The charges usually end up falling onto the last one who can’t stick them onto someone else.
Like, a carrier can blame the ISP, who can blame the VPN, who can check its logs and blame an address owner, who… better keep their own logs capable of identifying someone else if they’re letting random people do random stuff using that address. And a good lawyer, and will and money to fight it.
It sure is weird how a political system based around who has the most money always ends up hurting the people that don’t have money. Nobody could’ve predicted that.
Is there really a realistic way to do it differently? Situations ending up in court are complex and ambiguous. It’s never a simple “if this then that” kind of thing. So in the end it’s about making arguments and convincing each other. Different people have different skills and depending how you match up, arguments are lost or won. There will always ever be a limited amount of extremely skillful people. Even if you would make sure that money isn’t a barrier, time/availability will still be and so still most people will end up with inadequate council.
If a justice system is so hard to use that only a small portion of the trained professionals can do it adequately it needs a massive overhaul. This of course is basically impossible and won’t happen. The US is a particularly bad case because of the sheer outdatedness of its constitution an court procedures.
I think most laws started out simple. Reality isn’t simple, however. And I would bet that any attempt to simplify it will be adjusted over time and will end up being just as complicated again.
I mean, the law could be simple in the sense that it basically says “don’t to stupid shit”. But then it just becomes more subjective which in the end will be even less fair.
All the complexity in the law comes from the attempts to make it as fair and objective as possible.
Don’t have a society that gives all the power to people who have the most imaginary tokens. Don’t assign and apportion legal counsel according to money but instead according to need. Like, obviously I’m criticising capitalism, but your question assumes capitalism is here to stay.
Of course, under capitalism this will never happen, because the legislature is thoroughly captured by capital, and they are quite happy with lawyers being extremely expensive and siloed away in massive corporate legal teams.
Now of course none of what I am suggesting is going to be easy, quick, or absolute, which I mention just to head off the inevitable critcisms along those lines from people who find it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. As Ursula K le Guin said, “We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable – but then, so did the divine right of kings.”
but your question assumes capitalism is here to stay.
It does not. In my last sentence I specifically said “Even if you would make sure that money isn’t a barrier”, which rules out capitalism. So in a system where everyone has equal access to everything, you still only have a limited amount of skilled people with the right profession. If there are currently 1000 first-degree-murder cases where life sentences are on the line, and you only have 10 extremely good lawyers … 990 people will still end up worse than the 10 that had the luck (!!) to get these 10 good lawyers assigned.
I’m sorry, can you outline for me how you get to a world with 1000 first degree murder cases for every 10 competent lawyers? This isn’t mad max. If you want to raise an issue you need to explain why it’s a genuine problem anyone should care about.
As it is right now, lawyers are monopolised by the richest & most powerful. In a world where we don’t have enormous armies of corporate lawyers - who generally hate their jobs because they know they contribute nothing to society - we would have a lot more competent people available to do real jobs. Removing money from the equation helps both of these problems.
I didn’t say “competent”, I said “extremely good”. We have hundreds of thousands of competent lawyers. But the rich can typically afford to get the absolute best there are, not “just” competent. But over-the-top competent. Lawyers who don’t just handle this case as one of many, but who put private investigators and what-not on their pay roll to get everything they need to do the absolute best for their client. Who have, on top of their experience and resources also lots of connections.
Your description of “extremely good” boils down to “extremely well-funded”.
If you actually think that the most expensive lawyers and firms get results because they are just so “extremely good”, you’ve probably bought into another capitalist lie of meritocracy. This just sounds like you fantasising again about a world that would make you right if it existed, but it doesn’t.
Yes, as they had to give me the minimum sentence. By law they were right as the law only protected registered companies, unlike in Germany for example. The law was changed a few weeks later to include private persons and sole traders as protected lsps, not just companies, but they had to convict me. No choice in the end.
So, ISPs in Austria actually have legal protection from liability here, rightfully so, and also rightfully so, that protection was extended to private persons as well. A rare story of a legal system apparently working well, with regard to the marriage of privacy and technology.
The law was changed a few weeks later to include private persons and sole traders as protected lsps, not just companies, but they had to convict me. No choice in the end.
I am not sure I would consider this “working well”. It is the job of the court to determine if and how to apply law. Laws are never perfect and should be applied per intention, and not word-for-word. If the latter would even be possible, we wouldn’t need judges in the first place, because it would be a “simple” decision tree. But it’s not. And we have judges and the court processes for a reason.
If the law was amended a few weeks later, it shows, IMO, that the intention of the law was different than what was written down. Therefore the judge should have ruled that way by acknowledging that while the law does not exempt private individuals, its intention shows that it clearly should (simply because it doesn’t make much sense otherwise).
In other words: if the system really worked well, the judge would have sentenced (or rather not sentenced) within the intention of the law, and not within the strict writing.
(Worst case is that something like that gets escalated to the highest court who then either also accepts or overrules it.)
Yep given this is Austrian jurisprudence they should be able to apply Radbruch. Could it be overturned on appeal? Sure, but the judge also wouldn’t look stupid on appeal. German courts are using it in instances like conjuring a Romeo+Juliet exception out of thin air (in the “sex on your 14th birthday with your SO who is still 13” kind of sense), directly contradicting written law, saying “yep they overlooked that corner case”. Law didn’t even get updated as application of the formula is so uncontroversial.
In particular, this letter-of-law interpretation ignores equality before the law – that between natural and juridical persons. You need a proper reason to do such a thing. Quoth Radbruch:
Where there is not even an attempt at justice, where equality, which forms the core of justice, is deliberately betrayed in the laying down of positive law, then the statute is not even merely ‘flawed law’—rather, it lacks completely the very nature of law. For law, including positive law, cannot be otherwise defined than as a system and an institution whose very meaning is to serve justice.
Google search results are literally the only time I read Reddit content these days, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that regard. They’re going to lose so many views if they block their content on Google.
You aren’t alone. I stopped posting to Reddit in the protest and haven’t posted/voted since, but old threads are just too useful to completely block it out.
The thing is, though, my Reddit usage from Google Search hasn’t replaced what used to be my time browsing Reddit. I now exclusively use it for informational old threads via Google Search.
