Insanity. I’ve been around a few times when people were talking about migrating but this truly does seem like the most real possibility yet. And I welcome it with open arms.
I've been waiting for this for years now. This is the first time the migration feels real. Let's milk this cow here as long as possible until it gets ruined by investors like they do it with anything fun.
That's why being open source & decentralized is so important. There's no one operator to buy out. It's so much harder for investors to fuck this up... or some other power-tripping individuals.
What if they're doing this, letting us all get riled up, and then after the black out they go "ok ok, we get it. We'll reduce the cost down to insert still high but irritatingly doable number" and that was the plan all along. That they started outrageously high so they can land where they actually expected to be. A bunch of users go back grumbling but feeling like they still won, yet we got 4d cheesed.
Idk, seems out of character for spez and CEOs in general. I really think they're just that clueless. They think they have a website. What they actually have is a community. And now it's an angry one.
We've reached a point where leaders have realized that they can literally flip their supporters the middle finger, call them all idiots, and still have people consume their product. It used to be that CEOs used to at least try to hide behind PR image management consultants, but these days? Well, to quote our former US president "I could shoot a man in the middle of Fifth Avenue and people would still vote for me." And he's right. I'm not trying to get into a political discussion, more a societal one - this is where we are as a society - where leaders can do awful things and yet people shrug their shoulders and keep doing what they're doing as though nothing happened.
Louis Rossmann made a really good point about all of this too. A 2-day blackout is perhaps worse than doing nothing. All it does is prove that people will go away for a day or two, then come back and continue on like nothing happened. It proves that no matter how angry you make your customers, they'll be back.
I'm really glad to see so many communities have committed to going private indefinitely. I'm also glad to see just how many users are leaving the site "permanently" (one can hope they remain true to that). The only way that a company will learn is if they suffer consequences that actually affect their bottom line. PR doesn't mean jack these days, only profit.
Too late for me, already deleted 99.9% of my content. My account will follow after the strike. I want to advertise some mags (do we say that? I say that) that ought to replace the subs i liked. Then i'm gone.
Fuck them. Even if the 3rd party app debacle settles, there is still so much shit going on that I wanted to leave for a few months anyways:
They've been trying to forcibly transform reddit to be the bazillionth social media website for years now. Avatars, being able to follow accounts, I don't need that shit. I want a content-centric website with a discussion culture, not Instagram X.0 where the depth of a comment rarely goes beyond "yeah, that's cool". It's only a matter of time until you can't downvote anymore and they will implement some form of swiping or some other unnecessary shit function.
Their app is shit. Their new website design is shit (and will be forced on users soon 100%).
The whole NFT-avatar-embarrassment is a whole chapter on it's own. They still try to sell that bs to people, even after all of them lost 90%+ of it's value. The fact that this company runs a pyramid scheme as a side hustle should be reason enough to leave.
Then there is the censorship. I don't mind censoring nazis and alike, they can go to hell. But the monkey business going on with the subs that try to help with the migration to other platforms is the epitome of stupid. As if these people never heard of the Streisand effect. These people think we are idiots, and they let us know at every opportunity.
I've always been one to try the "new hotness". When Vista came out, I used it as soon as it was available to me. Same with 7, 8, 8.1, 10. (The TPM bullshit and a need for a stable machine when W11 came out meant I stuck with 10 on my main machine) As soon as the official app was available, I installed it and used it for over a year. I used the new interface for about 2 months before going back. I'm not resistant to change, I in fact actively try to adapt to the new interfaces. But both reddit's mobile app and new website have been so fucking bad, I just couldn't deal with them.
Honestly, even if they did do that (and I personally don't see it as likely) - they've slandered the name of third party app developers enough IMO, especially Apollo. Apollo's dev isn't continuing his app without a written apology for spez's blatant lies, and I'd say other devs'd do the same, so the damage has already been done.
That won’t happen. The high API prices are there to fleece the AI bros desperate for training data for their new models.
