#CrossBorderRail Autumn 2023 Train 112
TGV 8530
07:12 Hendaye - Paris Montparnasse 11:54
SNCF Voyageurs
Distance: 770km
Average speed: 164km/h
Train type: TGV Oceane double deck TGV, 8 carriages
⚡️
🚲: ⛔️
🦽: ✅ (lift on board)
🛜: ⛔️ (supposed to be but it doesn’t work)
🍽️: ✅
🧳: 🙂 (better than older double deck TGVs - space under seats)
🧽: 😡 (filthy outside)
Here’s the Euskotren crossing the bridge to France at 06:50 this morning. A cross border service every 30 mins, all day. And it’s used - this morning mostly for people going home to France after a night out in Spain!
@irina there were no police at the station on that line this morning (I went by bike, but passed the entrance to the station to check). Which makes the absurdity with the pedestrian bridge all the more bizarre.
Although - thankfully! - there was no border control there this morning, and indeed no French to be seen. In Irún last night there were lots of police - although given how many police Spain seems to have everywhere in general I’m not sure this was necessarily abnormal.
You cannot control everything at every internal Schengen border. Border crossings are too numerous, police resources too thin
All a state can do (and obviously shouldn’t as it’s stupid) is do controls to show sonething is being done, or control buses and trains to pick up some clueless poor people
@jon In my experience they do racial profiling. When travelling north, Austrians and Germans wouldn't even look at my passport (Danes do), but they scrutinise the documents of people with darker skin tones.
A very entitled lady who already tried pulling down the blind without even asking me and gave me a stare when I declined, now has the wrong ticket - she has Sparpreis on the wrong train
She’s now being forced to buy a very expensive new ticket 😂
Also the train manager - who’s polite but firm - told the passenger “if you’d found a staff member and explained this before being controlled we might have found another solution”
Important point here: if there’s some confusion with a ticket, seek out the train manager. Then you’ll likely be ok!
Now they’re telling passengers to Saarbrücken to change in Strasbourg - and take a TER to Sarreguemines and there the tram to Saarbrücken and buy a separate ticket for the tramway and then get it reimbursed. That’s NOT a handy solution!
Oh and the wait in Strasbourg for the TER is more than an hour…
@jon I never end up doing the reimbursement because the cognitive load is too much. They always need too many things, whatever I did is incorrect and needs to be resubmitted, etc.
@Peternimmo@jon Lack of staff at the signal box at Ludwigshafen Hbf due to illness, and there is not really a shorter/faster way around Ludwigshafen than the detour via Strasbourg.
@jon@Peternimmo The train manager simply gives the reason given in the RIS, which is not entered correctly by the Verkehrsleitung. Unfortunately, there are often reasons in the system that do not correspond to what actually happened.
@jon
But the plans [for the route changes] on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said [Jon] “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.
And my all the borders map has now been updated too
Pink - main #CrossBorderRail project 2022 (74)
Lighter pink - follow up projects in 2022 and 2023 (119)
Orange - visited prior to #CrossBorderRail (34)
Grey - not yet been (254)
But I am missing only 42 #CrossBorderRail lines with passenger services, and just 31 of those are at internal borders of the EU, Norway, Switzerland and Vatican (the scope of the projects so far)
And in just under 18 months I have been to 1️⃣9️⃣3️⃣ rail borders - that's not bad I think 🙂
#CrossBorderRail Autumn 2023 Train 113
ICE 9553
13:09 Paris Est - Mannheim Hbf 16:17
DB Fernverkehr
Distance: 509km
Average speed: 162km/h
Train type: ICE 407, 8 carriages
⚡️
🚲: ⛔️
🦽: ✅ (lift on platform)
🛜: ✅
🍽️: ✅ (limited offer today, but there was still something)
🧳: 🤔 (not many racks for larger luggage - other ICEs better)
🧽: 🙂
#CrossBorderRail Autumn 2023 Train 114
ICE 70
17:16 Mannheim Hbf - Berlin Südkreuz 22:24
DB Fernverkehr
Distance: 620km
Average speed: 121km/h
Train type: ICE4 12 carriage version
⚡️
🚲: ✅
🦽: ✅ (lift on board is broken, but I assume lifts on platforms still work?)
🛜: ⛔️ (installed, but it’s broken)
🍽️: ✅
🧳: 🙂 (ICE4, so very good)
🧽: 🙂
@nehalem501 I’m aware I’m often missing accents in toots I write. Often the reports I use for analysis and timetables (like DB Reiseauskunft) are missing them too. I’ll correct when I can, but some slip through - sorry.
@jon add Dolni Žleb 🇨🇿- schöna🇩🇪 and Sebnitz 🇩🇪 - Dolní Poustevna 🇨🇿 to the ticketing. Impossible to buy online and no one knows which is the border station. All other CZ border stops have 49 euro ticket valid.
And there's a regular train running (U28)
@kupfers@jon any ticket is easy to buy on the train.
