admit he’s the most progressive president in 50 years. Sounds about on brand for progressives.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

No one is denying that biden is the most progressive president that will democrats will allow through, so it’s not much of an admission. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. That you’re satisfied with a bar so low that it reaches into the core of the Earth sounds about on brand for a diehard democrat such as yourself.

Rusticus,

I’m not a democrat and I’m certainly not a huge fan of Biden. But he’s not demented and he’s the best president for progressives in 50 years. Yet progressives act like there is no difference between Biden and Trump. The reason you’re not getting a reasonable progressive candidate/president is that nothing is ever good enough for progressives.

rez_doggie,

Fuckin do something about it. Lock his ass up in the name of homeland security.

EatATaco,

Luckily, and despite what Trump keeps whining about, the POTUS can’t have people locked up. The courts are doing their job, as they should in a democracy. Calling for the POTUS to ignore the law, like a tyrant, in order to protect the democracy from tyranny is not a good look.

rez_doggie,

If it were me or you we would be locked up pending trial. Don’t give me excuses

Suavevillain,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

The “Saving Democracy” messaging is not going to reach people at all. Also, not being Trump is not good enough also. This is going to be rough if Democracy rests on the shoulders of the current leader enabling genocide.

Kage520,

You say that like Trump would not have enabled genocide in Ukraine

mrnotoriousman,

Lemmy doesn't care about Ukraine anymore. Half the people on here are on some moral high horse like there is a chance that the US wouldn't be supporting Israel if someone else was in power. Not that it's okay I think we shouldn't be sending shit there or supporting what they are doing at all but that's reality of the situation.

pope,

So true

dangblingus,

I mean, speak for yourself. Plenty of people care about Ukraine, there’s just no controversy there other than Putin being an asshole. But there’s no legitimate wing of American political discourse that is pro-Putin. It’s just completely obvious that he’s the bad guy and the propaganda never worked wholesale on the American population that he was a good guy. Israeli propaganda has been much more effective on creating a false dichotomy of opinion.

mrnotoriousman,

But there’s no legitimate wing of American political discourse that is pro-Putin.

You must not be American because if you were you'd know the GOP is very much pro-putin and behind holding up further aid for Ukraine.

dangblingus,

It should be enough. But I fear that you’re right. Everyone here is pretty much on the same page, but Lemmy does not represent the average voter mentality in America.

AutistoMephisto,
@AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I detest loudly what is happening to the Palestinians. But people like you are willing to let their own nation fall into fascism for people half a world away. Letting Trump win will absolutely not help the Palestinians, and in fact could make things worse as a Trump-led administration tells the IDF, “Hey, need any help slaughtering civilians?”

Suavevillain,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

This nation has fallen into fascism way before Trump. This nation is built on it. Arms dealer nation full of psychopaths who enabled the lesser of two evils until they got two choices of genocide on the ballot. It isn’t harm reduction for the people who are already dead. Better put that energy into getting Biden to stop losing to a man calling himself a dictator.

AutistoMephisto, (edited )
@AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world avatar

So just let the world burn? Take the Black Pill and succumb to the end of the world? The end of all we know? The end of us? Coward. Raise your head and scream out against oblivion, cry out in defiance of fate. Where’s your rage, your anger? You choose to go silently into that cold dark night, I however will go down kicking and screaming.

dtjones,

I’ve been having the same thoughts. I think liberals, especially white liberals, are scared of a Trump presidency because, for once, the fallout might come down on them. They don’t have to be scared of a Biden presidency, because their lives can continue on as they have been. So then they attack you for saying that the US is already a fascist state, even though it already is for anyone who isn’t white and straight.

