If you got upset at me for pointing out that more people died of Covid under Biden than Trump, in large part because Biden rolled back common sense restrictions that were in place under Trump...
Then you'll hate me pointing out that Trump introduced a 25% tariff on Chinese EVs, and Biden is upping that to 100% tariff.
The US hasn't even tried to make an ultra affordable EV. Not even an attempt!
Instead, we make Cybertrucks that no one wants, and then work the refs to kneecap better, smarter companies, to try and prevent anyone else from being successful at doing it.
Every day, I hear people prattle on about how the US Venture Capital industry is so innovative and forward-looking. Yet of all the billions spent (wasted), none of them were smart enough to fund a company making ultra low cost EVs.
@mekkaokereke The Chevy Bolt probably came the closest, then Chevy killed it (though it’s supposed to be making a comeback in a year or two). I love my first generation one (before the 2022 redesign).
@pmonks@mekkaokereke I think later this year ya. I believe they are upgrading the battery and charging system. With the tax credit and a state credit ours was 20k, which was as cheap as we could get for an EV.
@jerf@mekkaokereke Yeah they’re rebuilding in on their “Ultium” platform. I’m nervous that they’re going to wreck it by trying to make it big. What I love about it is how small it is - it’s a fantastic city/commuter car.
@pmonks@mekkaokereke I've got a Bolt EUV and I love it. I highly recommend it. I'd buy another. Key point here is ice cars have been in production for over 100 years. It's going to take another 20 to really get electric humming along. Good engineering takes time.
@DeweyOxberger@mekkaokereke Yes!! And the good news is that we already know how to build most of a high quality, safe car cheaply - it’s only the drivetrain in a BEV that’s novel and has yet to realise all of the economies of scale etc. I’m bullish!!
@pmonks@mekkaokereke Totally. The thing I'm excited for is the realization that any BEV with DC fast charge is actually a "mobile grid battery". The only lego blocks left to invent are a standard protocol for grid managers to direct EVs to pull or push power for the grid, and the standardized market place for the exchange of that power. Your car becomes an energy broker, an agent working on your behalf, to buy low and sell high the grid energy. This does mean we DC bi-directional charging everywhere. All that tech already exists, just needs to be deployed.
Ultra low cost EVs will be the vast majority of all cars sold in the world by 2060. Look at how big the global auto industry is! That's a huge opportunity! And almost every US VC passed on it! 🤡
Warren Buffett was smart enough to see where this was all headed, and invested heavily in BYD back in the day. But Berkshire Hathaway is more of a private equity / diversified holding company, than a VC.
@KevinMarks@mekkaokereke The sudden popularity of cargo e-bikes in my neighborhood (lots of families with young kids) has been surprising. We got one for fun and exercise, but now we can hardly convince the kids to get in the car for anything. They want to ride on back of the e-bike.
That’s okay though. I did the math. Mile for mile, e-bike is cheaper by far.
This is part of what those "pinko commie socialists" like AOC were asking for in the Green New Deal. Specifically:
"including through investment in – (i) zero-emission vehicle infrastructure and manufacturing;"
That's how China did it. They gave car manufacturers incentives to create super cheap EVs.
AOC said "Hey US auto industry, let me give you billionaires even more money please? To develop the cars the world needs?" And they said, "No deal! Gas trucks forever! Get stuffed!"🤷🏿♂️
@hittitezombie@cshlan@mekkaokereke And the massive use of public space for private vehicles compared to what's available for bicyclists and pedestrians. And large public spending to build & maintain road networks vs public transit/cycling/walking.
All countries have roads for private vehicles, but the US imbalance vs other options is pretty striking. It's difficult to live in many US towns without a car, and those are deliberate policy choices.
@smach@hittitezombie@cshlan@mekkaokereke
Don't forget that the US is much larger than most European countries, so things that work there would need to be much larger (and more expensive).
@mekkaokereke I don't know where you are getting the 2060 from. The market is tipping now, pure electric is already outselling combustion in some countries. By 2030 electric will be the default option for most of the world's car-buyers.