What @jon (very likely) refers is the possibility to buy online or in advance.
For example if you pick the Labe (Prague-Decin), you won't have time to buy the ticket in Děčín in the counter. So.... It's kinda a free trip. Well... Let's call Dolní Žleb and Poustevna as border stations (DB/VVO/D-Ticket valid) and that's it. Like any other border station. No need to complicate simple things
@kupfers@sergiowct I just want to avoid those cross-border “how the hell does this work?” moments for passengers. Sure, we three can work it out - because we do this stuff regularly. But if you don’t it’s off putting.
@jon@sergiowct Yes I know. And we are primed to frantically search how to buy it online because all train companies push us to buy online. I just wish that you could buy standard price tickets on board everywhere. That should be the default if you don’t know how to figure it out in advance. I rather close all but the major Reisezentren and do away with all ticket machines. That must bring huge savings. And more, helpful staff on trains would be appreciated by everyone.
@jon@kupfers so so. Their ticketing system is like Ryanair. Miss that train number on the ticket and you'll have to revalidate with a fee (IC and AP, don't know for others).
So, no, Portugal is not that good, very inflexible, even for regionals.
Did you know that there's different tariff even for R and RE (IR), same rolling stock, different prices.
@jon@kupfers well.. forgot to mention that revalidation is only at the ticket counter.
Onboard don't know if they make you buy another full ticket.
But yeah, ticketing in Portugal is only good if it goes according to plan.
Ligações garantidas em condições normais de circulação
(Guaranteed connections only in normal working conditions)
@jon@sergiowct Same with Scottland where I thought about it all for real. They don’t have any ticket machines at smaller stations, just a sign up that you should buy from the conductor (like what @moritzkraehe suggests). Also takes so much stress from you if you have a tight connection and/or don’t know how the machine or ticket system works.
@sergiowct@kupfers@jon As much as I'm personally annoyed by U28 and want cross-border rail travel to be easier, I really don't get this obsession with wanting to buy a ticket for a 30 minute regional rail journey that can never sell out in advance. What's wrong with buying a ticket on board the train? It's not even an issue with a quick change in Děčín, just buy the ticket from the conductor on the Rychlík. ČD conductors can sell nearly anything. I genuinely once bought a bus ticket from Teplice to Cínovec/Zinnwald from the conductor on a ČD Nostalgie vintage special.
@moritzkraehe@sergiowct@kupfers You know that. The rest of us in this chat know that. But please put yourself in the shoes of someone who does not know that! ALL tickets ought to be bookable online, at machines, at ticket offices if they exist and if not from train crew. No exceptions.
@jon@sergiowct@kupfers True, but until we get there, I'd already be pretty happy if DB could simply manage to put a "Tickets sold on board" notice into the journey planner.
@jon@moritzkraehe@kupfers for example Břeclav and Hohenau are great good examples! You can use the ČD/IDMK regions till Hohenau 🇦🇹 and VOR till Břeclav 🇨🇿. So, don't understand why there's no uniformization of border stations.
Sadly not all stations are like Železná Ruda Alžbětin/ Bayerische Eisenstadt which shame the same building and platforms (kind of)
@jon and now for the WTF of the moment. ČD doesn't sell online for Bad Schandau - Děčín (if not EC) and DB sells for 49 euro.
Seriously?
So... Just buy till Dolní Žleb on ČD and VVO/DB/D-Ticket in DE.
That's it. Fix it, right @jon ?
@jon Not the first time I've heard the "We can't have functional walking and cycling infrastructure because the police might have to exert some effort occasionally" gambit.
@jon 59 minute change in Mannheim 🤔 Does it mean the previous Berlin-bound train left 1 minute before the train from Paris arrived (assuming there's some Takt)?
In light of the announced Paris-Berlin direct train, I find it important to know. If the connections are not efficient today, politicians can of course boast about launching a direct service that cuts 1h, without actually improving timetables which would benefit all the connections.
A regular Strasbourg-Karlsruhe(-Mannheim-Frankfurt) regional/intercity train would be the way to fix that, not waiting for longer services at the state level to incidentally pass by their cities sigh
@gendx Sure. Other than Karlsruhe - where the city administration knows what it's doing as far as I can tell - everyone else is having a battle for symbolic wins, rather than actual solid, substantive change. But superficial media coverage of all this doesn't help either.
@jon Sunday train travel was always bad news. On first Interrail adventure in 1975 - still have the ticket - I wanted to travel from Zürich to Mönchengladbach (MG) According to Thomas Cook Rail Guide it should have gone up the Rhine towards Frankfurt. But because of works on the line it went out of Basel towards Mulhouse and then trundled it's way through Alsace for hours before finally crossing to Germany.
ETA MG ca. 7 pm. Arrived 10 pm.
@hoare_spitall Modern rolling stock is often not approved for multiple countries. The old way - change the locomotive at the border - is generally not done any more.
