esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

I THINK THE MATRIX CHAT PROTOCOL SUCKS

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@esm indeed it does - espechally compared to & !

esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

@kkarhan xmpp has almost no good clients and yet the ux is still better with it compared to element or any other matrix client

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@esm I digress:

There are many good -Clients like (), () and (-)...

And in terms of that require , the only good option I found is , which has excellent for and as well - tho sadly the latter one is written in and not like a static binary...
https://github.com/zulip/zulip-terminal

esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

@kkarhan oh wait, they forked blabber.im? that's what i currently use, gonna try out monocles

i use dino on desktop which is one of the better clients imo but the lack of cross-platform support limits accessibility

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@esm I think works well since it's a.-based client but unlike it includes out of the box.

nicoco,

@kkarhan @esm @gajim is definitely not libpurple-based. It has its own low-level XMPP lib called nbxmpp. If it were libpurple-based it would probably suck much more for :)

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@nicoco @esm @gajim Okay, thx for correcting me...

nicoco,

@kkarhan It's always a pleasure to correct people being wrong on the internet ;-)

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@nicoco I know.

Been there, done that.

And I'd rather admit mistakes, do better and move on.

hexaheximal,
esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

@hexaheximal @kkarhan i already use cinny

hexaheximal,

@esm @kkarhan meanwhile, good lucking finding a good web xmpp client. I tried. didn't go well.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm Why would anyone want that anyway?

There are native #XMPP+#OMEMO client for literally any relevant platform!

hexaheximal,

@kkarhan @esm Most people (including me) prefer using those kinds of things in a web browser.

Also, obvious counter-argument for the any platform thing: chromeos

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm

Any with of all Keys should be considered security-sensitive and thus should not he used as a .

Also supports -Apps and if you don't have administrative privilegues on a machine then consider it insecure and nit trustworthy for yourself as a user!

hexaheximal,

@kkarhan @esm Not all chromeos devices do. (e.g. ones where apps are restricted by management), and there are still other scenarios where a web app is the best/only way to do it.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm Again: If your devices is locked down, it's not yohrs amd thus not secure for private comms - !

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @hexaheximal @esm try telling that to literally any public school ever nowadays

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

Then that's your problem then - not mine.

You could just boot a USB flashdrive and have your own portable at your fingertips...

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @esm @hexaheximal That is quite literally a strawman argument. I never mentioned normal windows laptops, I mentioned chromebooks, which don't work that way. Even if it were a windows laptop though, there are ways that they can prevent people from doing that.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

Again: I consider a Chromebook not a real computer, but a to access Services.

They are literally built this way, marketed this way and subsidized because Google ROIs that with and other crap.

Or do you complain that the doesn't let you run ?

Or that the doesn't provide your with a desktop??

THAT'S the Strawman issue you posted...
https://blob.cat/objects/5dfc1241-de28-4938-b53b-888eb3bf58bd

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@hexaheximal @kkarhan @esm I also forgot about the most obvious thing...

Back in the 90s, Bill Gates infamously decided to kill Netscape. He did it because he knew that web apps would make the operating system irrelevant.

While his solution was wrong, he correctly predicted that web apps were going to take over.

Look at all of the desktop apps which are just Electron wrappers now too. It's very common. (and before you say that electron is bad and discard it, which is likely, https://github.com/nukeop/nuclear/blob/master/docs/electron.md)

> Any with of all Keys should be considered security-sensitive and thus should not he used as a .

This is irrelevant too. Browsers have really good sandboxing nowadays, and on chromium you can even create multiple profiles within the UI. The reality is that, as long as the client-side code can be trusted (reminder that you can self-host element and/or cinny if you don't trust it - I've done that before) as well as the browser itself, it's about the same in terms of security.

You are fighting against reality.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal
You may call me a evangelist but

everytime something that could've been barely Megabytes as an , , or Kilobytes as a tool instead shoves yet another entire half gig copy of the - that is onto the Desktop despite using not even 0,1% of it's featureset

I call this a systemic failure in Software Architecture.

Browsers are the most attacked applications on beyond CMSes and Webservers...

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @esm @hexaheximal if you care that much, write your own native app. Problem solved. The reality is that nobody cares - most important things nowadays are either a web app or a wrapper for a web app.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

Apparently you do care - on grooming your escalating commitment to excuses to not use or even try out something...

But that's your decision.

It's okay to be wrong...

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @esm @hexaheximal I do use XMPP though. I've tried multiple clients even - both native and desktop. Ended up on Dino.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

So the problem is solved then...

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal ...and even if we think local are a legitimate way to handle sensitive comms - they ain't but let's just assume they are for the sake of argument - WHY would you do anything beyond a .desktop file that includes startup parameters for (or even if you're that kind of Cyber-Masochist!) that specify the browser, and the file to load.

Because any good should be reduceable as + + and measured in kB or maybe a few MB.

kkarhan, (edited )
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal Shit like is an abomination and only won because regulators are systematically dysfunctional, corrupt and staffed with , otherwise all the , and among others would've been forcibly disbanded the same way was.

Microsoft feared but nowadays they basically gave up on and OSes since , & make the real profits & margins!

https://blob.cat/objects/29e2ce65-026f-4fb6-aa2a-2de2c1ebe4c5

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal Like & & before them, is working hard to forcibly -ize & -ify (aka. ) their products and subsequently cancel any , / and options until there's only / as a with no control over anything whatsoever...