@mekkaokereke VCs invest in stupid dumb things like "walk my dog...with AI! dot com". things that can be slapped together as software or simplistic hardware in a few months. they don't want to deal with complex dependencies and development, manufacturing infrastructure, huge liabilities, safety recalls, the list goes on and on. That's why the US is mostly just waiting on GM / Ford / etc. to make electrics. it's just that charging infrastructure is a rolling dumpster fire perpetuated by Musk
@mekkaokereke this guy, first he literally gets everyone to agree to abandon CCS in favor of his connectors, then he goes and fires the whole team doing charging infrastructure. what a dick
Why? Because Americans are by and large offered the most expensive EVs.
Those of us with more modest means get priced out, and the more affordable EVs aren't allowed into the US.
@CelloMomOnCars@mekkaokereke
Sales prices of new cars are not a good explanation for why EV market share is so low in America, because Americans are buying expensive ICE vehicles.
The economics are even less of an excuse in terms of the all-in cost, including fuel and maintenance.
Unfortunately Americans are carbrains incapable of acknowledging any of the harms of their lifestyle choices, especially the rich ones who are buying new vehicles.
Most Americans aren't rich. Most Americans could not afford a Cybertruck or Model S, even if they wanted one.
Consider a 22 year old woman that needs to buy a car to work. She only has a budget of $15K to buy a car. She's scared of used cars, because she's lost a job before when her car needed expensive repairs that she couldn't afford. Which car should she buy?
In Australia or Brazil, she could buy a new EV. In the US, she can't.
@InkySchwartz@mekkaokereke@WeeDramAtic@CelloMomOnCars E-bikes are still a reliability risk, depending. A fair number of people, if they get a flat, aren't able to fix it themselves. US Bike shops, still catering mostly to the US recreational crowd, have crap turnaround. I've got money, space & skills, my answer to this problem is a "winter bike" & a "summer bike" & because I deserve it, a "fun bike" that works perfectly well as a commute. Also, no e-assist, because I don't need it (yet).
(Disclosure: I have a summer bike, a winter bike, a shopping bike, a touring bike, a romancing CelloDad bike.
It's one and the same bike.)
All I need is real - real safe - bike infrastructure.
@CelloMomOnCars Amen! Six friends, all in their 60s, never cyclists since they were not-yet-teens, are now doing multiple bike holidays each year as a group and even entering cycling events. Plus a lot of weekend cafe rides. All because of ebikes. Transformational!
@jbenjamint@CelloMomOnCars it-would-be-nice, if road safety permits, if they started running short-distance errands on those bikes. I do relatively little recreational cycling; my several bikes are all set up to be nice to ride running errands, so that's what I do. My best guess is it displaces around 100 gallons of gasoline, or about a ton of CO2 (round numbers). The cost of the not-gasoline is a little more than I spend on bike maintenance, maybe.
That's me also: errands and romancing, as I'm not the athletic type. I only go to the next town if there's a good meal to be had over there.
But we do it down to 10F and up to 95F.
(I was on a bike at 0F once, that was nippy).
Car dealers have addressed this with "loaner cars". I wonder if bike shops could do the same with bikes?
I think the most versatile "fit anyone" bike designs are the rental "city bike", and the folding bike, which both only come in one size. Personally, I'd rather ride a $230 Zizzo Ferro (and it can go in the trunk of a taxi).
@NewNordicNormal@InkySchwartz@mekkaokereke@WeeDramAtic@CelloMomOnCars This is why I do winter/summer bikes, and favor longtails -- they're large enough for almost all errands, and I can tow a bike with a bike, so that's how I handle the shop. I think for the bucketbike case, and the e-bike case (where the bike might not be rollable), a flat trailer works, if you have another bike (it can be a small bike) to tow the trailer. A trailer feels like huge overkill, but it's far cheaper than a car.
Many public transit buses now have bike racks on the front: that's how I get to the faraway bike shop.
(Try it: it's awesome. Also gets you to faraway parks, other cities, etc. Bus drivers are super nice and help me lift my e-bike up).
For simple repairs that I can't handle myself I call my itinerant bike repair guy: he comes and does the job at my house. I found him after my favourite bike teenagers have gone to college 🙂
I think having a captive audience in a Drive Or Die society helps you sell cars period. And I suppose you could in that case get away with leaving the smallest cars out of your lineup, because people must buy a car anyway.
