You got any proof of that beyond “The genocidal state attacking them said so”? And further, since Israel is attacking all refugees, wouldn’t they thus all be enemy combatants? In which case it’d be like the Nazis saying they’re justified having concentration camps because they are at war with the Jews.
This isn’t a war. A powerful and western-backed military state dropping chemical weapons on innocent civilians in response to a terrorist attack that those civilians had nothing to do with isn’t a war. It’s just a slaughter.
Who comes up with these headlines?? Certainly not someone who based it off the video used to support their claim.
This bullshit dilutes real news stories. Headline should read; “IDF bombs refugee camp in attempt to kill Hamas terrorist, knowing it was full of civilians.” That’s the story and it’s fucked alone as it is. Why sensationalize this and make up shit that is objectively untrue??
By delivering highly personalized news content, social media can have an isolating effect, causing people to “increasingly live online — and perhaps in real life — in closed systems of political consensus and like-minded thinking,”
This is the guy who went on record claiming that it is somehow NATO’s fault for Putin’s Russia invading Ukraine. Do not trust him with anything related to politics, he is out of his mind.
"Terrorist’, “in attempt” are both editorialized in their own sense. “Terrorist” is a biased term in a conflict like this, which basically pick sides between two actors, both of which use genocidal rhetoric, target civilians, and want the annihilation of the other (but, bears mentioning, one is a U.S. backed nuclear power, one definitely isn’t). “In attempt” subjectively presents a claimed motive as fact, which doesn’t belong in journalism. An impartial one would read something like, “IDF airstrikes refugee camp in Jabalia, claiming to target Hamas leader, acknowledges civilian presence was known”.
Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization, which just executed a bunch of civilians on a music fest. There is no grey area and no room for interpretation.
True, there is no grey area, because Israel is a genocidal state attempting to steal palestine’s land. Quit reading nothing except US/Israeli propaganda and educate yourself.
I literally don’t understand why people have a hard time with this.
Israel has organized, funded armed forces wearing uniforms. Hamas has teenagers in street clothes hiding in hospitals, schools, and houses.
Israel attempts to protect it’s citizens, Hamas uses human shields.
If you agree with the actions of Hamas, which are designed to maximize fear and force Israeli troops to make hard decisions during combat, you support terrorists. Just admit it. Calling Hamas a terrorist organization isn’t necessarily perjorative. But it is perfectly descriptive.
If you don’t like that you support terrorists, then you have some deep reflecting to do.
It’s so hard to response to comments like this, because honestly your whole perspective is so out of whack. Let’s start from the top -
Israel has organized, funded armed forces wearing uniforms. Hamas has teenagers in street clothes hiding in hospitals, schools, and houses.
Israel has a modern army, U.S. supplied munitions to the tunes of billions of dollars a year, war planes, nuclear bombs, that it uses against teenagers in street clothes. Not in an effort to deescalate violence, but in an effort to deal retribution for it 10 times over each time, which https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#/media/File:Israel-Palestine_conflict_deaths_per_month.png.
Israel attempts to protect it’s citizens, Hamas uses human shields.
First, Haaretz reported the IDF fired on Israeli citizens on Oct. 7 to take out the Hamas militants.
Second, the Israeli state and military - to whatever extent they actually care about their own citizen’s lives - does not care about the lives of Palestinians. You state that Hamas “uses human shields”. First, in a military situation, when you don’t have air superiority or arms superiority, or really any other advantage, there is no other choice. If you have standalone military facilities, they’ll just be destroyed. Second, Israel, in response to whatever degree they’re actually “using human shields”, just kills everyone. See OP. Take this same example - if they killed 50 civilians to kill one Hamas member, multiply that by 25,000 Hamas members and you would end up with 1,250,000 casualties. That is “terrorism”, if anything is. Rather, the term would be “genocide” - something Israeli politicians, including Netanyahu himself, have openly been signalling to the public. Both sides of this conflict, at the extremes, are indeed calling for the genocide of the other side - but one has killed 6 times more than the other.
If you agree with the actions of Hamas, which are designed to maximize fear and force Israeli troops to make hard decisions during combat, you support terrorists.
I get how people think explanations like this are about “justification”, or even “support”. They are not. I’m a pacifist.
The exercise here is to fully understand the circumstances, and why people actually behave in the ways they do, and how they actually fare on objective, universally applied moral standards. It is enough to say that Israel does not come out ahead.
It is also impossible not to apply the same logic to dropping 25,000 bombs on a city, to order a forced evacuation and displace a million people, something which was immediately denounced internationally as a war crime. It boggles my mind how people don’t think that “terrorizes” people - but people with these perspectives have rarely considered the actual experience of somebody who’s made to live in an active warzone.
That was a really long post. Nothing you said refuted anything I said. You’re literally doing the thing I’m talking about.
Do you support Hamas? Just admit it.
After a decade of near-zero conflict Hamas unilaterally launched the largest offensive between the two states in a decade. They murdered babies and tortured and paraded civilian hostages around. They can’t be trusted and should be destroyed.
In the last decade since the last Israel/Palestine “war” in 2014 Israel has had barely any military action against Palestine. It’s not like there’s some kind of genocide happening - if Israel wanted genocide Gaza could be wiped from the planet overnight.
Gaza has no democracy, no legitimate government, no industry, no trade. So no hope for the future. Countries don’t want to take Palestinian refugees because they attempt coups and threaten to destabilize regions.
The instant that Gaza forms a legitimate democratic government the attacks would stop. The moment that Gazans formed a non military state, the conflict stops.
Don’t get me wrong here - the situation for non-radicalized Palestinians is total dog shit. They are the biggest victims here but the blame falls on Hamas in my view.
Well, right off, I don’t appreciate writing a long comment for someone for them to just ignore it.
It’s not like there’s some kind of genocide happening - if Israel wanted genocide Gaza could be wiped from the planet overnight.
It is specifically like there’s some kind of genocide happening. The Israeli government has been openly calling for the destruction of Palestine, displaying maps with Palestine erased to the UN, comparing the Palestinian population to “human animals”, Netanyahu bringing up the biblical “Amalek” which the Old Testament commands the complete destruction of, men, women, children, and farm animals. Half a percent of the population of Gaza is already dead. It’s like you people are waiting for it to be 20% before you say anything.
People like you have no idea what the Israeli right-wing is like. It is the exact same thing as the American evangelicals calling to nuke Iraq or Afghanistan, just Jewish instead of Christian. They are extremely racist and genocidal, and they have a green light.
Comparing both, Israel is a ton worse. Doesn’t matter that they can budget for fancy equipment. And if anything, Israel should know better because of the holocaust.
Make no mistake, I denounce their violence and targeting of civilians without a second thought. The same criteria I apply to anyone. But to portray only them as “terrorists” - while Israel enjoys designations like “democracy” - is not based in reality. Israel has taken more lives by an order of magnitude, aired equally horrific genocidal rhetoric on public TV in the last month alone, and stolen the land of the Palestinian people in what I can only describe as a psychotically self-centered and racist act of ethnic cleansing. One rooted in deep trauma, but nonetheless. And not in some trivial way, but literally to bring the modern state of Israel into existence.
To use a term like that, given the history of Palestinians being dispossessed of their land, shoved into ghettos and starved of all resources, for the “crimes” of existing and of self-defense, or because finally a tiny contingent of them use the very same rhetoric of genocide as the nation extinguishing their civilization, and applied the same indiscriminate targeting of civilians that they had experienced done to them their entire lives - I can only call that racism. You apply the term “terrorist” to the historical victims, but not to the victimizers.
For the record, here’s the actual list of designators of Hamas as a “terrorist” group:
Hamas European Union,[109][150] Australia,[151] Canada,[7] Israel,[152] Japan,[51][17] Paraguay,[54] United Kingdom,[153] United States,[15] Organization of American States[154]
Hamas – Al-Qassam Brigades[L] European Union,[109] Australia,[16] Canada,[7] Israel,[155] Japan,[17] New Zealand,[113] United Kingdom,[14] United States[15]Organization of American States[154]
Notice the entire world outside of the sphere of Western states doesn’t even participate in this. This is a political term, a stereotype that’s used against Muslims, it’s never accurately applied objectively in terms of what organizations cause destruction and death for political aims.
