I don't give a flying fuck what the Forefathers wanted. Why would we let a bunch of dead sexist slave owners decide the kind of country we want to live in?
@inventor@jackcole I certainly don't think they were all bad at all, I'm fascinated by history, but I'm tired of it being used as an excuse to maintain the status quo
@inventor@jackcole Yep, I decided long ago it was a bad idea to have heroes, people are flawed, doesn't mean they can't accomplish good things, but they are.
Say what you want about how times have changed; they at least acknowledged that times would change. THEY knew that they were not the be-all and end-all, even if their idolaters don't.
And I'll tell you one I like: There are three co-equal branches of government. Ever since John Marshall, chief justice of the SCOTUS asserted that SCOTUS could strike down laws, SCOTUS has become the government without branches. He did this in an irrelevant case. No one every meaningfully pushed back. So no matter what the Congress or Executive do, SCOTUS can always over rule. Laws and EOs only exist if SCOTUS approves. There are no branches.
@nuncio@RickiTarr SCOTUS regularly ignores the "well-regulated militia" part. In the 1700s version of such militia, weapons were kept in an armory until issued for a particular battle. But if SCOTUS insists on the orginalism game, then everyone who wants a gun must only have a black powder, muzzle loader with no rifling, just as our forefathers had.TAkes a few minutes to reload, and there is zip accuracy. But to be faithful to those times ...
@RickiTarr
The men drafting the original Constitution tried to outlaw slavery, but because one vote could veto any Article, Massachusetts was able to keep slavery legal. All the rest voted to outlaw slavery.
It's as if the people on this thread are unaware of the Enlightenment. At least the Founders tried to rid of the US of theocracy and the stinking Divine Right of Kings. We have anti-sexist laws on the books and in the Constitution NOW and they don't help a bit.
@RickiTarr They understood that too, that politics would shift and societal norms would evolve. That is why they gave us a mechanism for constitutional amendment.
On the other hand, given the deterioration of virtually all common sense and decency in Washington these days, not sure that option would not have a genie’s curse.
@RickiTarr
I just visited the portrait gallery in the Second National Bank, Philadelphia. Got to see a lot of "founders", many painted by Charles Willson Peale. The National Park Service guide stood in front of the portrait of Thomas Jefferson to extoll the abolitionist next to him. Good job! https://www.nps.gov/inde/planyourvisit/secondbankportraitgallery.htm
The unintentional good parts, the ideals to strive for, not the realities as they are.
They wished for the people to follow them to be better than themselves. That part is noteworthy.
But I also understand where you're coming from. We've come a long way and too many current leaders are dragging our country back to the worst parts of them (the racism, the sexism, etc.)
@RickiTarr
Because most of them were rational agnostics who studied history and wanted to chart a path to prevent the cultic tyrrany of one overlord. That these rules they created eventually outlawed slavery and enfranchised everyone else were natural consequences of this.
If you listen to Republicans these days they want to overturn all the articles of the Constitution and think that the teachings of Jesus are for losers.
@Vreejack I mean more in the sense of using the Forefathers as an excuse to not change or to support sexism or slavery, this is inexcusable. The Forefathers are just men.
Seriously. The constitution wasn't meant to be carved in stone. It was meant to be altered by what Americans want. Unfortunately the way things are set up it is practically impossible to make big changes like doing away the electoral college or ratifying the ERA.
@RickiTarr those forefathers had no love for my people and I have no love for them and their descendants today either genetically or ethically. Saying nice shit and doing terrible shit was their MO and it's still how it goes today
@RickiTarr We have so many great people to base our society off of. (Hint: It's not old, dead, racist, sexist, misogyinistic, white guys). And yet people keep trying.
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