What might happen is that they might offer some limited concessions to some devs under some conditions for some period of time in the hope that this gets misreported as “Reddit says okay to devs” and the fuss dies down despite nothing having changed in the long run.
The AI excuse is a smokescreen. If it was really just about fleecing the AI bros they could have made a tiered system where free API access is rate-limited. The AI trainers "read" millions of times faster than people, so a paid access that lets them read that quickly would absolutely be worth paying for. This has always been about killing apps that don't give Reddit absolute control over what you see.
Or they could just charge all users the same amount. An amount that happens to be exactly what they want to charge this new groups of customers and is much more than anyone ever considered this data was worth until a few months back. Like they’re doing.
I think come July, Reddit will remember why websites offer free/low cost API access.
Everyone who wants the data will start busting out the web scrapers again. Chat GPT makes deciphering any obscuration techniques (changing class names, table formats, etc.) absolutely trivial.
Like, ultimately, I have no philosophical objection to Reddit charging for API access. I have an objection to Reddit a) charging ludicrous, unreasonable amounts with the very obvious intention of killing off third party apps and tools and b) repeatedly giving a middle finger to its own userbase, and particularly those who put in unpaid labour to keep the site ticking over.
Unfortunately a) goes against Reddit's express self-interest, and with regards to b) some people are stupid enough or salty enough about having their shitposts removed from places they shouldn't be to actually be on Reddit's side and going "yeah, down with mods!", neglecting to note that the mods are pretty much all that stands between Reddit and a horde of spambots, porn accounts, children, trolls and racists making the site downright unusable.
As far as I understand, the thrid party app developers stood in solidarity and they are scrapping the apps no matter what at this point.
The protest is more of a way to show reddit administration that they need to be community centric rather than profit motivated because the community can mess their shit up if when they need to.
I don't know what it will do, really. I'm just glad I got out and found this place. I hope more like minded people find it and move too.
Scrapping the app is the smart thing to do regardless. Even if Reddit backed down on this the trust is broken and you know that sooner or later (most likely sooner) they are going to proceed anyway.
Better to kill your app and work on the next thing than wait to have the rug pulled again
It is bitter sweet, but I am excited to a new start in a much smaller (dare I say tighter?) community.
The short time I've spent here so far has been relaxing in a way. I don't feel rushed to get to the next post. The clunkiness on mobile reminds me of forums back in the early 2000s. I'm sure the nostalgia will wear off, but at this very hectic point in my life, it's nice to slow down for a change.
This has exactly been my experience so far. I've been on reddit for about ten years and the last few years things just got a bit too big/hectic. I'm very excited about a fresh start regarding social media and really think this might be the way to go!
Definitely slow, but I kinda like it (for now). I feel like I'm paying attention to what I'm doing here instead of just doom scrolling and time sinking.
Things are far from optimized, and the servers are swamped now, but if the interest for these places increases, we will also see improvements in the tech. Anyone could in theory contribute to making it better.
I have to imagine with today being the day the boycott starts that the servers here are absolutely swamped. Every new site has growing pains. When I came here to try it out I made a point of consciously reminding myself of that fact. I'm sure it'll improve with time.
I agree with both of you @Rexxiter and @Ole, and the best thing for me here is, people actually talking about things like a normal forum.
Reddit has that "everything is an inside joke and to get upvotes, you gotta post the appropriate inside joke first" feeling. It's a collosal collection of memes in that regard.
This here feels like a normal forum with normal people talking normally about normal things. It's amazing!
I, for one, am going to miss the endless inside jokes that every subreddit has. But one of the perks of being an early adopter is that maybe I can see new ones appearing here.
I certainly won't miss immediately having to scroll down a ways on every popular thread to get passed the same posts/ inside jokes (like that David Frum quote on politics subs) that crop up every day in every thread. It has gotten to the point where with any active thread in any sub I frequent, I could guess what the top 5 most up voted replies were going to say before clicking on the thread.
If you're on mobile, you can install it as a PWA and it works pretty well. Stick with it through the clunkiness, growing pains, and Reddit #HugOfDeath and I think this will really turn into something great!