To tack on to all of that - the word has pejoratively being used in the last month to describe the entire population of the Gaza Strip. In the same way we stopped using the various “n” words because people had been beaten to death or hung behind them, we should not be using terminology that’s actively being weaponized in service of genocide. It’s an extremely dangerous thing to participate in.
And yet no one bats an eye when china murders millions of muslims or Armenians are getting wiped out. The west only cares about Palestinians, even when they get warning after warnings of evacuation orders. “Israel says leave north Gaza for fear of your life” “Two weeks pass, plenty of time for anyone to flee” “People who didn’t live are fearing their lives”
Come on. Are they supposed to go in there on foot on basically suicide missions to heavily trapped areas because people are refusing to get out of an active warzone after multiple warnings? How about keeping Hamas responsible for evacuating their civilians when they live in active warzones? Israel is legit the only country in the world who knocks first, and ya’ll are goving them crap for it. Grow up.
People get surprised when people are killed in warzones. 10/10 logic.
Dude what? I guess ya’ll are really just supporting anything which is against the west, no matter how hypocritical it is. Next thing I’ll hear on Lemmy how Ukraine had it coming from Russia.
I am not sure what you want to tell me. But if you have proof that millions of uygurs were killed by China as the guy I replied too said, please send it.
I mean there’s a whole wikipedia page on the camps china built for them…
My point is that there are so many more wrongdoings and innocent people being prosecuted way more harshly than Palestinians in the world, and the world is only focusing on Palestinians since it’s the frontline of the west vs iranian arab society. Those magnitudes of protests weren’t around when china put muslims in camps or killed thousands of protestors.
This whole thing is an assault on western ideology. hamas is Iran2.0 and would massacre those same left-wing europeans or Americans who protest for them, in the name of Islam.
It’s not just whataboutism, I talked about how Israel did literally everything they could considering they’re at war. It’s like ya’ll forgot how wars worked.
Just imagine the allied forces telling germans “hey yo things are about to get ugly here please leave to this area where we’ll bomb way less”. There’s no other country who treats war with such careful hands, and Israel is still getting shit over it.
War is evil. Israel’s wars are the least evil in the world.
Okay buddy, sure. Really easy to talk from a peaceful state without constant threats pointed at you. How about providing actual real solutions to conflicts instead of waiting around, doing nothing then yelling when a war breaks out because of what everyone ignored.
The rest of the world did nothing to provide peace in the region - so those same foreigners to the conflicts shouldn’t point a finger and be surprised when war happens. Either leave the region alone (just like most disputes happening in Africa for example) or actually do something when it’s not wartime. Trying to do something when everything is broken to the point of no return is nothing but virtue signaling.
Those protest should’ve happened when Hamas won elections. Those protests should’ve happened when right wing Israeli government came to power. Those protests should’ve happened when no one did anything about Hamas arming themselves, preparing for war.
Protesting now is doing nothing. Both sides are so fed up with the other that no peaceful resolution, no ceasefire could happen. And screaming about it now is not gonna change that.
You might have some of the most boneheaded remarks I’ve seen here.
That you actively demonstrate your lack of any knowledge about this conflict is truly astounding.
I couldn’t bring myself to type up a message like that when it would show my ass so thoroughly.
And what lack of knowledge about this conflict do I have? Please enlighten me. Did Israelis not tell every possible Gazan “hey, leave this area, your terrorist leaders are hiding here and we don’t like killing civilians”?
It’s like ya’ll leave in a fantasy world where no wrong could ever be done towards a side in a conflict which is weaker. It’s like you forgot how war actually works.
As in apartheid South Africa, Israel classifies its citizens according to ethnicity and privileges one group over all others.
Today, there is a de facto caste system within the territories that Israel controls between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. At the top are Israeli Jews, while Muslim and Christian Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza are at the bottom. Between them are Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinian residents of occupied East Jerusalem. Each has different rights according to the regime Israel has implemented, with Jews enjoying the full benefits of democracy in a “Jewish state,” and Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank and Gaza accorded no political rights whatsoever, being ruled by Israeli military decree.
In apartheid South Africa, blacks weren’t allowed to vote for the national government.
While Palestinian citizens of Israel can vote in Israeli elections, millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories cannot, even though Israel has ruled them for almost half a century.
In apartheid South Africa, the government used a complex pass system to control the movement of blacks, while Israel has instituted an elaborate permit and checkpoint system to control Palestinian movement in the occupied territories.
**In South Africa, blacks were forced into bantustans where they were more easily controlled by the apartheid regime. **
Israel has divided the occupied territories into several isolated territorial units, cut off from one another and from the outside world and surrounded by walls and checkpoints, so that the Israeli army can more easily control the Palestinian population. Meanwhile, within Israel’s internationally recognized pre-1967 borders, approximately 93% of the land is state-owned and controlled by the Israel Land Authority and quasi-governmental agencies like the Jewish National Fund, which systematically discriminate against non-Jewish citizens in its allocation. Combined with private discriminatory rental policies, Israeli government policies have ensured a concentration of the non-Jewish Arab population into several geographically constricted, overcrowded and underserviced ghettos.
In apartheid South Africa there were whites-only areas, while inside Israel there are more than 300 rural Jewish-majority towns that under Israeli law can reject residents who do not meet a vague “social suitability" standard.
Critics, including Human Rights Watch, have slammed the law as an attempt to allow Jewish towns to keep Arabs and other non-Jews out. In the occupied Palestinian territories, Israel has built a network of Israeli-only roads that Palestinians are barred from traveling on, while Jewish settlers living right next door in exclusive housing can use them.
**Many veterans of the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa consider Israel’s treatment of Palestinians to be a form of apartheid. **
One of the most outspoken voices has been that of Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, one of the heroes of the struggle against South African apartheid. Tutu has repeatedly made the comparison, writing in 2012 that Israel’s version of apartheid is actually worse than South Africa’s, stating: “Not only is this group of people [Palestinians] being oppressed more than the apartheid ideologues could ever dream about in South Africa, their very identity and history are being denied and obfuscated.” In June 2013, the recently retired South African ambassador to Israel, Ismail Coovadia, wrote that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is a “replication of apartheid.”
One of the first people to use the word “apartheid” in relation to Israel was Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, who warned following the 1967 War of Israel becoming an “apartheid state” if it retained control of the occupied territories.
In 1999, then-Israeli prime minister and current defense minister Ehud Barak stated: "Every attempt to keep hold of [Israel and the occupied territories] as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state.” In 2010, Barak repeated the apartheid comparison, stating: “As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.”
The 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines apartheid as “an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”
Over the entirety of its 65-year existence, there has been a period of only about one year (1966-67) that Israel has not ruled over large numbers of Palestinians to whom it granted no political rights simply because they are not Jewish. Prior to 1967 and the start of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, Palestinians who remained inside what became Israel in 1948 were ruled by martial law for all but one year, similar to the way that Palestinians in the occupied territories have been ruled ever since.
Inside Israel there are more than 50 laws that privilege Jews or discriminate against non-Jewish Palestinian citizens, affecting everything from immigration and family reunification to land ownership rights.
In the occupied territories, Palestinians have lived under a brutal and repressive Israeli military regime for more than 46 years while Jewish settlers protected by the Israeli army colonize their land and lord it over them. In the words of a 2010 Human Rights Watch report entitled "Separate and Unequal: Israel’s Discriminatory Treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories”
Is there going to be a military solution on the ground?
The answer is, no, there isn’t going to be a military solution. Whatever Israel is engaged in right now is pure revenge. It doesn’t have any strategic value. And it doesn’t have any direction. Israel is just bombing Gaza nonstop, killing as many civilians as it could, simply because it’s being enabled by the international community. No one in the international community is asking the tough questions. Is there going to be a military solution? What will this look like? What will this mean for the region?
Jehad Abusalim, a Palestinian scholar and policy analyst from Gaza. He’s the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund in Washington, D.C. shared the following.
“Let me tell you about my 88-year-old grandmother who lives in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. She is frail, she is old, and she’s ill. She was sleeping in her bed when an Israeli bomb hit the neighborhood where she lives, and she was injured by shrapnel and glass. My cousin, who was taking care of her, had to carry her on his shoulders and run down the stairs, run across the neighborhood as the bombs were falling, carrying a frail 88-year-old grandmother who witnessed more than eight or nine wars so far since she was born. Her entire life has been defined by war, by bloodshed, by aggression, by losing loved ones.