If before API terms changes I spent 7 hours a week on Reddit, and let’s say 5% of that was needing Google search results from Reddit specifically and the other 95% of usage was scrolling through my Reddit front page; I am not now spending 7 hours on Reddit via Google search. I’m now only using that 5% of 7 hours/week = 21 minutes/week on Reddit, and maybe even less considering my newfound aversion to the website.
And I suspect that most of the people who stopped using Reddit after the changes—whether by lapse or by principle—are not gonna come crawling back to it if Reddit chooses to sever that tenuous metaphoric link.
Same but the nihilist in me wants them to do it anyways. Better to rip the bandaid off in one go than to deal with jumping through hoops for several years until they ultimately remove it from Google search anyway. With a clean break, we can start rebuilding that trove of knowledge somewhere else and hopefully not all in one place again.
I'm guessing with the API dead it's the only way to find content on Reddit anymore, too. I can't imagine the Reddit searches that worked weren't using the API, and Reddit's search is a dumpster fire.
True, but Google search is such garbage now that it would suffer quite a bit from not being able to present Reddit threads to answer questions. So not sure who’d be worse off here
you should try using it. Seriously. I thought the same as you, “why are all these people plugging kagi so hard”. Well, I literally started using it 3 months ago and I’ve only used Google search 3 times since then and not a single one of those times did Google succeed at the search I needed either. Google was so fucking bad that I essentially was forced to make a change, and I’d tried DDG like 2 years ago and hated it, I tried Bing and hated it.
I fucking love not being tracked, not worrying about being the product. I can search what I want without fear of being watched. It’s fantastic. And it’s fucking better than Google. God, google has gotten so bad I literally had trouble doing my job some days. No more of that bullshit.
that’s awesome. Is the quality good? I’m really loving Kagi, but I love OSS stuff so might consider this. Maintenance is also an issue. I’m tired of maintaining things. I’ve got my own unraid server, pihole, etc and I’m not in the mood for adding more stuff.
What’s wrong with Google? I can honestly say I’ve never had issues. If you haven’t given it location privileges, that’s the only time I’ve seen it give crappy results
there was definitely a time where i got some results from google in a very ad-like manner, super fucking annoying: “you may like this…” and spamming different search terms, locations etc.
i haven’t seen it since, i figured they were A/B testing the design
It’s gotten really worse over the last year or so. They try to be overly “intelligent” by suggesting search phrases you didn’t even input, watering down the results.
I’m a web developer and when I google for “string”, I don’t want to get results for “yarn” to put in a fake extreme example. Rewording my search phrases is one of the worst features they ever introduced. I know what I’m looking for and I don’t need assistance with that.
Google even started ignoring operators sometimes. Back in the good old days you were able to put a word into quotations to tell the engine it must be included in the results. Now when I do this it only mostly works but when they run out of results they just go back to the default behaviour of including everything that might loosely fit the search phrase.
It feels like Google is afraid to show you no results, as if that was a crime or something.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Bing works so much better for me when I look up specific error messages etc.
For my development work, it works fine… haven’t had any issue (but i mainly do a lot of LUA / React). With bing though, a lot of links I got last I tested (a year or so ago) were literally dodgy websites
Bing (and therefore DuckDuckGo, which is what I generally use and is a wrapper around Bing) is definitely worse than Google especially for dev research, but it’s not as good as it used to be.
I do use Google for a lot of my dev research, and they seem to be losing the ongoing war against spamers flooding the internet with garbage content.
Websites like reddit (and beehaw) are somewhat of an oasis – actively moderated with absolute garbage content deleted straight away and questionable content at least has replies where people have pointing out if they think it’s wrong. If (when?) Reddit goes away, that’s a whole bunch of really good content that will suddenly disappear from google results, which will be sad.
PS: If you haven’t already, try buying a subscription to ChatGPT+ and use GPT4 as the first place you go for all your LUA/React questions. I find it gives far better answers than Google for most things. You can sort of dip your toes in the AI waters by trying Bing Chat… but it’s nowhere near as good for code as ChatGPT+.
Google can index other forums, like our own. Or stuff like Wikipedia. If Reddit doesn’t want to be indexed by external search engines, then they gotta build their own or be unsearchable. Their existing search system is abysmal.
Reddit becoming unsearchable would really damage their usability as a forum site.
You can say that even if Reddit’s value as a forum falls off, they kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they can still sell access to their existing forum archives for AI training, but those have been archived and are downloadable online, at least up until early in this year. I mean, there are gonna be companies running AIs trained on that in jurisdictions that Reddit cannot sue them in and don’t care about honoring US IP rights, like Russia.
The one thing Reddit is great for, and for which substitutes do not yet exist, is its crowdsourced information. Especially product reviews. And finding those from within Reddit is impossible because their search simply does not work.
Appending "Reddit" to a Google search remains the best first-past method for making certain kinds of decisions where you need concrete, good-quality answers. Even for that, it's a bit of a minefield. Especially post-mod-purge, a lot of the once-great enthusiast subs have gotten pretty blase. Still better than all those consumer advertorial "BEST OF 2024" lists that you find everywhere full of extremely mediocre and likely corrupt reviews, but nothing compared to the straightforward buying guides you used to find.
On top of that, the "new" sight is a million times less usable than old.reddit.com and search engines shoot you in through that terrifically terrible gateway to experience confusingly-organized and incomplete content. Orders of magnitude worse on mobile, too.
If Reddit is de-indexed, I'll simply never be there at this point. Though I admit, I'm already there extremely rarely.
Though I admit, I’m already there extremely rarely.
I always experience an onosecond after accidentally clicking on a Reddit thread in the search results. Followed by a short wave of disgust by the often mean/negative comments and pressing Mouse 4/Back.
Wait, I just realized I can block reddit.com completely in kagi. 10$/month nicely spent; begone thot!
Yeah, I’ve used one, but there is also sloowly accumulating bitrot there. It’s not getting any work done on it, and Reddit was pretty clear that they weren’t going to do more work on it.
Submissions of image collections have some bad link; they didn’t exist back when old.reddit.com was the norm.
www.reddit.com and old.reddit.com handle underscores in URLs pasted straight into Markdown and auto-linkified differently (one requires that they be backslash-escaped, the other that they not be backslash-escaped).
