ovid,
@ovid@fosstodon.org avatar

Since I've been using heavily the past week or so, I thought it was time to write up my experience. You might find it surprising.

https://ovid.github.io/articles/using-github-copilot-with-vim.html

sjn,
@sjn@chaos.social avatar

@ovid Have you tried it with yet?

ovid,
@ovid@fosstodon.org avatar

@sjn Nope. Focusing almost exclusively on client work right now. My spare time is mostly for my family.

randomgeek,

@ovid @sjn Not great with Raku. The autocomplete was silent and the suggestions functionality in VS Code gave me Python code.

Not just that, the Python code was barely acceptable, using idioms more appropriate to the 2.x era.

I'll try again later, but for now Copilot's path of least resistance is porting code from one popular language to another popular language.

sjn,
@sjn@chaos.social avatar

@randomgeek @ovid Maybe it's worth playing around a little with as an alternative to ?

https://github.com/fauxpilot/fauxpilot

randomgeek,

@sjn @ovid bookmarked from an earlier suggestion by Ovid!

My plan is to putter with it a little later today.

randomgeek,

@sjn @ovid I might turn my experiences into a blog post later, but quick capture of my initial impressions poking at Copilot in this thread:

https://hackers.town/@randomgeek/110427334545613573

I just need to get over my depressed initial thought that it encourages mediocre code in mediocre languages and I'll continue experimenting.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@randomgeek @sjn @ovid Why would you expect anything more from a copy machine?

randomgeek,

@mjgardner @sjn @ovid In fairness, it's more of an autocomplete than a copy machine.

Of course, we all know how ducking fantastic autocomplete has been.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@randomgeek @sjn @ovid Autocomplete is just generation loss with some hash tables as guardrails. They’re both Markov processes. Therefore, LLM == copy machine.

randomgeek,

@mjgardner you may want to take your photocopier into the shop. It's not supposed to hallucinate.

(I know you're going with extrapolated functionality and I'm being painfully literal but my brain's stuck there and I found it amusing)

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@randomgeek I’m amused your brain is stuck on “” developer metaphors like “hallucinate” for non-brains

randomgeek,

@mjgardner I tend to adopt domain jargon pretty quick. Related to neurodivergent masking. I got used to terms having different effective definitions based on context.

Part of why I adored right away.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@randomgeek I think the difference is that Larry Wall knew a thing or two about human language when he incorporated context into , whereas I don’t believe “” researchers using the term “hallucination” are very familiar with human psychology. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination_(artificial_intelligence)#Opposition_to_terminology#Opposition_to_terminology)

ology,
@ology@fosstodon.org avatar
barubary,

@randomgeek @mjgardner I remember an issue like that where a range of scanners would replace digits by other digits in scanned documents and blueprints. It was a few years back. Might've been compression related.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@barubary @randomgeek Yep. See https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/6/4594482/xerox-copiers-randomly-replacing-numbers-in-documents

Full account of copiers mangling numbers here: https://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013/0802_xerox-workcentres_are_switching_written_numbers_when_scanning

They used the image format’s lossy “pattern matching & substitution” method that substitutes previously-encoded characters if they look enough like the one currently being encoded.

This is a great analogy to how -based “” works.

mjgardner, (edited )
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@barubary @randomgeek We demand accurate output from every other form of software.

But some people are giving a free pass to “ like because they’re attracted to the metaphors used by backers like and that confuse computer malfunction with human behavior.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@randomgeek @sjn @ovid’s blog mentioned this, but I guess you’re also OK with furthering ’s and violations? https://GitHubCopilotLitigation.com

(So cool that provides significant contributors like Curtis free reign to violate their colleagues’ wishes.)

dangero,

@mjgardner @randomgeek @sjn @ovid What is this sym­bol that keeps pop­ping up be­tween e­very syl­la­ble on the web­site? As a screen reader user, it makes it difficult to read the page.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@dangero I hope I made this message readable for you.

I think you’re referring to “soft hyphens” which can be inserted into HTML as ­

(That’s ampersand, shy, semicolon.)

They are supposed to indicate a potential place to insert a hyphen when breaking a long word from one line of text to the next.

They’re not intended to be pronounced or even create a pause.

I’m sighted, but I tried enabling VoiceOver on my iPhone to read the page. It ignored the soft hyphens. What do you use?

dangero,

@mjgardner I’m using NVDA on Windows. I just added a speech dictionary entry to ignore the soft hyphen. If you want to know how it sounded for me, try to type some text, but sep ar ate each sy li ble with a space like I just did, then use Voice Over to read it back.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@dangero Ugh, that’s terrible.

It looks like the problem was reported to NVDA back in 2019: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9343

It was then re-reported in 2022 but remains an open issue: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13668

dangero,

@mjgardner Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's rather annoying for those who simply wish to read a website with those characters and not write one IMO.

mjgardner,
@mjgardner@social.sdf.org avatar

@dangero I understand that it’s maddening.

Unfortunately, there are many actors here: site authors, web publishing software , developers, developers, and tying it all together @wai and the standards they publish and support.

Mostly everyone keeps up with standards now, but sadly you’ve run into a long-standing gap with and soft hyphen entities.

Maybe add your thoughts at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13668 ?

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