Let me repeat myself ONE MORE TIME. I'm a 59 year old BLACK WOMAN. You have a lot of fucking nerve attempting to tell me about the impure Dems. I've been voting ALL MY LIFE for the lesser of TWO evils. This time, you are voting for your OWN FUCKING SURVIVAL. If you don't get that by now, don't talk to me anymore. I'm tired of your privilege to even say SHIT like that out loud.
@StillIRise1963 I have also seen a lot of “oh we are equally oppressed whether it’s Democrats or Republicans in charge” and meanwhile a formerly homeless person I organize with says “which party controls the government determines how much SNAP and Medicaid and housing assistance people get or if they get it at all,” it’s a huge disconnect.
@MisuseCase@StillIRise1963 Yep. I'd argue "oppressed no matter what" could work, but "equally”? On what planet. It's like they don't even remember the first Trump term at all and/or were privileged enough to be completely unaffected. There are countless examples of the differences, but they're too busy being proud of their "morals" (they have none if they're willing to abandon vulnerable people for such "morals”) to see the suffering around them and recognize how much worse it can and will get.
Agreed. Annoying as hell, because generally people who take that position are entitled and can't imagine bad things would really ever impact them. It's a luxury to say if I don't get what I want, burn it all down, when they know their house is never going to burn.
Nevertheless, hopefully this high moral BS will begin to moderate as we move closer to the election and the reality of the impending fascist takeover becomes a more clear and present danger.
@StillIRise1963 facts. I'm so sick of the bothsiderism, the lack of civics knowledge and critical thinking skills from whiny, privileged bubble-dwellers.
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer People have to vote in the primaries to get who they want then. Those numbers are even worse then the generals. And you still have to vote strategically in many cases.
“Strong” could mean almost anything though. It’s a bit vague.
@Zammer@BernieWonIowa I’m talking about the primaries, silly. Which you just posted about. Primaries- where everyone is running. Starting to wonder if y’all are American or Putin is next to ya. Do you know what primary elections are?
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer Unflattering tag. I said we need better turnout in primaries to get stronger candidates if that’s your complaint. And turnout is low there. Blue MAGA started with right wing channels so nice work whether you know it or not. By the way.
@Zammer@BernieWonIowa I criticize Dems all the time. And we’re talking about voting so, not related at all. I know the term. It was invented in right wing circles to give to people on the left to divide them. And you’re doing it.
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer I’m not talking to you if you keep using that dumb hashtag. If you want to have a serious conversation, stop changing the subject and cut it out. You’re really full of propaganda for someone claiming not to be using it.
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer This is a false equivalency. And you don’t even know what it is. It’s a logical fallacy used to derail conversations, guess who by?
Jeez.
“Blue MAGA
A pejorative term that attempts to create a false equivalency between Joe Biden’s and Donald Trump’s supporters and/or policies.”
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer WHO in this conversation represents that? Maybe the Bernie avatar person arguing with me over something I never said. Uncritical Bernie loyalty.
@Zammer Yeah. I keep telling myself I’m going to block these accounts straight off, but they do this new thing where they go to where I replied to someone else and then I feel like I can’t let it lay there. Thanks. Always enjoy your posts.
@BernieWonIowa@TonyStark the problem isn't conservative Dems in conservative areas. They actually reflect their constituents beliefs. The question comes down to who do you want to argue with, the person whose values mostly align with yours and who will actually listen or the person who'll laugh in your fucking face then mock you?
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer Dems have a wide range of types and yes, there are places where the more moderate ones represent their districts best and have high turnout. Raises hand.
All of this fact free arguing from an account centered on one state Bernie won at me, a person who’s worked for all sorts of elections and that account knows it, has only one purpose- division.
@BernieWonIowa@TonyStark also, there's no such thing as BlueMAGA. In fact, you're proving my point about bothsiderism. You're comparing realists who recognize the looming fascism of the Republican party and will do everything in their power to stop it, including vote for politicians they occasionally disagree with, with a cult of anti-democratic fascists hell bent on turning this country into an authoritarian Christian theocracy. But cry more about how Biden approved a handful of oil projects
@Zammer@BernieWonIowa The term originated in right wing Reddit and these accounts are too stupid to know they’re tools. The purity demands never end. Meanwhile, they’re throwing every person with rights challenges under the bus.
@BernieWonIowa@Zammer That’s one part of line 6, and just his name shouldn’t scare you so much. More false equivalence to make a big list and attribute the whole thing to one small word. Quit harassing me and accusing me of things or I’m going to report you. It’s intentional misinformation.
@BernieWonIowa@TonyStark@Zammer so it’s cool with you that Bernie swapped letters in the Vermont primary just to reject the democratic nomination, go independent again, in order to deny an actual Democrat a fair chance in the primary? You little hypocrite. You’re just a bitter cultist who wants to cosplay as yesterday’s Marxist. I’m a card carrying Social Democrat and your politics are a fucking joke to us.
@BernieWonIowa@TonyStark@Zammer And when I want to listen to some sock whine about a has-been messiah complex hack, I'll go find a Trump voter on twitter. Go be obsolete and daft somewhere else, because the grownups are busy dealing with the fallout of your self-destructive tantrums.