There’s some kind of inline image stuff in the new UI, IIRC, that doesn’t show up on old.reddit.com. I was surprised when I bipped over to the new UI and saw it.
You can hack a dark mode in in various ways, but it’s normally a light theme.
Not really specific to just the old Web UI, but third-party client issue is a factor for phone users. Reddit’s web UI on mobile isn’t fantastic. old.reddit.com is okay for desktop use, but it’s not really a great solution for phones.
Still better than all those consumer advertorial “BEST OF 2024” lists that you find everywhere full of extremely mediocre and likely corrupt reviews, but nothing compared to the straightforward buying guides you used to find.
The SEO spam that I find that Google is absolutely unable to filter out is all the AI-generated sites. They generally have a page with a long list of questions and poorly-generated answers.
It don’t know if it’s one company doing it at mass scale or if there are hordes of copycats, but it swamps Google search results these days.
Pretty sure most of those are not AI generated (yet…).
They pay humans $2 an hour to write a paragraph ten different ways, then mix those with other paragraphs written by other people to create huge “content farms” of sites full of ads.
And they are deliberately shit - because they depend on visitors giving up and deciding to click an ad instead of whatever they came to the site for.
I haven’t used Japanese websites enough to be able to provide a comparison.
It definitely wasn’t the situation for English-based websites five years back. It was an issue at the beginning of this year. I don’t know where it really started.
The fact that they switched to a different algorithmic feed instead of reducing use time indicates that it’s a problem that needs legislation to address, since it will not be in any individual company’s interest to stop.
I found that back in the old days of Facebook (pre-enshitification, or at least full steam enshitification) I could log in, catch up on what all my distant relatives and friends were up to, leave some comments, maybe post something myself, and log out in around 10-15 minutes max. Then they started “improving” things, and suddenly there was “engaging” content, and it took at least ½ an hour.
I think it makes sense that from Facebook’s perspective, a chronological feed is worse.
Having said that, some people post more than others, so I do appreciate using the Hot and Active sorts for Lemmy in addition to Top - Day. It’s a feature I miss from Mastodon. There is a headline bot that I like following, to catch the recent headlines, and the weather. Problem is that something like ¼ of my feed can just be the bot, and yesterday’s headlines aren’t news anymore, I’m more interested in the ongoing discussion. So I do appreciate the non-chronological sorts, when they make things better for me, and not a corporation’s bottom line.
Yep, I basically stopped using Facebook when it changed away from that. It also changed in other ways, in that people would be posting about politics and memes instead of just life updates and holiday pictures.
yep note that it didn’t measure addiction or how much screen time in a day or anything, the only metric is “more is better”, which ask anyone and they’ll say it’s the opposite
The exit didn't start with the API announcement, just gained steam. What's truly baffling is that Reddit seems to want data on where users' final straw is.
Ironically, if Reddit has been up front and said they were killing third party apps, and kept their mouths shut they would have faired better. For a stupid play like this, speaking only makes it worse. This is going to be taught in business school on how to kill a business.
Either way, I'd be preferring alternatives. On desktop, old.reddit.com plus RES (which is not entirely clear if they will be effected, though it looks like it will not be), but the mobile experience is not good on a mobile browser and I really don't like the official app. Without RiF, I would not be participating much even without a direct alternative.
I don't usually fault companies for messing up if they own up to their mistakes and make it right. Everyone is going to make mistakes and things will go wrong at times. It's how a company handles events when everything goes sideways that shows whether they are good or bad.
In Reddit's case, they could have acknowledged that their API plans were too aggressive and overpriced. They could have paused any API pricing changes and worked with third party developers to come to a solution where Reddit is paid, but third party developers don't have to shut down due to immediate and insanely high costs being demanded. Everyone could have walked away benefiting and Reddit's reputation (in my eyes) would have been intact. I'd likely be posting there right now instead of here on Lemmy.
Instead, Reddit decided to double and triple down. Their CEO decided to accuse the developer of Apollo of threatening Reddit and, when phone call audio proved this was a lie, blamed the developer for "leaking personal phone calls." Then, that same CEO claimed that the API was never meant for third party apps (ignoring and trying to rewrite history) and said that any moderators who kept their subreddits blacked out would be replaced. All while claiming that the moderators should rest easy because Reddit would definitely provide tool themselves to replace lost third party tools despite no sign of this happening and trust being totally shattered. (And so much more that I'm not including because this comment is too long already.)
So Reddit messing up? That could have been forgiven had they done the right thing afterwards. But now, after completely botching the response? I hope Reddit withers away to nothing and the CEO's IPO dreams die on the vine.
They don’t “hate” chronological feeds. The study say they are more likely to disengage, and that’s probably because people got what they need from the chronological feed and log off to do other things…
Why would you “get what you need” quicker with a chronological feed? The more engaged with content is what most people are going to the site for, it’s like browsing Lemmy on top vs new, and frankly new is mostly crap.
What I want is to see the new posts of my network. With chronological, I know when I see a previously seen post, that I’m done. With algorithmic, I’m scrolling past tons of posts I’ve seen before, hoping to find a new one every once in a while. And I never know when I’m done, so I frustratingly close the app after a longer time.
When I look at my subscriptions, I sort by new because it lets me see what I want quicker. Top is filled with old things so I almost never use it. Hot is what I use if not restricting to just subs. Once I'm done looking at what's new, I'm done. No wasting time on stuff I've seen before.
Before everyone gets their pitchforks out - Person from the image posted on Hacker News, CEO replied and said this charge shouldn’t have happened and they wouldn’t be charging the client anything.
CEO said that forgiving bills for this kind of a thing is a standard practice, but how come this was the customer support’s first reaction:
We normally discount these kinds of attacks to about 20% of the cost, which would make your new bill $20,900. I’ve currently reduced it to about 5%, which is $5,225.
If the customer support has authority to give 20%/5% discounts, this seems to me like the standard practice, and the CEO is probably just doing damage control because this became public.
