I guess. That is the whole point right? If you like how a instance is run, you join them. And if any beehaw users don't like this direction it's taking, they can always make another account on Lemmy.
Fediverse allows for great potential of redundant, diverse, and flexible meta content consumption, but we the users are bearing some of that growing pain right now as this all grows and things get shuffled on the fly.
really? that's kinda yikes lol. like I can post on beehaw just fine from kbin, so I'm not quite sure that's the case? I think they just want to be able to moderate strictly and they've only got like 4 mods over there.
Perhaps harsh but beehaw strikes me as the tumblr/progressive/sjw types that really wanna build their safe space. Which makes me wonder why they're federating at all lol.
I'm very glad that kbin seems to have a "let's get all the content and speak freely" sorta vibe going on right now. hopefully things stay that way.
I'm fairly new to kbin but we do have mod tools here, and people have used them to moderate their community. So far I haven't seen any issues with spam or what I'd say is trolling (though beehaw may think different). As for whether the mod tools are "good" I guess is one's opinion. I find they're enough to moderate the small communities I started here on kbin, though I have to imagine much larger (100k-1m) communities might struggle with the tools available. kbin is very new and still under development. so we'll see.
Yeah. I would also imagine that a place like Beehaw is going to attract bad actors and trolls who want to wreck the place at the expense of Beehaw users, who specifically joined in order to have a community of nice people to hang out with.
the vibe here on kbin is I think very similar to what you might find on more serious subreddits or on something like hacker news. we're interested in content, discussion, etc. but there's not really overt trolling. I rarely see "shitposting" and other stuff as well. If you think "nerds who wanna talk about stuff and share news/content" you've got the right gist. I don't really think anyone I've seen here would go out of there way to cause problems. but kbin does have open signups (not invite).
idk what the mindset is for lemmy, beehaw, and the rest of the fediverse, but I think due to the long downtime for federation here on kbin there's this vibe of "we have kbin stuff, and then we have stuff from those other guys" It's to the point where someone quickly made a script to be able to easily see where someone is posting from.
In that regard, it's always very obvious to me when I'm among beehaw users and in beehaw communities. same for when I'm in lemmy spaces, or kbin spaces. whereas I think lemmy users may not know or care about that distinction. Though this might just be my own musing and others aren't thinking like that haha.
beehaw stands out among the lemmy instances because of the unique culture.
so idk how things work over on the lemmy instances and beehaw, but here when we get threads from other sites, the logo of the site is shown pretty blatantly. likewise the url is clearly visible. In beehaw's case, just looking around there it seems pretty strictly moderated with a certain cultural/style emphasis. Maybe not obvious at first glance, but reading some of the ethos pages makes it clear.
It's a very... "tumblr" vibe. So beehaw defederating from lemmy.world isn't really a surprise.
Like to me the different instances have different "feels" to them. and on kbin they're clearly marked so it's obvious. it's further emphasized as i said by the fact that we were isolated for a while.
The advantage Beehaw has is the way the communities are organized - so much neater than in other instances. Every community on there is a giant hub, making these communities more visible and active than what we see on lemmy.ml and lemmy.world, and to some extent kbin.
I wasn't here before kbin's federation went down, but rather joined during that time with most everyone else. I do think the tone and "feel" between kbin and lemmy is similar for sure, and I think a lot of that is probably due to mutual ex-reddit culture. but while federation was down there was a lot of kbin users saying things like "it's a bit better like this because we build up a kbin culture, and understand things better" and "we can build up kbin communities so we're less reliant on other instances".
I think lemmy just ended up with the "everything reddit" culture, while kbin ended up with a more reserved technical reddit culture. Though that might just be my perspective (and not shared with others). But I can understand why beehaw defederated with lemmy and not kbin. even though it kinda feels like we're next lol.
I feel like KBin is one of those "we only show our magazines by default, but if you're an advanced user or you want to explore the fediverse a bit more, we have that option too, and you can even subscribe to federated communities/magazines" type of sites in the fediverse.
Perhaps harsh but beehaw strikes me as the tumblr/progressive/sjw types that really wanna build their safe space
They literally said they want that instance to be their safe-space, so you are absolutely correct.
Still it's surprising how quickly a block-happy instance appeared, I was expecting it but not only days into this reddit-wave.
I got the same sense. Authoritarianism runs on both sides of the political spectrum.