So, I think this entire narrative about north versus south, safe versus unsafe, is nothing but a false narrative that I think we should resist and we should not accept. Nowhere in Gaza is safe. Hundreds of people have been killed and lost their lives regardless of where they reside. That’s why we need a ceasefire now. And this is the demand by Palestinians from Gaza, whether they live in northern Gaza or southern Gaza.”
Kinda blows to shit your “They should have moved someplace safe” narrative.
Classifying Israel as Apartheid is valid if and only if Israel and Palestinians in the west bank define themselves as Israelis and treat themselves as part of the Israeli national. Surprise surprise - they don’t. Neither. Israel classifies Palestinians as basically foreigners, hence no citizen right. And Palestinians don’t try to push against it because all they want is a country of their own. Now, providing a Palestinian state is a whole subject in itself, but basically it’s hard. And not enough foreign power is used to make it happen - that’s the real disservice done to the Palestinians. They never ever talked about Israel accepting them to Israeli society, and no one expects that of them. They’re literal foreigners to Israel, with work permits. Of course they won’t have a government vote.
Another point was the jewish nature of Israel and how it discriminates - and that’s just true. There’s indeed a case to be made of Israel needing to be some part jewish, but Israel politics and laws are fucked up, especially regarding settlements. Let’s hope they get their shit together and have a working government who actually does good.
And lastly, Gazans moving south. Does anybody in this world remember what war’s like? Does anybody remember how many German civilian homes were bombed by the brits in WW2? Does anyone remember the civilian casualties Germany suffered?
War is war. And war is horrible. But expecting a country who just had its worst attack on its land ever to not fight the ones responsible, is extremely privileged by the world. Any state encountering such a big threat on civilian lives would do everything to destroy that threat. And that’s what they’re doing. The war won’t end when all Gazans are dead - it’ll end when Hamas has 0 armed terrorists, and 0 threatening capabilities. And that’s a goal no one can criticize Israel for pursuing. (Obviously you can criticize their methods - but relative to all recent conflicts - they really are avoiding civilian lives as much as possible considering their enemy.)
Keep making excuses for the apartheid state you seem to feel the need to stan for as they conduct an ethnic cleansing. History will look back on you with shame and disdain.
You keep repeating over and over hoping for your point to be true, while it’s just not. Keep crying and keep turning a blind eye to the fact that there are 2 sides here who both have valid goals and disregard one of them just because they’re bigger and pretty much achieved their goal is bullshit or straight up racism.
History is and forever was on the side of the bigger powers, so no. Looks like history would not be on the side of terrorists.
YOU keep equating all Palestinians to Hamas. Amazing how you needed to toss out racism only when it doesn’t agree with how the Israeli govt is acting presently. Criticizing a govt is not racist.
I have not taken the side of Hamas. I have taken the side of not killing civilians on any side of the conflict.
2021 was a major turning point for pro-Palestinian emancipation because in the beginning of 2021 in the spring Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch openly admitted that Israel is an apartheid state Israel had been an apartheid state at that point for 50 plus years, but them admitting this was a major step.
Why do you disagree with Holocaust Scholars, the Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and professionals that dedicate their entire lives to war crimes and human rights violations that Israel is an apartheid state?
How can you sit there and tell me that both Israeli activist organizations dedicated to Human Rights and numerous former Israeli officials have declared Israel to be an apartheid state are wrong? As well as those who have fought and won against the South African apartheid State and have always considered Israel to be an apartheid State?
Why do you think your opinion is more valid?
Sadly you don’t see the people in Gaza and the West Bank as human so it poses no moral issue for you. You are the racist in this situation.
Dude when have I equated all Palestinians to Hamas exactly?? I said that war is horrible and that innocents die in it, and that’s how it always has been. That doesn’t equate to me saying all Palestinians are Hamas. Heck, I think Palestinians are the biggest victims of Hamas, being the main reason for thousands of deaths on innocent Palestinians.
And taking the side of no civilian casualty is just a very privileged position you can say only from thousands of kms away - when your life is threatened, some civilian casualty is justified under war. That’s what I meant when I said war is horrible, and that’s why everyone no matter who you are should try and prevent it always. But saying a side who has pretty rightfully opened a war, and saying they should stop because you’re against all civilian lives lost, is just not helpful and not gonna do anything, since it really is just privileged, having not experienced any part of the conflict yourself. Saying “from my point of view it’s bad so don’t do it” while not looking at it from the point of view of the other party is really just not helpful in understanding or doing anything.
And about the Apartheid, my bad, I talked about Gaza, not the West bank, where the Israelis are actually entering the region and oppressing Palestinians. I still don’t compare it to south africa where it was oppression of your own citizens, but it’s still really horrible and the right wing government of Israel needs to fall. For that I’ll protest all day.
But again, I really see the people of Gaza as prisoners not of Israel, but Hamas. Israel willingly just fell back from the region in 2005, and from then onwards Palestinian civilians were truly doomed by Hamas (Israel literally physically just walked away) to a constant state of war.
Israel’s excuse is pure political theater. This was a war crime. Regardless of who’s coming a war crime - Israel, Hamas, Russia, America, Isis, or anyone else, they should be held to account. But they won’t, which is just so fucked up. But much like politicians and cops, you can’t effectively punish the ones with all the power.
Israel is punching down so hard it’s insane. If they really knew where the Hamas leader was, they could absolutely send in a team or assassin to take him out without the collateral damage. It’s not like they don’t have spec ops or all the money and military resources they could need to do the job. Hell, the pro-Ukraine saboteurs in Russia have been able to destroy military assets and assassinated at least one oligarch, all without hitting a crowd of civilians no matter how anti-Ukraine said civilians might be. Israel has no goddamn excuse. Neither does Hamas. They’re both at fault and the individual persons responsible should be punished.
The mossad is famous for tracking down Nazis who had been in hiding multiple continents away for decades, and they can’t find some dude literally next door.
they could absolutely send in a team or assassin to take him out without the collateral damage.
The Rules of Engagement, especially when it comes to civilians, should be adhered to by Israel.
Israel should send their army in to go after Hamas, instead of trying to blow up Hamas by also blowing up the Palestinians via air bombardment.
Political concerns probably keeps that from happening, as when the Israeli body bags of their fallen soldiers start coming back the Israeli public, who are already upset at the current government for allowing this to happen, would be at a fever pitch to remove the Israeli government, and what that would mean for certain individuals who are facing legal issues.
Why must you add qualifiers? Hamas committing war crimes in attempt to end the genocide being perpetrated on them is not remotely the same thing as Israel committing them in service of said genocide.
Hamas’ excuse for hitting civilians with their rockets is that Israel has made it utterly impossible for them to produce high quality rockets, capable of being aimed. Israels tech superiority means the only way to attack them is via sheer quantity of rockets fired into Israel.
October 7th was not “oops, our weapons are just too imprecise to aim properly”. It was an up close and personal direct violent attack on civilians explicitly designed to avoid any police or military targets.
So it’s absolutely appropriate to shame Israeli falling to apply precision attacks and Hamas for quite deliberately targeting noncombatants.
I think Israel is losing the information war on this recent crisis. They’re trying to defend the indefensible. There’s no way to spin “we dropped a bomb on a refugee camp” into something acceptable. And people are seeing the bullshit for what it is.
They’ve been doing that for years. They shot Shireen Abu Akleh, showed up at her funeral to beat the shit out of the people carrying her coffin, and then just recently bulldozed the memorial to her.
they might be losing the information war but they’ll always have the support of the governments of the english speaking world and they don’t actually need to win the information war. they’re winning the kill-the-other-guys war and no one who can do anything about it wants to.
Even Western governments are getting uncomfortable about this. I think Israel overestimates just how far they can go before the West starts to consider pulling their support.
Even if the West “starts to consider” maybe not wholeheartedly backing Israel’s brutal actions, it will be some time before they do anything about it, if they ever do. Until then Israel will continue killing.
LoL. Western governments still aren’t even saying “please stop” let alone pulling the billions in funding that’s being used to do this.
I expect Israel just out and out kill everyone is Gaza this time and take the land thinking it will end this problem forever. I expect in 10 years they’ll figure out they failed when another attack happens.
How will that be a failure? They’ll have finished the ethnic cleansing of the region and added more land. Another terrorist attack that kills a few people will just give them another casus belli to do another genocide somewhere else, probably in the west bank next.