But American lawmakers have been complicit in that outcome for decades.
David Zipper: "The reckless policies that helped fill our streets with ridiculously large cars"
@CelloMomOnCars@mekkaokereke@WeeDramAtic there are multiple factors for sure including the light truck BS. However, you couldn't get away with larger more expensive lineups if there was the real possibility of low end disruption.
@mekkaokereke I’m really interested in the Chevy Bolt (pre-2024, while it still had CarPlay/Android Auto) but having trouble selling a “small” car with the family, so the Mach-E and Ioniq 5 are higher on the list
@mekkaokereke a super low cost no frills electric car would probably do way better in sales. But then they wouldn't be status symbols. I mean we don't want poor people being able to buy an electric car. How would we prove our superiority to them?
@mekkaokereke I guess it’s unpatriotic, but I would like to be able to buy a safe vehicle that I can afford that does not destroy the climate I require to live comfortably, and I also don’t want an escalating trade war with unclear costs to the people I care about.
@ksawatsky@mekkaokereke the Kia Rio starts at $16,750. Not that 3 under 20K is great, but still. You can also get a Chevy track right at $20K. I really wish Honda would bring back the Fit.
@mekkaokereke VCs funded Juicero, which was going to be "the nesspresso of juice", until it was found out that one could squish the juice bags with bare hands without requiring a $200 smart machine with DRM and a monthly subscription. It is my impression that it's been more than 15 years that the VC people have lost all touch with reality.
@mekkaokereke This has been a recent source of frustration to me. I'm looking at replacing my old SUV with an EV, and would specifically like something small and low cost because it's almost exclusively going to be used for me to commute and run errands. (We have a van if we're going somewhere as a family.)
So why is it that most of the EVs on the market are SUV-shaped, and none are particularly low cost? Where's the EV equivalent of a Ford Focus? I don't want a status symbol.
@wa7iut@kinsale42@mekkaokereke I'm a rather large fellow, so I'm skeptical that I could comfortably fit in that. But looks can be deceiving, maybe it's bigger on the inside? 😁
A combination of poorly-designed regulation (CAFE) and an arms race to have the tallest, heaviest vehicles (so people feel safe driving around other huge vehicles) has fucked our roads.
That, and, I'm sure the profit margins are much meatier on luxury vehicles than on economy cars. Not to mention that increasing inequality means most people who used to be in the market for a new economy model are now buying used.
@tojiro@mekkaokereke the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are both low cost. The bolt is the smaller of the two, but the Leaf is more sedan or compact in description. I have driven both, and while I liked the Bolt a lot (previous car before final EV purchase was a Chevy Spark), the Leaf was more comfortable to me. The Bolt has a slightly larger battery and usually sells cheaper, but both cars are slated for hold/discontinue this year.
@tojiro@mekkaokereke A further point about the hold/discontinue on both cars: Bolt as far I know is being Dc-ed. The Leaf is being put on hold for minimum 2 years while Nissan works up a new Leaf that will be slightly larger but not Nissan Ariya sized, projected year 2026. They also are working on a smaller EV that will use a newer and better dry-cell battery that will be Nissan standard moving forward. The plant was just built and opened this year.
@tojiro@mekkaokereke We’re looking at the #Rivian R2, coming out in late 2025 when our current (tesla) lease is up. And the Rivian R3x looks fantastic, but there’s no build date yet…
@tojiro@mekkaokereke because EVs are still a status symbol. If you don’t live in an area with a LOT of public charging, or you have to use on-street parking, the usability of an EV drops a lot, especially the low range ones which would be cheaper, but require more charging.
@trochee@tojiro@mekkaokereke The 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EV is actually a foot shorter in length, which surprised me. It is the same width, and 2 inches taller. It also has double the range!
GM was going to kill the Bolt line, but they actually reconsidered [1], I presume because they were selling well 😅
It looks like you can find them used for about 15-20k for models from 2021-2023.
@trochee@tojiro@mekkaokereke I think the Bolt is about it. As others have noted, the many foreign-built EVs that would fit your needs have been effectively made unavailable in the US.