Anomaline,

Uhh

Please do not invoke my rights as an excuse to let Trump take away more of my rights. What the fuck.

dtjones,

This comment is so shitty and condescending and completely devoid of intelligence. It reads the same as “Please do not invoke my white privilege as an excuse to let Trump take away my white privilege.” Liberals love to act like they care about issues but comments like these come off so self-centered. I don’t live in some fantasy world where a second Trump presidency is better than a second Biden presidency, but liberals are so adamant that it has to be Biden. Why aren’t liberals outraged that the DNC is forcing an unpopular candidate down our throats again? The most common response I see is “it’s complicated” but it’s not fucking complicated in the slightest, liberals just want to be comfortable and they’ll gladly roll over and take it from anyone who promises them to at least use lube. Yes I’m talking about you.

Suavevillain,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

You get it. Most of the saving of democracy comes down to being comfortability and not actual democracy or even fixing systematic issues. The saving democracy has terms and conditions anyway depending on who you are. My black experience isn’t the same as theirs. I could vote for Biden and he still would increase police funding like he did last time.

BreakDecks,

Not being Trump is the best you’re going to get. I guess you’ll just have to choose if the guy you vote for to destroy Palestine also plans to destroy the USA.

Suavevillain,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

People should just brace for the worst outcome. Biden losing to someone saying “Day 1 Dictator” is pretty crazy but extremely possible. Trump is good at framing things being better under his run, and people care about their material needs being met.

AutistoMephisto,
@AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world avatar

Because that’s how fascists work. They make chaos, then bill themselves as the solution to that chaos.

kent_eh,

Trump is good at framing things being better under his run, and people care about their material needs being met.

Too bad those same people can’t see how severely they’re being lied to by Trump.

hark,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Exactly. People will see this so-called “democracy” and wonder if it’s even worth saving. The only choices we’re given are if we want things to get worse slower or faster.

SoleInvictus,
@SoleInvictus@lemmy.world avatar

I fear part of the issue is many United States citizens either know or indirectly understand that the United States already isn’t fully a democracy anymore.

verdantbanana,
@verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

democracynow.org/…/green_partys_jill_stein_cheri_…

“President Biden on Friday delivered a ferocious condemnation of Donald J. Trump, his likely 2024 opponent, warning in searing language that the former president had directed an insurrection and would aim to undo the nation’s bedrock democracy if he returned to power.”

dude has someone chained to chair to keep her from participating in American democracy but somehow he is a defender of democratic values

“We must be clear,” Mr. Biden said. “Democracy is on the ballot. Your freedom is on the ballot.”

we lost rights with you as president and with trump and with obama such as voting rights some are not allowed to vote and some states tell you who is going to be on the ballot or not restricting choices

jill stein said it better

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Stein

Stein stated during the 2016 campaign that the Democratic and Republican parties are “two corporate parties” that have converged into one. Concerned by the rise of neofascism internationally and the rise of neoliberalism within the Democratic Party, she has said, “The answer to neofascism is stopping neoliberalism. Putting another Clinton in the White House will fan the flames of this right-wing extremism. We have known that for a long time, ever since Nazi Germany.”

Anomaline,

I figured people would’ve learned from the elections involving folks like Nader and Stein, but I guess here we go again.

verdantbanana,
@verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

me too

when someone says something progressive and wants to do something for the citizens everybody yells that is too far do baby steps

Honytawk,

The conservatives do, not everyone.

citizen,

“Democracy is on the ballot. Your freedom is on the ballot”

Indeed, vote out these two geezers from the government

Tinidril,

I share your objective, but how. The third party approach has been a complete and total failure, and the spoiler effect makes it dangerous. Pushing the Democrats left has achieved at least some minor wins. Third parties have had none.

“But if people just voted third party…”. Great, you found a political strategy that can win, provided that the majority of voters do as their told. If we had that kind of unified engagement, any strategy would win.

citizen,

Voting for a third party will push red and blue to change more than asking them kindly. As soon as a third party start to get attention red and blue even if still in power will have to go in damage mode not to lose all their voters.

Tinidril,

Third parties are not a new concept. Just like the two parties, they have a track record we can look at. This has never happened. Bernie Sanders has pushed the Democrats further left than anyone since FDR, and he only started to make substantive gains when he ran as a Democrat.

