The thing is that it really is no longer about 3rd party apps working or not, rather, the level of disrespect displayed from Reddit towards us, their userbase. That's why I'm not going back.
The only thing I'll be giving Reddit is my traffic, more than happy to lurk the comment but I definitely won't be posting, commenting, upvoting/downloading or helping admins by reporting spam and rule violations. None of that effort anymore
Traffic quality plays a big role too. If you never click on or engage with any ads your visits aren’t worth much anyway. You could even vpn yourself from a poor country and be considered even less valuable to the ad machines lol
The leadership is too much for me. Too many right wing shitbirds with conspiracy delusions, too much open partying with Ghislaine(sp?) Maxwell, and too many mishandled scandals relating to sexual content with minors.
Huffman (Spez) gave some interview where he talks about civilization falling and he’d “be a slaver rather than a slave” (paraphrasing, I don’t have the interview open) which is just wild because he’s scrawny as fuck.
There’s always rumors of an IPO but I feel like the current staff isn’t fit to head a public company and would crumble under wide public scrutiny like on the markets
It’d be a preferable situation if it were either/or but even then I realize I’m probably not big and bad enough to strong arm myself into that position everyone else would rather have.
Spez is/was a doomsday prepper though I think he figures he’s got an edge over everyone else
Little late to the game on this one but I did finally get my words to reflect how and why I feel I do about this situation, I commented it recently on another post but I'm gonna drop it here again as I hope it can add to this discussion.
I quit when rif went down. I've never used an official app, desktop site, mobile site etc. Rif was Reddit to me for 10 years. Maybe leaving as a collective will make some difference, maybe not, but I'm going to start being more firm on how much I'll let companies try to push me around expecting me to just take it. They built it on our backs, then just took it away so a literal select few can cash in, when they are already filthy rich and had other options.
I've been explaining it to others as if you broke your phone. Now it's frustrating getting used to a new phone, but it has lots of new features you never even thought of that make up for the inconveniences. Sure I could go back to my old phone, it's comfortable to use, but the screen is broken and it cuts me now and again, and over time it'll cut me more often. I'd rather get used to the new phone.
This past year I've dealt with food going up, gas, utilities, rent, hell cigarettes and even beer, my fishing license went up. Every single nook and cranny they can pull a cent from you they will.
I'm done choosing to let them. If they want my data, my attention, my content, they can pull it from my cold dead hands damnit.
After the whole Brock turner the rapist crusade (deserved) I've been sitting here scratching my head why spez wasn't named and shamed with his real name by the same group.
Give Apollo a contract guaranteeing free API access until the end of time without nonsense restrictions on content and maybe I'd think about it. Short of that I'm all set.
(No it's not just Apollo. But he's the most wronged and the one I use.)
Fact is even if Reddit rolled back the changes it’d be the classic “let’s see how far we can push our user base then we’ll roll that back to acceptable levels while slowly pushing those limits through later updates” strategy
Same. I used to use the official app because when I started using Reddit, I was not aware of third party apps. Then it was just inertia. After this fiasco started, I started trying various apps and used sync for the last 3 weeks. Now i'm here.
Reddit has made clear they have no respect for their users, especially their most active users responsible for creating and moderating their content. No matter what reddit does or doesn't do now, it is obvious it will continue to get worse.
It's also a wake up call to those who created content and did tons of free moderating for no gain other than personal prestige ... it is making us all realize that whenever we put in extra effort into a social media website that is privately owned - we create the content and reason for the sites existence but we don't financially benefit from it, someone else does who did no work to create any of it other than to claim ownership over everything.
It's the same old story from a thousand years ago or even the arguments of worker rights from the 1800s ... we create the means of production but we receive no benefit from our work
I’m struggling to find as much interesting content as I did on Reddit. BUT I am much more easily finding pleasant conversations. And that I think is more important.
I’m posting more here than I did on Reddit because I want to be the change I want! Also I’m still learning to navigate this place too. I like it though.
I'm having a different experience with the content but can understand where you are coming from. I spent a lot of time searching out the niche communities I'm interested in and subscribing across all the instances i can find. Trying to actually post more too and encourage others.
The conversation aspect is so true though. It's been the most present surprise and is part of what's driving me to engage and start posting.
The bots posted most of the interesting content in Reddit, and it’s unhealthy to have a constant stream of “interesting” content to browse through. For the time being, this seems much more organic content, and there is actually a bottom to hit in terms of content which makes me want to do something besides endlessly scroll.
I agree 100%. It became too stimulating, and with Memmy I don’t have this addicted feeling of having to browse for hours and hours, but I still find some cool stuff when I open the app
I was a RedReader user for quite a while (as in years). While being a bit spartan, I found it to be the best Reddit app for my preferences. Period.
But indeed, nowadays, there is actual (great) content on Lemmy and Kbin, and I am willing to get to it. Not much time left for Reddit. Sorry, spez, fuck you!
Reddit has already showed how much it cares about its users. We've tried going private, we've tried going restricted, we've tried going NSFW, we've tried spamming John Oliver posts, we've tried asking nicely in open letters, and Reddit has consistently given its community the middle finger in every single situation. And now that we've seen the admins change rules, remove mods, ban users, and break privacy laws, the plan is to just do the exact same thing they did before in the hopes that it'll work this time?
If a blackout on the platform was going to get Reddit to change its mind, that would've happened already. The time to induce change was two weeks ago, when the protests had lots of momentum. But it didn't work, and trying to make another stand now is going to be even less effective.
I still think that the best move is to leave Reddit for alternatives like /kbin, Lemmy, and Squabbles. Thankfully, some of the comments on the /r/ModCoord announcement are also saying this. Instead of desperately trying to cling to a platform that doesn't care about you, go somewhere else.
I get your point, but keeping it in the news and dialog outside of reddit is also good, and that is more likely to happen due to things going on inside of it.
At this point any reddit protests need to sort focus on tarnishing the platforms reputation further. They've made it clear they won't course correct.
Top of mind, spamming the subs with content that looks bad for them to remove. The ideal would be dirt on spez (e.g comments he made on /r/jailbait), but it could even be something more reserved like a charity link or "why I'm leaving" memes.
July 1 is a good excuse to get another news cycle out of this, and warn potential investors skeptical of the future of the company.
