I'm starting to really like Jamelle Bouie's writing on politics. While he still essentially has a liberal perspective (as opposed to a radical or left perspective) he's really good at identifying and criticizing liberal process, technicality and hypocrisy-based criticisms of the right.
These are criticisms that don't address the gulf in values, morality, or outcomes, but focus instead on things like finding hypocrisies, or showing how the right is failing to live up to the constitution. 1/
The problem with simply showing that the right is hypocritical is that they know this and do not care. They don't want to treat people equally or apply rules fairly.
Take the whole supreme court mess. The hypocrisy is staggering! "You blocked Obama from appointing and yet did not apply the same standard for Trump, instead you enabled his appointments!"
To this the right says "Of course. We are trying to win. What on earth are you playing at?"
And for what it's worth I think we could use more thinking like this in liberal circles. The left isn't big enough or popular enough to lead the conversation, making our best hope at surviving and growing being that more moderate people wake up to the zero sum game the right is playing.
There will be no norms, no decorum, no respect for the integrity of institutions. They will stretch the letter of the law to meet their ends, and when that fails ignore the laws.
@futurebird this is a really big distinction and it's hard to not be on one "side" or the other - the right is trying "to win". But what does it mean when the left declares moderate candidates like Biden and even...Pelosi (horrors!), who "can win", to be total non-starters; the only way forward is "overthrow the whole system" - which is how these various 3rd party candidates come about, who essentially work against the D's in states that dont have ranked choice
No one serious, or not taking astroturf money is really doing this.
The most significant player doing this is Dr. West, who announced a presidential run to a massive collective shrug from the left.
What is a non-starter at the moment is thinking that voting alone is a solution to any of the issues. It's more important to keep boosting the growing labor movement, organizing locally, and maybe electing some people you really like at that level.
@futurebird OK! I hope you are right. I thought that Jill Stein, Nader etc. really helped tilt the scales the wrong way in extremely tight contests. I just find that to be very frustrating
3rd party voters are complex and hard to predict. I think many of them show up to vote if there is a 3rd party candidate they like but would not vote otherwise.
US elections have such low turn out it's much more about who shows up than it is about swaying voters from one candidate to another.
Trump managed to trick some people in 2016 by making vague anti-war noises and by pissing off establishment media which some people find delightful. He's lost a lot of those people forever.
@futurebird this election IMO is extra scary because there's this BS no labels thing that might throw another middle-party psycho like Manchin in the mix which is widely believed would be a disaster for the Ds, and I hear nobody talking about how that's going to be addressed
No Labels is best served by being studiously ignored.
They want to draw democrats into an argument since that's they only way anyone will even know they exist.
And to most leftists Democrats look really bad when they argue with such people. It makes Democrats seem "entitled" and "just assuming we'll vote for you" You can't win confronting them directly or attacking them.
(because there are real flaws with Democrats from a leftist perspective)
@futurebird right, it seems "ignore them" is what even the media is doing right now, if that works to prevent them from running a candidate at all, then that would be great.
@futurebird@zzzeek I'm more than likely going to vote Democrat in every election but I still feel from my pretty far left wing perspective the Democrats absolutely have a problem with talking down to and taking for granted the votes of the left
I mean Biden started out his campaign saying he has no sympathy for the problems of young people (you can argue about context or whatever but those words came out of his mouth and people took it to heart)
@futurebird@zzzeek This is the issue that gets me the most. For most of my lifetime, voter turnout among registered voters has been around the 50% level. I absolutely understand the various voter suppression policies that have helped with this, and have kicked into high gear as Republicans see themselves losing the demographic advantage, but that doesn’t account for all the nonvoters. Is it just everyday cynicism? Too hard to vote? Other? 🗳️
In some cases it's that it is too hard to vote. The locations change, people are removed from rolls, after moving, you have to re-register etc.
In places like NYC where voting is frankly pretty easy, often there isn't much to vote about. Close elections are rare, so a lot of the low turn out is from very blue or red areas where showing up doesn't change much.
@aburka@futurebird@zzzeek That one has been a problem for so long, and yet even some of those you think would benefit by making Election Day a federal holiday have failed to take up such legislation when introduced. Fear of the working class + embedded racism?