While their FAQ touted an emphasis on empathy, the heavy flowery language while also making a point to refuse to have written rules at all somehow gave me a feeling of double-speak. The idea is nice, but now you're open to being banned because they felt like it, and you can't even explain how you weren't breaking the rules if no rules exist. Refusing to allow anyone but themselves to create communities backs up the authoritarian streak. Not interested. I assume if they don't, I'll eventually be banned there anyway. I really like debate and I really dislike dictatorships.
At least if one of the largest instances out there goes full Korea, it will leave other instances a chance to be noticed in their wake. It sounds salty, but I'm still getting used to what federation means for a platform and when we were still initially federating my entire feed was utterly nothing but beehaw. I am salty. I want as much variety as I can get.
Yup. Taking a look at their ethos/manifesto stuff it instantly became clear to me what sort of place beehaw is, and it's not one I'm super fond of, so I doubt I'll ever make an account there.
Yeah beehaw is pretty big at least from my perspective. I see three big communities: lemmy, kbin, and beehaw. and beehaw is easily the odd one out with their weird manifesto stuff lol. Which is why when they said they were defederating from lemmy, it kinda struck me as "oh kbin is next then" lol. but each of the three kinda have a different vibe to me, so maybe kbin is tolerable to beehaw while lemmy isn't?
I haven't had much experience with lemmy at all, in order to guess, and I've seen conflicting things about them. Lemmy was already bigger and it feels like it got a lot more publicity than kbin, so they bore the brunt of the exodus. It's possible they didn't get as lucky as we did in who that constituted. The devs' weird CCP bent overshadowing some other instances' reportedly great admins just makes it even more of a confusing mess culture-wise.
I'd like to think we can abide by such stringent rules implications as "be nice." But their stated reasoning is that there's just too much content to ever hope to moderate by themselves, which.....they really should have seen coming on a platform whose intent is to federate, ngl. Doesn't matter if your homebase is young. You need underlings for this once it gets beyond a couple hundred people.
Which is why I'm leaning on the side of beehaw eventually deciding there's no choice but to defed way more than this until and unless they can afford help. With four admin-mods alone against the mercy of the entire fediverse, their hopes of upholding the mission statement will eventually be laughable any other way.
Not that I think we're nearly as bad as other places out there. I think we've got a surprisingly great atmosphere going and I hope to god it stays. But those are their two options, and kbin users seem to have an admirably civil tendency both to shitpost and to question and hear out differing viewpoints in a way I'm not sure beehaw will appreciate.
Yup. I completely agree. I understand why beehaw defederated from lemmy because lemmy kinda seems... unhinged, in comparison to beehaw's carefully crafted community.
Whereas kbin I think you're right, tend to be happy to civilly hear each other out. whereas I feel like beehaw isn't really interested in that. Though I think of kbin users respect beehaw's way of doing things while we're in their space, they might not have issues with us.
granted, the response I got was "we don't even think about you" so maybe kbin is too small to really be noticeable to them lol.
Unhinged. You've found the perfect word for it. They come off to me like what happens in study hall when the instructor has to leave.
granted, the response I got was "we don't even think about you" so maybe kbin is too small to really be noticeable to them lol.
Goodness, my pride, lmao. I think I'm quite content not to be such a giant enough instance I get thought of. Hundreds of comfier, smaller places over Reddit Deux any day. I agree, the people here seem on the whole cognizant enough to keep themselves in check, rather than...whatever reddit was. That would be one behavior I am thrilled to see die, and hopefully federating with more chaotic instances won't kick it up again. I'm concerned it may.
haha you've summed up my thoughts exactly. it's a little interesting seeing lemmy get the wilder side of reddit and kbin getting the more reserved side. whereas both are "similar" enough that I think we're fine with each other.
I turned that option on on the first day, and turned it back off after a few hours. The cloudflare verification affects this too, so after a while of scrolling it'll just hang forever trying to load the next page.
Just a reminder that nothing on the Fediverse is private. Because of the distributed nature, anyone with an instance can scrape everything you’ve ever posted and this is working as intended.
Direct messages are readable to whoever is hosting your instance and the instance of the person you send them to.
Be careful what you share on the Fediverse and be careful what you share when setting up an account
A correction/clarification for those people who are trying to find freedom of speech on Fediverse,
as Nate says, nothing on the Fediverse is private.
Because everything is transparent, and they all link to your personal email address.
Freedom of speech on Fediverse is still limted cuz it is not private, and still has moderator.
Most public platforms interacting with the Fediverse today does require you to register an email address out of practical considerations but this is not a requirement of the system in itself. It is possible to both post and read an unmoderated fediverse with enough effort.
If you don't like the moderation of your particular server, you are fully able to create your own or set up an existing solution yourself that gives you 100% control over what kind of content you post, and in turn which content you federate to your server. Of course, you can't control which servers decide to allow your content on their server, but any user of servers where your content is blocked can do the same and have access to your content again.
