Those of you caught up debating the technical minutiae of federating with Threads are missing the forest for the trees.
This is about one thing: Affording social capital to/normalising/legitimising Meta/Facebook/surveillance capitalism (and thereby delegitimising those who oppose them).
Hey, if the author of Mastodon thinks Meta/Facebook/Instagram/surveillance capitalism is socially acceptable there must be something wrong with you if you don’t.
@aral - So many comments continuing to "debate the technical minutiae of Threads" under a post decrying folks for "debating the technical minutiae of Threads."
@tinker@aral That’s honestly exactly what I was expecting from fedi nerds. The more vocal ones ooze the whole “tech is not political” and “all problems can be solved in code” delusions. It’s almost as if paying attention in sociology class in school would have been beneficial to society as a whole.
Or people are just asking questions about the mechanics of Threads integration to get a better understanding of the specific risks rather than just discussing the obviously predatory nature of Meta.
@davep@tinker@aral And that’s a fallacy, imho. You don’t need to discuss the technicalities of how a known bully bullies others. You just kick them out of the venue.
Obviously it is relevant to analyze the technical capability of a bully to actually do bullying in the context at hand.
What's going on here is a concerted attempt by one faction to pressure everyone else into conforming with their point of view and behavioral demands without question or further analysis.
The parallel with the Israel/Gaza propaganda battle is striking.
@accretionist@aral Ok ok. Here me out. What if I don't give a fuck about reaching a billion users? What if I just like a space that isn't a corporate controlled walled garden. What if, God forbid, I just want a social media of our own.
@accretionist@aral Dude, fuck all the way off. Who cares if Mastodon is fringe? You say Mastodon needs money, but for what? To grow? Why does Mastodon need to grow?
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral I don’t think we need paid ads to promote local services. We do need a trustable way to find local services that doesn’t go through a trillion dollar company.
Wish I could find say a guy to repair my AC on a Fediverse system with evaluations from real humans on mastodon or another system. If anything the Fediverse can be a tool for humans to communicate directly with no corporate middlemen.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral I was referring to the current situation in which people today put their classified on FB marketplace etc. It wouldn’t be so bad over here paying for ads on a mastodon instance BUT:
will expose users with no tractor 🚜 to many useless ads (either that or you need profiling)
will empower admins who want always more
In a sane world production should be based on needs. We basically need socialized yellow pages.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral The Fediverse to me is like a public service. I pay for my public parks (via taxation) and I am very glad to not have a Starbucks stamp on each duck 🦆 in exchange. Or even my local tractor 🚜 repair company since I don’t have one.
I understand the need for money for admins. Everyone needs to make a living and moderation is a painful task. But advertising is just bad. I know, I make a living off it.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral The best place for “I paint houses” is not in advertising. It’s in a Fediverse profile. With verified human people from your instance / region testifying about how well you do it. And search and indexation that works well. And a visible trust network to ensure you’re not a scammer. Humans at each step.
There’s an absurd amount of things that can be done for free or at least for the cost of hosting + admin.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral The painter who stands out by placing ads is using pre-existing capital to gain advantage. The more capital the more advantage. I want a neutral - person to person - marketplace. List your services, or items (à la artisans.coop).
Right now when I search for a tractor repair guy I get fed lots of ads (aka lies). I get the more expensive tractor repair guy because he has to charge more to pay Google ads.
@accretionist@santiago@aral ??? What? Do you think people on an individual instance are all local to each other? How is someone serving me an ad for tractor repair in Omaha local?
@accretionist@santiago@aral you know local only posting doesn't exist in Mastodon, right? It's a feature of Hometown, a fork, but Eugen has been pretty resistant to adding it to the main Mastodon.
I think that you'll find that all these small instances you're clutching your pearls about making sure they stay afloat via ads don't have all the people in one geographic area. Your whole local ads idea falls apart on that alone.