And OFC that'll be weaponized against anyone and everyone!
https://twitter.com/frank_rieger/status/999319383917957121

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

So yeah, don't trust any where it's trivial to siphon away credentials.

And don't trust any , because they WILL LIE TO YOU just like the of and @protonmail did/still do.

Keep your keys in self-custody and encryption as well as decryption locally or don't even bother at all!

And I'd certainly not do critical comms from an insecure device where I don't have full control!

http://dreadytofatroptsdj6io7l3xptbet6onoyno2yv7jicoxknyazubrad.onion/post/547af5650b3853a3b24e

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @esm @hexaheximal @protonmail

  1. ProtonMail is not a honeypot. No idea where you got that from.
  2. Dead onion link. I actually went out of my way to try it but it lead to nowhere.
  3. I already told you that you can simply self-host Element and Cinny.
  4. Now, consider, what if a native app does something malicious that's not possible in a browser sandbox. ;)
kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @protonmail @esm @hexaheximal

  1. People said the same about ...
    And sadly my gut feeling and the Intel I get is way more reliable than marketing lies.

  2. It's not dead, because I can just open it, even on Mobile.

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @protonmail @esm @hexaheximal the fact that you avoided responding to points 3 and 4 really says a lot.

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @protonmail @esm @hexaheximal

YOU LITERALLY EDITEC THAT POST AFTER I REPLIED TO YOU!

Now fuck off asshole!

https://blob.cat/objects/571db7e3-9625-431c-bdd1-22c3d71a7726

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @protonmail @esm @hexaheximal

  1. Why would I want to self-host when it doesn't provide me with any convincing benefits compared to , + or even .
kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@protonmail @esm @hexaheximal

  1. It's easier to audit a small, native app and even sandbox it into a single user that has literally 0 privilegues because a higher layer that doesn't allow said user to interact with it constricts it.

Thats's literally done with [ and where they're run as dedicaded users which have no privilegues excpet their own use-cases

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar
Jain,
@Jain@blob.cat avatar

@kkarhan @hexaheximal
Ok, the Gaslighting seems to be a issue of the federation...
On our server it looks like the order is: Posted, Edited, Answered.
But that doesnt mean that its the same Order for mstdn.social or even in both of your clients.

I know you both wont agree and you dont need to agree, thats fine. I rather suggest to both of you that you keep in mind that Federation has latency, Edits could easily missed and also certain Clients dont display Threads in a intuitive way.

And just to mention, even if it is Gaslighting, it needs more than just once in a heated discussion so that i take actions.

protonmail,
@protonmail@mastodon.social avatar

@kkarhan @hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal

There is no comparison between Crypto AG and us. Our encryption occurs client-side, our cryptographic code is open source ( https://proton.me/community/open-source ), and our tech can and has been independently verified. More about this here: https://proton.me/blog/is-protonmail-trustworthy.

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

@protonmail @kkarhan @esm @hexaheximal based

I've even looked at the network requests while using protonmail, and the messages are indeed encrypted. However, the subject and other metadata is not. Unfortunate, but understandable considering it's PGP, which does not encrypt metadata afaik.

protonmail,
@protonmail@mastodon.social avatar

@hexaheximal Yes, PGP has its limitations. However, PGP allows for interoperability and, being open source, it has security advantages. We are working on improving it too: https://proton.me/blog/openpgp-crypto-refresh

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@hexaheximal @esm @hexaheximal @protonmail I do work on getting that part fixed...
https://github.com/KBtechnologies/PocketCrypto

In the meantime, learn / (/MIME) and/or +...

Tools like make it even easier to do so...
https://github.com/life4/enc

Just like and on Desktops or on ...

hexaheximal,
@hexaheximal@blob.cat avatar

(also, special thanks to @Jain for adding such a large character limit here on blob.cat, hence why I chose to use this account for the reply)

dyne,

@kkarhan @esm XMPP does not exist

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@dyne @esm nice shitpost.

Did you buy it from wish.com or TEMU?

https://github.com/greyhat-academy/lists.d/blob/main/xmpp.servers.list.tsv

esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

@kkarhan @dyne as an active XMPP user I can confirm it does not exist

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@esm @dyne top lel!

dyne,

@kkarhan @esm no i fabbed it myself out of machined aluminum parts thank you very much

XMPP still does not exist

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar
dyne,
kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@dyne @esm You do professionally, do you?

dyne,

@kkarhan @esm With precious expensive laboratory equipment, yes

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@dyne @esm xDDDDDDD

experiencer,
@experiencer@lethallava.land avatar

@esm been using Matrix recently and there's a few issues that I've ran into, but I think it's more client based issues lol

definitely not the easiest thing to get into

esm,
@esm@wetdry.world avatar

@experiencer matrix protocol development seems to be focused almost entirely around the element client, to the point where the existence of other clients seems like an afterthought

experiencer,
@experiencer@lethallava.land avatar

@esm yeah I've noticed that element tends to be the standard, at least things are more diverse on fedi

kkarhan,
@kkarhan@mstdn.social avatar

@experiencer @esm Eeyupp...

And sadly @element does move in a direction that is closer and closer to so not good.

Confirms my decision to go with for again and again.

https://zulip.com

https://mstdn.social/@kkarhan/111404942780525408

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