I've been going through and deleting my comments and posts as I get time (deleting your account doesn't delete your comments/posts). Once all my comments/posts are deleted, my account will get deleted as well.
YMMV, but as someone with Memory and Cognitive Impairment, I found it straight forward enough to use. You just need to drag a button to your bookmarks bar and then click it when you're on Reddit. Select what you want to edit and/or delete and go. Take a while to do (at least it did on my 6yo account) so I went off and did other stuff while waiting.
Thanks much! In another thread recently someone suggested that Power Delete Suite would quite working along with the other apps in a couple days, so I better get to it.
Why shouldn't they do it though? As if they had something to lose. I prefer this over just leaving the site and making it easy for Reddit to just instate new Moderators that want to lick ass and chew gum and they're all out of gum.
Don't take this comment as complete disagreement though, I get your point.
I think there is something to lose though. Aside from being a waste of time, it's a waste of user goodwill. We've already seen how momentum for this stuff wanes over time. If you wait too long before starting the migration process, people just won't be interested. Obviously, it's a gradual thing, but many moderators don't seem to have even started trying.
Which do you think is going to be more effective:
Spamming your sub with John Oliver shitposts, going private occasionally whenever /r/ModCoord says so, and then making plans to migrate when interest has gone down and people have returned to the status quo
Well that's the sad reality. I don't think most people want to move. They are hoping reddit fixes itself or at least compromises on their plans. I was in that same boat myself during the first blackout way back in 2015.
Ofc, I saw over 8 years how they proceeded to do almost none of their promises, implement actual user centric features when the loudest subs literally broke reddit, and threw in a bunch of stuff no one asked for: crappy video player, hiding QoL behind a paywall, polls that barely work on old reddit, adding NFTs over a year after the internet went to war with the concept?
Yeah, I'm a very patient man, but around 2019 I realized not much was going to change. And the coup dtat is that the communities themsselves have gotten more and more polarized over time. I remember a time where I could at least lightly touch into some political issues as long as I stick to smaller subs. During my last days (around the time blocks updated to be much worse) I was being blocked for correcting grammatical errors. Not minor stuff, stuff that would fundamentally change the meaning of their sentence.
So yea, I've given up. But it took me years after my "breaking point" and I'm sure for others they will be in the same boat
Mods should all leave en masse. Or stop moderating. Or moderate maliciously, deleting real posts, promoting spam, off-topic, etc. Sabotage at this point. Nothing will change Huffman's mind other than massive site-wide loss of users. And the only way to do that is to tank the quality of reddit. Either by sabotage or a simple lack of good moderators. Reddit simply couldn't find enough mods to keep reddit afloat if all of the ones organizing protests simply stopping working for free. It'd be bedlam overnight. That should be the organized protest.
I think something to remember is that some communities on Reddit are essential and important to people's wellbeing. There are subreddits that help people get through cancer, or help people with depression and suicide. I help (as best I can) with a subreddit that helps people with access to what can be life changing and life saving medical cannabis. Reddit, as much as I despise social media and centralisation of power and knowledge can be the sole place some people go for support. Of course it shouldn't be that way, but that doesn't change what it is currently.
Because of this, protests aren't just about shitposts or cat subreddits or whatever that anyone can find somewhere else or restart on the Fediverse. It's also about trying to force Reddit's hand into improving what there is so that the essential subreddits can continue (at least for now until a better alternative is created and folks have finished migrating there such as what r/blind has done).
I was part of a support group for people like me on Reddit. I still made the move. It’s time. I suggest those groups leave instructions on where to go.
You can find those kinds of helpful places on social media sites like Facebook too. That doesn't mean any of us want to go (back) there. Change, by definition, means that people are affected, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
Some people will stay there and become the "Boomers", some will move.
So the reason r/bind has already jumped to an alternative is because they are affected the most and the hardest.
The other kind of communities today that you mentioned are less impacted, so they can continue .. for now.
I do hope though that the right groups of people are looking into creating the better alternatives right now. The day may come when reddit decides these subs are too much of a liability - or even just not enough of a money maker - and yanks them. And there's no reason to believe that reddit would give them even as much warning as r/blind had.
Emphasizing not a suggestion to move right away, but make sure these places can start establishing backups so they don't exist solely at the whim of reddit.
start establishing backups so they don't exist solely at the whim of reddit.
This is the really essential point that I think bares repeating. Yes, these communities fill important roles, but that is EXACTLY why we should be pushing them on to other platforms.
They don't need to move entirely, but they should be trying to mirror themselves somewhere else.
Spez may not being going as power mad as Elon yet, but he's definitely looking over there, distracted boyfriend style.
The business side of things will churn along divorced from the content which will become ever more generic and culturally irrelevant. The users who stay on Reddit will be of the unadventurous variety, not inclined to make waves or analyze their habits.
To be fair, if it wasnt for the blackout it wouldnt have given me the motivation to finally move on to kbin. Im sure this will push others to do the same. If all it takes is to slowly dwindle the reddit user by doing the same thing then im all for it.
Of course, i do see why there shouod be more creative protests to switch things up and see what else works.
To be fair, if it wasnt for the blackout it wouldnt have given me the motivation to finally move on to kbin.
Absolutely same here. Because I use Mastodon a lot, I heard about kbin when it first came out, and poked over to look at it, but decided it was a bit too empty and rough around the edges, and stuck with Reddit. Then came the Blackout, and I went ahead and made an account.
As Reddit gets more enshittified and kbin and lemmy get more polished and active, we’ll start seeing a bigger shift.
Still sucks to leave a place you've invested so much time into, plenty of people have a decade worth of lurking, posting, upvoting etc. Not a great situation and I can understand people doing whatever they can to try and get a reasonable resolution
Absolutely. Personally, I have been part of Reddit only for a few months, and with the speed of adoption of alternatives you've mentioned, we will be perfectly fine in just a few months from now. By the way, /kbin looks awesome; I like the UI and overall speed.
Two reasons the ongoing Reddit protests are important:
the protests keep the pressure on reddit and can lead to ongoing news coverage (which also keeps the pressure on reddit) . Otherwise, reddit will be able to spin the narrative "see? we told you it would just blow over and it did"
kbin, Lemmy, and other alternatives aren't yet at the point where they're ready for millions of redditors. For example, the modCoord post makes the important point that a lot of reddit's moderation functionality isn't accessible ... but almost none of this functionality even exists yet on kbin and Lemmy. So most people aren't going to leave yet.