@jon My experience these days with rail lines is very limited, but what I hear from the Swiss in-laws SBB seems to offer very good national services.
We (Mosel Valley) have a good cross border link, Lux - Düsseldorf, but only once a day in each direction. There's been talk for years about more frequency, but no sign so far.
But the region around Lux is well served for 'Pendlerverkehr', as there are 70K travel in & out on workdays from D, B, and F, a good proportion by train.
@hoare_spitall Not sure. The roads are still clogged. It's not free for those crossing the border each day, and that's what causes the congestion... So I am far from sure this experiment works.
I actually saw that for some other connection that likely involved your train. But not on your train. Strange. And they didn't say that Saarbrücken would not be a stop, but only excluded Kaiserslauten, but added Karlsruhe. How to get from Saarbrücken to Karlsruhe without going through Kaiserslautern was already a mystery...
@jon The 407 still has an old FIS witch, which is not very flexible if the route changes. Newer ICE get their information from the RIS (like DB Navigator etc) via the internet and can display such situations much more clearly.
A redesign of the 407 is planned for next year, I think they will also update the FIS.
@yacc143 I know both those rail borders all too well. And they’re both crap for regional services, ticketing, service levels, diesel trains on electrified lines. Only long distance services work half well at either.
@Michael Ah. So this wasn’t even half planned. I’d wondered why I’d not noticed it. It might be to my advantage if I can pick up a ICE to Berlin in Karlsruhe instead.
I can only find something about construction works during weekdays and between something like 9 and 12.
But newspaper articles about the lack of signallers (in German):
@Michael@jon DB Regio has a message about it on bahn.de but Fernverkehr seems to think they get their trains through – the evening trains are still pretending to go via Saarbrücken.
I travelled yesterday morning Paris Est – Mannheim. Should go via Saarbrücken, but was also deviated via Strasbourg/Karlsruhe. Given reason: sick signaler for the track Saarbrücken –Kaiserslautern. No long distance trains, only regional trains for Saarbrücken & Kaiserslautern.
There were such plans when RER E opened in 1999: overpass that would have become underpass from Rue d'Alsace and ended up in the concourse of Magenta station.
The problem is that platforms in Paris-Est become very narrow when nearing the station throat. So, not so much room left to add pillars.
Extending the underpass would be easier and build on something that exists and is sadly underused.
@jon the only intra-Schengen control i've had in recent years was Austria > Germany.
45 min stop in Freilassing for my Nightjet… and the border Polizei didn't even visit my compartment
Back in 2008 I got stopped by Zoll on the Autobahn a bit north of Passau in the direction of Regensburg while I was moving back from Wien to Paris. They were extra polite, but it still was a quite weird experience.
@jon on the trip towards Vienna my Nightjet was NOT stopped at the FR>DE border though. Looks like it's exactly what you said — show off at some sensitive borders.
Reasons brought forward over the years basically boil down to the antiquated infra: the Midi-inherited DC system needs to be scrapped (esp the "ogive" catenary masts which span both tracks) which complicates works.
Also, the north end near Bordeaux has a fair amount of traffic with plans for more (through service Arcachon-Libourne). Tough to speed trains up on this section.
Faster Regional services on Bordeaux- Dax used to run with Z21500s (specified to 200 km/h...)
Nouvelle-Aquitaine got rid of those sadly, but 200 km/h Omneo Premium could make it.
TGV traffic is unlikely to exceed 2 tph (3 maybe) on Bordeaux - Dax so long as Basque Y does not open (at best) / Basque Y + HSL Vitoria - Burgos (at worst)
@jon When I have crossed the border to get to Hendaye, there was police - but they did nothing. Maybe there is a sort of flexible border control regime in operation?
@jon Last time I was there, there were some policemen at the Hendaye Euskotren station, but checking nobody. They even didn't care that I was jumping the exit ticket gates.
I remember people posting pictures of a fenced off beach on the Romanian/Bulgarian border and imagining how nice it will be when both are in Schengen... It's dispiriting to see the same thing at a Schengen border.
@DiegoBeghin Denmark is more transparently nasty. France (esp Macron) claims to be the great European and on the ground France controls lots of borders.
@jon for me, it barely works when I can even connect to it… that said, it looks like issues might be line-specific… couldn’t get it to work on Quimper - Paris but worked adequately but certainly not great on Paris - Grenoble on Friday. Admittedly, it was working fine on Paris - Quimper last Sunday, though only for internal services. It’s hard to consider it a reliable service, though, as in my limited experience, it’s as likely to work slowly as not at all…
@jon I guess my point is that if a service is advertised, it should work reasonably well more often than not… I don’t think it’s quite there for wifi aboard TGVs.
@jon
That's an experience we cannot duplicate in Japan, which borders on no other countries --although there is talk about constructing a train tunnel under the sea between Japan and the Korean Peninsula. (Not likely, since the two countries cannot even agree on the name of the sea.)
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