Are you a #php developer or a WordPress/Laravel/Symfony/Drupal developer?
Understanding the underlying language will make you more effective and considerably more flexible/employable.
Understanding the language helps you read the framework code and make sense of complex things. It lets you adopt new tech. And it empowers you to switch from one project to another without fear.
I’m happy to say I started with PHP first before I got into Drupal and Symfony. I also worked some years with CodeIgniter 3.x. For sure it helps you can read the core code of a system!
@sarah I agree, although I'm heavily biased. In my ~20 year career as a php dev I never ever worked on code that facilitated any framework. Okay, maybe 2-3 months in wordpress and symfony each. My teams wrote everything by themselves. And that just happend. I guess we could have mitigated a lot of errors by using the structure a framework would have supplied. And job openings nearly always demand experience for one fw or the other. 1/
@sarah But i like to think that this gives me a good understanding for how php works. Maybe write efficient php code, although I would use go for efficiency instead. Sorry.
Okay, writing everything for yourself is a bad habit and should be avoided 😂 2/2
@haroha in 20 years the hardest part of solving problems has never been related to knowing how the framework works. Usually it’s doing something the framework didn’t anticipate.
@sarah Hm, maybe for context: Almost all professional dev work I did was in webshop develpment. Current company has about half a million live products on display. Until a few years ago we did backend automation in php and java. Now go has entered the ecosystem as it was easier for us php devs without java background to get a hold of.
@tappenden it’s unfortunately true. And Laravel-specific companies need to realize that hiring someone with Laravel-only experience actually harms them, because it limits the thought processes their developers are capable of
@tappenden@sarah I definitely wouldn’t say obfuscate, but abstract. Having source-dived the framework several times to understand how it works under the hood, it hides MANY complexities.
If Laravel was designed to be obfuscated, it wouldn’t have so many developers contributing nice things, let alone such a large ecosystem.
With an intermediate level understanding of PHP you can figure it out most of the framework’s components.
@sarah@tappenden Max mentions obfuscation, I’d like to see an example of what he means within Laravel since that’s the topic of discussion. Other examples are welcome too.
If it’s something dangerous in Laravel I’m sure the core team would like to hear about that.
I have my perspectives as a developer and I like to see perspectives of other people, be it as a dev, pen tester, infosec, what have you.
I’m not entirely sure where the “new to the community” remark comes from.
@rvxlab@tappenden the way it goes is simple: we provide a concrete example of a design decision that shouldn’t have been made and is poor programming. You endorse that decision as good for programming, and beat up on “best practices”. We all walk away frustrated.
I’m not new to the community: I’ve had this conversation before. I’m not going to make the same mistake twice.
We should simply “agree to disagree” and not end up screaming at strangers on the internet.
@sarah@tappenden I understand where you’re coming from and please note that my question comes from a place of curiosity. In no way did I intend to come across a way of “my way is the right way” or anything like that. I’m sorry.
I agree on letting this conversation be and go our separate ways. Please have a nice night.
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