@BlackAzizAnansi Seeing identity-focused instances (art, lgbt, etc) might help - it does for me at least. So perhaps easy tools for creating and administering new instances?
@BlackAzizAnansi more emphasis on smaller, community led and moderated instances. I.e., actual communities.
I think the bigger instances are too faceless, and don't offer anything particularly attractive to differentiate themselves from just any other minor social media service.
A better onboarding process that doesn't just end up shuffling people to one the big ones but helps people identify where they might actually find community.
@Kyleric@BlackAzizAnansi well, obviously I'm not #JohnMastodon, but I'm working pretty hard to provide some of that on my instance. And I think there's value in spitballing about what would help make that more of a default for folks.
I could imagine smaller community focused instances even forming a pact and creating a better onboarding process with that in mind. It's certainly not something I have capacity for.
@thekitmalone@BlackAzizAnansi Sorry if I came across as shitty, I didn’t mean it that way. I agree with you that smaller instances seem to be better.
As far as better onboarding, that would have to be implemented by the app you are using to access Mastodon, at least for mobile, right? And then we have to figure out a way to tell people which app to use for onboarding before they get here?
“that would have to be implemented by the app you are using”
Yes, there is a lot of truth to that. I respect the work that @spreadmastodon is doing and is actually an abstracted, app-agnostic onboarding workflow.
However, I not hot about the current strategy for suggesting servers. Much like Kit, I recommend an emphasis on geographic or interest-specific instances as a better tactic.
@brian@Kyleric@thekitmalone@BlackAzizAnansi@spreadmastodon I get the part about how being presented with a directory of servers can be overwhelming, especially at a time when you have the least information about what the difference is. But I too wonder about how to suggest servers which isn't just a small list. Maybe by IP address? Or by some kind of affiliate link which reflects how you heard about it? Or onboarding onto a temporary server (maybe even readonly) which lets you look around and choose a real server a bit later?
@brian@Kyleric@BlackAzizAnansi@spreadmastodon I could see something along the lines of joinmastodon.org as well, only run specifically by a coalition of instances with a focus on diversity.
The true goal of onboarding should be to match people up with a home community (+ thus suitable moderation policies) based on however they primarily identify:
@BlackAzizAnansi I think villainizing tone policing as a community would help. It's a problem everywhere I go, but it's the worst feature of ppl here. It's especially odd because this platform, more than any other, gives people the power to just block topics they don't want to see. So, why do they insist everyone self-censor? I don't know.
@marcobie@BlackAzizAnansi This reminds me of during college orientation. We were sharing what felt different so far on campus from our lives before. Every white person in the group going "oh its so diverse here, its really crazy" and then to me, who grew up in the city "There's a lot of fuckin' white people here."
All about perspective I guess.
@BlackAzizAnansi Any group you want to be here, it's gotta be useful and/or entertaining for them, and not actively hostile. We've got a lot of work to do on all fronts.
@BlackAzizAnansi Case study / anecdata time. My fiancée is Black. I talk about this place incessantly and send her toots while she sends me Insta & YouTube videos all day long. She wasn't even a twitter person but finally broke down after hearing me obsess about it and is curious. Here's where that's at. She is queer and sufficiently nerdy that I think we can cover her for entertainment. Function-wise she'd like to connect with other librarians of color, & I'm not sure how well she'll do.
@BlackAzizAnansi That leaves us with the "do no harm" bit which is hardest for me. I do not want to expose her to more racial trauma and micro aggression bullshit than she already gets. She's tough and I will watch her mentions and defend her to the hilt, but that part still makes me super ambivalent.
@misc@BlackAzizAnansi She’s honestly better off not joining. My experience on mastodon has been traumatising. I’ve been harassed by admins and mods. I’ve been told what I can and cannot talk about. It’s been made very clear to me that WHITE sensibilities are the ONLY sensibilities that matter here. Big instances silence folks like me (they literally “limit” snd “mute” us!). Ethnic and religious minorities are bullied from the top down.
@christineluc That's also my impression of the last 6+ years -- at least of the entrentched power structure.