They are only winning if killing civilians is winning. It isn’t, France killed tens of thousands of Algerians before being promptly defeated and expelled. Same thing happened in Vietnam. The Palestinian resistance is inflicting huge losses in the Israeli army. Scores of destroyed tanks and dead israeli soldiers every day
They will literally want a blood price measured in tens of thousands of bodies. At the funeral of mass murderer Baruch Goldstein a Rabby famously said “one million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail”
I’m not downplaying the deaths of 10,000 people or that 30,000 have been injured. There are over a million displaced and over 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza, more in the West Bank and more in the surrounding countries.
Israel cannot win this. It is impossible to accomplish their genocide. That’s after weeks of bombing spending who knows how much on munitions. Logistically it’s impossible.
They can’t genocide the entire Palestinian people and they are not going to be able to expel the gazans. They think that murdering thousands will deter Palestinians from resisting, but that’s hugely incorrect. We can, as colonized people have shown before us, withstand huge bloodshed. Colonizers cannot. The scale of resistance is only increasing, and once it reaches the tipping point of inflicting what the Israelis can’t endure, this occupation will be over.
Posted this above but I’ll copy here, since you seem to be making the same mistake as Wolf.
Friendly reminder this is an urban center with 50k people normally living in it, with permanent concrete buildings. This is not a bunch of tents and soup pots.
I’m not the one you responded to, I don’t hate Jews. What I do hate is people like you excusing the killing of civilians as acceptable collateral for the greater good. Fuck off!
I suppose if you hate Jews enough anything can look like anything.
If you think that one being able make bombing a refugee camp that was known to be populated “look” like genocide proves that person hates Jews, then I don’t know what to tell you.
They did not kill a battalion. Not even Israel is claiming that. They may have killed a battalion commander. And Israel still isn’t letting refugees flee through their lines so that’s still a terroristic threat not a warning.
Israel’s military has been calling for civilians to leave northern Gaza since airstrikes began. But some are too old or ill to travel. Others have weighed up dangers including attacks on convoys heading south and airstrikes in areas in the south that Israel designated “safer” zones, and decided to stay.
They really screwed the pooch on this one from a messaging stance. Stepping back from the emotions and the war crimes and just looking at their propaganda, it’s just being handled sloppily. Propaganda has always been Israel’s superpower, and they’re doing a terrible job of it.
You don’t defend the bombing of a refugee camp by saying “There may have been tunnels or infrastructure.”
At this point you just lie and say you know there were military objectives. Or pull a play from the US and count the bodies and claim that any body of a “military-age male” was a combatant.
Admitting on international television that you knowingly and intentionally bombed a bunch of civilians you absolutely knew you were killing just in case there might be bad guys among them is a bad look.
Propaganda has always been Israel’s superpower, and they’re doing a terrible job of it.
They’re using the exact same kind of messaging they’re using internally to their own right-wing and scared centre, “tough guys making hard decisions to keep you safe” kind of stuff. To people who went on school trips to Auschwitz with armed Israeli security – not because visiting Poland wouldn’t be safe, but out of a mixture of security theatre and propaganda. It just doesn’t work if you aren’t part of that particular information bubble. They seem to have forgotten that it doesn’t even work on the Israeli left wing so why should it work on random people from elsewhere.
Also stunts like the yellow stars in the security council. Come the fuck on crocodile-teared self-victimisation can’t possibly be more blatant, and it’s fucking disgusting how they trivialise the Holocaust with that shit.
I think it’s a combination of pushing boundaries of tactics that were previously working well enough for them and not realising that over time, more and more people become aware that Israel is a present day colonial country still doing some of the evil shit we’re not proud of our own countries for doing in the past. And people are more willing to challenge the anti-semitism accusations because there’s a huge difference between hating people for existing and hating what an authoritarian power is doing to a population it hates for not quietly letting them take more and more of their land.
Not to mention I don’t think the response to 9/11 was a good one either and evoking that seems to be one of the prongs of their propaganda attack. There’s a comment a bit higher up doing that exactly, but it’s kinda funny because in the first paragraph it sounds like it’s making a 9/11 reference ironically, but then the 2nd paragraph shows it was serious.
At this point you just lie and say you know there were military objectives. Or pull a play from the US and count the bodies and claim that any body of a “military-age male” was a combatant.
One of them tried that same claim in an interview yesterday. Not Hecht, but an older guy - he said, seeing the video of the cleanup effort (men sorting through rubble), “a lot of those look like military age males”.
Yeah, but it’s pretty damning to see all the astroturfing on social media, blacklisting from companies, and crackdowns on peaceful protests by governments.
I think we’re witnessing one big Streisand-effect here where people are fed up at having others choose what they can see and what they can say.
I’m very proud at how the narrative didn’t snowball in Israel’s favor. If anything, this caused people who blindly supported Israel to learn more about the history of the region and why there is conflict in the first place.
If you weren’t anti-Zionist before, you’re probably one now.
"There could be infrastructure there, there could be tunnels there. We’re still looking into it.”
So… you bombed this refugee area, didn’t give a fuck… you got the target you wanted along with a bunch of civilians. Now, after the fact, you are searching for more justifications than you had before the attack was sanctioned.
What the fuck. They may as well just say “tell us what you need to hear for this to be okay, and we’ll say it”.
Memba when the cops broke into Bo Jean’s apartment, shot him in the face while he was sitting on his couch eating ice cream, then searched the apartment they broke into and had a big press conference about how he had <1 gram of marijuana?
Y’all know how american cops and the IDF trade people, training and techniques back and forth all the time?
I can imagine the news host already, “we don’t know what could have happened if we didn’t shoot this guy for <1 gram of hardcore addictive cannabis. Anything could have happened, just imagine, kids walking the streets, high as a kite, completely oblivious to how smelly and antisocial they would be. But only that, but they could be run over if I were to drink drive. If not me, someone else could, absolutely incredibly dangerous substances out there I tell you”
Less openly opinionated, more clinical and detached.
An officer-adjacent ballistic event resulted in a cessation of vitality in a known drug offender. No further details have been released at this time.
Think about how George Floyd was just ‘a counterfeiting suspect who overdosed on fentanyl’ until we saw the video where they knelt on his neck for minutes after he’s gone limp. The state uses passive, detached, clinical language to create distance between situations and the people responsible for creating them, and the news is an extension of the state.
So like, is the same position something like: I support Israel but condemn their atrocities while pursuing security and justice? I don’t understand how so many people have a strong opinion on this situation. My opinion is that I’m not educated enough to have one…
It’s closely linked to the Christian culture. I think in Revelation or something Israel was the good guys during Armageddon, and the US wants to always be aligned with them for that reason. Whatever Israel does is “the good guys”. More nonsense from religion, yay.
the evangelical christians think this war means the second coming of jesus is imminent. so they are a little horrified but mostly all excited about it.
edit - and in case anyone thinks i’m making this shit up, i’m surrounded by these people and have been my whole life. i talk to them and i see their media and social media. their eyes light up.
Not all christians share that mindset, but you are absolutely right. Some of them are just way too hyped for the apocalypse. I wonder if they think they’ll get the ez pass or if they’ll suffer with the rest of us until the big man shows up.
Yeah idk it seems to be some kind of liberal purity test these days. Many liberals respect the power of tradition, and religious ideology, even if they don’t believe the text.
Except it’s not even an educated Christian take. Israel rejected the Messiah and continue to. At no time does the Bible suggest the end-time Israel is acting according to God’s will. They are experiencing a period of discipline outside of his will, just as they did in the OT. The Bible does teach God will ultimately redeem them but not before great suffering on their part, and it never suggests the nation is in anyway pleasing him before that.
Christians offering unqualified support to the Israeli government aren’t representing what their own faith teaches.
No it’s not. Israel serves the us and the west’s geopolitical interests and that is why they support them. Whatever propagandistic justifications they put out for why people should support Israel are irrelevant.
They all sound like assholes to me. I just support the innocent people who happen to live in the neighborhood, and oppose both military forces. That’s still an option.
I like this option. My only question is how do you logistically/as a foreign government do this? Like what should I hope my country does for this situation?
I wouldn’t say I’m ignorant, just admitting I don’t know enough to know how to feel. The pro Israel and pro Palestine people both make sense to me at times lol
What is the actual point of you scrolling through day old posts calling people teenagers. Like sick burn dude, way to get out there and correct the record with racist/ageist bullshit.