@mekkaokereke In practical terms, you can buy a used Nissan Leaf for little money, and even the limited mileage will be plenty for most people’s conmutes. There are other EVs available in the used market and you get to recycle the expensive components that many complain about.
@mekkaokereke Genuine question, I don't know much about this industry. Are chinese EVs cheap becauce the Chinese know how to make them cheap, or are they cheap because of government subsidies, exploiting child labor etc?
@mekkaokereke I saw a Cybertruck in person a few weeks ago. From the exterior- one of the most poorly manufactured vehicles I have ever seen in my life. Nothing in its form aligns, clear gaps between sides and the hood. I’ve seen 1990 Suzukis with better quality.
I hope Biden gives an ultimatum - “you have 3 years to catch up, then I can’t stop bringing EVs to the masses.”
@mekkaokereke Those Chinese cars are extremely subsidized and very low quality. People with access to both "Western" and Chinese cars are favoring the western cars, despite being more expensive because the Chinese ones just plain aren't very good. Hopefully they'll get better with time, like a lot of Chinese products have, but their auto industry is still ridiculously subsided. Like, those cars cost roughly the same to make as any other car, and they're losing money selling them.
If what you said were true, then they wouldn't be so afraid of letting those cars into the market. Because people would just choose the Western cars. Free market and all that.
But what you said is not true.
And we know that, because we see what happens in markets where both Chinese and Western EVs are available for sale. People at the entry level choose the Chinese cars.
And the BYD Dolphin has a higher EU safety rating than the BMW 5 series.
And Teslas are subsidized too, just not as much as the Chinese EVs. And no one's EV industry is subsidized as much as the US auto+fossil fuel industry. No one's. And it's not particularly close.
Hey, their government is making better, more future proof, more climate friendly decisions than ours. How is that their fault? No one is stopping us from also subsidizing EV manufacturers and car buyers. That's on us.
@mekkaokereke I've heard conflicting anecdotes about the quality of these cars, but regardless, I hope they catch up.
Independent of "fair" government incentives, I generally think cars should be more expensive, not less. Cars are still one of the worst forms of transportation from an environmental point of view. We shouldn't be subsiding any of them, we should be taxing the shit out of gas vehicles. Making our own cars cheaper is the wrong environmental play.
I agree on the "more bikes and trains, fewer cars, safer, more walkable cities, shorter commutes," point. The only question is how to get there. I don't think tariffs on cheaper EVs is part of the solution.
This is part of the tragedy of the endless campaign that we have now in the US. Criticism of the current president isn’t an endorsement of the opposition in a campaign for an election. It is criticism of the current president - a reaction to policy. The campaign shouldn’t even come up at this point in the year.
The US media’s obsession with covering government like a sport rather than informing citizens about policies and their consequences has paralyzed the political discourse.
I guarantee you that at least one person will respond to this thread with a "Trump is worse!" That person will probably be white, with low / zero Black people in their followers or following.
There's a small chance that the person will respond with anger: they might also swear at me / insult me, and include palpable glee at some implied physical violence to my person if Trump wins. Eg, "Have fun returning to slavery under Trump!"
@mekkaokereke Not upset at you, but I'm thinking of all the union jobs in US/Canada that will disappear if the tariff on Chinese EV imports is lifted. It's a tough decision.
We were perfectly fine to replace union Internal Combustion Engine jobs with non-union EV jobs when the EV company was owned by Elon. We were content to let dealerships go bankrupt as we move to a "direct to consumer" EV sales model, and to move union Detroit jobs to non-union South Carolina jobs.
But again, we need to decide once and for all if we care more about the economy or the environment.
Because the decisions we're making sound exactly like the decisions that we used to get mad at Exxon, and Mancin for. 🤷🏿♂️
And doubly ironic, the "must save the economy!" pro-gas decisions don't even save the economy, as we're seeing from how afraid everyone is of the BYD Dolphin. And every time there's a big weather event, don't we say "We can't afford not to fight climate change?"
If the US industry is allowed to pay Chinese wages, have Chinese government subsidies, and Chinese environmental and labour regulations, they could also produce EVs at Chinese prices.