@BlackAzizAnansi One possible approach is to have a region of the fediverse that starts with the subset of instances and people who want to prioritize equity and justice as well as diversity. Otherwise I can't see how to overcome the entrenched whiteness (etc) -- it gets harder and harder to change systems as they grow.
@christineluc yeah really! And white people telling people of color to CW their posts about racism, and casual racism in comments, and the list goes on.
Are the reply guys on that instance or elsewhere? If they're elsewhere, then hachyderm could be a good instance to be part of the "subset" I talked about. But if the hachyderm community is filled with guys like that, then it's big enough that'll be hard to turn around without a major effort (and willingness to lose people)
@CatHat As would I. On Facebook I helped support a POC-led group of admins who decided to transform a "white liberal" group to an actively anti-racist group, starting with more active moderation and threads focusing on racial justice education. At least 10% of the people in the group left. And you know what? That was a good thing!
@jdp23@christineluc@BlackAzizAnansi
The white people wanting content warnings for description of racism especially can go
i can understand that some POC would want to content warning racism for the benefit of other people who suffer it. White people need to see it
@jdp23@CatHat@christineluc@BlackAzizAnansi I don’t CW my posts on islamophobia. I got kicked off the main NZ instance because of it. The white, non-Muslim mod just couldn’t handle it. Made him feel uncomfortable.
@inaya@jdp23@christineluc@BlackAzizAnansi no reason to CW stuff just because it makes other people uncomfy. CW is for the benefit of preventing harm. Preventing education would be harmful.
Im not pretending that it doesn't make me uncomfortable to read such things. It's supposed to. People shouldn't be comfortable with bigotry. I want learn how to stop being part of the problem.
Very sorry to hear that, @inaya. As @erincandescent says, "There's a distinction between safety and comfort; and I feel like some of the moderation here conflates them." -- her post is about defederation but it applies to moderation in generall. https://queer.af/@erincandescent/110327062141439400
@jens Yes that policing is common on many instances -- @mekkaokereke calls it "Homeowner's association racisim" (aka HOA racism), I've also heard the term "hall monitors".
Margaret KIBI's "Fringe Masstodev: the Beginnings" talks about how just a couple of weeks after CWs were introduced in January 2017. white users "started taking it to the mentions of people of colour whenever the subject of race came up."
It’s weird, I was reading one of your post in the thread as your response came in.
Plus I was already thinking about the times I’ve felt that CW was overused. Like, for posting a normal selfie.
Since moving servers is somewhat easy I think a good approach is being on a server with admins or community that has your back. That would probably not be 1000+ user instance.
@christineluc@jdp23@mekkaokereke@BlackAzizAnansi@jens@creatrixtiara@CatHat demographics also play an important role in it. If the server is run by mostly white, Northern Europeans of a slightly Christian persuasion (be they practicing or not), you will find that minorities are NOT safe. Not ethnic or religious ones (non-Christian) anyways.
I have guessed that too. I had an idea that my server should be a safe space, but I canned that idea quickly when I realised the knowledge required. But I am learning. Bit by bit.
The word "normal" is a loaded one.
So is the concept of "have your back"
I moved from a small server to a much larger one because i wanted to avoid personality based drama.
Im used to a world in which my existence is offensive to people who are backed by authorities.
Selfies with eye contact are a good example of why this is all so tricky: they're triggering for many people, who (not unreasonably) want a way to view their timelines by not being triggered. But demands to CW selfies can easily wind up having racialized aspects -- or be used to shut down trans people, for whom posting a selfie can be very important self-affirmation. It really is tricky!
A complicating factor here is that there haven't been any real improvements to CW functionality since they were first introduced. Thinking more about the social aspects of how CWs get used in practice could lead to a better solution. So this goes back to @BlackAzizAnansi's original question: what's the plan to make progress here?
Right now, there isn't one.
Hopefully, the reaction to Meta will highlight the need to change that
One possible solution is one that Mastodon people have been resistant to for years, but that some Black Fediverse people, and the BlueSky people, and I 🙋🏿♂️ think make sense:
A combination of Quote posts, and composable moderation providers.
Consider eye contact selfies. Some users don't want to see them. Other users don't want to CW all their selfies. These images need to be [labeled] so that they can be [filtered].