If you want to claim that third parties can achieve anything at all, it’s on you to explain what changed. The track record is abysmal.

citizen,

Go ahead and vote for a fascist or a genocide supporter then. I’m sure this will turn out good and the two party will change its policies because someone on social media is reacting with angry emojis

Rusticus,

Agreed. You are getting downvoted by all the Russian and Chinese (and idiot Americans) that just want to foment division. Democracy is on the ballot. Just not the way most people think.

EatATaco,

Voting for a third party will push red and blue to change more than asking them kindly.

Actually, it’s probably the exact opposite. They want fewer people actually involved in the election, because then they need to convince fewer people to vote for them in order to win. If you effectively remove yourself from the voting pool, by voting for someone who can’t win, you are basically making it so they don’t have to court you, not that they will.

Even if you managed to get a third party elected, it would just revert back to two parties very rapidly. This is the nature of a FPTP voting system. This is not something you can do top down by flipping a switch. It’s gotta go the other way. Work on your local elections.

citizen,

Go ahead and vote for a fascist or a genocide supporter and remember for the rest of your days that you voted for it

EatATaco,

Even if I were to agree with this and I could oversimplify it to this one thing, under the current situation my vote is only meaningful if I choose one of the two. And there is a lot more at stake than a policy difference over support for Israel.

So how the rest of my days play out will not be affected at all by my choice to support Biden in the upcoming presidential election.

You, however, seem blinded by anger. Your third party vote on principle will unlikely free you from this anger. Maybe it’s time to look elsewhere.

citizen,

So how the rest of my days play out will not be affected at all by my choice to support Biden in the upcoming presidential election.

Sounds like you are lucky enough not to live in africa, western europe, south america or the middle east otherwise you would taste the consequences of voting for a fascist or a genocide supporter first hand under live bullets.

Sound like you are also not really smart because you fail to realize that the moment your country stop being governed by corrupted politicians in bed with billionares and warlords, public money and the economy would spin in favor of people and not evil corporations exploiting workers and the environment for more profits.

EatATaco,

because you fail to realize

The fact that you think you were able to infer the rest of the paragraph from what I’ve said proves that, despite how dumb I am, I’m still light years more intelligent than you.

citizen,

i could be a savage living in jungle, the moment you support voting for a fascist or a genocide supporter you have no right to call yourself smart at all.

EatATaco,

i could be a savage living in jungle

If I were a betting man, it would be a very safe bet that if we just selected a “savage” out of the jungle at random, they would be more intelligent than you. I would even give you 3-2 odds.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Yikes

EatATaco,

Voting third party is not really a viable strategy until we change the FPTP voting system. You aren’t going to fix this by attempting to vote for a third party in the upcoming presidential election. If you want change in the system, you have to start from the bottom and work in local elections and then state elections to get them to change the voting system. Then we can have viable multiple parties. But this “we can vote out the POTUS in the next election!” is theoretically possible, but it’s also painfully naive in reality.

citizen,

is theoretically possible, but it’s also painfully naive in reality.

In reality is just as easy as putting a vote on a third party

dangblingus,

Sure, just get 175 million other people to think exactly like you and you’ll have your new political system.

citizen,

175 million people already know that voting for a fascist or a genocide supporter is not ok, propaganda makes them believe they either have to chose one of the two

KISSmyOS, (edited )

The Democrats still don’t get it.
“We’re not Trump” isn’t enough, no matter how bad Trump is.

There are no people on the fence between voting Biden or voting Trump anymore. The distance between the camps is too great, every voter is already entrenched in one of the 2 camps.

Dems need to target the people on the fence between voting Dem and not voting at all. The people who are frustrated by the lack of progress, the lack of a real choice that will change the status quo, and the slow decline of their standard of living while the rich get richer. If they ran with a more radical leftist candidate and program, they might even convince a few Trump voters who just want things to change, no matter what direction, cause the current status quo sucks.

