In the Netherlands we also see a return of mandated dutch classes because universeties cannot cope with the influx of students and have no legal way to stop students from other EU countries. So they will limit the influx by switching part of the curriculum back to Dutch. This seems similar.
Frankly, good. Montreal was already becoming remarkably English and that has risks of encouraging Quebec secessionism. Same thing should happen for the Mayan language in Yucatan, Mexico.
@quinten This thread has turned into a complete shit show about hate and discrimination against Québec and its francophone population. Can you please do something?
I speak both official languages fluently and I’m sad that a local first Nation language isn’t part of the curriculum starting in primary school.
It’s also pretty funny that you’re insisting on first Nations considering they are part of the few people that are guaranteed to be able to go to school in either French or English in Quebec.
Say this comment in a language spoken by a First Nation please.
Someone has problems listening and understanding in English. You should probably not attend university, nothing for you there. It might introduce you to new ideas.
It means that it has to do with ethnic superiority. It isn’t that they are worried about the uniqueness of Quebec vanishing it means they are worried about their specific group not running things.
Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the “it’s a foreign language” argument.
There’s no universities in a first Nation language and the official language in Quebec is French. I would be the first one to vote in favor of teaching kids a first Nation language, there’s 11 families of them in Quebec alone so a common language is necessary and in Quebec that’s French.
Members of first Nations are still free to go to school in whatever language they choose and the headline is just bad, at university level everyone can go wherever they want, it’s the English universities that will lose financing if they don’t get 80% of students from other provinces and out of country to reach level 5 French (out of 12 levels to be considered perfectly bilingual), that’s just enough French to be able to understand an everyday conversation.
Do you consider that all other provinces do language discrimination because people can’t go to university there without knowing English?
Something that people should keep in mind is that the fees were lower for those “out-of-province” students in Québec than in their own province.
This fee raise basically brings it on par with what they would pay in their on province. One of the reasoning behind this law is that Québec shouldn’t be subsidizing other provinces way too expensive university system.
If you are living in Québec, university fees are quite cheap, and this doesn’t change.
The French vs English aspect is widely talked about, but not a whole lot is mentioned about the actual price hike.
The most egregious example would be Bill 21. Absolutely horrendous legislation that does nothing but marginalize those who are already marginalized. Despite what the Quebecois would like you to believe, it’s a piece of proxy legislation that aims to exclude religious and ethnic minorities from Quebec society, plain as day.
Who’s concerned then? A minority of government jobs, plenty of opportunities for people who want to display a religious sign and worst case there’s the private sector if they truly don’t agree.
Is it any different from asking the people who have the exact same jobs from not displaying their political allegiance? Both religion and freedom of expression are protected by the Canadian Charter, don’t forget that.
So there’s an imaginary line in the sand that you’ve drawn regarding how many jobs are allowed to be denied to minorities? Ever heard of the slippery slope argument?
I thank you for the kind reminder of the existence of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I wonder if the Quebec legislators have ever read it. Have you? Maybe your rights are only protected when you’re off the clock eh?
Again, what about political signs? No one complains about that… Weird right?
Quebec made the decision 60 years ago to get religion out of its institutions, only the Catholic Church was concerned at the time but today is a different reality and the Révolution Tranquille is a big part of what makes Quebec what it is today. I don’t know why someone that’s religious to the point that they wouldn’t accept to separate their private religious life from their job would want to represent a laïc government just like I don’t understand why an atheist would want to go work for the government in a theocracy.
So your argument is basically that since someone’s rights aren’t respected at a workplace, they shouldn’t work there. Is this a mask off moment or are you starting to realize what the CAQ had intended with Bill 21 all along?
We put limits to people’s rights at work all the time and for multiple reasons, wearing a uniform being one of them.
If your religion is so important to you that you can’t make the difference between your willingness to display it and your professional obligations when you represent a laïc State and you’re in a position of authority (because that’s the only people affected by Bill 21), then maybe you should reconsider your willingness to work for said government in that position because clearly you’re not in the right place.
It’s also very funny that you’re basically saying it’s ok for a religion/community to force people to wear certain clothes but it’s not ok for the State to tell the same people not to wear them. If they were so free to do what they want then removing a religious sign for 8h a day shouldn’t be an issue, shouldn’t it?
Please point out which rights you’re being denied. I dare you. I promise you that there is not a SINGLE right that is infringed upon. A dress code is not protected in the Canadian constitution, however a religion that proscribes religious garb IS protected.