Ah, got you. Thanks for clarification. Yes, I agree. Gawd almighty absolutely forbids using our own tax dollars for such ungodly things like feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked or looking out for prisoners.
It’s sort of like a “Bruce Wayne v. Court of Owls” situation. Bruce Wayne has his philanthropy actively countered by a group that’s basically the Illuminati, this “Court of Owls” because, I’m guessing there’s an Eldritch horror that slumbers so long as Gotham suffers, but would awaken if the rich actually did anything to help the poor.
EDIT: Okay, so I found out this “Court of Owls” not only doesn’t care about the poor, they don’t care about the world in general. They serve an evil Bat-God named Barbatos who wants to use Bruce Wayne as a conduit to emerge in the world.
Bruce Wayne would definitely make it into Murica heaven. Superman might make it into Jesus heaven (which I would assume would be loving yourself, if the Kingdom of heaven is actually within us, which it is, in my experience).
Yes but you shouldn’t bring up hypocrisy here. Stopping killing now is worthwhile regardless of what various countries have done years and decades ago.
That’s generally good advice, but on a broad level it’s completely impossible. There’s no way that everyone can know all of history. We all have to learn little parts at different times in our lives, according to our own priorities and values. Also, quite obviously, forgetting the past does not always lead to repeats.
I saw this all the time on reddit. Some people seem to have the need to be involved in conversations but don’t have anything worthwhile, intelligent, or even just interesting or entertaining to say. They instead tend to pick an aspect of a comment, often take it out of context, then shit all over it but not in a way that’s constructive, helpful, or insightful whatsoever. They often don’t seem to really even have a point other than telling you you’re wrong. I’m pretty sure that’s what we’re seeing here.
I suggest at most calling them out on their behavior but otherwise just not engaging. They’re basically trolls, even if they don’t realize it themselves, so it’s not worth the trouble and there’s no way to ‘win’.
In this sense they absolutely are. No different than Iraqis, Afghans, Panamanians, Vietnamese… etc.
In every other way, no - Putin can end this war any damn time he feels like. But that doesn’t mean the US military-industrial complex isn’t going to milk this for all it’s worth.
Nah, you just framed the Russians as victims equivalent to the Palestinians and now you just did a 180 to pretend you meant to frame Russia as the aggressor when you actually didn’t. You know we can read your text, right?
Killing the palestinians (and russians) don’t matter to them it’s just another funnel from our effort into their pockets.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt with you shills, is it?
It’s not gonna work here, though. For all that Lemmy sucks ass, at least the users have a modicum of common sense. Good luck overcoming that. Dasvidaniya
To be fair, they were talking about war profiteering, not genocide. We are definitely happy with Ukraine being at war with Russia as far as war profiteering goes. And as much as Putin sucks, and any country may suck, it doesn’t mean their citizens should be killed endlessly. The people there are still human, even if their leaders are terrible. But rather than doing something to try and stop the war, the US would rather use it to funnel money to our arms dealers. Which is a problem, even if the enemy is bad, killing all the Russians should never be the goal. Stopping the war should.
I am not implying that at all obviously. No one is. In fact I don’t know a single pro-Ukraine person who can’t differentiate between Putin’s regime and the Russian people.
Hamas fires thousands of rockets at Israeli, if it didn’t have iron dome they’d have to prevent Gaza from firing the missiles, which means bombing Hamas and the civilians they hide behind
Unfortunately, until we get money out of politics, voting doesn’t really matter.
The ruling class can just funnel more money to the opposing side to get them elected. They’ve already got it down to a science so they don’t spend more than they need to.
They haven’t even scratched the surface of how much money they can spend to control elections. It’s all just the bare-minimum to them, like maximizing profit.
Taxes aren’t what’s stopping us from having health care. We already spend more taxes on health care per capita than countries with single payer health care. (Not that changes that we could be using our taxes better, but the myth that we would spend more taxes to get single payer needs to be dispelled.)
The claim doesn’t seem right. We do spend far more on healthcare than other nations overall and our taxed spending on healthcare seems comparable to other rich nations like Japan, though that’s only a fraction of our total spending - most is private cost. Quick back of napkin math says taxes directly spend ~4k a year/capita on healthcare expenses, mostly Medicare, and single-payer systems tend to cost about ~6k total. Data is a little old. Correct me if I’m reading wrong.
Hold on. I am in complete agreement that US healthcare spending is batshit crazy. I was just doubtful that our TAXED healthcare spending was more than other countries with single payer. All our spending is private.
Nope. It’s not. That money they hand Israel? Completely sucked out of their thumb - I literally use the massive handouts the US gives Israel as a way to debunk the “but printing money causes inflation!” crowd.
Btw, that is an actual example of a handout - ie, not the (alleged) “handouts” right-wing pundits start whining about whenever the issue of social services come up.
Of course, they could just as easily spend all that invented money to give you healthcare - but they won’t… that’s not how class warfare works.
Nope. Your taxes doesn’t even pay for the US military - it’s all just money they invent. Your taxes are spent by the state you live in - roads, hospitals… that kind of stuff.
When it comes to their precious military - and their precious neocolonialist shitfuckery they call “foreign policy” - they don’t rely on you.
ntg but can you point me in the direction of your sources for that? I’m kind of lazy and google/my google fu sucks for me recently. no big prob if you can’t though
Not “completely”. They spend into a deficit every year, which is partially financed with tax and partially financed with debt obligations. It’s more that any spending is paid for 50% tax and 50% “indirect inflation tax” later, or whatever the exact numbers are (I stopped keeping track).
Some of the mandatory budget and discretionary non-defense budget can be directly or indirectly linked to military purposes, but regardless, the majority of the budget is social programs.
i have some idea. do I know where every cent goes? no. the government, most governments, are these giant ponderous masses of interwoven bureaucracy, striving to complete many diverse goals. the various goals are often at odds with each other.
I’m an ardent supporter of Israel and their right to defend themselves in these extreme times. This isn’t that.
This is not okay. Targeting the tunnels is understandable. Targeting their leadership is understandable. Targeting a refugee camp is not acceptable, it’s the sort of thing Hamas would do and I can’t believe they’ve gone that far.
Taking an anti-genocide slogan used by Jews across the world and deriding it as hypocritical because one specific country of Jews is full of right wing shit bags… That’s uh… that’s something, anyway.
Tragically, one side had been receiving all kinds of war support for generations now and it’s incredibly imbalanced.
This is why people are saying Israel and the US created this crisis, because we’ve spent generations militarizing an apartheid state that subjugates and abuses Palestinians. Israel wanted to strengthen Hamas as a way to undermine the strength of a Palestinian state in Gaza:
those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria.
Israel and the Western Allies have intentionally fed the flames of this conflict in order to consolidate power in the middle east.
See that’s what I don’t get Israel created Hamas but nobody seems to acknowledge that. Decades of mistreatment bombings of course they’re going to eventually fight back.
If you want to target the Hamas leaders then send in special forces to take them out in Qatar and other countries they hide out in. Send in precision teams to take the tunnels out without destroying towns above.
Don’t kill 30,000 civilians for a handful of actual fighters.
A few weeks ago I didn’t think I would have made so many genocide references.
A few years ago you would have been immediately banned for making such references. The west has been covering for Israel’s crimes for seventy plus years now.
Sadly, they’re not going to stop until Hamas does or they’re destroyed. Just today I was watching an interview where Hamas’ second in command was saying they’re going to continue to do 10/7 type attacks until Israel doesn’t exist anymore. If you expect Israel’s current government to sit back and let that happen, you’re seriously mistaken. No country on earth would allow a neighbor to fire rockets randomly at civilians and call for their people to continue to murder Jews.
Hamas has made clear they are an existential threat to Israel and sadly, the Israeli government is taking the approach of meeting Hamas on their terms of engagement. It’s getting harder to blame them but I do hope they would be better than the savages who are calling for the death of an entire ethnic group.
You mean returning hero who decolonized the region returning it to it’s rightful heritage? Israel is the greatest decolonization effort the world has ever seen.
Riiight… and the white supremacists that ran Apartheid-South Africa and Rhodesia was just returning to claim their “homeland,” too, amirite?
Jews are indigenous to Judea.
There is no such thing as an “indigenous” Israeli, genius - Israelis are about as “indigenous” as their Crusader predecessors are.
60% of Israel is non white
Funny how colonized spaces have this kind of thing in common, eh?