They won’t lose any core voters or centrists by moving to the left, cause those people know that the alternative is right-wing fascism. But there’s a huge voting pool of people who won’t stand in line for hours to vote for a candidate who has done nothing and will continue to do nothing for them, while their standard of life slowly deteriorates.

Pratai,

“We’re not trump” is enough for me.

JustARaccoon,

Perfectly well said, the same problem is happening in the UK at the moment, with Labour running on a platform of “we’re not Torries” without actually advocating for any changes

Thunderbird4,

Dems need to target the people on the fence between voting Dem and not voting at all.

Believe it or not, I’d say that’s who this message is targeted at. It’s for the people saying “Biden isn’t the exact candidate I want, so I’m not going to vote this time to teach Dems a lesson. Then they’ll have to run the exact candidate I want next time.” The message is that you should know that strategy will get you Trump, and you should know by now how that will go.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

they need to give people something worth voting for. not being trump just isn't good enough.

papertowels,

What executive level policies would you like to see enacted?

Thunderbird4,

-> You’ll be shot in the head if you don’t eat your Brussels sprouts.

-> No, cookies and ice cream or nothing!

Life and especially politics is full of compromises. Everybody compromises on something on every vote. You know what the stakes are, and you know what the consequences of inaction are.

Unfortunately, “not Trump” IS a good enough reason, and you have the choice to come to terms with that fact before November, or during a Trump presidency/dictatorship.

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

>You’ll be shot in the head if you don’t eat your Brussels sprouts. No, cookies and ice cream or nothing!

is this official Biden campaign messaging or are you all still working out the kinks?

how about this: fuck you, I won't do what you tell me

SkyezOpen,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    >You’re either an accelerationist that wants to see another civil war or a toddler throwing a tantrum.

    false dichotomy

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    >“Give me a perfect progressive candidate or I’ll let fascists dismantle democracy.”

    this is a straw man

    SkyezOpen,

    Let me present a more charitable interpretation then.

    “Give me a better candidate or I’ll let fascists dismantle democracy.”

    Better?

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    no, this is still a strawman.

    if you are going to argue with me, argue with what I'm saying, not some caricature you make up.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    >Not voting won’t teach dems shit.

    that was never the plan

    SkyezOpen,

    Then what is the plan?

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    my plan is to organize and fight.

    SkyezOpen,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    pigeonholing isn't legitimate discourse, it's just a form of ad hominem

    zalgotext,

    If you have a point make it, instead of just trying to score imaginary internet points by calling out logical fallacies.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    >The system is bullshit but the best we can do is stave off fascism for another election,

    the system is already fascist. it doesn't matter if you vote for the architect if the crime bill and the patriot act

    K1nsey6,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    aggressively petition our leaders

    This implies the working class has any impact on policy. The only ones with political influence are the donor class. When your single voice has the same impact on politicians as people like Jeff Bezos, then maybe. But you have no voice or representation in politics.

    The whole ‘push him left after the election’ hasn’t worked out so well, as Biden continued to shift to the right.

    SkyezOpen,

    I mostly agree with that, but biden has shown that he can be swayed by public opinion. I wish he would hurry the fuck up when it comes to Israel, but he’s slowly moving to a harder stance.

    K1nsey6,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    When has he been swayed by opinion? He ignored cries for defunding police by doing the exact opposite. He’s ignored demands for healthcare, wages, housing. He won’t come around on Israel until all of Gaza has been cleansed. Then shrug his shoulders proclaiming he’s done the best he could

    CileTheSane,
    @CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

    This implies the working class has any impact on policy. The only ones with political influence are the donor class. When your single voice has the same impact on politicians as people like Jeff Bezos, then maybe. But you have no voice or representation in politics.

    You think that would improve in any way if Trump gets elected?

    I agree, it sucks that Dems don’t have to actually try right now. But the fact is Trump has openly said he would be a dictator (“just for one day”) and has openly demonstrated his unwillingness to ever give up power. When people tell you who they are, believe them.