This is a pet peeve of mine. And even as I question if I'm being paranoid, I can't help but notice that moderate Democrats are very enthusiastic about more people voting (and why not, they do better when suffrage increases) right up until the point that they have just enough votes to win.
@futurebird@aburka@zzzeek Yes! This! And it’s stupid because it then incentivizes more gerrymanders and voter suppression by Republicans in the next election! And moderate Democrats don’t fight back hard enough.
That's the dark side, the willingness to risk all our rights and lives against "not going too far" with being a popular party with a massive voter base.
@futurebird@aburka@zzzeek It’s as if they feel they have more in common with “Republicans leaning Independent” than with the actual left-leaning Democratic base…
Oh, wait. 🙄
Fortunately said base is now pushing and shoving them in more pro-democracy directions, but the self-interested inertia drives me crazy, can’t imagine how bad it is for those more directly affected.
@aprilfollies@aburka@futurebird@zzzeek the idea of election day as a federal holiday sounds really compelling, except the people who have a hard time voting because of their work schedule don’t get holidays off anyway. Plus most public transportation systems run limited schedules on federal holidays because people aren’t working, which is counter to the purpose too. Universal early voting and vote by mail are the way forward.
@aprilfollies@aburka@futurebird@zzzeek ultimately, we need an omnibus voting rights constitutional amendment that requires all states to follow the same rules for federal elections inc. registration, roll maintenance, early, mail-in and dropbox voting, voting machines, ending disenfranchising for all but election fraud convictions, and creating a standard for how electoral maps are drawn, but nobody’s willing to try that.
I'm not sure of the state of the technology in the USA, but you're aware that voting machines without an immediate (vote per vote) paper trail cannot possibly assure both anonymity of the vote and accountability of the process ?
@lienrag@amaditalks@aprilfollies@futurebird@zzzeek On the off chance this comment is on good faith -- all the electronic voting machines I have used print a paper receipt which is kept for recounts and such
It's been like pulling teeth to get support for registration efforts in NYC. And I have to realize that's because if every new yorker voted the party would swing so far left it'd be unrecognizable.
But in a way I'm making the same mistake as liberals who are shocked and hurt the right has no integrity.
But while we can agree on getting more people voting we can still work together, I suppose. I, however, will not stop. Ever.
@futurebird@aprilfollies@zzzeek And in Philadelphia, it's not just that 80% of the city is reliably Democratic, but that Pennsylvania until recently didn't get to gote until late in the primary season.
@futurebird
Texas has enacted election laws whose effect is to make urban voters have to wait in long lines to vote, while rural voters can be in and out in 5 minutes.
There is also a strong fatalistic attitude ("the Republicans are going to win anyway").
If you're certain that your vote won't change anything, and you know voting is going to be an ordeal, AND you think Democrats won't help you either..? Then a lot of people will not vote.
@TerryHancock@futurebird@aprilfollies@zzzeek I think Biden/Dems caved too quickly on the pro-voting agenda, when it became clear they didn’t have the votes. It would have been better to tie up Senate business and make it a topic of insider conversation until it filtered out to the general public.
People facing barriers to voting need to see high-profile Democrats send expensive signals that they care about this stuff. It’s OK to lose a vote when seeing you try it unites your coalition and energizes activists. The right understands this.
I suppose there’s no reason they can’t try again. Biden is speaking in public about “democracy”, so maybe it is going to happen.
@futurebird
OTOH, in the country, where I live, there are flagpoles everywhere with:
blue-line flag
Texas separatist flags
Taxed Enough Already TEA
Trumpist/MAGA flags
Like, huge yard displays. Proud fascists.
When I went to vote in the 2022 Primary, they directed me to the Republican table w/o asking. I had to object. This is public shaming -- it's what you have to do to vote against dictators in sham democracies.
@TerryHancock@futurebird@aprilfollies@zzzeek When I voted on the 14 primary in rural Texas, the white guys directed me to the GOP table because I'm a white guy. I then realized where I was and sauntered over to the table staffed by little old black ladies.
I got death stares the entire time from the white guys. The black ladies whispered to me that I should take some extra turns on the way home to make sure they wouldn't send their boys after me.
If anyone stands in my way (and they do!) I just tell them I’m voting for their guy.
No, they aren’t allowed to ask, and no, I don’t have to answer. But if there was any trouble started, I don’t have a gun, and the police aren’t going to protect me.