There's an inherent value judgement on asking someone to label their own posts for your benefit. The vocabulary "content warning" is also unnecessarily pejorative, when what's being asked for is a content filter.
@mekkaokereke@jdp23@BlackAzizAnansi@CatHat@jens@inaya@christineluc@creatrixtiara I think the ability to tag your posts in multiple ways that arent as noisy as hashtags, and maybe don't default to hidden (like CWs should) would be really useful. Folks could tag their photos with multiple tags and folks that want that content entirely hidden, or hidden by default, would have a better experience.
@mekkaokereke For the record, I also think this makes sense! I'm not particularly convinced by the way Bluesky's approaching it but at least they're thinking about it. And it's a great point that the perjorative overtones of "content warning" shapes how we think about it.
Yeah, what people often mean by content warnings, is "label this content, so that people can make individualized decisions to avoid content with that label."
It would be great if as a mastodon user, I could subscribe to a moderation provider. One such moderation provider might label posts that contain eye contact selfies.
It would also be great if I could add a label to something that I boost or quote post.
@creatrixtiara@jens@CatHat@mekkaokereke@BlackAzizAnansi@jdp23@christineluc I’m neurodivergent (Tourette’s and OCD). For me, a CW in itself can be triggering. My heart rate increases when I see that something is hidden behind a CW. I get worried, knowing they’re overused, and wonder if it’s something that should really be hidden.
I. Click. On. CWs. Every. Damn. Time. Because. I. Hate. Things. Being. Hidden.
Great point. There's a lot more innovation happening in variants than their is in mainline Mastodon. @supakaity also has an interesting proposal -- very much in keeping with the fedierse's focus on consent -- related to searchability, interactivity, and quotability. [Tne formatting's better if you look at directly on blahaj.zone]. https://blahaj.zone/notes/9ev0kge0aj
Maybe we could use AI to gauge a post as it’s made? And if the language is construed as incendiary or offensive the poster could get a warning on how others might interpret the post and suggestions on other wordings that would be more constructive to the exchange.
And thanks @cautionwip for the great input, I very much agree! CWs as they are toay aren't a good solution and maybe aren't even on the right pat to a solution. And, software needs to be flexible enough that people can use it in the way that works best for them, not just in the way that the developers think is best. Also agreed on picking battles, there are only so many hours in the day and only so many spoons.
@jdp23@jens@jo@CatHat@inaya@creatrixtiara Thanks, it’s not an easy thing to weigh in on when you’re not actually a dev/coder, so really I appreciate the positive feedback. :)
@jdp23 Thanks for the linkage to that post. That’s a terrific list of people/accounts and I’m glad to see it’s a loving document, as it were. Bookmarked for regular check-ins on that thread. 👍
@cautionwip glad it's useful! I haven't updated it for a while, but sometime over the summer I'm probably going to shift that account to another instance and when I do I'll take another pass at it.
It was not really connected to the CW discussion but rather the “why are people choosing to be assholes”-question that came up as a side note. Sorry for derailing.
@jens None necessary, but thank you. I hope I didn’t come across as dismissive of the idea, because I really do think it could be a useful tool in many ways.
Oh, not at all. I’ve been on the Fediverse since last fall, so I’m basically a veteran now. Been through all kinds of drama. No, this type of feature should be added to Big Social Media as mandatory. Twitter, local FB groups, Reddit etc.
But I’ll guess incendiary comments is what keeps the public engaged. And keeping the public engaged is what makes the cash roll in. So I’m not holding my breath.
Here, with the current structure it might not be feasible.
I don’t think I’ve ever used cursing in a comment. Mainly because it’s an immediate reaction to curse and, as we talked about, we can reflect before posting. But also because there’s usually a limited amount of characters and it’s more effective getting your point across without it. Twitters way seems like the American way. Hurt whoever you want, just don’t curse - Country of double standards.
@CatHat@jens@jdp23 I have Tourette’s. Holding back the curse words actually causes me to feel stress. It’s hard to explain. I don’t curse AT people (not to their faces!), but I DO use a LOT of swear words in my normal speech. Twitter doesn’t care about the content. It’s only certain words that trigger their algorithm.