    There’s no sense in “teaching Dems a lesson” to run a better candidate if it leads to a very real possibility of the Dems never being able to run a candidate again. Unfortunately right now the only 2 options are:

    1. teach the Republicans a lesson that they have to run reasonable candidates with reasonable policies or they will lose hard, then pressure Dems to run better candidates or the at least somewhat reasonable Republican candidate will win. Or:
    2. burn it all down and hope something better rises from the ashes (and that you and your loved ones survive).
    K1nsey6,
    @K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

    Option 1 perpetuates the cycle of dysfunctional government. There is no pressuring Dems into anything if they are allowed to do whatever they want with no repercussions then get elected again. The working class doesn’t have the money necessary to pressure anything like the donor class does.

    never being able to run a candidate again

    This is hyperbole, regardless of what Trump says, the Constitution allows 2 terms total, and that’s it.

    How is it democrats believe Biden is completely powerless to pass anything because of Republicans, but believe Republicans would be able to pass all these things immediately? If democrats are so weak they can’t pass effective legislation then reelecting them is not the answer to the question.

    CileTheSane,
    @CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

    There is no pressuring Dems into anything if they are allowed to do whatever they want with no repercussions then get elected again.

    And what does it say to Republicans when they can attempt a literal insurrection to overthrow the government with no repercussions then get elected again? “That’s okay, just give it another shot.”

    The working class doesn’t have the money necessary to pressure anything like the donor class does.

    And how much voice do you think the working class would have under a 2nd term of Trump?

    This is hyperbole

    They attempted a literal insurrection to overthrow the government to keep control of it What makes you think they won’t try harder given a 2nd chance?

    regardless of what Trump says, the Constitution allows 2 terms total, and that’s it.

    Constitution also says the candidate with the most electoral collage votes gets elected president. They didn’t obey then, they won’t obey it at the end of the 2nd term. “He gets another because his 2nd was stolen!” or some stupid bullshit like that.

    How is it democrats believe Biden is completely powerless to pass anything because of Republicans, but believe Republicans would be able to pass all these things immediately? If democrats are so weak they can’t pass effective legislation then reelecting them is not the answer to the question.

    Nobody is saying the Republicans will “pass all these things”. Republicans won’t bother with following the legal pathways because getting reelected will prove to them that they don’t have to. Biden is having difficulty because he is obeying the constitution and laws, Republicans have already shown that they won’t.

    At this point I have to believe you’re a Russian Troll. That’s the only logical explanation for “The law abiding President isn’t doing everything I want, so I’m not going to stop the Dictator from taking over who definitely won’t do anything I want.”

    Aceticon,

    Sounds like the mental gymnastics people in Dictatorships, Slavery or Servitude use to justify going along with what their masters want.

    Better be the master’s trusted slave than the slave that gets beatings all the time, eh?!

    gamermanh,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    The message is that you should know that strategy will get you Trump

    This really does depend on where ya live, though.

    As a Californian I already know what my states 55 will be voting for (yay electoral college) and since I can also tell that people going “Biden ain’t good enough” are in the minority here I can pretty safely not vote for him this time (did last time) to hopefully help send the message that they’re losing numbers even in deep blue states. I get that it’s a small protest but when youve already called and written your representatives to say shit like this you can only do so much.

    My local elections will be voted in, as normal, but I’m gonna give my presidential one to a third party or nobody this year guilt free

    Thunderbird4,

    A perfectly fair point. My only concern there is that reliance on “sure things” in 2016 is part of why Hillary lost. There were, after all, more votes for Trump in California than any other state, simply down to population size. I’d just hate to see us all get shot in the foot again due to complacency.

    TurtleJoe,
    @TurtleJoe@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s a stupid protest, because the only reason any third party people are on the ballot is because they want to be Biden spoilers. Jill Stein is a Russian op, for example.

    None of these “third parties” even run in want local, or even any federal elections besides president. They are fake parties, why would you encourage that sort of thing? To “say” you don’t like Biden enough? You think these Russian and GOP dark money funded people are more worthy of your vote?