When I worked in customer service I think the largest i was ever able to issue was a 10% discount. Even with managerial approval I don’t think I ever saw anyone get more than a 25% discount, and that was for legitimate complaints, not the Karen style made up whining.
Yeah that’s is an attack on Netlify and not on him. It’s them that should have protections against this. I argue that the customer can’t even effectively defend against this themselves if they’re using Netlify, which is turn means a court would likely get them off the hook for anything that can easily be classified as a DDOS attack.
Hm yes and no. The user might have angered someone with their website and it might well have been targeted to them instead of Netlify as a whole? I can imagine them using that point in a court if that was the case.
If I were to host on such a service I’d probably put cloudflare in front. Especially as it seems to be static content. But I wouldn’t host on a service with unlimited pricing anyway. I’d much rather see my hobby site go down than to have world-class uptime and pay 100k :P
The user might have angered someone with their website and it might well have been targeted to them instead of Netlify as a whole? I can imagine them using that point in a court if that was the case.
They wouldn’t really get anywhere with that claim though, even if it were true and they could find evidence, because the company claims that they actively scan for and protect against this sort of thing, and even they admit that it was a DDoS attack.
But how do you go from 10GB monthly to 190TB without it raising any flags? Apparently their site had been up for 4 years and suddenly the usage spikes by nearly 2 million percent, and nobody thinks to check up on why, or to notify the user that they’re using an extreme amount of data, way beyond what they usually do.
Hell even AWS isn’t this bad. You can go in and set the maximum data you’re prepared to allow and then it’ll simply just block any connection attempt after that point and send you an alert.
You just have to be aware that you might need to keep an eye on things and be ready to increase bandwidth occasionally in case of something like Black Friday, assuming that kind of thing is relevant to your site.
Been saying it for a while, but his plan was to run it into the ground all along. Who is he buddy-buddy with in public? The Saudi’s and the Russians, who both have an interest in seeing Twitter burn to the ground. He started by laying off people, not paying their bills, and making stupid brand decisions. This has been the plan all along and there’s really no other logical explanation. 44 billion is nothing to the Saudis and Russian oligarchs if it takes away a key tool for organized dissent and the spread of western ideals.
Don't give him too much credit. Elon is transparently too terminally online to be destroying Twitter because that's his goal. He didn't even actually mean to buy it until he was forced to.
Pay 54 billion dollars to utterly destroy a platform which gave normal people the ability to effectively spread information about the wrongdoing of the upper class, and which often promoted that very information.
That’s why he did this, he knows it’s killing g Twitter and wants it dead.
You don’t buy a company for their servers or employees, those can be found elsewhere for the same price. You buy a company for its users and its brand. To throw away one of the most icon brands in the world, which is present in the footer of every major website in the world, is baffling.
At this point it’s foolish not to consider this as possibly the greatest tax writeoff in history. Elmo is setting himself up to never pay another dime in taxes the rest of his life. Not that he probably pays that much as it stands, but still.
You don’t buy a company for their servers or employees
Clearly he didn't buy it for that either, since he chucked those out the window shortly after purchase. Pretty sure he spent billions of dollars to shitpost and create a safe space for nazis.
He bought it to destroy it for his Saudi backers. Billionaires like Musk and the Saudis make more money with Republicans in charge. Twitter and Reddit were too good at educating voters that would keep Republicans out of power, and hold murderous Saudi princes accountable, so they had to be destroyed.
I don’t think that was his goal, but it was probably why the Saudis were so eager to loan him the funds to buy it. This reminds me of a time I was talking to a climate-denying friend who cited something about NY using “methane causes global warming” to push anti-small farm bills on the basis that they had cattle (or something, I can’t remember exactly). The point being, sometimes it’s not a grand orchestrated conspiracy (eg “global warming is fake”) but rather malicious, opportunistic actors taking whatever advantages they can get. Billionaires don’t cause recessions on purpose, but their wealth certainly does increase during them anyway because of how the system has evolved to optimize for wealth consolidation through the independent actions of the capitalist class, and they’re not hurting enough to want to change it for the better.
Not only wacky but hideous? I mean if you are going to re-logo (forget that it be for idiotic reasons…) the least you could do is make the design look decent… this?? 😂
You can do that, and companies like Google have been doing it for years. The difference is that those companies are small teams of engineers, working on niche applications, that the big company wants to incorporate into them.
He realized pretty fast that he offered WAY too much money for Twitter. Like, we’re0 seeing maybe 5x what it was really worth at the time. But, because he did everything out in public like the narcissist he is, he knew there was no way he was getting out of the sale in court.
So he got as much of the cash from banks and other investors as possible. An amount of debt that could ruin someone with even his net worth. Now he’s driving their investment into to the ground so the banks will end up writing off most of the debt rather than asking for repayment. So far, it seems to be working.
Lenders are not as stupid as you think. 75% of Twitter’s purchase price was paid by Musk himself or loans secured against his Tesla stock. None of that will be “written off”.
The number I’ve seen it closer to 55% but, regardless, all the Tesla money was acquired exactly the same way and will be written off the same way too.
Tesla has positioned itself as a tech company instead of a car company, and if its investors decide one day that it’s a car company it’s value will drop 60 - 80% overnight. Of course the investors will never do that because 1) it will leave a lot of them in ruin and 2) the gigafactories for batteries are probably actually valued pretty accurately. But remember ever time Telsa talks about robots or super computers they’re trying to make everyone forget that their valuation multiples should be closer to Ford than Apple.
Tesla owns a huge and successful charging network, and most EV makers in the US are switching to Tesla charging ports in order to take advantage of it. In the process, this will make the smaller charging networks (like EA) even more irrelevant.
If Ford happened to own all the gas stations in America, you’d have an idea of what Tesla is about to become. There’s a good reason why Tesla stock is priced so high.
Ford used to own gas stations. They didn’t totally leave the business until the 70’s gas shortages, though they had been in decline since the 30s. History does tend to repeat itself, and there’s nothing proprietary about electricity (there are adapters to go from one plug type to another). The US switch to using NACS has just started in the last couple months and will not be seen in most of the rest of the world, since Europe and much of Asia codified standards like CCS into law while Tesla was still trying to keep their tech private.