Would you handle that on social media by typing all the curse words as you’re making your comment and then delete or edit it?
Or would it be more like excluding the curse words from typing but exclaiming them with your voice while typing?
I mean, it’s still asynchronous so…
If I’m over-stepping or you don’t feel like it, just don’t answer.
@CatHat@jdp23@jens I am more of myself here sometimes than I am allowed to be in person. I’m also a firm believer that words are just words, and there are no “bad words.” Usage matters a hell of a lot more than the word itself. People can be insulting and demeaning without using a single curse word. And they can be loving and affectionate using a string of curse words.
I curse a lot more in person too. But on the internet I don’t have to swear. I can use my words instead. To me, there are bad words.
I think I’m conservative in that regard. It’s the same when using English words in the Swedish language. There so many terms that people often don’t bother translating them. I think it’s important to use your own language words, if possible. But I don’t police others, maybe just the snarky remark if it’s funny.
I had no idea.
(I knew I was going to learn a lot of new things by engaging in this thread)
But when you say trigger, do you mean it could trigger some kind of episode? Or more trigger, as in “I don’t like it”?
I’m going to listen more about this topic, but right now I’m leaning towards that the home feed is highly customisable, so if you’re triggered by certain selfies, unfollow seem like a good idea.
@jens@jdp23@mekkaokereke@inaya@christineluc@BlackAzizAnansi@creatrixtiara halfway in between?
Eye contact is painful for some people although im not really in that category
I don't like being stared at and instinctively assume it's a dominance or sexual interaction. Usually the first if its eye contact.
@jens Or the software should have an option to have two profile pics (one with one without eye contact) and people can choose which to see. Or there should be an easy way to say "don't show my profile pics". Or I'm sure there are other solutions ...
I’m sorry to hear that. I just read through your last 5 days of posts and couldn’t see anything that I think would need a CW. I did enjoy the rainbow knitting, it looked great!
But it’s also hard when not everyone shares the same words. I’m Swedish and I came across how people piled on an Admin for using the term “globalist”. To me, that is an economic term (free trade without borders) but in US it’s also a whistle for Jews. To me, that is a difficult dimension.
@CatHat It says a lot more about the fediverse. As @damon and others have pointed out, Mastodon has a toxic reputation in many Black communities. I'm sure the same is true in many Muslim communities -- there's plenty of anti-Muslim content floating around. Of course it's not always the case, I've heard good things about absolutelyhar.am, but it's normalized ... and that's bad.
@jdp23@damon@inaya@BlackAzizAnansi@jens@christineluc@creatrixtiara@erincandescent the first time i heard of white people kicking someone black off their server for not CW lived experience was shortly musk setting off a migration. Im not remotely surprised it also happens to other people for making whites Christians uncomfy.
@erincandescent@jdp23@creatrixtiara@christineluc@BlackAzizAnansi@CatHat Just want to point out how very WHITE the thread discussing defederation was. Didn’t see a single ethnic or religious minority weighing in. Had there been, I’m sure the topic of defederation/limiting/muting being weaponised would have been brought up.
@Bigou Yep. Not sure if you saw it farther down in the thread but there are links to a thread where POC described their experiences and an article from 2017 with some great examples, starting at https://indieweb.social/@jdp23/110597554686534314 and in the replies
@BlackAzizAnansi The people using the fediverse (software that supports ActivityPub) seem to be doing reasonably well at supporting a diverse group of white people from the perspective of gender identity and sexuality, marginally okay for differently abled people, not doing especially great insofar as diversity of nationality (except for people from Germany, USA, UK, and Canada), and really failing in terms of BIPOC.
I don’t know about other people, but my plan is:
Follow every black, indigenous, or person of color who I encounter here and boost their posts.
Defer to BIPOC when they tell us what is needed for a diverse community and what we are doing wrong.
Work towards racial diversity in my job, town, and state, and encourage everyone to join us in the fediverse.
Insta-block racists and Nazis.
Only support instances and developers who explicitly work towards more diversity.
I am sure there is more I can do, but that’s my plan so far.
@renwillis@BlackAzizAnansi the fediverse is hostile to POC, especially Black people*. Many have come here and been harassed off. It isn't an awareness problem.
Add comment