@accretionist@santiago@aral All this is going to do is get an instance that serves ads defederated from everyone else lightning quick. I think you truly do not grasp the user base of this Web site.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral If I enter your home without warning, sit on your sofa and ask you for a drink you have the choice to offer me a beer or call the police. But the real choice is that you’d have to invite me in first.
Advertising is 99% unwanted. You don’t chose. You are bombarded and tempted to consume stuff you wouldn’t even had thought about. We rely on it for financial support because it is a form of disguised payment.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral And “without ads there are no apps”. But that’s not exactly true. This is just how we work today. But if we keep replicating this the world isn’t going to get better.
Each time we provide a service for free many people save on this service. It reduces the cost of living for everyone. Right now your tractor company wastes money on Google ads. Because access is controlled and limited. But it does not have to be.
Tech is just a way to get there. We got duped for years enjoying their service without ads. Free Gmail, free FB, free WhatsApp , free Instagram all absorbing huge losses because investors advanced the billions in ad revenue to corner the market and kill any possible competition.
If we can kill FB it will be with something non commercial.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral My view is that you can’t win directly confronting capitalism. If you try to take down the bank it will burn society altogether in its fall. You can however make as many parts as you can irrelevant.
If the Fediverse has a real trust network, from human to human, one where ranking cannot be bought, it will make most advertising irrelevant. If a product is good it doesn’t need ads. Someone will use it and tell you.
one of the biggest problems with capitalism is propaganda. so many ways to turn money into mass influence. media decentralization, where ads and algos run by other people don't work, is key to a better world imo. #AttentionDemocracy, where the public again determines what info, ideas and art goes viral. the fedi is the first step. I want everyone on it. the new norm.
we need a simple automatic decentralized donation protocol. my bank to yours.
I think we just need to make those donations easier to handle and then make the bigger picture inspiring and understandable.
what if we could set up the donations inside our own banking apps? recurring small amounts to services and app makers we use. but then also a pool that gets distributed automatically and time percentage based on what we watch, read and listen to. all without middlemen. PeerTube not Netflix etc. FunkWhale not Spotify etc.
@wjmaggos@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral The way I see it: you set your “anticapitalist allowance”. I think the name should be this clear. Let’s say I chose a recurring 25€ /month or 1€. Then I can just add or remove beneficiaries and chose percentages. 20% for my instance, 5% for my preferred game creator. It is easy to integrate with an API to visualize.
This is Patreon essentially but to be run by a NGO. Can’t be another Patreon.
my original name was public patron but I'm not envisioning even an NGO (except for building/managing the protocol and banking app examples etc). it should be as simple as me@mybank.com sends $x to you@yourbank.com. we're able to find each other in our bank apps like we search fedi accounts here. then set up $1/month for both Mastodon development and another $1/month for Mastodon dot social. Then connect media players to the pool amount we decide.
@wjmaggos@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral Brazil has a national system called Pix where you just setup your E-mail / CPF (unique person ID) or even a random ID. You can transfer even 1 cent, and right now with zero cost. All banks support it. In 2024 it will allow automated payments. So in theory I could setup even a recurring 2 cents monthly payment with zero costs. Also not dependent of a large foreign financial institution like VISA.
@wjmaggos@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral Switzerland has an equivalent called TWINT. Not sure what the limits are though. Also based on phone numbers and I believe without costs. Just not as instantaneous as Apple Pay.
@accretionist@santiago@aral I never want to see ads on Mastodon. You are splitting hairs on something that no one wants. Do you seriously think building out sponsored posts is the best use of the project's time?
@accretionist@santiago@aral I totally agree that those services should go away. I don't believe Mastodon can replace them. I think you are delusional if you think it can. Growth for the sake of growth is some wall street head-ass thinking. Mastodon will grow when the user experience is better than the other sites to more people. You can couch this in "you can defederate if you want" but you are actively trying to ruin the network. Why do you need Mastodon to be big?
@accretionist@santiago@aral You described the scenario but not how it would be executed. You're saying that instance admins should field ad requests personally, approve them personally, and this will somehow be a big enough deal that small instances will take in enough dough to be huge?
