!handsome jack started off as an honorable person with morals, but was repeatedly stabbed in the back and jaded over time. He still has the mindset of a good guy but the chaotic planning of a bad guy due to the experiences that he’s had.!<
Rorschach being good is debatable, he’s a Batman like vigilante who hasn’t the ‘no killing’ rule, which is dubious.
But the reason he chose death was (in my humble opinion) that he realized Veidt had found the solution, that would bring peace and create a world he would be useless in.
This point is made by the ultra nationalist frontiersman publication he sent his diary to. They complain that they have nothing to write about as the world was united in boring peace, this is when the burger munching intern gets the assignment to pull something out of the loonie pile.
I should re-read it, but the impression I got was that Oz was the epitome of this thread’s topic. A real “ends justify the means” villain, where his end goal is to save the world from itself by giving it a common enemy to vanquish. And he does it. In terms of the classical trolley problem, he pulled the lever to kill 1 instead of doing nothing and allowing 5 to die. Am I misremembering?
That’s roughly right, but that doesn’t make him in any meaningful way “good”. Of course I also don’t think anyone who decided to drop the bombs on Japan was a “good guy”. But maybe that’s why I’m not a pure utilitarian.
Veidt asked the precognitive being if his plans for utopia would come to be, and if it was all worth it in the end. Osterman cryptically responded by saying “Nothing ever ends”, and teleported away leaving Veidt once again in doubt as to whether or not his plan was successful.
From what I understood, he spent the whole story acting super-sure about what would happen if he did nothing, and how he alone could fix it. But in the end of the comic, this showed he had doubts. Veidt didnt have precognition, just very good prediction. But also an over-inflated ego. He killed a lot of people for a “maybe”.
Alex isn’t a ‘good guy.’ He’s the price you pay to liver in a free society where people are allowed to make their own choices, no matter how stupid they are.
I haven’t seen the movie, but in the book, absolutely fucking not. At one point he abuses two 10 year-olds and from that point there was precisely 0 empathy from me. Bad shit happened to him while incarcerated which is unfortunate, but a lot of other things that happened to him before the incarceration and after he was released were completely deserved.
Edit: To be clear, he did plenty of other bad shit, and I’m not comparing the things he did between themselves, that was just the tipping point for him becoming irredeemable to me. His age doesn’t make a difference to me.
Expanding a little on your point, I feel like a lot of people miss one of the themes of the book being "does forcing someone to be a good person by stripping them of their free will actually make them a good person?" I don't think Alex ever really regretted what he did, it's just for a short time he couldn't do it anymore. Even after they reverse his treatment, he goes and forms another gang. iirc The only reason he even thinks about stopping is because the violence isn't "fun" anymore.
So yeah, not really a good guy.
Voyager kinda fucks with my ability to set spoiler tags, so here is your Spoiler Warning.
The Cabin in the Woods (even tho the organisation is run by complete assholes, they also happen to postpone the end of the word)
Mass Effect series (the Geth are actually ok having peace with everyone. They just happen to be in a civil war with Reaper worshippers)
Witcher 2 (Letho turns out to be the good guy)
Wanted (the father turns out to be the good guy)
Battlestar Galactica 2004 series (yes, the Cylons enacted the nuclear holocaust on humanity, but there is a case to be made that the vast majority of them have been manipulated by a faction of ancient Cylons, which leads to a civil war later in the show)
Cylons being manipulated by other cylons doesn’t absolve them of guilt.
BSG did have a few instances of the reverse of OP’s question tho – where the “good guys” turned out to be bad" – trying to say this without spoilers; it’s a 20 year old show but ffs of you haven’t seen it, go see it now.
the (temporary) new admiral
several main characters during the part where they live on the dirty planet
a very specific set of seven main characters (wink wink) … .and more,…
And there’s one specific example of the full 360 – a character that starts good, turns bad, but turns out they were actually good all along. I won’t give the name, but they were passing messages to the resistance.
That show was awesome.
One note tho, on the topic generally: flipping character alignments is a frequent pre-shark-jump thing, and is often bad writing. In BSG, tho, all of the “flips” are pre-planned, or at least 100% true to their character (eg the 360 example above).
BSG is one of the best shows I have ever watched and not a single twist came across as forced or unnatural.
If I think about that I started watching it years after it was made and only started because I was bored out of my mind at that time. I could have missed it so easily.
Same here, I think I started it during the lack of new content after the 07-08 writers strike. I thought it would be a mid sci-fi show I would put on for background then it turned out to be awesome.
From someone who has never seen anything about BSG besides jokes here and there in media, where would I start? The 2003 miniseries into the show? Should I start farther back?
I watched the miniseries then the show, and there was some additional stuff I watched also but I don’t remember exactly when. There was a spinoff called Caprica, it was good but never got a second season.
Here is a watch order that includes a couple movies and webseries, but it puts Caprica at the beginning. It is a prequel but I think it would be better watching it after everything else like it was released.
Edit: if I remember correctly Caprica either has some serious spoilers or there are some things you wouldn’t understand if you hadn’t seen the main show, I don’t want to say anything more but I don’t know why they recommend it first.