Don't get me wrong, leaving now is also a good option if you can find what you want elsewhere! But not everybody's there yet.
I think a LOT of folks overlook point 2. Kbin.social was a halting mess for a few days during the Blackout, because they had to enable Cloudflare to keep the servers from imploding on themselves. There still aren’t that many kbin instances yet, and more instances is how you handle large influxes. The platform needs time to stabilize before large groups of Redditors come over.
In 2016 I was coming out of a nasty depression. I wound up falling into a smaller subreddit and even became a ‘cool kid’ with a group of folks from it. We spun up a group chat and became very good friends - to the point of sharing our lives, meeting each other, and in my case - I started dating someone from the chat, and she moved halfway across the country to live with me. She is my forever person.
Last week, I was thinking about what had been lost in the 10+ years of comments and posts that I had either overwritten or deleted. So much of my life was shared there. And so much of my future will be determined by experiences there. I legitimately cried.
But change is inevitable, and we’ll always make the best of it.
I agree: migrating a community is really challenging. I'm a subreddit moderator myself, and when we were initially discussing this stuff, there was a lot of doubt because of how daunting the task is. Mods from other subs see the challenges as reason to not even try. However, I think it's important that people at least make the attempt given the current state of Reddit.
Something that I think people should keep in mind is that this stuff is gradual and doesn't have to happen all at once, especially since the alternatives aren't fully polished yet. Even just establishing a small, active community outside of Reddit (like people have been doing with all these fediverse communities) is a big win.
Some of the best things we can do right now are
providing feedback and suggestions for alternatives
making sure alternatives are approachable (/m/quickstart is great)
simply being active and providing stuff to do here
I think the best thing we can do is what we’re doing now - creating new spaces and communities over on kbin and Lemmy, while the platforms are making improvements. Right now, kbin isn’t really ready for a huge inrush - I love it, but it’s so very unfinished and not intuitive, and there are no third party apps (yes, you can use the website, yes, you can make an icon on your home screen that acts like an app; it is not the same. The mobile site is a mess). People fed up enough to leave Reddit will put up with a lot that most folks won’t. So let’s keep building up what’s being built here, and when people do get ready to leave, there’ll be an established, more polished place for them to come to.
Sites don’t usually die at once; it’s usually steady attrition. That’s what will happen to Reddit if they don’t get themselves sorted.
Absolutely. I do understand continuing the protesting after the first of the month, and I commend the participating moderators for their efforts. However building a new community and leaving Reddit behind is really the only feasible solution that impacts their site in the long run. Eventually those protesting moderators are going to either capitulate, or lose their positions. Reddit is not going to change this. They've dug in.
I've lurked on Reddit since the blackout, but I haven't participated. My comments are deleted and today is the last day I go there to browse (fitting as today is my cake day....RIP 11 years of Reddit). After the first of the month I'm going to see if any of my comments are restored, delete them and/or replace them with gibberish or corny quip, and then delete my account.
Happy Kake day 🍰 Happy Key lime pie day? Happy Klondike Bar day? Happy Kuchen day?
I still need my Reddit account to provide support to folks. But I've been deleting everything non-support related. Thousands of comments over the years. Reading back through some of them, I feel sad at the hours I put into some of the longer ones and the comradery and funnies... end of an era. Here's to a brighter future full of more comradery, interesting discussions and silly fun 🥂
some of those mods are likely thinking that moving would destroy the community they worked so hard to manage
they aren't wrong. It will massively deflate their community. That's an ineivtability of how lurkers on the internet work. They aren't there for community, they are there for easy passive browsing.
What can we do to help them transition?
"we" as in the common person? It won't be a fast track. There will need to be a steady supply of content for a certain topic, and a stream of discussion. Unfortunately the best way to help as a single person is to basically become that sweaty forever online person. The first step to the Network Effect is to generate enough content to engage with.
If "we" have developers or artists that can be one bigger step to help out. contribute to making apps and extensions to either bridge the gap or overcome current shortcomings of these federated instances. Even amongst techy communities there is a lot of confusion to how instances work. So some app to make it dead simple to browse and comment (while later allowing options for power users) is key. Sync committing to working with Lemmy/KBin is definietly a bit help.
Most of the rest is up to the instance admins. SEO, improving features, getting good moderatiors, etc. None of that is in out control, we can only give feedback
My feeling at this point is that spaz really just wants to check out. He knows, or perhaps has realized now that in the process he's going to kill his platform, but that's not an issue to him. Social networks go in cycles and maybe he saw some hint reddit was in the downturn, or maybe he just wants to take his money now while the value is still there.
He waited too long. Reddit was probably booming then. He should have ridden that high into an IPO and started the process in mid/late-2020 once WFH started taking off.
Spez definitely has "smartest guy in the room" vibes, you know the type, they think they're the smartest person in any given room, regardless of evidence.
He's openly praised Elon Musk'd cost-cutting measures at Twitter.
Spez genuinely seems to think that everything he does is good and right, and that users will come crawling back, because he thinks that his horrible, broken site is the only option for people to spend their time. It seems to be a combination of arrogance and entitlement.
That's the last stage of #enshittification : You've squeezed your "customers"/products and now you squeeze your 3rd parties in order to generate value for shareholders. That 2nd squeeze was booting 3rd party apps and hamstringing moderators. The value for shareholders is the increased ad views and spez reaps that during the IPO.
Oh I think he's clearly done with reddit and just wants the juicy IPO cash. There's no way he'd be happy to burn so many bridges with the community if that weren't the case.
Some people have trouble letting go I guess. First of all, after all that has happened why any developer would choose to continue doing business with Reddit is beyond me. Reddit has demonstrated they will shaft you on a moment's notice (ok a month's notice), go back on their word, lie about developers for PR points, etc. Reddit is not a good business partner.
Second, who is this even for? What percentage of Relay users are going to pay for a limited version of Reddit with usage limits? The only reason Reddit is making these deals with Relay and Narwhal is because Reddit thinks they won't succeed in staying alive. Reddit thinks the vast majority of Relay/Narwhal users will decide its too expensive to use these apps to get a worse experience, so will end up on the official app. Reddit gets to hold these up as examples of reasonable developers who were willing to work with Reddit, unlike those crying babies that are closing their apps. And if Reddit is wrong, and Relay/Narwhal stay profitable and active, then we're just back to point 1 - Reddit will just turn the screws on the API pricing until they get crushed.