This is delusional. Every time I have imposter syndrome about not having a Masters for my industry, I'm going to remember this interaction and know I'm okay.
@accretionist@santiago@aral I have offered my instance admin to split the costs of hosting many times. I would much rather pay my way than be subjected to ads. I'd much rather see an integrated subscription model in Mastodon than ads. You just have your head stuck so far up your ass that you think the only way to kill Facebook and Twitter is to become them. You are a joke.
@accretionist@santiago@aral I called you a piece of shit because you implied that I'm a leech who only uses a service without paying for it. I'll call a spade a spade any day of the week you spineless worm piece of shit.
Sorry, that was excessive, I shouldn't be so mean to worms by comparing them to you, you noxious miasmic cloud of toxic farts.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@santiago@aral You think you're on a fucking college debate team or something? There's no ref you can point to and shout "he's using an ad hominem! Award me points!" You're being insulted because your idea isn't just profoundly fucking stupid it also goes against what everyone wants from the fedi. Which is to not have ads vomiting in our eyes. Take the fucking L and process why we all hate you.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral About the tip jar problem: this is a real issue. Mainly based on the fact that people don’t value this here. Hopefully being forced to pay for Instagram to get rid of increasingly annoying ads will help them see.
To me Mastodon has more value than say NetFlix. I spend probably 20x more time on it. Yet I pay less for it. And that’s paying 9€/month hosting my own instance.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral I believe we were manipulated into thinking conversation should be free. It is in our living room. It is not free on social networks. They make billions, directly or indirectly from us. We pay by consuming. So why not pay directly and reduce harm ?
Seeing advertising is like a credit card. It feels like you’re not paying but in the end you are. If only for therapy resulting from it :-)
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral Another thing about ads: they don’t make that much money per user. Let’s say you have a mid sized instance of 5000 registered users. And maybe you have 3000 monthly active users. In traditional banner advertising that maybe 200 $ monthly. It varies a lot per target / country but imagine you want to target a small instance filled with communists and anarchists it probably won’t be in the upper bracket.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral What doesn’t work with the tip jar technique: the admin has to ask for donations repeatedly. This is annoying both to users and often for the shy admin. Otherwise people just forget.
That’s why I think this should be in the API. Set a monthly goal, have the value displayed in real time on site/app. Like total monthly costs, divided by users and what is missing this month. You can pay your share or for 5 people.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral Corporations always win with simplicity. The common mistake of our side is to blame people’s laziness.
Big companies are very good at it and get the brightest people to optimize simplicity. Ads were chosen because of simplicity. Until recently you didn’t have to agree to share your tracking data.
Sadly it’s very hard to get people who are into finance AND have ideals for a better world to setup easier payment 😅
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral My apps that made good money with ads but that’s only because there were a lot of users. These were generic utility apps & nobody felt a link to them so only 5% of revenue came from sales vs 95% from ads.
Now when you have a real community it’s probably easier to receive 50 cent from each user monthly. The biggest barrier is the payment method really. But things changed. For example Brazil has PIX so anyone can pay
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@aral It would be nice if the main mastodon source integrated better payment systems. Notably a variable payment. Say you subscribe to your instance and it’s “up to 2€ month depending on your usage”. A dormant user would pay cents. A chatty person would reach his maximum payment limit and stop there.
The most annoying part about subscriptions is you don’t know if you are going to actually use the service.
@accretionist@sexybenfranklin@santiago@aral For some useless dork advocating for placing ads on a network that explicitly does not want them you sure think you're being clever. Fuck ass loser.
I think this is the most American, internalized capitalism take I've seen on fedi.
You should do it. See how it goes. Go pave paradise and set up a parking lot, see how that works out for you.
@accretionist@aral Note: "who cares, i choose fringe" (you do you. you don't care. that's fine. and since you don't care, that's the value i'll ascribe to your words)
At no point did I say any of this. Thats quite the strawman youve built, and I DO care. Not all of us share your internalized christofascist need for manifest destiny. Mastodon doesn't need to "win" or "kill competition", neither does fedi.