This is how bad the pearl-clutching is on the right. They see it as their sworn duty to stop women, minorities, gays, trans, anyone but them from having any rights.
There are literally no rules they won’t break, since the ends justify ANY means.
@raineer@TerryHancock@futurebird@aprilfollies@zzzeek in 2022 the poll worker in my rural Tennessee County didn't even ask (as they used to) whether I wanted the Democrat or Republican ballot. She just had them written down so I could point to the one I wanted. Honestly, I appreciated it, but it made me sad.
To me as a UK citizen, even this seems DEEPLY weird.
We have the equivalent of primaries, where party members vote to select their party's candidate(s). But this process is run by the party itself. The state is not involved in this internal business and there is no such thing as a "registered" voter for any party.
@futurebird@arturN
When I voted in the Swedish local elections, they had a system (now changed) where you had to grab the lists for the party you wanted outside the voting booth, and then take it with you inside the booth to vote in secret, and the idea was that you could pick up a handful of different lists if you wanted to be sneaky about it 🙃
To be fair my South Bronx polling station is a little unready for the six or seven republicans who want to vote in the republican primary for some reason.
(I literally live in the bluest district in the country)
I have seen them dig out the other primary form and no one made it weird. Thing is there is just one guy running for each office so the primary vote is kinda pointless. They will still be on the general ballot. earn 2%
@futurebird@arturN@ArmyGirl@raineer@TerryHancock@aprilfollies@zzzeek There are important elements in the voting process that are necessary not only for its legitimacy, but for the appearance of legitimacy "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion". The fact that people, for starters, <must> be registered to vote instead of being automatically included in the electoral census is one of those things we in (continental) Europe (and elsewhere) find absolutely silly.
In case anyone thinks there are lines in the cities in TX because cities have more people, in NYC I have only ever waited in line once 20 years: 2008 for about 10min.
And that was more like a party than a line, everyone wanted to vote for the first black president (south bronx)
I do wonder why that 10min line isn't there every time. Further, I suspect if the line was there often they would increase the number of polls. I never wait. No one should.
@futurebird@TerryHancock@zzzeek I mean, they said the quiet part out loud in Georgia when they outlawed bringing food and water to people in voting lines which are, as you say, mysteriously absent in majority-white communities. And though that particular provision was overturned, there are still other strategic discouragements from the same bill still standing.
@futurebird@TerryHancock@aprilfollies@zzzeek At the rec center where we vote, there are five different tables, each with their own pair of machines, because we have small divisions. So we see a decent number of people, but not a lot of lines.
A few years ago I posted a question on /askreddit “why don’t more young people vote?” I got a LOT of replies and about 98% said voting is “too inconvenient,” AND the respondent would absolutely vote if it were online and secure, like bank or credit transactions.
I’m disabled and could not vote if CA didn’t have mail-in ballots. It’s time to adjust to people’s needs. We haven’t had a higher turnout than 67% since 1900, and Midterms average about 45%.
In the last ten years, voter turnout in Austria at general elections was 75% - 80%.
I think it's because you don't have to register to vote*, don't have to wait at the polling stations and you can also vote via mail.
*) The state already knows your address and citizenship(s).
I think a lot of young people don't vote because they inherited a planet ravaged by climate change, an economic system that keeps them in poverty and unable to buy a house, a fascist police state that is out of control and yet the only candidates the two parties are giving them are the same Boomer fucks who are responsible for all of it.
@futurebird@TerryHancock@aprilfollies@zzzeek out of curiosity, which precinct are you voting at? I’ve been a poll worker since 2020, and the last mayoral primary was bonkers. We didn’t get out of there until around 1am.
WA state has had 100% mail in voting for years and it's incredible! You can sit in your jammies and drink coffee and discuss the candidates, and then submit your ballot at a convenient drop box. WHY DOESN'T EVERYBODY DO THIS. (And - sigh - I know the answer.)
@tikistitch I have always done it in Pa, because I'm disabled. Soon, that will be threatened AGAIN, but my community and entire state are more purple than most who don't live here know.
ANY organized group that tries to make it HARDER for people to vote - for me that is a showstopper. Seems like it should be for every voter, no matter the other policies they advocate.
This is so convenient. Until the right-wing freak out about mail in voting in 2020, I had mostly forgotten how people in other parts of the country still had to physically go vote in person like we had to in the old days.