This just feels like an abusive relationship. Dave just needs to accept reality - Reddit TPA's are dead (and Reddit as a whole isn't long for this world either). I've used Relay for years, very disappointed in the developer. I'm still deleting July 1.
Exactly this. Relay was a great app and I will miss it and Reddit. I would love for Dbrady to start fresh with Relay for Lemmy but I imagine that is quite a bit of work and maybe he just doesn't feel up to it. I wish him the best no matter what happens!
Thanks for this well-written roundup of what's going on. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I just hope the dev doesn't rack up debt in the time the app is free...
But maybe Reddit is okay with a few 3rd party apps surviving if it means they can charge such a ridiculous premium on API requests. Perhaps they didn't think any dev would be crazy enough to take them up on their offer. But at that point, they're raking in so much money that they might not care those users are on a 3rd party app.
That’s a fair point. If Relay and co hang on to a few thousand users and pay a cost per month 5x what it’s worth to reddit to have those users on its app, your right reddit might be like fuck it this works for us. At the end of the day, whatever is most profitable to reddit. For the most part, that means using the official reddit app so reddit can track you. But if some dumb devs are willing to pay more than Reddit would get from direct data harvesting, let them go. No, I think your right.
I think a few apps is key though, they want the majority of their users locked in.
Reddit gets to hold these up as examples of reasonable developers who were willing to work with Reddit, unlike those crying babies that are closing their apps.
This deserves to be repeated. Like… I get why one would want to not let their project die, but we all know this is exactly what’s going to happen. These few who remain will funnel a ton of money into Reddit’s pocket for a worse experience all so that they can be used to further slander the devs of the 3PAs who were forced out from the API changes. In a couple months when the last few 3PAs inevitably go under, I don’t know if a single tear will be shed because the writing on the wall is so obvious.
I just feel bad for the devs of TPA. They created so much value for reddit when reddit didn't even HAVE an app. Then reddit shafts them so hard for all the work they put in. Fuck reddit.
I also use Relay, and I'm not sure how I feel about this move. I'm using reddit less and less since the blackout, and mostly just to check on the protest at this point. I love the Relay app, and DBrady is an incredible dev, but I refuse to give money to reddit after this whole debacle, especially for an app that will be stripped of it's full capability,
Don’t forget, “We’re gonna pay some of our staff to go to cool cities to meet several of you! What an incredible opportunity for them to get frequent flier miles and for you to show up (again, unpaid) at a fake meeting in your free time. This will surely have some kind of impact on how we run things, in that nothing will change whatsoever.”
It just brings up RiF for me, which doesn’t work. I’ve only 99% left though, so I can’t pihole it. I copy over some content and use the pages that turn up on Google search results.
Pretend your the mod of a moderately sized subreddit. You have third party tools you rely on to help keep your community functioning. Reddit takes away your tools, then tells you “you can spend more of your free time in a pointless meeting with us”
It also is the statement “we’re here to listen to you” in response to a protest with a lot of clear demands. There was no concession or acknowledgement of the possibility of any. There was no apologies for the absolute assholery of the CEO. There wasn’t even an acknowledgement that they’re the ones in the wrong.
It’s like if you’ve been sleeping on the couch until your spouse stops cheating on you and they say “I know you’re mad, but let’s talk this out after work tomorrow” like no, you have to say sorry and that you’ll stop, then we need to talk about how to rebuild the shattered trust.
I can’t tell what that person’s intent is because the post is filled with “I’m sorry you’re upset” platitudes that accept no responsibility or even an understanding of why the mods are so upset in the first place; just more unpaid work they’re expected to do to keep it from happening again.
Unlucky, didn’t see this until after I clicked. The new default for posts about reddit here on Lemmy should be that any links are just screenshots or archived versions or something
On one hand Im happy to see that dumpster fire ignite even more. Then on the other hand Im happy to see all those mods end up not being listened to and frustrated by those who have the power.
I picture the employees playing rock, paper, scissors to determine who was going to have to make that post; I can’t imagine any of them didn’t know how this was going to play out.
…And the dude that won (lost?) didn’t even know how to link his own username. It looks like he did it via an actual hyperlink! Now that is fantastic example out of touch management.
Yes they problem is we haven’t given them enough feedback. Surely if we have them now feedback they would understand the problem. Shutting down the entire website for multiple days was not clear.
“We’re gonna have meaningful weekly meetings with all the hundreds or thousands of you, and we’re gonna take the opportunity to really listen. Now, this isn’t just some platitude to quiet you until we take the company public, but you know, we might suddenly get too busy for these once we’re diving into our piles of cash.”
“We’re gonna compile your input and file it away somewhere safe. Look! I already bought a basket to hold all of them and lined it with a plastic bag! And when my comment can gets reeeeeeaaaallllllly full, I’ll file your comments into a larger bin until the city files those comments with the other valuables!”
“We wanna show you how much we care. We care sooooooooo much that we’re gonna visit you on our “Fuck you, I Wanna be Rich” vacation! We’re gonna see the country and occasionally talk to people in a patronizing tone. For all the shit-holes we don’t feel like visiting, we’re gonna throw you a pizza party! It’s gonna be super revolutionary cuz it’ll be a virtual pizza party! Pay for your own food and watch us eat pizza while we explain to you that you’re not really upset with us, you’re just scared of change and passionate about things that don’t make us rich. Remember to dress up nice, we’d hate for you poors to make us look bad.”
I agree with your last point so much. I also used the official app and had a 12 year account, but fuck if I am going to just stand by and watch another corporate board make our world a bit more miserable for the sake of their profit. Let them have dust.
Pretty much the same. I didn’t mind the Reddit app and even paid the monthly fee because I wanted to support a site that I used daily. I also had Apollo and used it and was pretty indifferent between the two. Each had their positives and negatives and don’t mind paying a fee as long as it is reasonable but I can’t turn a blind eye to the bullshit u/spez is pulling.
I'm a Relay user. I found the amount of ads and pushed content/gimmicks on the official reddit app and 'new' mobile website (which is already straight up hostile to browser users, very intrusively pushing the app) aggravating and found old.reddit not super usable on mobile, where I spend most of my life (RIP).