As far as privacy goes, you can rent servers and purchase domains with crypto currencies which are not traceable back to you where you can host your own service that interacts with the fediverse, making you 100% able to control the information you post into it.
Of course it can. They are simply 2 unrelated concepts. Expressing yourself on reddit was like going into public space, and yelling whatever you had in mind. Doing so on fediverse is the same, but with microphones picking up your yelling to propagate it around the world.
You can have Freedom to express yourself while respecting your privacy: just don’t yell it (i.e. chose a closed private invite only community) or go to som remote forest / desert where there is nobody to hear you yell. Join an invite-only group/room on signal or matrix.
Freedom and Privacy can only exist with common sense.
Basically Meta will try to join the fediverse build up a bunch of users and get content. Once they become the biggest instance they will build up a wall to kick all the competition out. It is what google did to XMPP. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html By signing the anti fedi pact we are esentially preventing a corporation from taking over and ruining it for everyone else.
They or their users don't want their posts reaching Meta's servers. Any site federating with Meta has the ability to boost content from other sites they're federated with to all others they federate with. So, if Site A is federated with Meta, and Site B is federated with Site A but not with Meta, posts from Site B can still reach Meta via Site A.
The solution to this is Authorized Fetch. It trades a little bit of efficiency (individual AP messages being re-shareable by intermediaries) for proper authorization (every server must fetch the messages directly from the source, with the correct authorization). Mastodon implements it behind an env variable, and implementations like GoToSocial force it. No idea how kbin or Lemmy work but they should look into it.
I don't get the XMPP thing. XMPP was an obscure protocol mostly used in non-federated applications (several MMOs use XMPP for in-game chat for example, obviously not federated). When Google and Facebook adopted XMPP and federated, the user base exploded, sure. Then they defederated, and XMPP went straight back to where it was before. There was no EEE - it was EA: Embrace, Abandon. Google and Facebook didn't extend or extinguish anything. If anything, Slack and Discord killed XMPP, not Google.
What also could happen is that a lot of Fediverse post could be collected, then used to build ad profiles. It's quite easy to deanonimize people, and even if the "same user handle" tactic fails, one can just use heavy monitoring to someone to say "X on A is Y on B". I got advertisement for Galaxy S23 Ultra cases just by talking about it.
@ZILtoid1991 this can happen today, everyone is scraping fediverse. But as others said we are not that many anyway. Threads got 10 million users in 7 hours
I think many people here are immensely overestimating the value of the Fediverse user base. The entire active Fediverse, let alone individual instances, is barely a rounding error for Meta.
There is no if or when Threads become the biggest instance, Threads apparently got 10 million users in 7 hours. The whole of Mastodon has ~9 million users in total. By now, Threads alone is likely bigger than the entire Fediverse combined, which mind you is something like >99% bots and inactive users.
Even if every single instance defederates from Meta, their fork of ActivityPub would by far be the most significant one by not a small margin.
Even if every single instance defederates from Meta, their fork of ActivityPub would by far be the most significant one by not a small margin.
And? Any other big name will never agree to import the fediverse fork of Meta. The war is open, all of the big names know about the EEE trick and none of them will fall for it and embrace their fork.
@wrath@kbin.social Defederate with any instance Meta has infected - including any instance at Mastodon who thinks this is a good idea. I left FB years ago because of this and their boosting of the alt-right
I think it all comes down to why does Meta do anything?Money. And, the timing of their supposed interest in the Fediverse is after the second notable exodus from a major social network. Meta sees more people & more engagement here which equates to more potential profits on their end.
I looked into Mastodon after the whole Twitter thing in November, but I didn't really use Twitter, so an alternative at the time didn't make sense for me. However, I was an avid Reddit user for the last nine years, so when these API changes came to light and my app (Sync) was going to cease to exist, well I took the Fediverse alternatives more seriously and realized that ActivityPub is awesome technology that is now invaluable to the internet.
And, the timing of their supposed interest in the Fediverse is after the second notable exodus from a major social network. Meta sees more people
Project 92 has been on the news since at least May 20, a couple of weeks before the Reddit drama, and it seems that they have been testing it with influencers for months.
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment about Facebook, but I think some of these takes fail to get the whole picture. Facebook isn't interested in us, Fediverse users and our communities. As you said, they only care about money. And the money today is in creating a competitor to Twitter. Mastodon happens to have an open-source Twitter clone, and Facebook can use it without spending much in coding. Also, the federation aspect allows advertisers to defederate from problematic communities, which is why they're leaving Twitter.