These people you are taking about were born in Canada, and expect to be protected by Canadian law. It’s not fair to them that they are now being told to whip into line for a white protectionist government or get out when they were literally exercising their Canadian rights. You can go and argue the rhetoric with the individuals that took those jobs, I really don’t care. But you cannot strip away the livelihood of an entire group of Canadians and then go, “Well, what did you expect?!” The rest of the world sees through that bullshit.
Firstly, this isn’t France. We have a charter of rights and freedoms that Quebec used a BS notwithstanding clause to get around so that they could pass the bill. Secondly, there’s practical and effective ways to curb the danger of religion without taking a) taking away people’s livelihoods b) making them choose between their faith and their job and c) forcing them to move out of the province to find a workplace that doesn’t go against Canadian ideals.
Oh the double standards. The religious minorities should be protected at all costs, but the québécois don’t deserve that same protection. It’s always the ““inclusivity/minority activists”” that are the most against Québec when Québec itself fits inside this very definition. For the common good, please just fuck off.
Absolutely not. When a person receives their Canadian citizenship they agree to uphold the values of the Canadian constitution and they are also afforded the rights that it lays out. Remind me, is the right to freedom of religion included in those documents?
Is the right to force a person to wear specific clothing in there too or is it just ok if it’s a religious group or a person’s family that choose their clothings?
Nothing at all. Please wear a t-shirt that says White Pride on it and put a bumper sticker on your car to that effect also whatever dating app you use make sure it is shown. You can also get a tat that says it on your neck or arm. Please please do this. You know after you scream at a woman wearing a hijab an incoherent scream in that obscure language called French.
See, a judge and a teacher wouldn’t be allowed to wear a pin that says “white pride” because in their professional life they represent a State that has specific values and their image must reflect that. One such value of that State is the separation of religion and State.
Because in our treaties and agreements they are quite literally sovereign nations that have the right to self determination. Unlike the Quebecois, they actually were here first, and they really are a minority at risk of extinction. It’s so strange how French Canadians can’t understand nuance.
That’s awesome, so now we’re just pulling random numbers out of the hat. 360m today, 8 billion tomorrow. By that logic, though, Anglo Canadians should have disappeared into American culture huh? Since we already speak the same language. Gee, I wonder why that’s never happened.
And just to be clear, the Quebecois are regarded as a nation, french is the official language, the feds are bilingual, and the Quebec govt conduct all operations in French, but somehow they’re also at risk of extinction is it?
Random numbers? Oh yeah, sorry… 5 millions French Canadians, 33.5m non French Canadians, 331.9 Americans… So yeah, you’re right, my numbers were wrong, 5m vs 367.4m… Oops, it didn’t go the way you expected did it?
You’re pretty blind if you don’t realise that Anglo Canadian culture is disappearing, Quebec produces more original content for its TV than the rest of Canada!
American culture is spreading so much that similar language protection laws are getting adopted in European countries now, same for protection against the spread of Russian in eastern Europe. You just don’t care because it doesn’t affect you, the proof being that I’m here and talking to you in English instead of forcing you to speak to me in french, which you should be able to do in our bilingual country.
There’s 7 million french and native French Canadians ffs. Random ass numbers lol. Nope it went where I wanted and the point still stands but it just flew over your head, like pretty much everything else in this thread.
Anglo Canadian culture is doing just fine despite our politicians not clutching their pearls and blaming immigrants.
You can’t even keep track of what your narrative is supposed to be. If Quebec produces more original TV than the rest of Canada, then it’s culture isn’t disappearing, is it? Write these things down if you have to, you’re starting to contradict yourself.
You’re speaking English because it’s an English sub lmfao. This is exactly the type of Quebecois entitlement that I’m talking about. You don’t see me going to french subs and making a point of not forcing them to speak English.
Crazy for you to be talking about entitlement when the first thing you would do when visiting a city in Québec would be to ask for service in English because YOU can’t speak the language of the place you are going to and WE have to make efforts to accomodate your lazyness but nooo we are the ones who are entitled
Am I wrong though? And I am not imagining stuff, I work with the public, and the number of English customers coming in that are not even bothered to say “bonjour, je ne parle pas français” is almost all of them.
No you see the only groups that get to use the government to hurt other groups is the groups I personally like.