I was hopeful the Relay dev could find a pricing mechanism which would enable him to continue, but to be honest, as long as I know where my main communities will migrate to I'm no longer broken-hearted that I wont be on reddit - although I feel for the devs who have had so much work ripped out from under them in this way. The direction of Reddit as a company is clearly laid out before us with spez's and admins' responses and what is looking to happen with piracy, NSFW etc content, and they do not want to support all the things that make it great. They seem to almost hate its whole raison d'etre - its widely open and extensive community forums, development/tech led userbase, its potential for a very easy-to-read but user-specific or incredibly niche experience if wanted.
I understand how this means they are not profitable like more algorithm-intensive and centralised social media companies with stronger ad platforms, and I would, like the devs, very much understand some sort of pricing for API access. But their aggression and lack of communication, the kind of PR- or IPO-led choices they're making and general 'snoo'tiness (sorry) makes it clear that they're a company I no longer really support. Especially if they're taking anything Elon says seriously, blimey.
I support the reddit userbase and community, I'm not loyal to a random brand - I've been on there for >10 years as well but only because it felt like the website was just the vehicle for the underlying communities, rather than the headline company plastering itself on everything (apart from the occasional r/place sort of event). Now they're pushing their branding over the content so much I'm glad to be rid of it, just like meta and twitter.
Similarly, had no 3rd party add but was so disgusted by how the company has acted that I'll never be able to use them again in good conscious. It feels like these sort of corporate moves of "eat a bag of shit or don't eat at all" have been really ramping up as of late. You do things that you know your users or customers won't like and then see how they'll react. Did a lot leave? Some did but now I know that the ones that are left will take whatever financial or TOS curveball that I can think up. I can make more money by providing less options, and shittier service, but I'll say the exact opposite. And when the thing we do brakes or charges you 5x the amount you signed up for then our customers will need to take half a day to get around every dead end automated messenger and customer call line that takes 2+ hours because of "covid."
They say, as if there aren't an immeasurable & expanding number of alternative options on the internet besides eating off their plate? Like I'm just going to eat across the street lmao reddit users are not a captive market.
This is similar to me. I used Reddit's official app, so initially I wasn't bothered by 3rd party apps going away. But seeing Reddit's response, which is basically "users will bow down and do what we want, they will generate revenue for us and not complain, and we will never listen to them", is what made me not want to use Reddit again. So now I'm not using it.
Same here. I feel so bad that Christian is having to deal with all this. He’s doing a spectacular job at defending himself from the corporate attacks but he shouldn’t have to. I really hope he gets more visibility in the media, because all the articles I’ve been seeing in the mainstream are from spez perspective and that’s a shame.
Between misrepresenting their conversations with app devs and mods, and trying to spin a different story in media outlets, and lumping me into a "database of human conversation"... I really don't want to contribute to or engage with a company like that in any way. None of it directly affects me but I see no reason to help assholes out with free content, ad views, or votes.
The moderators were recently contacted by u/ModCodeofConduct, who had this to say:
We noticed you recently marked your community NSFW. This action is likely to confuse your community members, as people subscribe to communities based on the content at the time of subscription. This is a violation of the Mod Code of Conduct rule 2.
While we recognize communities can gradually change as they grow, when your content suddenly changes from generally safe for work to sexually explicit, it harms the community members.
While we can see you haven't taken the step of approving sexually explicit content, we need to separate your community from the communities that abruptly become NSFW and post sexually explicit content, situations in which we immediately take action. Please correct the NSFW marking on your subreddit so that we can separate your community from those violating sitewide rules.
Thank you.
As subscribers to r/PICS are aware, the moderators here have worked very hard to ensure that the community adheres to every mandate and message that Reddit has surfaced. Unfortunately, we were unable to state as much to u/ModCodeofConduct, as they disabled the ability for us reply.
We do not wish Reddit to think that we have ignored their attempt at contact (which would be very rude of us), so we will be offering our response here. We apologize for locking the thread, but as Reddit has yet to answer our previous letter, we are operating under the assumption that it went unseen amongst other comments.
We appreciate your concerns regarding r/PICS being marked as NSFW, and we hope that you will be reassured by our response. In short, the shift in question was not a sudden change, nor is there any risk of users being confused… and most important of all, an abrupt reversion would itself constitute a violation of the site-wide rules that you cited.
On June 16th, 2023, r/PICS (then r/Pics) asked its subscribers to vote on the state of the subreddit, and they overwhelmingly decided to feature only “images of John Oliver looking sexy.” On June 20th, 2023, a second poll was held, and it was determined that “any and all media featuring John Oliver” would be allowed. This also precipitated a change in the subreddit’s name from “/r/Pics” to “/r/PICS,” with the latter being an acronym for “Posts Illuminating Comedian’s Sexiness.”
As we moderated r/PICS, however, we discovered that large amounts of profanity and offensive content – both of which are listed as NSFW by Reddit’s policies – were present in non-NSFW threads. This was problematic, as users expecting work-safe experiences were very likely to encounter non-work-safe material. Rather than abruptly alter our rules without first consulting the community (which would have confused users), we asked on June 26th, 2023 for subscribers to refrain from offering any NSFW content in non-NSFW threads.
We also requested a response from Reddit on that same date.
By July 3rd, 2023, the amount of profanity and offensive content in r/PICS had not declined, and Reddit had not responded to us. It was publicly announced that we had no choice but to mark the subreddit as being NSFW, so as to adhere to Reddit’s own mandates. It was also made clear that our longstanding rules – rules which should have seen r/Pics (in any form) being a NSFW community from the get-go – would be unchanged; that neither gore nor pornography would be allowed, but that tasteful nudity, profanity, and “offensive” content would continue to be acceptable. To reiterate, while we do celebrate a British comedian’s undeniable allure, we do not allow anything sexually explicit to be posted.
Our surfaced resources – our sidebar, our rules, our wiki, and our announcements – make all of this exceptionally clear, but since Reddit provides no method by which users can be required to read said resources before participating, the visible marking of r/PICS as NSFW is vital to establishing reasonable expectations. Furthermore, as Reddit assures its partners that their advertisements will not run alongside profanity or offensive content, the aforementioned marking is also in said partners’ best interests. That same assurance indicates that moderators “set their own standards for conduct and ‘appropriate’ content,” indicating that r/PICS is solely responsible for determining what is and is not offensive (and policing accordingly). A failure on our part to appropriately list r/PICS as NSFW would therefore run counter to what advertisers have been told.