Get your facts straight before you go spouting your Anti Semitic bullshit.
The term you’re looking for is antisemitic, not “Anti Semitic” - learn how to spell something before feigning expertise in it. Once you’ve absorbed that, we can discuss how Zionism has always been an inherently antisemitic ideology invented by Christian antisemites, okay?
Nothing you’ve posted is backed by facts. Facts are Jews were there first. Facts are more than half of Israelis are Arab or non European, putting your Colonial argument in the trash
Your opinions, are based in your Anti Semitic Jew hatred, not surprised that a wannabe grammar Nazi is also a full on Nazi.
Save your fairy tales for your Nazi brethren, right-winger. There were Jewish people in Europe long before anyone there even called themselves Christian - so which part of Europe will you hand over to Jewish people to build an ethno-state with? I say… Switzerland should do very nicely, don’t you think?
Of course there were Jews in Europe before Christians LoL, Christianity is just a cheap Chinese knock off of Judaism. That in no way invalidates the history of the Israelite people. Even the fucking Pharaoh’s talked about the Jews in Judea.
There’s no need to hand Europe over, Israel is home and it’s staying that way. ;)
Christianity is just a cheap Chinese knock off of Judaism
Ooooh… please say that louder. Scream it from the rooftops. Maybe all the christofash will start thinking twice about supporting your precious little white supremacist kapo state - and if that happens, bye bye Israel.
Is it the kind of thing Hamas would do I do know it’s the kind of thing Israel does and this isn’t the first. It’s easy to say oh we killed civilians but we share targeting tunnels or something.
Sounds like they got 50 Hamas operatives among the 150.
Hamas needs to stop hiding amongst the civilians. If they’re even civilians, I’m seeing far more cheering than protesting in the videos coming out of the strip.
They stopped defending themselves roughly 3 days before the Hamas attack. Not sure what level of genocide was comfortable to you?
Those tunnels were always a propaganda tool of Israel too, by the way. They were built because of the total blockade of Gaza that made tunnels the only method for Palestinians to trade with Israel and the wider world (Remember Israel blockades Gaza’s access to the ocean too!). If these were purely military in their purpose, Israel would’ve cleared them all out a long time ago but the reality is that these tunnels were a benefit to the economy of both sides.
Hamas using those tunnels to resist the Israeli occupation and cleansing of Palestinian communities is a side-effect, sure, but you’re clearly too receptive of the propaganda of Israel if you think tunnels are an excuse for indiscriminate bombing of civilian infrastructure.
Are you joking right now? Those tunnels, aka the Hamas highway are absolutely fair game in this war. Just like Ukraine destroyed infrastructure to hinder the Russians advancing, the routes of supply are a part of the theatre of war and always have been.
As sad as it is, this bombing wasn’t indiscriminate. They had a large number of targets including high value ones located in the area. The area is sitting on top of a tunnel system known to be used to traffic materials used to attack Israel. I don’t agree with Israel bombing a refugee camp but I also don’t agree Hamas putting all of those people intentionally at risk like they intentionally did.
As has been noted countless times, when Hamas stops using human shields, this madness will stop much faster.
Hamas hasn’t even been in control of half of palestine for decades and you know what happened there? MORE violence against the occupied palestinians. MORE displacement. MORE settlement and murder.
The part Zionist apologists wont admit is that Hamas and their armed resistance is the only reason Gaza has survived as long as it has. Making colonists afraid of setting foot in Gaza is the only reason there’s any palestine left to fight over.
If Israel disappeared tomorrow, the genocide stops. If Hamas disappeared tomorrow, the genocide continues.
Those are the stakes. But don’t let me stop you cheering on the death of children behind the crocodile tears of “but hamas”.
This is the sort of propaganda that I just have to laugh at. History proves you entirely wrong, and unfortunately because of the likes of you and your bigoted brethren, Israel isn’t going to have a choice but to wipe Hamas entirely off the map. You’re probably one of those people who claim Hamas doesn’t operate out of the West Bank. Hamas will take a lot of civilians with them, including the cancer patients in desperate need of the fuel Hamas is stockpiling but they’re gone. It’s only a matter of time now that Gaza city has been encircled.
You love the blood shed. You love stoking the flames of hate. You’re getting what you wished for, I hope you enjoy it. No sane person would.
Lmfao you started this threat pretending the violence was too much. You’re almost gagging at the opportunity to hop on a merkava tank and crush what’s left of Gaza city into dust. How many dead kids will make you happy? because earlier you looked like you’d have said 0 but once you’re pushed even slightly you’re practically salivating for death as long as the fascists tell you one of the dead was a bad guy.
You’re the blood thirsty one calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s the rhetoric that’s going to sadly lead to many people dying.
That’s on you and your Anti-semitic ilk. Your the people willing to spill the blood of the Palestinians in your hatred of Jews, and now the Jews are simply fed up and are meeting your kind on your level.
You’re kind just isn’t good enough to come out alive here.
Calling for a ceasefire…is literally calling for Jews to accept their slaughter. Hamas said just YESTERDAY, they intend on continuing to murder Jews until Israel has been destroyed.
If you can’t see how that lopsided ‘accountability’ is deeply Anti Semitic, that’s your problem.
Calling out the Israeli government for its actions is far different from from the country shouldn’t exist or that it should stop defending itself when the other party has made clear they will continue to murder if that happens. I’ve yet to see the Palestinian supporters calling for Hamas to stop sending rockets into Israel. 6000 by last count.
It’s a perfect solution when all you need is a boogieman to “protect the nation” against. You get to show that you hurt the boogieman, and the wounds you inflict ensure the boogieman’s continuous survival.
It is wrong to kill people but we have the death penalty for killers.
It is wrong to imprison people but we have prisons for criminals
Any thinking person can see from the start that Muslims are not willing to live on peace with Jews or anywhere whereas Israel has always been willing to live in peace
Any thinking person can see from the start that Muslims are not willing to live on peace with Jews or anywhere whereas Israel has always been willing to live in peace
Israel’s “peace” is built upon land they violently seized from the Palestinians, from 1948 until today.
You can look up the 1948 partition plan for starters, which Israel accepted and arabs went to war over. Israel ‘violently seized’ the land by defending themselves.
Under the British mandate, the Ottoman empire there were caps and restrictions on how many Jews could live in Palestine while there were none on Muslims. In every Muslim country there were discriminatory laws against Jews.
The Jewish was position was that there is some state to which Jews are free to immigrate, ie the Jews fleeing Europe. There have always been Jews in Palestine, Jews are the natives, but not a state for 2000 years.
In the Jewish state arabs live freely and it was always the position of Jews that arabs can live freely in Israel and that there can be a Palestinian state (in addition to Jordan which was a part of Palestine)
The Arab position- based on islam- is there can be no Jewish state at all. They are fascist, they think the whole world should be Islamic. They launch terror attacks all over the world against non muslims- in India, armenia, Europe, the USA, Africa…
No pals were displaced before the war. The area in the south of israel- the negev- is a desert where very few people lived and no one lived at the time.
There have always been Jews in Palestine, your assumption is that vacant, uninhabited, never developed land is somehow reserved for arabs when Jews are the native people of the land.
The Jewish position is that there be some land for Jews in israel- the land to which they are native- and the Muslim position is that there be none, not 1 inch, that it is all a Muslim state like all the other Muslim states which have had discriminatory laws against Jews for centuries.
All the further partitions are in the context of Arab wars against Israel, until 1967 Jordan controlled the west bank, Egypt Gaza, yet they did not make a Palestinian state… They launched wars against Israel in 1956, 67, 73…
Yes inside israel arabs live freely and don’t want to leave are be a part of Palestine, pals have been offered states on the WB etc… Numerous times and have always rejected.
Israel has been doing this since 1949 - I think the Palestinians by now know the Israelis didn’t do white supremacist settler-colonialism in order to be their friends.
Oh poor Palestinians had no choice but to kidnap, rape and murder over a thousand people. Israel provoked them by bombing them, afterwards. Provocation in hindsight or something.
Oh, poor Israelis, all they were doing was conducting a genocide of an entire people for 75 years, all this death is totally unwarranted!
I refuse to feel sorry for any Israeli killed by anyone, so long as they’re hellbent on wiping Arabs off the planet. Those babies that were killed were just future IDF soldiers, waiting for their chance to put a boot on a Palestinian neck and a bullet in their brain.