Humans are “meant” to be multilingual. That is norm for us. I still remember the small shock I felt when we were visiting my wife’s homeland for the first time and it turns out there is a language with under 6 million people, spoken only in one small region, that she knew plus the most common language of her country.
So yeah this is a group being punished for speaking their own language on land that they originally owned, plus anyone who wants to study there and doesn’t speak French. This is freedom? This is a just society? This is education? Schools are supposed to teach not force monolithic thought and punish people for being born “wrong”.
Quebec’s nationalism involves alienating non-French speaking Canadians including its own residents (eg Montrealers), creating a narrative that Quebec’s culture is at risk of being wiped out, reinforcing a victim complex, blaming its own minorities while complaining about being a minority, and by enacting discriminory laws that only aim to exclude those who don’t fit their image of what a Quebecer should be.
The law states that English universities can take in whoever they want, 80% must finish their degree having reached conversational level in French otherwise English universities will lose part of their funding (when they’re the universities that are the richest in the province).
That’s not language discrimination, that’s just bad journalism.
Thank you for clarifying. English is the official language of Canada, right? I know provences support French, but is it also an official language?
For instance, in the U.S. there is no national language. Most government forms are provided in MANY languages and/or can be requested in them.
I’m not sure in the US a university could require language profiency in a specific language. To be fair, though, I haven’t researched it. Maybe somebody can clarify if there are any federally funded ones that do?
If Canadian universities require conversational French for 80% of grads but the only official language is English, then I wonder what the legal basis is for the requirement? If both English and Fench are official national languages, I understand how that would be the basis.
Could a province have a first people’s, or other language as their official, if they wanted? Or is the option just the two national official languages?
The total fees for out of province students will still be lower than for out of province students in other provinces.
The fees for international students will still be lower than the fees for international students in other provinces.
In the only province where French is the only official language, French universities received less financing than English universities no matter the source, including from the provincial government. Donating to one’s Alma Mater isn’t part of the French Canadian culture for a ton of historical reasons, that leads to an university like McGill getting 200m$ from a single ex student and having over a billion sleeping in its coffers while the Université du Québec en Outaouais barely manages to offer basic services to its students.
Is it such a bad thing that the government asks that foreign students integrate themselves by learning the local language? That’s an incentive for them to stay and it prevents the issue of having some of them stay without being able to speak the language, pretty much forcing them to live in one of three urban areas and their suburbs (Montreal, Gatineau, Sherbrooke).
That’s just a taste of how badly Quebec’s nationalists try to create a rift. But they’ll be the first to turn around and tell you that Anglos are the problem.
Cambridge dictionary definition of foreign: belonging or connected to a country that is not your own.
They are foreign though, literally. They are from a different province, plus a very different culture. There isn’t much that separates someone from Alberta from someone from Montana or Massachussetts in that case, other than a passport.
I mean you can Google the word “foreign” and the first thing that shows up is:
of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one’s own.
of or belonging to another district or area.
And Wiktionary gives:
Located outside a country or place, especially one’s own.
Originating from, characteristic of, belonging to, or being a citizen of a country or place other than the one under discussion.
Most Québécois are primarily francophones, while the rest of Canada are anglophones, it checks that box. And obviously Québec is a different district/area than not Québec. And someome from outside of Québec is of course from a different place, both being a different province and a completely different sometimes almost unrecognizable culture.
Idk man seems pretty reasonable to call them “foreign” seeing as how they’re from a different province. Plus “foreign” is a good catch-all word for anyone who isn’t from the jurisdiction.
Also yes if you go into another state you are foreign to that state. Not foreign country-wise, but foreign state-wise.
See there’s this thing we call “a definition” and that word is appropriate to the situation and if you think “foreigner” is pejorative then you’re the one who’s got an issue…
Yup. Quebec is so paranoid that if they don’t force people to speak French with laws and regulations then the language will die out. But French is a globally recognized language spoken in dozens of countries and the UN. Quebec is literally the only French speaking area that says they need to enforce it or it’ll die out.
My opinion? It’s a more acceptable form of xenophobia. They’re not worried people will stop speaking French. They’re worried about immigration and use language laws as a way to make moving to Quebec seem unappealing.
Oh… So lemmy is also a good place for Québec bashing… Awesome. I don’t think this latest move to attempt to slow the degradation of the French language in Quebec was very wise, but you just couldn’t resist pouncing on the occasion to attack big evil Quebec. Very civilized. 👌
When all the online interactions you see concerning your culture are people who barely have any knowledge of it taking a shit on it, you tend to not have the patience to be the bigger person.