We do understand that the shift may have caused some minor issues for Reddit, however, and as we have no desire to harm the platform, we are more than willing to discuss the situation with you. Please respond to our previous request for communication, and we will look forward to exploring productive paths forward. In the meantime, to ensure that r/PICS is adhering to all of Reddit’s guidelines and requests, we would be happy to revert the NSFW setting, restrict posting, and remove any and all content that could be considered “offensive” by anyone. If this compromise does not meet with your approval, please offer a publicly visible comment in response to our open letter. We understand that you are likely very busy, so we will wait until Friday, July 7th before taking any additional steps.
Reddit will replace the mods with those friendly to Admins/Spez and revert back to the way the sub was run prior to the blackout and malicious compliance. This is unfortunately, the only way it's going to end now.
Replace the mods with who? Reddit doesn't have an endless supply of compliant free labor they can just assign willy-nilly to whatever subs they desire. Especially now that the masks are off about what Reddit admins really think about moderators.
I'm giving the most plausible scenario. They don't need a mod from r/pics to take over; they can use anyone who is power hungry enough to do the job.
Not saying I like it, or agree with it, just giving the most plausible option for Reddit to take at this point.
Because, let's be clear about this, Reddit is winning this battle even if they won't win the war. This overall event spells the end of the site as we know it...or knew it. The malicious compliance, changing to NSFW, the broad interpretation of the rules...it doesn't matter. Reddit is going to win this, or appear to win this in the short term, even if it entirely kills their future. They'll kill a 20 million subscriber subreddit to do it if they need to.
And I'm pointing out how this "most plausible scenario" ends in ruin for Reddit. If Reddit's most popular subs are being run by people whose literally only qualification for the role is that they are power hungry, what kind of subreddit will those end up being? The mods won't be doing anything to cultivate the quality of the place, they likely won't even know what "quality" is. They'll just come up with a bunch of rules to enforce, throwing their weight around pointlessly and alienating anyone who sticks around long enough to interact with them. They probably won't even be good "janitor" moderators because proper janitoring is a lot of hard work that doesn't necessarily result in you receiving the sort of adulation that a power-hungry person would actually crave. Why spend hours dealing with meaningless spam that only bots will see you blocking when you get more of a thrill from bossing around people who slipped up on some technicality or rule that you implemented primarily so that people would slip up on them?
And if the admins try ordering you to do the spam-patrol grunt work with the threat of kicking you out, well, you don't actually care. They're not paying you and you have no interest in the community itself. Rinse and repeat.
In the meantime, to ensure that r/PICS is adhering to all of Reddit’s guidelines and requests, we would be happy to revert the NSFW setting, restrict posting, and remove any and all content that could be considered “offensive” by anyone.
Hmm. So they are superficially giving in, they won't keep NSFW on to avoid ads money for reddit. But by going restricted, and going after all "offensive" content (could I read that to mean all John Oliver content? i.e. all content since the protests started) they stand to cause a massive drop in traffic to the sub, which should still hurt the bottom line.
This is exactly what they're gonna do. I'd love to see them implement something like what /r/politicalhumor did and set up automod to react to user comments. So for example, if anyone says "the is offensive" it deletes the post and bans the user
Note the statement to remove any and all offensive content. If they're still going the malicious compliance route, they're implying they're going to nuke the sub.
The app still works for me. But I've been hearing Reddit has shut down the old mod API token, but not the regular token yet. So that might explain a little. However, RedReader was granted accessibility exemption so who knows what's going on.
I’m not going to go to Reddit to read a call to action. Is the call to action, “boycott Reddit?” If so, I have good news for you… if the call to action is something other than “stop using Reddit,” it’s the wrong call to action.
I'm 42. Last year I was 41 and discovered the name of the song is "Tijuana Taxi". This year I discovered "Regular Gas". It has nothing to do with the discussion, but hopefully future someone will be like "hmm" and (re)discover a gem.
@Frog@kbin.social True! If it is Important to know, dear @DeadNinja, please copy the TEXT over here, not a link to reddit. We don't want traffic to go there, we want traffic from there to migrate over here. :)
Glanced over it. Complete word salad. Corporate nonsense: baffle them with bullshit.
You get points from communities. These points are stored on the block chain, because why not? The points themselves come from reddit, but the communities distribute them. Since they’re on the block chain, reddit can’t take back your magic bean points or whatever once you get them. Nevermind that they’re worthless and that reddit controls the only platform that they’re even remotely useful on.
For now, Reddit will cover gas costs for distributing Points to users and allowing them to spend Points on features such as Special Memberships.
Emphasis mine. Someone has to pay for it, because that’s how the block chain works. For now it’s Reddit. In the future? Who knows!
How does this benefit the consumer? It doesn’t, really. Potentially it gives posters more control over a subreddit, but looks like mods will still hold essentially all the power when it comes to a subreddit, which is how it works now.
How does this benefit reddit as a business? It doesn’t, really. They’re handing out magic beans with the selling point being that they can’t take them away from you once you get them. It costs them money to do this, because it’s on the block chain as opposed to some in-house database. This replaced coins, right? They killed an income stream and replaced it with an expense.
They get to tell investors that they’re into the block chain when they launch their IPO, I guess. All I can say is buyer beware. Chances are high the powers that be unload their stock options in the IPO hype and then get the hell out of dodge. They might have waited too long, though. The tech bubble deflated, and I don’t know if the books are impressive enough to draw in the big bucks from investors.
If you want genuine control over your community, start one on the Fediverse and self-host an instance. No admins will kick you off since you’re your own admin and head mod rolled into one.
They’re handing out magic beans with the selling point being that they can’t take them away from you once you get them.
And that’s not even true in any practical sense. If reddit decides that the token in your crypto wallet is invalid, then it’ll stop working on reddit. And since they’re the only issuer every possible use is going to be tied to reddit in some sense.
Thank you for making this more understandable. It really feels like a “the people who pay us more will have a louder voice” and I am grossed out, if that’s the case.
its main value to the owners is that it is a more direct means of controlling user behavior.. once they get people used to "real" rewards, they can better use the platform as a means of controlling discourse.. which is why the Mukser is doing it on the other thing, and where they got the idea..
they're trolls.. they want to use it to troll harder..