I hope you see the irony of your comment. You do see it, right? I’m not gonna say you’re wrong, because you’re not. But you know what? Hurting your oppressors feels so good. And it’s better to die on your feet with a gun in your bloody hands, then laying on the ground with a boot on your neck.
I was going for a simple reply, that neither atrocity makes the other right, something which cuts both ways since historic times in this matter - but that statemrnt of yours, that’s off the deep end.
Frankly, the very notion of someone who “feels so good” killing babies, it disgusts me.
Israel is really in the drivers seat of this conflict though. You can imagine a reality where they had opened borders with Gaza and given them voices in the government. Where they’re all these foreign funds for to build schools and libraries and pumping in tvs and video games and internet and helping keep the streets safe, and where it’s much harder for a kid to say “I’m going to join a millitant groups” and where, even if Palestine is fighting it, we’re moving towards peace. There’s still violence from time to time, but it’s declining.
You cant imagine the same story with Palestine. They have no power in the current relationship to give anything to Israel afaik. They can’t build schools there even if they wanted to. So (to some extent, and acknowledging that it’s horrible horrible horrible for the people involved) the lashing out isn’t surprising there. It’s not good, but also not surprising. The two atrocities are very very different (imo).
I admire your optimism, I really do. When imagining a reality where Israel opens its borders to Gaza, what I see is Israel descended into a warzone - hundreds of thousands of dead Israelis, slaughtered in schools, homes, streets and hospitals in the name of muslim holy war, jewish genocide and the mantra of Palestine “from the river to the sea”.
It’s an entirely different situation in the West Bank, which some might consider odd, given that Gaza has essentially been a sovereign state, whilst the W.B has been under tight Israeli control. The W.B Palestinians have amongst the highest living standards in the entire Middle East, with schools, universities, internet and TVs. Indeed, it is quite possible that the situation in Gaza would’ve been far better had Israel not withdrawn in '05, but it is hard to make predictions about alternate timelines.
I think it has been very clear what Israel wants from peace, in fact they’ve already made it once, with Egypt. In exchange for recognition, the promise of peace and a few other concessions, they ceded an area of land larger than modern-day Israel.
That is the key point that palestinian leadership has never been willing to offer in negotiation - recognition of Israel (as rightful owner of its territories) and the promise of peace (officially renouncing any claims over those same territories).
Yeah but pals have been offered peace and a state from the beginning. They are at war because they have declared war against the existence of Jews. They deserve to die at this point
So you don’t think there should be any Jewish state when they’re are dozens of Muslim states and are against Israelis defending themselves. You are a fascist
Don’t you dare blame the Jews for the actions of the Israeli government, you sick antisemitic fuck. Take that nazi propaganda out of here. The only good nazi is a dead nazi, and you and everyone who thinks like you should be lined up against a wall and shot.
All the people that never had a word to say in defense of Palestinians in the decades prior, who as of Oct 7 are experts on the region and know exactly how Hamas appeared out of the clear blue sky that very morning, while Israel was sending shipments of marshmallow dreams and unicorns to Palestine for the decades prior.
They were expelled because they started a war, Israel accepted the partition whereas pals did not. Israel was explicit they did not want to displace anyone. Many arabs live in Israel to this day. If there was no war there would have been no expulsion.
Pals have been offered states numerous times and even offered right of return for some refugees with compensation to the rest.
And even though you did not answer my question I will answer yours- no I do not think the arabs who were forced out in a war and who have been fighting a war since then should be allowed back en masse when they openly say they wish to destroy Israel. And if you want to re visit past injustices to say there are some arabs who should return, have land given back, then you also need to consider the Jews which were kicked out of the west bank like from Hebron and the Jews which were kicked out of Arab countries and of course the Jews which were kicked out of Europe. If you launch a war, lose , you can’t ask for a do ever where you get everything back and keep everything you took, it is ridiculous. At the outset the Jews were willing to accept a tiny state, that they were fleeing from the Holocaust, that Jews were living in refugee camps until 1948 when Israel was established. That Jews are the natives of the land, were making it prosperous, are integral to the history, and the arabs sided with the Nazis in WW2. They are truly disgusting, is it really so horrible to live around Jews , in their native land. You think the fact the pals had to move 50 miles down the road is some horrible injustice ?
From the start of the conflict and throughout the modern era Israel has always been willing to live in peace with the pals despite their belligerence making numerous offers. Jews never asked for welfare like the Muslim immigrants coming to Europe, they developed the land and caused many arabs to come. It is the pals who have belligerent, following fundamentalist islam saying there can be no Jewish state, everywhere has to be a Muslim state.
OK, so by your same logic, if Egypt had a huge turn of heart, suddenly plowed through Israel, expelled all its residents, they wouldn’t have a right to return either, right? Let’s even say Israel started a war first, and then that happened. That’d be OK by your standards, right?
Not to even imply your standards are correct, because they’re fucking horrific, you’re trying to justify ethnic cleansing.
and the arabs sided with the Nazis in WW2.
You might be thinking of Lehi, the pre-Israeli militant group that got incorporated into the IDF.
First of all Egypt has fought many wars against Israel… It is after Israel defeated them that they were willing to accept peace deals.
And what you fail to grasp is it is the arabs who started a war, tried to destroy Israel and kill Jews, and since they are dangerous were forced to leave and since they openly say they wish to destroy Israel are not allowed to return. Should Israel let them return to destroy Israel ?
You don’t seem able to accept the fact that from the outset Jews were willing to live in peace with arbas and the Muslims were not. No matter how far back you go- you can go back to 1948, you can go back the ottoman and Egyptian caliphates which had discriminatory laws against Jews. You can go back to ancient history and look at the fundamental aspects of the religion. Islam is a fascist religion, it says to conquer the entire world in the name of islam. That just like in Iran and Gaza that they kill gays, they kill a woman who doesn’t cover her head, that a small group fundamentalists control the entire economy and use every resource for terrorism, so to should it be in the rest of the world. The modem state of Israel is not government by religious Judaism and if it was, Judaism does not say the entire world needs to be Jewish.
Islam is fascist, that’s why there is this conflict along with all the other conflicts they have with many nations, with the west, with India etc… With themselves with shia and sunni…
Hey I appreciate you took the time to respond and at least make arguments, you have more intellect than 99% of the site which isn’t saying much
But you have far to go, if you want to increase your intellect you have to accept facts and truth even if it challenges what you have as an established belief. That is why you have a hard time to debate me, because I have heard the arguments and adjusted my views many times.
You should ask yourself why you are such an expert on the israeli-pal conflict and probably don’t know as much as the complex histories of Lebanon, syria, Iraq… All the sectarian violence, expulsions, terrorism, oppression etc… what happened in Lebanon when they tried a joint Muslim christian nation. Or the entire continent of Africa, you’ll find that the pals are really not the greatest tragedy of humanity and yet it is all the UN seems to be concerned about, all the slogan yelling mob cares about.
if the palestinian state ceases to exist, then they’re just back to being normal terrorists like hamas… presumably they’ll have to integrate into Egyptian society, etc
I no longer have the cognitive dissonance to condemn any Palestinian for resisting Israel.
If you fight against Israel, you’re called Hamas - No matter who you are or what your opinions are. I simply will not condemn Hamas knowing that most of the “Hamas” being targeted at actually children armed with nothing more than stones and grief. I won’t condemn people driven to violence and aggression by a regime that is a million times more violent and aggressive.
Hamas was a tool of Israel and the people who spend endless days arguing over Hamas are the victims of this tool - The only way to defeat the ghost of Hamas is to support them. Only then does the Israeli propaganda fall apart, and thus the necessity of Israel to maintain Hamas as a scapegoat for terror.
If you fight against Israel, you’re called Hamas - No matter who you are or what your opinions are. Now apply this to pretty much ANY social issue today and you’ve now understood how we got where we are.
That’s not how colonialist warfare - oops, sorry, I meant to say “counter-terrorism” - works. You don’t wage “counter-terrorism” against the people actively resisting the colonialist power - that’s ineffective - instead, you wage war against the people the resistance originates from and exists within. That’s the part of “people’s war” that gets left unsaid - it works both ways. That is the reason why so much “counter-terrorism” looks no different than genocide - genocide is the only true effective means of dealing with stubborn and organised anti-colonial resistance.
edit: I have to add - this is the reason why talk of “civilians” is mere propaganda and little else - the nature of colonialist warfare fundamentally rejects concepts such as “civilian” and “combatant.” You are either a member of the “other” or you are not - it’s the reason why white supremacism is such a usefult ideology for colonizers.