Meta sees more people & more engagement here which equates to more potential profits on their end.
According to the article that I linked, every Instagram account will carry to a Project 92 account. There are like 2 million Lemmy accounts, and a few millions more of Mastodon accounts. Instagram has billions, with b, of accounts. We are anecdotal in comparison with the engagement that the migrated Instagram users will create.
We are not Meta's target. We are the ones that will suffer their consequences.
I wonder what's going to kill the whole Fediverse tomorrow. Seems after like a week of vacation from Reddit all' the most excitable people can only agree on one thing: this place is very, very doomed unless it changes everything right now.
Maybe if every instance just redirects to Reddit (or some kind of front-end so it looks like it has a different name but all of the same people, problems, etc.) then people will be happy.
...Yes I'm getting grumpy at all' the complaining before anyone's had a chance to deal with or figure out anything, let alone sort out proper solutions and start patching things. Please, try to have some patience.
Upvoted for the convo, but disagree on the sentiment.
If I followed 10 different subreddits on technology, I'd imagine I'd be getting a lot of the same content. I know that reddit as a whole was a shitshow when things went pear-shaped for Twitter and the early days of Elon Musk for example.
I think that eventually, we will reach a level of content creation where people either don't feel the need to cross post, or that you don't need to subscribe to 10 closely-related magazines.
I think that eventually, we will reach a level of content creation where people either don't feel the need to cross post, or that you don't need to subscribe to 10 closely-related magazines.
I hope so, but there seem to be a significant amount of people who think that every instance should be their own community. I don’t quite understand what they even want federation for then, but they are very outspoken.
There has been no lack of outspokenness from people who want monolithic mega-groups or post deduplication. The topic gets posts with full discussions daily at this point, and people have been spilling over the fence from the other side for days on end to immediately complain that they're seeing groups with the same name, and expressing worry that they'll miss something interesting because they're used to reading 10 posts from popular subreddit and assuming that's all of value that was said on the topic that day.
You just don't see them as outspoken because you agree with them.
I wonder if it would be worth it to have an option to combine content of communities with the same name from different federations into one feed automatically.
Part of those options could be to exclude a community from a certain federation from that feed if their content in that community does not match the others (r/superbowl for instance, where the name does not match the expected content)
I might be wrong about this, but KBin supports “tags” which can be set at a Magazine level by the mods. This will lump content related to this tags into the Magazine. It won’t be in the feed directly, but will be listed as related content.
You're absolutely right, everything's so civil here that the moment someone is remotely hostile to anyone it stands out like a sore thumb. Reddit was hell in some places in this regard, one word against the general consensus and everyone piles on you like you're a terrorist.
And that's without mentioning people who are there clearly just to stir up arguments, I don't know how so many people don't realize this. The "old" saying "don't feed the troll" has been forgotten by a big portion of the internauts.
I saw that the dev for kbin had to enable DDoS protection (presumably because there is so much new traffic) which is most likely the reason for being unable to see new posts from other instances. This should all be fixed but it may take some time to scale properly.
They enabled it, it was broken and the implementation sucked, so they removed it again. But hey if you are pissed about it, feel free to help - you can fork the GitHub project and then fix it yourself :)
Also remember everyone working on it is volunteering. Cut them some slack, all of them have normal jobs as well.
I host a bunch of websites for normal small businesses many of them have contact forms and all of them have captcha.
We've seen a steady rise in spam that gets through it over the last year or so. I don't have any concrete numbers at hand, but we've heard from customers that they used to get a few spam replies once in a while before but get 10-20 a day over prolonged periods of time now.
I wouldn't be surprised if we're aproaching a point where computers are better at solving captchas than human.
Which is funny because these captchas are designed to train an AI, like self-driving cars. So the AI is now training itself, ready for a big divergence.
The main reason to do captchas nowadays is to keep the door closed. Of course they do not deter more expert-ish people, but opportunity "hackers" aka script kiddies. If you're not using captchas you're just inviting them to run a script on your site. Big sites use captchas, there's no reason for the fediverse to not use captchas. We don't need to be "special" in regards to security.
That's why I always liked the captcha that Genshin had on login, just sliding the puzzle piece onto the correct part of the picture. Very easy for a human, has the basest of security against lazy bots.
If you really want to see this, go try to make a post on 4chan.
They have a captcha system that's so hard to solve I think that a significant percentage of people probably simply fail to get through it. There are browser extensions and stuff to help solve it that actually prove it's easier for a robot to figure it out than a human.
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