How does this benefit reddit as a business? It doesn’t, really
$5/month per community
You may have missed it, but they snuck in that Special Memberships (subreddit subscriptions, which unlock badges and emojis and stuff) cost $5 a month per subreddit, outside of Reddit Premium. You can also spend 1000 Community Points, but if you don’t have the balance and want the benefits, you’ll be giving reddit money.
It feels like reddit has come to understand how much closer redditors feel to their communities than reddit as a whole - reddit is hated, but users still cling to their communities. A sitewide Reddit Premium badge is irrelevant, even repugnant and a badge of shame, but special flairs and features in close knit communities are still desirable.
This is reddit exploiting their users’ relationships with their communities with a stackable 5 buck alternative to Reddit Premium.
I still don’t really get who gets the money from this special membership? I understand people subscribe to YouTube and twitch personalities because they want to support the creator and they get most of the money, but what incentive does anyone have to buy this community membership here? Is it really just the special avatars/badges/whatever?
Clout in a community they care about. I can’t relate to wanting it, but people buy clout all the time online and in games. This is basically a more personalized Twitter Blue.
They also said something about community points being usable for moderation/governance. Does that mean people can come in and save/buy enough Community Points to enact a coup?
Like, Atheists could get enough Christianity sub credits and ban all the Christians? Or bigots could seize an LGBTQ+ sub? It seems kinda like a nightmare waiting to happen if so.
Reddit is both stating the protests are having no or minimal effect, whilst at the same time giving away free ad-space to try and keep advertisers, and doing everything it can to force subreddits to re-open. The protestors are both weak, and strong, depending on which argument makes Reddit look less-terrible at any given time.
to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again
Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
When the API shut off early, Apollo dev u/iamthatis (@ChristianSelig) revoked his token so I cannot see any of this; but I’m wondering if reddit isn’t pulling a silent reversal of this to stem the bleeding of users and content. There is a lot of useful stuff that has been deleted. The AMA staff resigning and all the stuff migrating to fedi. No matter how much f-u/spez tries to shout “This is fine”; the building is still burning all around him.
I thought access would essentially be the same from the app's perspective, just the app builders would start getting MASSIVE bills in the mail? And they were shutting it down preemptively to avoid this.
Reddit is supposed to block api access to anyone not in a contract with them. This is why all the apps stopped working early yesterday. Reddit had to turn access on to any app that is staying. That is why this is weird. Unless all these apps are in deals with Reddit.
That was my understanding, also. I read that the first billing for devs would be sent on Aug 1, so developers who did not want to pay shut their apps down on June 30 so they wouldn't have even one bill for API use. However, it also sounds like Reddit shut off the API early from what Christian Selig said so they continued their petty games.
On top of the other replies, here is a short and simple video explaining the basic concept behind the fediverse (which is the umbrella term used to describe the network which Lemmy and kbin instances are part of)
syncing to other lemmy's and kbins is not that big of a problem if you're popular, the first subscriber from an instance will be quick
you mod everything on the main instance.
For what my 2c are worth, I think legaladviceuk is probably the clearest in terms of discoverability. Despite a community existing on a UK-focused instance, it's ambiguous as to whether it's UK specific.
In the end though, it probably doesn't matter too much, as long as the instance is being actively maintained and is in tune with the values of the community.
Setting up your own instance would actually probably be the best idea but if there's no one technical around to maintain it I'm not sure it would work out.
Lemmy and Kbin are hopefully gonna grow and become better than Reddit has ever been, but they're not there yet and will be a while before it happens. Specifically, moderation tools in both platforms are reportedly weak at the moment, with a long list of features yet to be implemented. So while i do want the so-called Threadiverse growing, if you're in a moderating hotspot as your post mentions, you might wanna consider this detail and check if the current tools as present are good enough or not, it might be enough for your needs with what exists already but frankly the subs I've modded have been tiny and i don't have the mental model to tell you if they are already.
I too urge you to not choose Discord for this community for all the reasons stated. Plus it's the wrong tool for the job, it's "chat", not "forums", it's by it's nature impermanent and for ephemeral conversation. Hell, a good old forum will be miles better than Discord for this.
Hello, LAUK mod! Thank you for all the good help you've given people over the years.
whilst excitedly looking to treat you like Elon treated 6,500 twitter employees.
I don't know if it's been forgotten in all the confusion, but two weeks ago, reddit since that they were laying off about 90 staff / 5% of their workforce, and restructuring some of the rest [ https://www.axios.com/pro/media-deals/2023/06/07/reddit-layoffs-hiring-ipo ]. And now, if course, in addition to the layoff/restructuring issues, in addition to the absolute insanity caused by reddit's stubborn reaction to the very people who populate and moderate 99% of the data on their site, their workers are also more having to deal with Huffman breathing down their necks, insisting that it's absolutely vital that they deliver a fully-functioning set of mod tools on the 1st - tools that they've repeatedly refused to even really look at for over a decade. [I expect a shit show.]
But anyway, just wanted to point out that the reddit layoffs are already starting.
You should do a poll like pics and say should we only allow posts not requesting legal advice and any replies to questions to indicate it would be inappropriate to provide legal advice on reddit. Any legal advice will be removed.
You might want to remove your links and edit these ones in, as they currently won't work in a confusing way. There's still a lot of rough edges on the Fediverse.
It may be easier if you hosted your own Lemmy instance and guiding Redditor’s to that, check out oracle always free tier, I believe you can get a 24GB RAM Arm 4 OCPUs, which is definitely enough spec to hit the ground running with a few thousands subscribers. If you end up needing higher spec than that, you could start a donation pot, giving the help the sub provides, I feel safer in saying you’d get enough donations.
You get a wan IP too, you just need to buy an instance domain, exactly the same as buying any other domain and point it to you IP.
It would be the most seamless way to migrate imv, don’t have to deal with both kbins problems and potential problems of Lemmy, where you aren’t in control of the server hosting all your material.
Happy to try and assist, pro bono, if you like this idea and need my help.
If you do it that way, Lemmy at least will fill in whichever instance the user is on, so they can participate. On the bright side, they clearly fixed the "can't respond to Kbin users" issue.