@tikistitch@futurebird@TerryHancock@aprilfollies@zzzeek my only concern with 100% vote by mail is that it likely means that people who can't vote on a paper ballot independently (blind, low literacy, some physical disabilities) have fewer places to access accessible voting. That likely forces them to either get help which removes their ability to vote privately or travel further to somewhere they can vote independently. I don't know exactly how Washington handles this though.
California mails everyone a vote by mail ballot and has in person voting for most, if not all, of the state. It's more expensive but seems like the best option as far as accessibility and encouraging turnout.
@futurebird@zzzeek Right, good point. I remember that in Maryland my family used to vote in a desultory sort of way, because our district was reliably Democratic. That gets into the whole nightmare of gerrymandering, too. Ack.
I’m in Georgia now and working with Fair Fight, and the dirty vote-discouraging tricks are through the roof. No mystery here when they purge voter lists, shut polling places, cut absentee ballots, challenge voter registrations… 🙄🤬
@futurebird I live in a purple town in a purple district in NYS. We have managed to push the town government over to the D side, I am proud to have two of our elected Ds as local neighbors and personal friends; but we dont know how long it can last. where I live, things like lawn signs are significant. the district overall we can't get it to the D side.
Sign up to register people to vote. Check that all your extended family and friends have been checking that they are still registered and not bumped from the rolls.
If you encounter a person who is so disillusioned they hate both parties and think they are equally bad you could spend hours trying to win them over, or just let them know that you don't think it's that simple and move on and get 10 people signed up with the same effort.
@futurebird we've found there's a lot of folks in suburbia who just lie. they're trumpers but they are embarrassed and still want to be your friend, so they say they're Democrats. though realistically at my age I dont think we know anyone socially who is straight up "not voting". I guess people's fresh-from-high school kids might be in that category but I wouldnt know. hard to get voting stats for small towns
@zzzeek@futurebird as much as I don't care for Jill Stein, centrists need to stop saying people like her help the GOP win. This assumes that the people who come out for fringier leftish candidates were going to vote Dem. There's no proof of that. The evidence says the opposite. Stop wasting your energy on that. It's a mirage.
Agree. It gets on my nerves personally, after running around busting my butt for Democrats I don't like that much. I have no illusions about liking a presidential candidate. I will vote for and support the most effective and least destructive person who can win. The end.
Asking me to be nice and pretend to like them is too far. And I know what I'm doing. The people I'm convincing to vote are turned off by magical electoralism thinking.
@futurebird@zzzeek it's strange that this concept seems like a nuance too far for centrist dems who also constantly want to talk about how things are too nuanced and complex to actually fix with policy right now.
What is easier? deprogramming 400 "two wings, same bird" Jimmy Dore fans... or helping 400 people to find the correct polling place and offering rides and child care to those who need it?
Also... what fosters more good will and positive energy?
No confused terminally online former leftist now disaffected confused Greenwald fan has ever been won over by a liberal telling them how they ruined everything. So even if you are correct, take your own advice and be pragmatic!
Personally, I'm happy that people who vote for 3rd parties vote at all. And they didn't vote for the right so it's just not their fault if the right wins.
I have had 3rd party voters be great helpers on registration drives. And they know most of the people they sign up (we're mostly in place like Pittsburgh, Philly, etc) will vote for Democrats, but they also know some might try a 3rd party and they still see the value.
@nebkor@futurebird I don't believe that at all. I believe the Greens fail the country by vaulting narcissistic candidates to the top contest in the country as intentional spoilers while being basically invisible at every other level of government
@nebkor right this goes to the original start of the thread. Republicans do everything to win. Democrats descend into infighting and lose. This is why abortion is largely banned now, why we have citizens united, the Heller decision on guns, voting rights act gutted. Let's keep "holding Democrats to task" and keep losing some more rights by continuing to infight !
@zzzeek the leaders of the Democratic Party refused to put support for abortion in their platform as a litmus test, for decades; blaming 3rd party voters is some fucking nerve.
@nebkor every debate about the green party ends up here, at all the same starting corners. Been having these since 2000. The original thread here is about hey, maybe leftists need the liberals to actually get things done. I had hope...