@accretionist@aral its right there, point 4, screenshot 1.
When you ascribe points I never made and define meaning to the words I never said, you make yourself the enemy. If you want good faith discussions, act in good faith. Try harder and you'll get better results.
If on the other hand this is the best you have, take your techbrolonialist bullshit and fuck off back to cryptoland.
Not once did I call you a capitalist. You've made shit up again. You put words in my mouth, lied, tried to gaslight repeatedly and now gone full darvo. Every accusation you've made is a confession.
I dont need to argue against your points - theyre not coherent. Your ideas won't work - your starting poknt is entrenched in american capitalist ideals. You even confuse mastodon and fedi. Commerce exists on fedi, just not your broken vision of it.
I've not delved into the weeds, so take this as a genuine question from someone not really up on stuff.
Apparently it's one way at the moment. Does this mean stuff only gets out from Threads but not from here to there? If so, it would seem that reciprocity would be appropriate, i.e. doing the same thing (if instance admins could agree).
@davep Interested in @aral view, but for me that is not the issue. Yes, everyone can view/scrape, it's not about privacy or visibility when posting publicly. It's about feeding the Meta machine through an API and conscious decisions. It's at bare minimum opening up yourself for ingestion into their system and maybe even helping them out by interacting/reciprocating through federating.
@davep Again, it’s not about the technical details of what they can or cannot do. Can a burglar break into your house? Yes, probably. Is it something very different if you throw a party and invite the burglar in as the guest of honour? Yes, very much so.
Do you assume that #Facebook will reuse third-party Fediverse account data for e.g. surveillance? The #EDPB and the Irish data protection authority asked Facebook to rely on consent as a legal basis. One can now wonder how free this consent is if you otherwise need to pay 100€ per year or so. However, Facebook has no good leverage to seek this consent from those third-party Fediverse users. Hence, should we rely on #GDPR instead of limiting APIs? #surveillanceCapitalism#fedipact
@davep@aral@rriemann Agreed, I don’t see any additional access here. A slightly more depressing view is that an open system like the #fediverse cannot survive open long term because #ML / #’AI’ will scrape our data/private to oblivion. Invite only might be the only way forward #tragedy_of_the_commons
My understanding—by no means as an expert on this, which means I could be underestimating how much is already collected—is that random scraping or (RSS feeds) typically picks up public posts.
Federation brings in all types of data sent to the collecting server, including direct messages and followers-only posts.
There's also the issue of legality. Instagram Thread's Meta company can (or will in line with its history) argue that federation is full consent.
Interesting. I think PMs need an overhaul anyway, as admins can read them. Do they only go to the two instances involved or to all? I'd assume it's on a required/used cache basis, so the former (but have no actual idea in reality).
Consent must be informed and specific under #GDPR. Any Fediverse server may use consent or legimate interest to display public Fediverse content on their server. However, it is not clear to me how consent for or legimate interest of #Facebook repurposing data for behavior analysis/ads could be justified.
Every home server can also decide their API terms of use that Facebook would need to respect. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer)
Individual blocking of #Threads by Fediverse users could be interpreted as withdrawal of consent and objection to processing on the basis of #Facebook's legitimate interest under #GDPR.
For me, this is quite obvious. The last words have the courts if Facebook would have a different view. Facebook would need to make such processing transparent in their privacy notice.
@rriemann@shadowsminder@john380@davep@aral IIRC Meta tried to claim legitimate interest under the GDPR for data processing for ads, and it backfired badly once that hit the courts. So they switched to their current "pay or consent" model, which is ALSO likely to backfire badly because that can hardly be considered freely given consent. If one's browser sending a DNT HTTP header signals objection to legitimate interest data processing, blocking federation by established means should too!
@aral My vague point was that if they're doing egress only then if we do the same reciprocally then we effectively cut the link without banning the instance. It's a tactical thing rather than strategic, and quite possibly technically wrong.
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