Smart money says Tesla will spin off the charging network (and solar stuff) into independent entities due to stagnate markets during the next recession and then devest entirely after their next major stock slump.
Ford never dominated the US market for gas stations like Tesla does for chargers. Even if Tesla never builds another charger outside the US, it can thrive by dominating the US market alone. And the experience of EA and others demonstrates that it’s not so easy to set up a competing network.
Of course Tesla might spin off its charging business, but that won’t worry investors. It just means that your Tesla share would turn into a share of TeslaCars plus a share if TeslaChargers.
I hope the cash he got from banks is backed by his stocks in Tesla. But what do I know, look what happened to Silicon Valley Bank. Banks aren’t smarter in investing than the rest of us apparently.
Now he’s driving their investment into to the ground so the banks will end up writing off most of the debt rather than asking for repayment. So far, it seems to be working.
Maybe I’m financially illiterate, but I don’t understand how that works. Like… if I take out a loan to buy a house and then deliberately burn down the house, that doesn’t get me off the hook. If anything, I’ll probably end up going to prison to boot. Why exactly would the banks just write off Musk’s debt instead of going after him and his other assets in court?
Most of the money in the world economy is known as “Book Money.” It exists only because an investor somewhere decided it did and invested based on that number. When a bank or investor stops thinking it’s worth that much one of the things they can do is a Write Down. The money (which never really existed anyway) ceases to exist, the banks books (and possibly their rating as a lender) are affected, the investee should become considered a bad investment, and the money is deleted from the world. But there are no other real consequences unless the investor or investee destroys enough of their wealth that they become insolvent.
You bought your house with earned money. Real money. It can’t just be erased in the same way because you played by the rules the whole time.
which is present in the footer of every major website in the world
OMG, I just realize that the little blue bird will be replaced with an X everywhere. A generic looking, forgettable X.
I also realize that instead of saying "follow me on Twitter" or "I'm on Twitter," people will say "follow me on X" and "I'm on X," which sounds like you're talking about Ecstacy or Molly. Very 1990s club kid. (He's Gen X so I'm sure he's well aware of how this sounds.)
I am seldom a conspiracy theorist but I am really starting to think that he is deliberately trying to destroy Twitter, I mean X.
I don’t think so, his “X” idea has been around for a long time, he really thinks it’s his next big idea. I’m sure people have raised all of these concerns with him, but I doubt he’s listening. Tesla, SpaceX, etc. are ideas that he bought, this one is his baby. I don’t think he’s open to ideas or criticisms on it.
Speaking of SpaceX, makes me wonder why he doesn’t just brand everything <name>X, eg TwitterX. Keep the X theme but don’t water down the brand. Then, if he hits the jackpot and becomes a multi-industry monopoly he can rebrand everything to just X.
He bought the company to bootstrap his idea of his “X” app which he envisions becoming something like WeChat for the world outside of China.
I think it’s a terrible idea that’s a solution in search of s problem. WeChat works in China because the government literally enforces it’s usage. The rest of the world isn’t interested in a one-stop-shop for anything and everything.
It’s the problem of trying to be everything for everyone. You end up with mediocre or bad solutions for many problems instead of great solutions for a couple of problems. It works when there’s no competition, see WeChat, but when there is competition that competition is going to beat you at their game because you’re too busy playing a dozen others.
The rest of the world isn’t interested in a one-stop-shop for anything and everything.
I’m not entirely sure this is true. Look at the constant posts and commenting on how people hate to deal with the complication of additional apps / sites. It’s a major negative of the fediverse, it’s one reason I think Signal shot themselves in the foot getting rid of SMS. It’s why people keep using Amazon or Netflix even as they get worse and worse and more expensive. Heck, I’m not even immune - I wish we had one fast and cheap way to transfer money rather than Zelle, Paypal, various bank schemes, venmo and on and on. I wish we had a universal shopping cart thing like Paypal checkout more widely adopted vs making ever more accounts and typing in all my details for a one time order from a different website (and this is one reason why people gravitate to Amazon vs individual sites).
I’m not saying I’d like an all in one app, but I can see it potentially being interesting to people if it simplified their lives. I don’t think Musk and X are likely to be able to do it, but I don’t actually think there’s no interest.
It’s funny if that’s his endgame, since Meta is already closer to that achievement than he is, and their Twitter alternative exploded in popularity immediately thanks to Musk’s own incompetence.
These are all great. I use Librewolf and Mull on the regular. That said, I doubt any of these would be able to take up the mantle that Mozilla holds. The amount of resources and manpower needed to maintain and produce a modern browser that isn’t a fork is immense.
Not to knock the devs who maintain these forks, but my guess is the majority of the work comes down to the devs at Mozilla. And if they fall, it’s likely these forks will as well, or at least will become an out of date mess.
I’ve started using Ansible to apply windows settings and manage packages because of this. It’s a bit of work to setup the playbooks but I just run it occasionally on my windows hosts to keep Microsoft from reverting settings or reinstalling junk.
I’ve been a lifelong windows user (well and DOS and whatever cartridge I used with the C64/C128) but I think it’s just time to uninstall the OS instead.
Weird, I switched my daily driver in December 2022 over to Mint (likewise I’ve been using Linux for various things since '08, so not a noob) and it’s been pretty damn solid since then, including upgrades from Mint 20 to 21 and all of the Mint 21 point releases.
I admit that Mint is the distro I got the furthest with, several weeks in I just stopped being able to do full screen 3d. I spent a month and a half on forums trying to figure it out including 2 clean installs and couldn’t get anywhere.
I even did board level diagnostics on my video card.
Just gave up and went back to windows, never had an issue there and still don’t.
I’ll use linux for remote servers or fun little house gadgets, but as much as I hate windows, (and I hate windows with the seething glowing magma aged bitterness of someone who has had to support it since WIndows 3.11.
I would LOVE to ditch it, especially now, but until I can get a clean install to doing what I need to do in under a day, I can’t advocate linux.
i’ve already rendered my verdict here—which was i banned the other person for a bit and not you (even though you both said things which run afoul of our rules) because you’re a member of our instance and we can afford to be more patient and understanding with you accordingly. but to be clear: if you respond in this manner even to very light moderator feedback then for moderation purposes you’ll be held to outsider standards going forward. which is to say, you’re not going to get anywhere near the benefit of the doubt or the lenience when you break rules.