@victoriadecapua@BernieWonIowa@Zammer I’ve picked up so many great people to follow in this thread. JFC, “Bernie Won Iowa” - hard to find a stupider thing to cling to like it’s gong to get anyone anywhere. Cripes.
@StillIRise1963 I'm old enough to remember the election of 1968 where people saying they refused to vote for "the lesser of two evils" helped Richard Nixon become president. People are willfully blind to the fact that if they pull that crap, we (and they) end up with the worse of two evils, often much worse.
@TCatInReality@meredithw@StillIRise1963 I laughed out loud but it's very true. I think if you must explain this to someone they have bigger issues than their poor logic.
Of course, democracy is about compromise and coalitions. We've been brainwashed to demand 100% of what we want, or the system is broken. No wonder so many are disengaged.
@meredithw@StillIRise1963
Exactly! Like it or not, in the United States, it's a binary choice. One or the other. As much as we may prefer this weren't true, it is.
Voters need to pick the one that represents their interests more closely.
@bigheadtales@StillIRise1963 Actually, a problem we've run into multiple times is that when it's not a binary choice, people who rant against "lesser of two evils" protest vote for a 3rd party candidate who has no chance of winning but siphons away enough votes that the worse evil wins. We've seen that with Nader, Stein, and others.
If you vote for someone you don't want you are assured of losing. In 2000 Nader was the best candidate and he ran the best campaign and I am proud to have worked for and voted for him.
Americans got what they deserved: they had an opportunity to overturn the corporate duopoly and they blinked.
And look what's happened since. It may be too late to salvage the American experiment.
Is there anyone who the Dems could nominate who you couldn't hold your nose for long enough to vote for?
Do you agree that whatever short-term respite you get from voting for the lesser of two evils has to be weighed against the long-term degradation of our politics?
It's a fucked- up system in which a criminal sociopath and a mediocre geriatric are the likely contestants for president.
No I'm a progressive. A long-standing supporter and one time candidate for the Green party.
I've never voted for a Democrat or a Republican in my life (until I held my nose for Biden in 2020) and I didn't vote at all until I was 44 years old in 2000 when I cast my first presidential ballot for Ralph Nader.
@Dave_Goldsmith Fascism mean anything to you? Do you understand the importance of this election and why Dems are the only choice whether you love them or not, whether you are one or not?
I swear, the "but Dems are also evil so why vote" apologists are white peeps who don't fear for their lives on a constant basis AND fail to understand that mathemetically, no matter what, this country is a 2-party system.
Most often, it's white people who grew up with parents who were staunch Republicans. They grew up hearing all about the evils of the Democrats (but noooo, not Black people, Jews, Asians, LGBTQ+ who make up their voter base /s) and when they "rebelled" against their parents, they became "left". Too far left to vote for those darned Dems who won't help them economically!
In 10 years, they turn into boring Republicans ranting about their taxes going to "Democrats".
It always starts with "Well, the "Democrats" (see: actually vulnerable people who will suffer) should have voted for my candidate. They're just getting what they deserve. Maybe next time, those poor, stupid Democrats will have suffered enough to learn why they shouldn't vote for Democrats!"
Not hard to see how those people become standard ass Republicans who will "save Black people from themselves".
@birdpoof@StillIRise1963@imstilljeremy White leftists are some of the most tiring people online and they’re online more than other people. And that’s exactly where they end up after ruining existence for anyone else. And lots have “Black Lives Matter” tags. Yeah, right.
@Heimdall@birdpoof@StillIRise1963@imstilljeremy The extreme #farL who encourage non voting or voting 3rd party are lapping up anti Dem propaganda w/ a fucking ladle & the jackass Prog leaders they support know it & even when forced to admit it, still don’t warn them. Makes my head explode. And yeah it comes from such a willfully ignorant position of privilege. They think when their Unicorn fart revolution/socialism manifests itself they will be safe korupt mid range grifters, above the fray
@StillIRise1963@fraying right??? I’m done with people griping about the lesser of two evils. It’s LESS. The magical unicorn fairy land is not waiting behind door number 3. When I was a political science TA, I told my students “politics is the art of the possible. If you wanna dream, major in theater.” I’ll take half a loaf if the choice is that or death.
@StillIRise1963@fraying I was born in Birmingham in 1972, two miles from 16th Street Baptist Church. I have a pretty good idea what’s at stake and I’m slap out of patience with those who don’t.
@StillIRise1963@asbestos I figure these aren't unidirectional weapons. Voter suppression via apathy works on everyone. Chuck the bomb back at the people who threw it.
@davealvarado@StillIRise1963@asbestos The way crims like Trump and De Santis got into office is that ignorant people got off their asses and voted. If decent, honest people aren't willing to get off their butts and vote, there will just be more crims in office.
@StillIRise1963@asbestos by the way, white people and people who pass as white, especially in red states, this is a way you can fight. Republicans have been teaching their voters not to trust the government for years. Use this when you're at Thanksgiving, or at a party, or at the water cooler. You're in conversations POC can't enter. Use that privilege.