@Litigant@kbin.social you guys are badasses, you made my night. I wish you good luck. I love that you're competent enough to strike well. I hope to see you in the lemmyverse, be it on kbin or lemmy or anywhere. 😁
I hope you finally decide to adopt a user-centric moderation approach. As of now the LA community on Reddit is pretty toxic and anti user, favoring mod circle jerking. Essentially, it seems that as long as you are a dickhead within the rules and you don't bother the mods, then you can fuck with other users as much as you want. It also favors nonsense stories, which are clearly a creative writing exercise for use on those automated YouTube channels and clickbait garbage that gets posted elsewhere.
Spez is an asshole, but he's right about reddit mods. They think they are entitled to control everything.
I kind of want everyone who has anything to do with moderating reddit to fuck off into the sunset.
Obviously I'm biased and would love to see the subreddit end up in the fediverse, but I'm glad you guys are taking your time and trying to figure out what medium and what platform is the best fit for what y'all do.
If legaladvice is available on feddit.uk, you should try to snag that, too. As a UK-based (or focused -- I know servers are often hosted in other countries than the users they serve) instance, the UK is already in the domain. Though, I also get why you might want it right there in the community handle directly, given how which website a given community is hosted on is not always crystal clear in the current site designs.
I am cautious of taking ownership too much, as we might not end up using them and wouldn't want to domain-squat, so in theory I would be open to letting other people take control or decide to moderate them if they felt they were fully invested.
Non Americans kind of get an extra benefit from being able to choose an instance from their home country meaning they get content related to their location (and in their own language for non english countries) without having to seek that out, or having a company use that information to sell you products. I'm speaking as an American myself so people from other places can chime in if I'm somehow wrong
Frankly one of my favorite parts about the blackout - and opinions like this - is that Lemmy is going to end up being populated by people who have the capacity to think about others and form intelligent opinions. All of the people with this attitude will stay on reddit, which is what will ultimately kill it. I hope he stays.
That’s what I’m hoping and expecting. The people who left are better quality contributors. Those that stayed are addicts or just casual users who don’t know don’t care.
An unfortunate corollary of that is that we can only have a limited good time in the Fediverse. Eventually Reddit collapses and then they will all flock over and ruin it for us. (Or this’ll happen very gradually rather than suddenly.)
That’s been their mission ever since they bought and killed alien blue and released a pile of shit in its place. They can’t make a good app so have been slowly tying more and more exclusive features to it, and to new Reddit, hoping that this new shiny useless thing that no one asked for or wanted will get people to use it. I think with interest rates rising, their investors are looking for profits higher than t bills and so this trend that has been going on for the past few years is now kicked into overdrive.
Like, they’re giving users monopoly money, and try to pass it off as control. Like, the fuck are they gonna do with the monopoly money?
Plus imagine if users actually believe the monopoly money is important. We’re back on the days of BB Forums where you can make a factual point but oops, you’re level 2 and the forum regular (4506 posts) just called you a cocksucker.
Edit: Oh god, the moderator wallet thing. They’re letting moderators moderate themselves. This is going to set off a massive amount of infighting as some admins will take the whole wallet and the other moderators will call them out and the seriousness of the whole thing (moderation teams not getting along) will get drowned out with all the people shitposting about fighting for monopoly money.
I think that’s their point, to sound like the Fediverse but is actually a different way for them to get money and control the narrative. They’re also possibly trying to take away shutting down shitty sites “by giving the communities control.”
They’ve updated their preview feature TOS as recently as last month to push forward with avatars and community points, I reckon they’re just biding time to sync it with the next bull run to maximise value and heighten chance of seeming like they have genius cutting edge foresight.
The bottom of that’s also funny because it makes it clear their smart contract is permissioned and if they don’t like what you do with your virtual goods they can remove them from you. Very immutable, wow, such ownership.
Thanks for this! I was having trouble finding anything with a recent date on it related to Community Points.
That makes me wonder if Reddit is trying to keep this under wraps until release date, so that their remaining userbase doesn’t have another protest. It’s kind of crazy that they have been working on this crypto garbage for three years, yet don’t have the foresight to see that this is going to backfire. Is there anyone, aside from crypto bros., that are even interested in crypto and NFTs anymore?
“Failure to follow and comply with the above rules may constitute a breach of the Previews Terms and result in a temporary or permanent ban from Reddit or certain subreddits or removal of your access to Reddit Econ Goods.”
So they can take your coins at any time if they don’t approve of something that you do.
“By using any Feature, you understand that the Feature may be canceled at any time for any or no reason, in our sole discretion, without advance notice or liability to Reddit. We reserve the right to modify, suspend, or discontinue any Feature (in whole or in part) at any time, with or without notice to you…There will be no refunds if any Feature is no longer usable on or through the Services.”
Also, they can get rid everyone’s coins at any time without reimbursing them. I hope Community Points will be the final nail in Reddit’s coffin. It would be really funny if Reddit was killed by crypto.
Oh there’s a ton of interest but just kept to shitcoiners for now - the subreddits are nothing like they were during the bear market around 2019, back then it was a ghost town even with a subscriber count of 800k but now they’re still very active due to an influx of millions of users (6m subs on the main shitcoin sub).
It’ll all likely swing back up in the next two years and become a media and scam frenzy again, then another crash, rinse, repeat.
Reddit shilling decentralisation and ownership knowing how they’ve acted the last few months is hilarious though, they’ve been prideful of saying “nope you don’t own shit,now fuck off somewhere else” and spez bootlickers have been parroting it endlessly too. Seems odd that they’re the people Reddit are going to have to advertise this… Fauxnership to.
I’m not sure if I agree that crypto is going to swing back up, or at least not like it did in 2021. The subreddit may have more than 6 million users, but it doesn’t have any posts in the past week with more than 1000 upvotes. In reality, the crypto subreddit has a smaller userbase than Lemmy. That’s probably not entirely representative of the entire crypto community, but I think that it does indicate that a lot of people have lost interest.
I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how it all goes down though. Makes me glad I’m on Lemmy now.
It was much worse in 2019, a post hitting over 100-200 was unusual and the comment sections were beyond dead. Most comment sections these days are still filled with hope, in 2019 suicide hotline threads were a weekly occurrence or more.
We’ll see anyway, the BTC halving has led to a run 3 times in a row so far, just like clockwork. Barring another recession I just see the same pattern forming.
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