Well I appreciate that but it doesn’t really do anything to reduce my general anti-authoritarian streak.
That being said you have already proven yourself saner than 99.5% of reddit admins and is a bit of a relief considering the treatment I got at lemmy.world.
One thing though: Criticism of admins should never be considered a rule breaking event provided it is not derogative or endangering, and if my reply to you is considered a reason for admin action then I need to reconsider my participation in beehaw as well.
One thing though: Criticism of admins should never be considered a rule breaking event provided it is not derogative or endangering, and if my reply to you is considered a reason for admin action then I need to reconsider my participation in beehaw as well.
just to be clear the issue here is/was not you critiquing me–i don’t care about that particularly, comes with the job–it’s the tone which seemed like it implied being held to any moderation standard was problematic. because they tend to cause a scene about how they’re being censored we’re not super interested in having people in that category on here, and so whenever someone responds in that way it’s a red flag
which seemed like it implied being held to any moderation standard was problematic.
I think that’s more of your interpretation than my intention.
In nearly 3 and a half decades of heavy internet use, admin and mod messages in general are more annoyance than value and I find that my experience is better just filtering them all out. I know that probably applies less here than in most other forums I’ve participated and probably sounds like I’m being personally hostile.
I’m sincerely not, you seem like a pleasant and well written person and we probably align in a lot of our ideals.
But I’d still block you if I had the opportunity, again because of your role, not your person. Keep in mind Lemmy’s blocking doesn’t prevent you replying like reddit’s did so there really should be no implications in me wanting to block admin replies. You can still illustrate to the community what my rules failure is and I can be mercifully free of arbitrary justifications.
Even though I do not have experience at such a large scope, I understand being a mod/admin isn’t easy, I co-modded /r/talesfromtamriel for a few years and even as a niche sub with a positive community, it was still a task to handle all the spam and harassment.
So I want you to know I value your effort and have been very much doing my best to be a contributive member of this instance as I was on early reddit, but I want to make this very clear: I would still block you, and every admin and mod on the instance if I could. And I have that sentiment for every single forum I have been on since AOL chatroom days.
To be clear, the only site I have ever been banned from in my entire time on the internet has been reddit for saying ‘Punching nazis is a moral good’. I am not a rabble rouser or deliberate antagonist (with the exception of auto antagonism towards white nationalists and I will gladly take any ban you want to give me for shouting down nazis) and truly value the good online communities I participate in.
And I like beehaw, and most of the people I’ve spoken to here are quality posters. This feels a lot like old reddit for the most part. I want to be a longtime member and contributed tens of thousands of words a week.
But I don’t really want to see anything from any mod or admin because if it’s positive, fine I don’t need to be aware of it. If it’s negative, then I will find out the results organically. Again I know this will feel like a personal attack but it really isn’t: I am better off not knowing what those roles type because in nearly every circumstance there is an implicit or explicit misuse of authority that will piss me off to no end and cause me to reply in ways that seem to only antagonize the situation.
And you will say ‘But here, we are different. We moderate with a light touch and only when necessary’.
And I have heard that so many, many times before and I can count the number of times that has been true on one hand of a clumsy woodshop teacher.
And you may be correct, and frankly this place has the BEST chance I’ve seen of being true to that maxim, and I am thankful that this place exists because of it.
And I know moderation is necessary, there are truly rancid and destructive people out there that need to have their posts removed, and accounts banned for the betterment of the community.
And I know it is a thankless, no-pay job that exposes you to the worst the internet has to offer (and that is saying something).
That said. I’d still block you if I could. I don’t mean that personally, it just works out better in the long run.
One thing though: Criticism of admins should never be considered a rule breaking event provided it is not derogative or endangering, and if my reply to you is considered a reason for admin action then I need to reconsider my participation in beehaw as well.
Wanting to block an admin isn’t criticism. You’re free to criticize us, and in fact, encouraged to do so if we are warranting criticism. If you were able to block us, we wouldn’t be able to tell you when you are breaking the rules or provide feedback based on reports of your comments. We can’t run a space like this without giving this kind of feedback to members, and just like what happened in this case, we try to give this feedback before jumping to moderator actions like banning.
If you were able to block us, we wouldn’t be able to tell you when you are breaking the rules or provide feedback based on reports of your comments.
Summarizing my other post below:
I have been online since the late eighties and participated actively in hundreds of forums.
And in all that time, the number of meaningful mod/admin replies as compared to just blatant abuses of power, arbitrary justifications, and self-gratifying pontifications has been so vanishingly low that I find in all circumstances it is better to be unaware of their posts.
Same goes for appeals or feedback. Vanishingly small numbers of actual circumstance changing interactions as compared to countless arbitrary justifications, concern trolling, and outright propaganda.
I know you are thinking ‘But here at Beehaw we are different’. And you may indeed be.
But in my experiences, in the long run, the chance of this being true approaches zero. This universal for nearly every online forum. The only place I have seen avoid that in the long term is somethingawful and that’s because they charge for accounts. For free account forums the tendency will always be towards enshittification.
If my natural communication method, which I have taken decades to refine and improve, breaks the rules of a forum in such a way as I am to be banned, then I really have no business being in that forum to begin with and whatever justification the mod picked out of a hat for my banning is kind of meaningless to me.
I am not needlessly acerbic, I do not pick fights, but I do respond harshly to hostile replies as noted above.
And of course most mods will just remove of ban both participants, ignoring who the aggressor is because that is the nature of hierarchy to be radically out of touch with those they have been privileged to administer over. I am fully aware of how protected bullies are in this world and really don’t want to waste any energy reading about an authoritarian’s opinion on my method of discourse.
Let me be clear: The ONLY site I have ever been banned from was reddit for posting ‘Punching nazis is a moral good’, and please tell me now if this is a violation here and I will just delete my account and leave.
Me blocking an admin does nothing to degrade the experience of others, and serves to greatly enhance my own.
Let me be clear: The ONLY site I have ever been banned from was reddit for posting ‘Punching nazis is a moral good’, and please tell me now if this is a violation here and I will just delete my account and leave.