France has a whole host of laws to keep France French as well.
Quebec and Montreal are wonderful because they’re so different and yet so close.
It’s hard for me to hold a grudge against them for that. It’s not like they’re saying you must speak French to go to school there - they’re just saying you have to try to learn French if you want to go to school there.
This government (CAQ) has done many xenophobic thing. Restricting access to services in foreign languages to accommodate new immigrants is probably the best example of that. But this university thing, I don’t think it is. Most of the time, if you go and follow and Bachelor’s degree in another country, then you have to learn the language of that country because not every class is given in English only (of course there’s exceptions, but most of the time it’s like that). And you have to pay a hefty premium to go and educate yourself abroad.
This situation is way different, studying at university of Toronto is 16 000$ if you are from Ontario and 17 000$ if you are from another province. So it was often cheaper for people to go and study in Québec. This fee raise doesn’t have anything to do with xenophobia or anything, this is merely bring the prices to the “market value”. Yes there’s a bit of language protectionism, but it’s not all that inconvenient, and as someone already said, just trying to learn French is probably sufficient to get around it.
In short, I agree that there is xenophobic things that happens in Québec. I agree this provincial government doesn’t have a great track record on that front. But this change isn’t motivated by xenophobia, but other reasons. Up to you to decide if they’re valid or not in your opinion.
Speaking of xenophobia, you should look in the mirror.
Quebec trying to protect its francophone cultural heritage in a whole anglophone continent with so much American cultural influences through media, music and the internet is not xenophobic. It’s actually even a problem that other countries outside North America are facing.
In really sick and tired of the discrimination of Quebec and French Canadians coming from people like you who twist everything to fit their racist narrative.
The only reason you’re so mad is that you can’t come live a life here speaking the only language you know, English, and it pisses you off that you have to learn a second language. You simply wish the the French Canadians would finally just all fold over, speak English and the whole French Canadian culture to disappear so it could stop be an inconvenience to you. I think THAT’S pretty xenophobic, actually.
There is very little French spoken in New Orleans. There’s more creole, but is absolutely not used virtually anywhere as a part of daily life.
I haven’t been to Baton Rouge, but a quick googling suggests the same. It is not an official language and not part of daily life. It is heritage more than practice.
There is very little French spoken in Louisiana. There’s more creole, but it’s still single digit percentages. It is not common and their curriculums are certainly not in French.
The entire towns website for Berlin, NH is in English: www.berlinnh.gov. There’s not even a French translation.
I think you are severely overestimating the prevalence of French as an official language in North America - and even as a lingua Franca.
A chunk of New-Brunswick, a chunk of Eastern Ontario and a chunk of Northern Ontario, that’s pretty much it. There’s a couple of French communities left in Manitoba (when they were a big part of the province’s population until 100 years ago or so)…
Thank you for editing your response after figuring out from my other response that only saying “that is factually wrong” wasn’t good enough.
There’s so much I would want to say about your answer and why is all irrelevant that I could write a book.
You know, I was hoping I could find more civilized discussions here than on Reddit. But as soon as Quebec is mentioned absolutely anywhere on the internet, Canadians will come out in droves to talk shit about them all over the place. We are constantly facing this kind of narrative everywhere we look and it’s god damn tiring. It’s nothing short of discrimination and racism towards our people.
It’s funny that whole communities get banned for acting the same way about people of other nations, but being racist towards Quebecois always gets a free pass…
Je suis bilingue. Ma mère est francophone et je vis à Gatineau depuis 7 ans. Il n’y a que les francophone du Québec qui s’énervent quand je dis “bonjour hi”.
Pour revenir à ton commentaire, Peut-être qu’il y en a quelques uns qui vont s’énerver, mais certainement pas autant qu’il y a des anglophones ailleurs au Canada qui grimpent dans les rideaux dès qu’on mentionne le fait français au Canada et au Québec. Ce fil de discussion en est un très bel exemple.
I’ve only ever really been to Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and Canadian Niagara Falls. Montreal is fun and different, Toronto is like a baby NYC, Vancouver was cool but just ok. I’d go back to Montreal before I went back to any of the other places. Except in winter.
I don’t want to live in Montreal but that’s because I don’t like cities in general so whenever I go to Montreal I try to make it quick… Well, I take the time to eat at one of the tons of awesome restaurants 🤤
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