    Daft_ish,

    We, as voting citizens, are left to believe Democrats don’t want to move left. That is the only reason they won’t adopt progressive policies. It’s not because people wouldn’t vote for them. It’s exemplified by Bidens voting record. I’m not saying they should have picked someone with a better record. I’m saying, outside a handful of people, all of their voting records are shite when you start looking at them. From that handful they are either, 100 year old jesus(bernie) or a bunch of stinkers. Sure, they could pull from the younger generation but let’s face it; the Democratic party structure favors seniority.

    One thing is for sure neither party is going to willingly give up power and we as americans instinctually know the only way to get it back is to take it.

    rayyy,

    americans instinctually know the only way to get it back is to take it.

    Unfortunately that is the only way left. The left doesn’t have a Koch sugar daddy, who provided millions to establish teabaggers and far right crazies as political forces.

    Daft_ish, (edited )

    I wouldn’t want a Koch sugar daddy. There is no such thing as a benevolent king.

    Aceticon,

    Judging by what I’ve seen in my own country in the non-mainstream Left, people who have grown-up in the neoliberal era have generally interiorized stuff like “greed is good” (for supposed lefties, maybe not at the overt putting yourself first level, but certainly as the demanding for your “group” that which mainly benefits people like yourself) and Consumerism, and very few overcome that without a little bit of experiencing multiple sides of life (not quite the same as being old but up to a point correlated with age).

    This would explain why its so hard to find people even in their 30s with actual leftwing principles (“the greatest good for the greatest number”) rather than merelly liberal ones (“people should be allowed to do whatever they want”) interpreted in a way that’s compatible with things like extreme wealth hoarding - the latter are absolutelly compatiblle with neoliberalism (which wants that very same freedom of doing anything including in the economic field) whilst the former is not (because total freedom in the economic field quickly becomes the opposited of “the greatest good for the greatest number” because some people couldn’t care less about making others suffer if it yields them even the tiniest of personal gains and since money makes money and money is power those often yield enormous power in a system where the power of the state has been nullified in the name of “freedom”)

    Passerby6497,

    “We’re not Trump” isn’t enough, no matter how bad Trump is.

    As someone with lots of trans and LGBT+ people in my chosen family, it abso-fucking-lutely enough. When the options are compromising and voting for the establishment center-right candidate who will protect those I love and the possibility of a fascist coming to power who wants to destroy them, it’s not even a question on whether it’s good enough.

    People have to stop acting like perfect is the opposite of good when the only other alternative is an out of control dumpster fire.

    Zink,

    That’s funny, for me as a cishet white middle aged dad without many LGBT+ friends and family but who gives a shit about other people, it is also abso-fucking-lutely enough! Never mind that I like not living in a dictatorship.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    as a german I’m not that up to date but is it still possible that this orange, wig wearing cunt can run for presidency?

    Elderos,

    Yes absolutely. It will be up to the Court to decide.

    verdantbanana,
    @verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

    everything here has devolved into a state by state issue with state trumping federal laws

    it depends on who each individual state decides to put on the ballot to allow the people to vote for

    ramenshaman,

    We’re working on that. So far 2 states (Colorado and Maine, which have 10 and 4 electoral college votes respectively out of a total of 538) have taken Trump off their election ballots, but this will likely go to the supreme court, of which 3 out of 9 judges were appointed by Trump.

    Despite 3 of the judges being appointed by Trump, they have made it clear that they won’t do his bidding, so far, so there is hope that he won’t be eligible.

    I’m disappointed he’s not already in prison.

    kent_eh,

    Despite 3 of the judges being appointed by Trump, they have made it clear that they won’t do his bidding,

    They have said that, but have they convincingly demonstrated it?

    Moira_Mayhem,

    I don’t think there’s a conservative member of our government that has spoken the truth in the last 40 years. I don’t expect them to start now.