If this was meant to be a good PR thing for Reddit, they wouldn't have done that terrible AMA. I really do thing Reddit is dead set on their plans right now.
Reddit is using spez to cop the hate and take the fall. He will resign from his position and take a 'behind the scenes' type job at reddit. Then a new public face will be appointed.
He's certainly indicated that his main regret of selling the first time around was not hanging on and getting a larger payout. Taken from an interview in 2014
"Regret is a strong word but if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have sold," Huffman, now 31, told IT Pro.
"It kind of stings a little bit when I think about how much money I left on the table. [The sale] was a big deal for me at the time. I was 22 and it seemed like a lot of money for me.
"In hindsight it was a mistake to sell but at the time it was very exciting. I didn't think Reddit was going to keep growing – I thought it was dead. We were so dysfunctional internally. It seemed like the smartest thing to do was just to try and get some money out of it while we could."
Demanding that a for-profit business forego profit seeking is like asking a cat to stop hunting.
It's what they do.
Communities are fundamentally not profitable. Maintaining community requires work and infrastructure, and all adding profit on top of that does is increase the price of maintenance.
The profit motivation, instead, causes people to do things that are inherently anti-social, and which injure communities.
Reddit is entertainment, above all else. There's no "community" in a forum with 2 million people in it. There is only noise. But communities found homes on Reddit, and Reddit has no use for them.
There's no profit motivation here, though. Costs need to be covered, but costs are also distributed. Transparency and the understanding that community is an investment can keep things rolling and free of meddling from pepole who want to abuse our psychology and degrade our mental heakth to line their pockets.
Spez and his ego are too invested in it now. He can't back down, his ego won't allow him to. Although, I could see a vote of no confidence from the board removing him and them saying "Oops our bad, we've removed him and we're going to listen to the community."
Never forget what happened to digg.com People don't seem to learn, although they managed to slowly bring the site to a halt in 14 years which a long time so they are not that stupid I guess.
I don't think it's a problem of not learning the lesson. The problem is that you can't succeed in making a social network if you ask anyone to pay in any way. You need it to be useful, which means you need everyone on it, and everyone won't be on it if it costs anything or is otherwise gated behind even the smallest of hurdles. So rich VCs come in and say, "here's $100,000,000 to go make this thing invaluable, and then I want my money back with a handsome profit". Everyone in the game always knows that the product is going to get shitty when it comes time to pay the piper. Being shitty is a side-effect of making money. The gamble is that it'll be so ingrained in people's life than they'll begrudging eat the shit to keep using it. They're looking for the elbow in the curve -- how shitty can it be before everyone abandons it. That spot of maximum shittiness isn't a mistake -- it's the target.
OK, you definitely know a lot more about economy and investments than I do (I'm a brewer from Switzerland). I don't even know what VC stands for, I could google it but I guess it means Venture Capitalist?
You cannot make money on "a place where people stand around and talk." So what can you sell those people? Or what can you sell to people that want to connect to the people hanging out. In order to do that you have to "enshittify" the product. Cory Doctorow got it perfectly correct in his essay.
The issue is, from my perspective: people who can not afford to donate use a platform, and do not donate or donate whatever bit they can; people who can afford to donate is iffy. People who run projects have personal bills and costs for the project, which would imply a reasonable profit from the project be made, if that is a full or over-time job, in order to avoid advertisements and investors. In a perfect world, that would balance equitably. Alas, that seems not to yet be the case.
@VulcanSphere if enough people still use reddit despite the outrage then the bad behavior will continue. Right now all reddit management care about is the IPO price.
The impact won't be evident immediately. With so many content producers leaving, and with so many older accounts being deleted (if people actually follow thru), we'll see the site turn to shambles in a few months I would expect. The bots will take over, and it will be worse than Twitter before too long.
@S_204 the site could go to shambles just from mods leaving. New mods will probably be put into place for the popular subs but those will probably be the worst mods and they will probably be missing tools thanks to the API issues.