Punching nazis is most definitely a moral good. We’ve outlined this (intolerance towards the intolerant) in our docs.
That’s hilarious. I was a full time IT admin earlier in my career and still have run Linux full time for well over a decade now. For anything proprietary, i have a qemu image.
Of course, now I’m a DevOps admin so I get play with linux all day, for $$$! Hundreds of servers of all distros! Ubuntu, Cent, RHEL, Alpine containers… My big task this year is to get off Docker/Mesos and into OCI/Kubernettes. It’s going to be an incredible project.
I have tried to switch my daily driver to linux for more than 15 years now, Linux desktop just isn’t ready.
Something isn’t adding up here. I switched to mostly Linux around 2003. By 2005 it was all Linux unless I got paid for it. My wife has been only Linux since then and she doesn’t really know how to use a computer and doesn’t want to. Linux just works for her.
I do all my work from a Linux desktop and two Linux laptops. Well and a Steamdeck I use as a desktop when traveling. I remote into windows machines when I am using windows for jobs. Sometimes desktops, sometimes Azure virtual desktops, but my local client is always Linux.
I have an MSDN, I admin Azure instances, SQL servers, Windows Servers, and work on Windows desktops. Over the last two to three years it has been the windows machines that are the most annoying and troublesome. Linux is just easy and just works.
The Linux desktop is ready. Has been ready. Something is going on with your situation. Could be breaking old habits, could be hardware. I don’t know. But saying Linux is to blame here is ridiculous.
You think it’s impossible that Windows, an operating system with whole teams of people paid well to work on design and UX could be easier to use than Linux desktop which is primarily people working in their spare time?
Did I say that? I said windows has caused me more issues lately. I was replying that Linux desktop is fine. It works. Has worked for a very long time.
But since you brought it up… No. I do not think Windows is an easier desktop to use. Depends on familiarity and what you want to do with it. They can’t get single click right. They can’t get multiple desktops right. They certainly do not have activities. If you are using a Gnome workflow, windows seems almost insane in comparison. Don’t get me started on the ads and what this whole discussion started about with Edge trying to push itself into your way. And how about that registry system? So intuitive and useful right?
Habits and hardware are definitely the big ones to overcome. I still remember how absolutely lost I felt the first couple times I tried installing slackware in the 90s. I could install/set up windows in my sleep. But then slackware dropped to an unfamiliar command prompt, I can’t dir, there isn’t even a C drive, and now I’m expected to configure something called xfree86. Luckily I wasn’t told to use vi or I’d be stuck there to this day.
New users aren’t thrown into the deep end quite like that anymore, but it’s still a big change for a windows power user. So much of what you learned is not applicable or just the wrong way to do things. Mac users and Windows non-power-users seem to have a much easier time accepting the changes.
It’s definitely not for everyone (is any OS?) but it’s been ‘ready’ as a desktop OS for me since Mandrake 8 in ~2001. That’s about when I ditched windows 2000 and haven’t looked back.
Depends on your needs. For a lot of users, I think the current Linux desktop experience is sufficient. If you have more specific needs, I can see why you’d stick with Windows.
It’s not just that, I had unending problems when I tried last and most of the help I received online was incredibly combative (“you shouldn’t want to do that”) or just asking me to switch distro and start again, of course the distro recommended was different each time
Which distro did you try last time? Just for future reference.
I’ve installed Linux mint for a family member on a netbook back in 2008, and it worked splendid ootb. At least for surfing the web, watching streams and movies and playing Solitaire or something. But can’t expect too much from a netbook.
Mint. Had problems with device drivers, with things I used for my job not having proper software support. With having to edit config based on a dream and a whole lot of guesswork just to make some peripherals work. Being told that a config setting I use on windows need not exist on Linux because I can just buy different hardware…
For what it’s worth, I’ve found that windows and mac forums have similar issues if you approach them as an outsider.
I feel similar frustration when faced with trying to accomplish things on those OSes. Mac forums in particular are terrible about “you shouldn’t want to do that”.
It doesn’t solve your problem, just wanted to share that I’ve experienced it from the other side.
Alternatively, buy or 🏴☠️KMSpico🏴☠️ yourself a pro license, and use group policy so it’s one and done. Microsoft has built in tools for almost all of this that don’t get rolled over by updates.
Getting tired of people claiming that it’s impossible to decrap Windows.
Obtuse? Sure! Features that shouldn’t be hidden behind an upgraded license? Hell fucking yes!
Impossible? Fuck no, hell no.
Learning basic Windows admin stuff, especially just the debloating/configuration things, is comparable in difficulty to switching to Linux.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Linux and less reliance on Microsoft is awesome, but 90% of complaints about Windows come from people who don’t know how to configure it, how to use the tools Microsoft offers to decrap it, and how to make it work for them. They’ll hit similar problems with most Linux distros as soon as you go deeper than basic “office suite and web browser” usage.
If you’ve got a few windows machines on your network and some sysadmin skills, you can run a Zentyal server to set up the GPOs. Syncs across your machines, and you can add a new one at any time that will also get de-shittified instantly.
As a gentoo user, I’m always confused when people think gentoo is about multi-day compiles. Rebuilding the whole system takes a few hours (not that I ever need to do that), and binary packages are available for the big stuff if you want it. It’s basically just arch with more configuration options.
Not insisting you or anyone should run it, but it’s not as ridiculous as people seem to think.
I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just saying I shouldn’t have to decrap a piece of software I actually paid for. Over and over. Also, whenever they introduce some new crap it usually comes with new GPOs that also have to be enabled to remove it again. It’s like whack-a-mole.
Obtuse? Sure! Features that shouldn’t be hidden behind an upgraded license? Hell fucking yes!
This is what I was saying really. This crap should never have been there in the first place as it’s consumer-hostile.
Impossible? Fuck no, hell no.
I never said this :) I said it was annoying having to do it every time. Yeah I have pro. And I know what GPOs are. But really, you can’t expect an average consumer to do this. Also, it’s less work to just change things back manually every time than to figure all the GPOs needed. It’s really just super annoying that it happens in the first place. I expect software I buy to be made to help me, not work against me.