    My guess is going to be that SCOTUS makes way for another soft coup attempt if cheetolini loses again, and just like this time nothing will be done about it.

    And at some point we’re going to get a fascist that isn’t an idiot and then democracy is over for the U.S.

    All because the rich are legally untouchable.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    please work harder and also good luck to you

    Chainweasel,

    Colorado was overturned a few hours ago, he’ll be on the ballot.

    cbsnews.com/…/colorado-secretary-state-certifies-…

    ramenshaman,

    Fuck :(

    DragonTypeWyvern,

    The decision is paused until the Supreme Court renders judgement, this was always going to happen.

    It shouldn’t be happening. The law and precedent is clear. But it was going to anyways.

    The only question is exactly how compromised the newer additions are, what Harlan Crow wants, and whether Roberts will remember he supposedly cares about the Constitution as a sacred institution.

    LarryTheMatador,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Chainweasel,

    Don’t quote me As I’m not a lawyer, But because the Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal I think it puts an injunction on the original ruling making it unenforceable until after the SC makes their ruling, but please correct me if I’m wrong because this is just an educated guess.

    AutistoMephisto,
    @AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world avatar

    And the SCOTUS will likely not rule until after the election, citing “huge backlog” of other “more important” cases.

    spaduf,

    Actually they’re moving fairly quickly. Oral arguments begin early February.

    zik, (edited )

    He can still be ineligible to run for office though, even if he wins a primary.

    zik, (edited )

    I think people are missing something important here - this ruling is merely that he can appear on a party primary ballot, which is something not explicitly covered by the constitution. Even if he wins a primary the supreme court can then rule that he’s still ineligible to run as president.

    doggle,

    That will likely come down to a decision by our supreme Court, who haven’t been known for making very reasonable (or ethical, or logically consistent) decisions as of late.

    My personal hunch is he’ll be allowed to run. Happy to be surprised, though.

    100_kg_90_de_belin,

    The Supreme Court with a majority of Republican originalists would bend over backwards to let Trump run for presidency

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    He will still lose when he is allowed to run. Because if he is allowed to run EVERYONE will show up to vote him out. Because he’s got way more people that hate him than love him. He lost by a lot last time. And it’s even worse now that we have had to hear about him non stop since he has been in the spotlight.

    LdyMeow,

    I suuuuuure hope so

    Trollception,

    He isn’t polling very well against Trump… I have my doubts

    GladiusB,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Polls are only for boring people with nothing else to do but bicker. There are plenty of people that vote that don’t bother with all the grandstanding before the actual elections.

    Jimmyeatsausage,

    That sounds a lot like how I thought in 2016. I hope you’re right, but my faith in my fellow citizens hasn’t been restored yet.

    Railing5132,

    It’s tired and worn out, but my faith is so low that I look both ways at a roundabout.

    Witchfire,
    @Witchfire@lemmy.world avatar

    He’ll only lose if everyone who comes out votes for the same guy. If people protest vote for a third party, Trump will win.

    31337,

    He will likely be allowed to run because so much of the country supports him, there is some legal gray area (he has not been convicted), and the courts are “conservative.” I personally think he will win because Biden is getting even worse at speeches, much of the population doesn’t think their personal lives improved under Biden, and a lot of people are upset for how Biden has/is handling the Israel war.

    A lot of things could happen before the election that would hurt Biden as well. A recession, expansion of Israel war, and losses in Ukraine are possibilities that could hurt Biden. I don’t think anything could hurt Trump. I think he could win the election from prison. Trump voters will eagerly buy any conspiracy theory to keep supporting Trump, and they don’t care about democracy or human rights. Democrat and Biden voters are much more critical and fickle.

    zik,

    “He hasn’t been convicted of insurrection” isn’t a legal gray area, that’s just misdirection by his supporters. Just like most other legal proceedings this one isn’t dependent on the result of other legal proceedings. The supreme court will decide for themselves whether he was “involved in insurrection” - the law here doesn’t depend on him being previously convicted of “insurrection”, a different charge which has a much higher legal bar.