@futurebird sure it worked out in 2020 because who even knew who the green candidate was. Hope it's the same for 2024. Would be better if the greens focused on local / state elections instead of always emphasize just the presidency, like some kind of giant stunt. I see nothing whatsoever from the green party in my town regarding local issues so this really makes them appear disingenuous
If I understand correctly, third-parties in Philadelphie (and maybe Pittsburgh) have a quite responsible ways of third-partying ?
That is, they never present unelectable candidates in situations where there is a potential tie between the greater evil and the lesser evil.
That's not what Nader/Stein do.
So while I firmly believe that breaking the two-party system is the greatest priority in US politics and that no progress can be made otherwise, it's still possible to do it smartly.
@futurebird@zzzeek in right leaning threads they say the same things about 3rd parties stealing the vote, spoilers, never working at local levels and causing the Democrats to win.
A classic is Kentuckys Governor. 4 years ago he won by 5k votes. The libertarian and constitutional party got 28k votes.
They were not going to vote democrat.
When rumore that the working family party was going to run, the D&R’s made ballot access too hard. So now the Governor is on his own
@futurebird@zzzeek
A well thought out vote is the start
Volunteering
Being engaged, sharing information and informing the people in office we are paying attention and willing to replace them
With
Our
VOTE
@futurebird@zzzeek Actually, Dr. West's presidential bid is having an effect; it's helping me leave the Green Party and go back to the Dems.
Every four years they get some lefty celebrity to tilt at the windmill instead of building the local bench, and campaign harder in swing states than safely blue ones, and I'm tired of it. I may as well get a shot at voting in a primary again.
One point in his favor, he only hangs out will Bill Maher rather than Putin. 😒
@futurebird@zzzeek
This.
Best praxis at this moment in the liberal democracies is to build out the coalition towards the centre AND towards disengaged radicals, work hard getting the least evil option elected in all elections, and work even harder building parallel institutions and structures to resist and model alternatives for people who are despairing.
@futurebird Liberalism as currently constituted in the US seems unable to rise to its own defense despite its considerable legacy power. Whatever one can say for it as an ideology, as a movement I don’t respect it.
@futurebird tysm for your succinctness here. Many on the left have always seen this as a fight for survival, not for civility. As has been pointed out to me, the fascists only true project is to destroy their enemies and will use any means to do so.
@futurebird If we are going to survive this, if the human race is going to survive this, people on the left need to get better at making people in the public afraid of the bad things that will happen. People should be scared shitless.
@futurebird sometimes I read a post like and wonder if Liberals in “liberal circles” (which I had been a part of my whole life) understand the support the “left” is gathering for good reason.
@futurebird The right votes for party, the rest votes for issues (oversimplification, but I don’t think I’m that far off). That’s why the right loves throwing issues out there to divide.
There’s only one issue we should vote on. One. One that makes or breaks everything else. Vote out the far right at all times.
Then we can bicker about the best solution. Can’t do that with those that claim there is no problem, and then make up pretend issues.
@futurebird Then the only concern should be about making sure they always lose. And when confronted, to simply say "Yes, because when you win things get worse."
#GOP hypocrisy is conscious & purposeful - a form of lying that they flaunt to show off their antisocial disdain for the norms of fair & decent human behavior.
@futurebird this point cannot be emphasized enough. People must understand that hypocrisy DOES NOT MATTER to the Right. You’re not dunking on them when you point it out. Integrity doesn’t matter one iota to them, ever.
@futurebird Years ago, there was a Colbert skit where the Dems, represented by a little girl, were playing a game with the GOP represented by a little boy. As they played, the boy would break the rules or invent new ones just so he would get his way. The girl would look up the rules & tell him he was playing wrong, & then he'd do it again, eventually saying I Won! & flipping the board & walking out of the room as the girl shouted No you did not!
I think about this a lot.
@futurebird In addition, Bouie has a phenomenal knowledge of American History, especially Black History. He comes at most issues with an understanding of how we got here.
@futurebird I follow him on TikTok, and he comes up with these amazing points, and sometimes responses, while he is out for a walk. Just a really organized, very well-read brain.
@futurebird I agree, Jamelle has an integrity and an unwillingness to indulge in wishful thinking which put his contributions head and shoulders above the liberal run of the mill. I give him credit in particular for clocking Trump as a fascist very early relative to his peers.
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