Civillians exist and the majority in Gaza do not support Hamas as of their most recent election, probably even less now. You know that unless you actually adhere to the self identifying white supremacist philosophy you just spouted, so I don’t see any point in your comment.
As I have already explained to you… white supremacist settler-colonialist states do not distinguish between civilians and combatants - the enemy is a racialized other who must either be enslaved, repressed and/or exterminated. That is it. End of story - white supremacism doesn’t work any other way and never has.
If you live in the US, you should have no trouble understanding this - unless your history teachers fell down on the job or had a good reason to misinform you.
majority in Gaza do not support Hamas
Most people in Vietnam did not support Ho Chi Minh - but they sure as hell knew who it was that was handing out AKs when colonizers started indiscriminately napalming their villages, didn’t they?
As I have already explained to you… white supremacist settler-colonialist states do not distinguish between civilians and combatants - the enemy is a racialized other who must either be enslaved, repressed and/or exterminated. That is it. End of story - white supremacism doesn’t work any other way and never has.
As I have already explained to you, I don’t give a fuck what white supremacist settler-colonialist states think about the existence of civilians, nobody asked, and neither should you.
When terrorist infrastructure is homes, roads, utilities, and hospitals where attacking kills thousands of children and innocent civilians, then yes. That is the exact definition of indiscriminate: it kills everyone without consideration.
Well, I mean, to be fair, Hamas frequently does actually use hospitals and refugee camps as human shields. It doesn’t make blowing up thousands of innocent people okay, but don’t act like Israel is blowing up camps for no reason. They’re doing it because Hamas are cowardly pieces of shit who hide behind children and sick people. Everyone is horrible in this except the innocent people dying in the crossfire.
The U.S. has a talking zombie for a leader. Victims of injustice have long memories, and so do their families. The world is not on the side of Israel. The Holocaust trump card that diverts any criticism of Israel’s behavior as anti-Semitism is expired, null, and void. They are backed by the U.S. unequivocally, to commit genocide rather than push for ceasefire and dialogue. The U.S. president, a talking zombie, has made his country less safe.
You admit then that the disproportionate retaliation is motivated by vengeance. Ten times the body count, ten times the misery. I don’t condone either side’s actions.
It’s textbook genocide. They’ve seen they can get away with anything under the guise of war, so why not just solve all their issues and make sure no one’s alive to return to their homes?
The origin of that (specifically “Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out”) is way older than that, back all the way to the 13th century and the Cruzades.
I vaguelly remembered it being from a source older than that so I went and looked it up.
I admit, I’ve been skeptical of this for a while because I couldn’t think of a reason why they’d want to do this.
And I realized today. There doesn’t have to be some grand reason. Killing them all ensures Hamas is killed too. They’ll destroy Palestine because it’s easier and safer for them to indiscriminately bomb the place. That’s reason enough. :/
There’s no guise. This is the way war has been prosecuted for millennia. The Geneva Convention, UNHRC, etc. are blips. War is genocide and always has been. Only in the late modern to post-modern era has war been something other than the complete annihilation of your enemies and their culture, including all the infanticide and rape that implies. If you’re, for instance, the US prosecuting a war for nebulous geopolitical reasons, then you can slap up a veneer of rules and conduct. If it’s a war of territorial expansion, on the other hand, you’d better be prepared to do what it takes to stamp out any trace of the people who originally lived there, or at least leave those who remain so broken and disempowered that they’ll never pose a threat.
Expect more like Ukraine & Palestine as the US’s grip on hegemony slips, and as we continue to slowly forget the lessons of the World Wars.
Not quite true. While there were many wars of cultural genocide, (culture is a great control tool), wars of physical genocide were largely reserved for religious wars and punishment wars. Not gonna pay that tithe or surrender the second you see us? Congratulations, you’re an example. Espouse a different religious truth? You’re a threat that must be made an example.
For the most part they understood the value of human capital and didn’t want to destroy it if they didn’t have to.
I think Ukraine has reestablished American hegemony. It’s showcased how powerful it is to have American support, and galvanized NATO once more.
I honestly don’t think you can tie Palestine into this. This conflict has never been indicative of any global influence. This is where global influence does nothing in the face of intense hatred.
This is not true. There are hundreds of cultures around today who were conquered and just left to live until their conquerors eventually moved out. The Jews themselves have literally been conquered a dozen times.
I have one of Mahmoud Darwish’s books right here, goes into pretty significant detail about Israel’s attempts to stamp out Palestinian culture in the earliest years:
Zionist? Closest I’ve come to being Jewish was a girl friend I had in high school. Been to Israel on business, but been a lot of places. What’s your problem?
Me? Jewish? Nooooooo, hAhA. I learned my horrible lack of ethics from business. Nothing to see here. Just a businessman and his random hobby of disseminating state propaganda.
Edit: Sorry, my mistake ^Apparently going around justifying civilian deaths is just how this business man gets his dick wet for the lulz. Everyday I find a new thing that's more disgusting than I thought possible.
Zionism isn’t being Jewish, it’s being pro-Israel and its intentions of establishing a unified control of the area. Joe Biden and Donald Trump are Zionists, neither are Jewish in faith or ethnicity. Bernie Sanders is Jewish, but against Israel’s expansion of the borders and acts it does.
It’s like how you can be against Israel and not be Antisemetic, or be Antisemetic and be pro-Israel for reasons from “I want them exported to there” to “They will allow the Kingdom of God to come to Earth”.
I am against Israel’s apartheid state, and I am against it’s ethnic cleaning of the area. Just as I am for any nation who aims to do that, like Turkey and Russia. But I don’t explicitly hate Turkish or Russian or Israeli citizens blindly because their government that they don’t have direct control over does horrible acts.
Actually Zionism originated in the early 1900’s and had to do with establishing a homeland for Jewish people.
I dislike Israel’s heavy handed approach, but I understand it. I dislike Bibi, because he never really stopped being a New Jersey bar bouncer (yeah he was, look it up). I also understood exactly the outcome of the Hamas attacks, and can understand the resulting war. I can also understand that civilians will be killed in this war as long as they are around Hamas.
How are they supposed to not be around Hamas? They aren’t allowed to leave Gaza (whether it’s the IDF or Hamas preventing their departure doesn’t matter that much here). Even if they were allowed to leave Gaza, what money would they use to do it? Where would they go? How will they rebuild their lives away from the family and social network that they already have established with limited mobility, immigration options, or money?
The Israeli government could fix the problem by putting an end to the settler attacks in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza in pursuit of a true two-state solution. The easiest way to isolate Hamas would be to fully and properly recognize and protect the rights of Palestinian civilians in a way that would offer them a better life away from Hamas influence. All they’re doing right now is a massive recruiting campaign for Hamas.
Even if they were allowed to leave Gaza, what money would they use to do it? Where would they go? How will they rebuild their lives away from the family and social network that they already have established with limited mobility, immigration options, or money?
Maybe using international aid that isn’t being stolen by Hamas and used to make rockets.
Good, in the sense that I’m happy it came to this? Of course not. But there’s a reason this is legal: the alternative is a scenario where those countries that do respect the laws of war are simply unable to fight against any enemy willing to use human shields.
Yet here we are with everyone calling it a war crime, then when they are shown it’s in fact not, they just plug their ears and go on with their narrative.
narratives dont work when you’re exposed to factual information - but if you willingly disbelieve and remain intentionally ignorant then all the factual information in the world wont change your belief. aka this thread and others like it for the last few weeks.
narratives dont work when you’re exposed to factual information - but if you willingly disbelieve and remain intentionally ignorant then all the factual information in the world wont change your belief.
Agreed, the amount of people throwing words around like “genocide” and “carpet bombing” have long detached from reality.
And nothing’s ever going to change if we don’t do anything.
So think about the question; “well what can I do?”
We can’t do shit because we are owned and overpowered by nation-gangs. We are helpless, because the most conniving people at the perfect time in the past made it that way.
We might be helpless to stop it this second, but there are actions we can take to slow the support for this down and stop it in the future hopefully. Even little things can help, we are owned and overpowered by nation-gangs but they are always outnumbered by their pawns.
Add comment