I do agree that whatever effects won't be immediate I just don't think the people running reddit right now will care. All they really need to do is make reddit look valuable enough to get investors on board. The individuals at reddit with shares can then sell before people realize its going downhill. For investors shit like forcing the app usage will look like improving profits and it even might in the short term. Now to really see a shit show they have to come out with the idea of nuking adult content. I can't remember if they talked about this but I could see it being attempted. Especially if they're pushing for people to use a mobile app and mobile platforms force them to block adult content.
I feel like this should be a feature of capitalism. Once you hit like $50-$100million in the bank, there's a ceremony where they give you a fancy "I won capitalism" gold trophy and then you have to retire to live your life. You aren't allowed to continue running corporations and politics after hitting that threshold.
The blackout is definitely "working", in the sense that I've trying to troubleshoot a Firefox Android issue and all the best looking answers on Google are Reddit links that lead to privated subs.
I know I won't be there only person inconvenienced today, and I can only hope it has a lasting effect on people's opinions of Reddit going forward.
I have come from Reddit because the concept of the Fediverse seems to me a better concept, now it just needs to acquire critical mass. Not at all I miss Reddit, all my homies hate Spez xD
I'm curious how this'll impact platforms going forward. If it ends up being a fart in the wind, reddit recovers 2 days later.. I can see more companies taking the initial bad press knowing they'll get what they want anyway. Or, if it sticks like shit to porcelain - sticking to their guns, killing off their product and burning bridges and reputations on the way out - will it give companies the realisation that we are entering a new world now where such decisions will have real lasting effects.
I truly hope this is the start of something, I hope the same bleeds out into the likes of gaming when something is shipped in such a disastrous state at a premium price, apology is made then everyone goes quiet.
Being held accountable and to suffer consequence is something that's been alien to these people for too long.
I'm right here hoping with you, but there are so many cases of this not being the case.
Twitter - faltered but I would have bet money when Elon took over and fired half the staff that it would have gone under by now.
(correct me if I'm wrong) AAA games being released first and then finished later - that feels almost acceptable. Yes Zelda gets high praise for their year of polish, but at what cost? Pokemon gets released yearly and people still buy it up buggy or not.
Car companies are/will bend us over with subscriptions to physical hardware in the cars and deactivate it when the car is sold on.
It will be very interesting to see what Reddit looks like at the end of the week.
I don't know how long the car thing is going to fly honestly. Like, locking the seat warmers behind a subscription? How do they plan on enforcing that? It's a power switch and resistor running to a heat coil. The local electrician / mechanic could make a pretty penny installing 3rd party switches, and that's just from the physical aspect of things. Nearly all onboard computers are running android these days, once these sub features become widely problematic it's only a matter of time before someone on XDA releases a rom and guide to jailbreaking your car.
I blocked reddit at the router level to break the habit of visiting that site - caught myself a few times over the past two days doing it. Squabbles is a smaller site than kbin, but a bit easier to navigate. This site has so many features it's taking a bit of time to learn the interface. But this site also has 10x the users than squabbles making it more enjoyable to view the "top" feed
The only issue I see is several of the 'default' subs across the top aren't blacked out. A few of them have notices, but some of the major subs don't. It's a disappointing and I think the last time they did this they were involved.
About time Reddit got a serious hit in user base. They felt too invincible thanks to lack of a serious competitior. Hopefully platforms like kbin will be able to handle that mass migration of users and one of them will become the "next Reddit".
I remember Digg, yes. My reddit account, which I will keep to try to motivate people from the communities I like to move to the Fediverse, is 14 years old. Basically when Digg took the decision to fuck their community. My account here is about 3 days old, I guess in about ten years I will have to do another migration. Although I will be a very old contributor by then (in Internet age).
I don't think DeCSS is what killed Digg. It hurt their reputaiton, but they could have survived.
What lead to the great Digg Migration was the rollout of Digg v4. It was a complete ground-up rewrite that was buggy as hell and launched with core Digg features missing.
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