The Europeans are currently looking into tariffs on Chinese imports under their anti-dumping laws.
The US has ridiculous things like "medical bankruptcy," "working homeless," and "school lunch debt." If you lined up all of the world's people by net worth, with Elon and Bezos at the front of the line, and the least wealthy people at the back of the line, the only country with more people at the tail of the line than the US, would be India (farmer's debt).
Most Chinese workers couldn't understand how you could be $300K in debt without a gambling problem.
The US subsidizes our car industry more than anyone else by far. We just choose to subsidize fossil fuels, big trucks, and car culture. We can't get mad at China for being smarter about what they choose to subsidize (EVs and public transportation). We could do this too! AOC tried to get us to do it as part of the Green New Deal. We compromised, and got a weak half effort as part of Biden's infrastructure bill. It's not enough for us to compete.
On tariffs, we need to decide what's really important:
a) Getting off of fossil fuels
Or
b) Getting off of fossil fuels, but only if US billionaires win! 🤑
Choosing "B" means delaying getting off of fossil fuels. Rather than tariffs, we should be doubling down on our post carbon transportation investments and incentives.
@mekkaokereke
It's not a question of being smarter. It's a difference in history.
The US has a legacy transportation system that needs to be reformed.
China has only had widespread private car ownership relatively recently. Public transportation was more entrenched because of this.
Having said that, Chinese passenger rail, especially high speed rail has been losing money as operating costs remain high, and usage on many routes has been overestimated. It's only a matter of time before some of these lines end up dropped.
I was almost going to disagree with you, but your last paragraph includes the part that I agree with! 🙂
With developing public transportation, legacy infra has nothing to do with the difference between China and the US. Most of China's rail infra was built in the past 20 years. They've added more miles of commuter rail, than the US has total.
In terms of underutilization, one way to look at that, is that they've invested in the infra, and hope to grow into their shoes.
I wish that California had a completed rail system between San Diego, LA, San Francisco, Sacramento, and Las Vegas*, that was clean, safe, and fast, but was "suffering" from low ridership. I wish that each city also had a London underground or Tokyo subway quality subway system, that had the same problems.
(* Yes I listed Las Vegas as California. Don't ask me to explain! 🙂 No, I didn't "forget" Fresno or Barstow! Build a tunnel and let us zoom past and skip them entirely.)
non-existent labor protections, & no real labor unions in Chinese factories = cheap workforce.
worst sourcing standards for raw materials = using cheap minerals from regions with #humanrights & #environmental abuses (see recent Lead The Charge rankings)
@mekkaokereke There's plenty of criticism (& I've done it) of the US and our terrible history, racial injustices, and anti-#labor laws. But I fail to understand how ignoring genocide in China, or downplaying crimes against #Uyghurs and #Tibetans, helps?
Tesla, btw, is an ideal partner for #China, in many ways (just as Twitter is becoming a venue for Chinese misinformation). #Tesla & Chinese carmakers are the worst when it comes to sourcing & labor
People often talk about "historical" injustices and genocide in the US. It's not history. It's now.
When you look at this chart showing that the most common age of Black folk is 27 and the most common age for white folk is 58, know that the Black birth rate is higher than the white birthrate. What do you think happens to all those Black people? Not historically. I'm talking about today, in 2024? That's 10s of millions of people.
People genuinely expect Black people to look past their own mistreatment, to help them criticize China.
You frame my pointing out that the US treats Black people worse than Uyghurs on every dimension ( number directly executed in the streets by the state, number in slave labor camps, life expectancy, poverty rate, infant mortality rates, etc), as "downplaying?"
Until we can call out #humanrights violations anywhere, I think we'll continue to fail to address either #climate or historical injustices. Giving one country a pass because they produce more #EVs or have more solar panels is merely kicking the can down the road.
@mekkaokereke What China has that the US doesn’t is actual Industrial Policies and huge government investment in companies that didn’t make Cars before but could make high tech equipment. Also they have an industrial base built up when our financial overlords sent everything overseas and destroyed the US manufacturing base. We have decades of catchup and the opportunity to leap frog China if we actually took appropriate action.
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