@davealvarado@StillIRise1963
I love to use that. I end up in places like that. "oh that DeSantis, he thinks the government should be involved in everything" "you know, the police are part of the government, right?"
Like hank hill said to Dale "
The NRA is a Washington DC based organization, are you telling me you support Washington DC?"
@davealvarado
I pretty much do because I honestly don't trust the government. Given Republicans have gone full fascist, it is the party of big government, the biggest of them all. @StillIRise1963@asbestos
I think I'm being called out with this comment. And I'm not even complaining because I needed this wakeup call. This is an fantastic suggestion and one I've never considered. Thank you Dave!
Besides the "government doesn't work" statement, do you (or anyone else) have any other suggestions for more ways I can use my privilege at Thanksgiving or parties? I'm all ears.
@StillIRise1963 I always figured that Trump did such a good job of making the GOP the kings of everything EVIL - the Dems would have no territory left EXCEPT the defence of GOOD …. or at least..better.
I get what you're saying and, for the most part, I agree. My fear with all the vote blue no matter who is that, while doing this, people (not you) are using it to excuse Dems for not doing their jobs. We must NEVER let elected officials off the hook for them not doing what they were elected to do.
1/2
@Mary625@StillIRise1963 we have to destroy the GOP. leave DNC as a moderate center party and shift the overton window left enough for an actual progressive party on the left.
so yes, vote blue no matter what. then we get into shades of blue once red is destroyed.
I'm sorry but I fully believe that not keeping elected officials honest is why we're here.
If you're saying don't hold those in power accountable, I completely disagree. That's why we're here.
I'll step out of this conversation because I have such great respect for @StillIRise1963
But I cannot and will not just say, okay Pelosi, stump for an anti-woman candidate, it's all good because they're not republicans. Nope. can't do it
@Mary625@itzpaquet@StillIRise1963
Mary - I didn't hear anything about not holding Democrats to account for their failures, only that failing to vote for them in general elections when faced with a reactionary, white supremacist, antisemitic, misogynistic, homophobic and jingoistic alternative isn't how to do it.
@StillIRise1963 As a 63yo white woman one thing I have definitely learned is that if the rest of this country had started listening to Black women 50 years ago we'd ALL be in a lot better shape now.
@StillIRise1963 had a run in with that guy earlier. Best to block Ole Socialist Stan and let him argue with the wind. He's not debating anything in good faith.
@StillIRise1963@Adam_Cadmon1 He changed instances more than once and tried interfering over here repeatedly, particularly with women for some reason. He draws a few people in which is unfortunate.
@SocialistStan Gotta love the “politics of hate”. I got blocked too for the same opinion.
“Welcome to a state where the politics of hate
Shout loud in the crowd "Watch them beat us all down"
There's a rising tide in the rivers of blood
But if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence”
@SocialistStan She literally just said DON'T TALK TO HER if that's what you're about.
Great job ignoring a Black woman's wishes so you can feel morally superior while failing to minimize harm to marginalized communities.
@666k9s@KindlyWizard I actually had some moderate folks try to tell me I should be nicer to people like that troll. No. I won't be nice to troll folks like that. I won't apologize for my standards on quality control there either.
@msquebanh@666k9s@KindlyWizard As a radical moderate, I’ll chime in and say Human Rights mandates that one affords dignity to all humans, even for actual trolls, but it doesn’t mandate that you offer a kind opinion of their behavior.
No need to apologize for anything you aren’t in the wrong about!
@msquebanh@KindlyWizard I’m just saying, one person’s troll is another person’s legitimate inquirer. There’s definitely a non-zero probability that any given troll is being for real.
Offensive stupidity (“honest” trolls) is one thing, but deliberate offensiveness (actual trolls) is another, right?
@KashifShah@KindlyWizard I don't spend much time analyzing shitass trolls. Some folks are worth spending more time & energy on. Online shitty trolls do not fall into that arena for me. Everyone has their own choices on who they want to exert extra energies on. I don't play with trolls. I kick them the fuck outta my sandbox & they know I'm gonna throw sand in their eyes, if they're dumb enough to try to get back into my sandbox.
@KashifShah@KindlyWizard I'm a frontlines activist & you don't get time to psycho analyze enemy when they're constantly attacking & using war like deprivation tactics on you - on remote blockades. We're the ones putting our bodies on the lines. We're the ones being assaulted by RCMP. We're the ones who still refuse to give up, despite multiple assaults.
@KashifShah@KindlyWizard Your 3rd sentence is actually why many of us longtime BIPOC activists stopped giving a shit about what ppl think of us. Half of those folks never actually show up in public to state what they strongly state - online. I don't differ offline. I am just as vocal & sometimes more than just a bit vocal.
@msquebanh@KindlyWizard Just constantly keep the UDHR in mind and you will be fine! Always look for the green flags, which I suspect that you probably already do, so that you know when to switch-gears back to giving a shit, right?
I’m still new to activism, but that seems important as a quality control measure.
@KindlyWizard Why should I vote for either wing of this fascist eagle?
I have no respect for people who push energy into the electoral system and putting others in 'power' over the rest of us. So guess what, I'm going to block you both and then you won't have to be bothered.
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