He doesn’t “turn bad”. He’s good all along, but he’s a target of a witch hunt, understandably gets jaded by it and gets absolved at the last moment. It’s the judging commission or however they called themselves who are the bad guys there. Gaeta is innocent all along, even if he is annoying at times.
You’re right, I’ll concede that – but only because BSG is an amazing show and very few characters can be reduced to “good” and “bad” – even the “antagonists” (in the traditional sense of those characters working against the stories’ progression) have pretty valid reasons for doing what they do.
Gaius (sp?) is one of the closest characters to “bad” – but not because of the bad things he does, but because of the bad things he is – ie, vain, selfish, etc – and the fact that he lets those negative characteristics drive his actions.
All the characters have flaws, but the “good” characters do their best to mitigate their flaws, and let their positive traits motivate them. For example, Adama often acts before he thinks, a trait that is awesome in combat, but can be less positive other times – and he (as best he can) seeks advice and counsel from the people he trusts (eg Saul Tigh) – he knows he can be impulsive and he knows his “instant judgement” decision making isn’t perfect.
Cavil (that’s his name I think) is close to “evil” but he does have reasons for his actions – preservation of his “species” (though really it’s just himself) – but he’s evil because of the fact that he doesn’t listen and acts with disloyalty and dishonor.
(There’s an amazing comeuppance for the titular character of the show Nathan Barley that epitomizes this idea: Barley doesn’t actually do anything wrong, but his motivations are repugnant, and his motivations are what’s revealed… Shit I should write a whole essay on that…)
Are there contemporary shows that are as good as BSG? I kind of gave up on TV after Firefly.
In the third season of the legend of korra, a group of people try to get rid of a monarchy (which is long established as especially unequal and oppressive) in favor of self government. They also try to get rid of the avatar, because she is an infallible being with incredibly outsized power. I love the avatar universe and get how they needed to fight them, but the group wasn’t wrong
If you’re talking about Kuvira you should read the comics that take place after the show. My feelings on Kuvira became much more mixed as I ended up sympathizing with her after finishing them.
No they definitely were bad guys. You cant try to murder someone just because they were born as a specific person you dont like and be good guys. And they didnt differentiate between the Earth queen and any other ruler. Their ideology when it came down to it, was indefensible trash.
I’ve been meaning to re-watch Korra, but I remember even the first time I watched it being a bit disappointed in the “enlightened centrism” where they are trying to paint every conflict as pacifists vs extremists.
I think it’s similar to looking at BioShock 1 and BioShock Infinite. There’s a lot of writers out there who just use politics and ideology as a setting for the conflict rather than actually being central to their message. It’s simply a solid formula to make a villain: take any sort of stance and push it to violent extremes. Comstock is a religious zealot, Andrew Ryan I don’t think ever even mentions spirituality if I remember. Ken Levine’s message in the two games is not about religion, but extremes.
There are benefits. It makes the villains more nuanced and relatable. It gives the protagonist room for doubt and allows for some of the “good” guys to take on antagonistic roles. But Korra also ends up supporting an oppressive regime, and Booker DeWitt gets shoehorned into fights against the people rebelling against his enemy because… Reasons?
I think what made that group such good villains is that you could definitely see their point of view. That said, they left behind a TON of collateral damage, and they didn’t seem to care that innocent people, including children, died in their wake everywhere they went. They were terrorists that happened to have a noble underlying cause.
Even the first season had Amon, the guy that wanted equality between benders and non-benders. At one point we’re even shown that power was cut to a predominantly non-bender neighborhood, and when people went outside to protest to get their power turned back on, they were all rounded up and arrested. Afterwards, when Korra goes and tries to get the people that were arrested set free, she’s told
All equalist suspects are being detained indefinitely. They’ll be freed if and when the task force deems them no longer a threat.
Just in case it wasn’t clear enough by that point that non-benders were treated as second class citizens.
All of the LoK villains were basically correct, and had to be caricatures of their stated beliefs in order to be villains. Amon was one of the better ones IMO though. Zaheer is too unrealistic
Did they make Jamie less of a tool in the show or something? Cause in the books he basically just goes back to doing what he was doing before, minus one hand and plus lots of moping.
They did for a long time, having him gradually come around and begin to redeem himself, and then made an incredibly confusing decision to have him suddenly revert to his old ways right at the very end with no warning whatsoever
Jamie pushed a kid to his death (edit: who miraculously survives to tee up a tone deaf depiction of a character with disabilities but that’s not important right now) and raped his sister over the corpse of their dead child.
Robb was such a fucking idiot… political marriages are a thing and affairs are so common that each region has a specific name for bastards. The series running up to the red wedding read like a Greek tragedy - just one person having a modicum of sense would’ve derailed the whole thing. Lust let loose.
Stannis was wrong first. He was bitter that he was passed over and could never resolve that - if he had he’d be living on easy street. Stubborn fucking pride.
My favorite part about aGoT is just how fucking obviously everyone gets fucked over by their flaws… the only real exception here is Jamie and Sansa - Jamie owes a karmic debt and Sansa was legitimately just “wrong place wrong timed”
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