    There’s overwhelming evidence that he was “involved” in this insurrection so he’ll almost certainly be held accountable. But whether the supreme court decides to disqualify him depends mostly on their interpretation of the clause naming the offices which he can be banned from. Given that the supreme court are republicans will they rule that “public office” does or doesn’t include the presidency since it isn’t named explicitly in the clause?

    NotMyOldRedditName,

    According to another random lemmy user, the clause actually did originally include the president explicitly, but it was then removed saying the language already covered it so it wasn’t needed.

    Not sure if that’s true at all, but apparently it’s recorded history, so if it’s true it’s hard to refute it and say they didn’t mean it?

    zik, (edited )

    But maybe they removed it because they saw it as unnecessary? It’d be restating the obvious since it already says insurrectionists can’t be officials, then goes on to list a few examples which were pertinent when the law was created in response to the aftermath of the civil war. In the end it depends whether they decide to interpret part of the clause literally and as more important than the intent of the clause, which seems pretty clear. How they interpret it seems to be a bit up in the air given their party affiliations.

    Legal Eagle does a really good run down of the legal aspects here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=krVNdQOWYk4

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The supreme court will decide for themselves whether he was “involved in insurrection”

    No they won’t. That has already been found to be fact in the Colorado Supreme Court. They have to decide on it despite that finding. They have to find a way to support their boy despite having to admit he engaged in insurrection.

    Chainweasel,

    Yes, and he’s just as popular with his voters as he was in 2020, if not more, because they’re sympathetic to his claims that all the charges against him were politically motivated.
    The 14th amendment hasn’t been tested to anywhere near this extent ever, so the Supreme Court is likely to rule in his favor because there haven’t been any convictions yet and we have literally nothing to use as precident (and because he personally appointed 1/3 of the justices)

    Jakdracula,
    @Jakdracula@lemmy.world avatar

    Don’t blame me, I voted for the email lady.

    TheBat,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    https://media0.giphy.com/media/VQoU1iASZaBw1KdbtQ/giphy.gif

    Nahodyashka,

    Boy, would that sound less hollow if the dems were not actively trying to cancel primaries.

    MedicPigBabySaver,

    Moron

    dangblingus,

    Blatant fake news.

    Modva,

    Do explain please.

    ramenshaman,

    Cancel primaries? Sounds like a huge load of BS. I don’t suppose you have a source?

    ChunkMcHorkle, (edited )
    @ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted by creator

    Tinidril,

    www.wral.com/story/…/21218264/

    www.miamiherald.com/news/…/article282666758.html

    Nahodyashka,

    Add New Hampshire to the list of states showing DNC election interference along with Tennessee, North Carolina.

    I get the frustration people have with NH always going 1st. However, SC was pushed 1st, specifically bc of how Biden performed there last election.

    Tinidril, (edited )

    It’s crazy how obviously racist their justification for the NC move is too. Black people are apparently interchangeable, and a black person in NC is just like a black person in NY, Detroit, LA, Chicago, or Texas. They couldn’t possibly have different perspectives or interests, after all, they are black.

    Orbituary,
    @Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

    Pray tell, say more.

    EatATaco,

    Well, you see, I’m a sheep and can’t really think on my own, and so when I was told that Biden not debating is actually cancelling the primaries, well, you know, I just started to parrot it because that’s my job.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • news@lemmy.world
  • ngwrru68w68
  • DreamBathrooms
  • thenastyranch
  • magazineikmin
  • InstantRegret
  • GTA5RPClips
  • Youngstown
  • everett
  • slotface
  • rosin
  • osvaldo12
  • mdbf
  • kavyap
  • cisconetworking
  • JUstTest
  • tester
  • normalnudes
  • cubers
  • khanakhh
  • Durango
  • ethstaker
  • tacticalgear
  • Leos
  • provamag3
  • anitta
  • modclub
  • megavids
  • lostlight
  • All magazines
    •