And I never mentioned Linux in my post even though I use it myself. I know this is not a suitable alternative for the majority.
you should use MAS instead of Pico massgrave.dev
also, gpos are just templates for the registry, you can just look them up and apply manually (ehich is actually faster than finding anything in the official gpo editor), unless you’re a sysadmin and managing a whole fleet of machines (this is what gpo editor was actually made for) there’s no real need for it.
this is borked in win11, and got borked in win10 a month ago.
my secondary win10 machine that had been edge-free for at least 4 years, just got edge back and since it was also disabled by policy, throws an error on every boot, since apparently that piece of crap tries to autostart for whatever reason (even if autostart option is disabled, it just starts in background, does something and closes a few minutes later)
ie- when people stop spending billions on iphones that don’t use standardized hardware… Then, perhaps Apple will stop being anti-competitive assholes.
Right now, they can get away with being anti-competitive assholes, because everyone keeps buying their products.
Money speaks.
Just watch- apple will indeed release a phone that has a USB-Type C port. Then, disable data transfer to any non-apple certified USB cord, due to “security concerns” or “fire hazards”
It’s not so simple. If my parents stopped buying iPhones, they would need to replace their watches, their TV streaming device, their car chargers, and all their apps. You can’t expect normal people to collectively switch from an ecosystem designed around lock-in.
if your streaming device requires you to have a certain type of phone to use, you should replace it regardless. Roku/AndroidTV/etc… They don’t care WHAT type of device you try to stream media from. Have an IPhone? Sure. Android? No problem. Blackberry? That might not work.
their car chargers
Wait until you realize any 5$ charging cord from the corner store can charge your phone, and connect it to your car!
all their apps
Most of those work just fine on android. Just swapped my Dad’s phone from apple to android a few months ago, and was able to find all of his apps without any issues.
It literally does not, as evidenced by the state of chargers in the 2000s and early 2010s, before the EU threatened to regulate if phone companies didn’t get their shit together. Back then you’d have a different charger design for virtually every phone, including new models of the same phone. USB only became ubiquitous because the EU told companies to stop fucking around and legislate themselves, or the EU would make formal legislation. Most companies got the memo, but Apple decided to be cunts for long enough that the EU decided they needed to finally step in.
Consumer-based regulation being the end-all is based off the classical- and neoliberal ideas that humans are rational actors and companies have a greater incentive to compete than to collude. Both of which are lies.
the classical- and neoliberal ideas that humans are rational actors
Be very careful with this, because this is also the very foundation of democracy. If we start saying humans can’t decide for themselves over insignificant phone charger, how could we trust them selecting the people who has much more power than that?
That’s actually the opposite of the foundation of democracy. Democracy spreads the power out through as many people as possible in order to lessen the potential for abuse by any individual actor. Electing representatives who have near unlimited power and no recourse for constituents isn’t democracy, its oligarchy.
Democracy spreads the power out through as many people as possible in order to lessen the potential for abuse by any individual actor
Well, that’s not our democracies work. We don’t let people vote every law by referendum, that would be spreading power as much as possible.
In ancient Athens it was common, as was common for judiciary decision to be made by 3-4 hundreds people drawn at random. But that’s something almost universally considered stupid now, we have a judge, who we consider an “expert” in law.
By your definition, we don’t live in a democracy, on the contrary, democracy is extinct on this planet
There are indeed democracies on the planet that work in a way that both allows the use of representation and maintains the power in the hands of the constituency by allowing easy recall processes and mandates that officials follow the will of their constituency. We just don’t have them in liberal democracy, which was created, in part, to specifically guard against the possibility of majority rule, as mentioned in multiple of the Federalist papers, including but not limited to Federalist 9 and 10.
There’s nothing to be careful about, it’s absolutely true. Democracy isn’t flawless and is capable of leading to demagogues and reality-denying lunatics coming to power precisely because humans aren’t rational actors. But just because democracy isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it’s worse than the other systems we’ve come up with.
how could we trust them selecting the people who has much more power than that
Who else is there to trust but us humans?
humans can’t decide for themselves over insignificant phone charger
Individual humans don’t have the ability to choose their phone based on their preferred charger. Each purchase is made between one buyer with fairly limited funds and few large corporations with extensive funds.
between one buyer with fairly limited funds and few large corporations with extensive funds
Which is the same as saying that every vote is transferred between one voter, with very limited knowledge and political awareness and a few politicians with extensive power because politics is what they do their entire life.
Democracy is, in many practical sense, a market for votes. One which is way less regulated than the one for goods and services
The real test on this one is going to be in how well those regulations support the eventual transition from USB-C to something else.
There’s inevitably going to be a use case for new connectors that have some yet-unidentified advantage over USB-C for certain devices, and there’s going to be hurdles convincing regulators to grant exceptions for those devices or to adopt one of them as the new standard for everybody.
There’s plenty of examples of government regulations gone wrong trying to transition from an old technology to a new one. (i.e. the REAL ID format in the US, or the switch from analog to digital broadcast TV).
The regulation is worded to require whatever the USB-IF currently requires, which is what companies that adopted USB already follow. The concern here died before the ink on the law even dried.
We can indeed print steel with direct metal laser sintering. I think that the object needs heat treatment afterwards, though to be fair it is almost ten years since I properly read up on it and things have probably advanced since then
Seriously, how we make bridges now with giant CNC machines is so inefficient! And all these people saying we should print lots of blocks to put together are totally forgetting about Legos, we all just need to donate our old Legos to Baltimore and let kids from anywhere come volunteer to build it. Free bridge and free child labour! Everyone wins
Well no, you put a conveyor belt in front of all the 3d printers, and when each part is done, it’s dumped onto the conveyor belt, which leads all the pieces to an AI powered robot arm which assembles the bridge.
Yeah, I guess you could just run the conveyor belt and arm all the way to where the bridge needs to go.
I find it difficult to believe that breaking down steel to be 3d printed into large structures for a bridge is faster or more energy efficient than casting the parts instead.
Maybe, we could just print off rectangular prism-shaped modules, around the right size to fit in a hand, and then assemble them on site. We could even make them out of ordinary clay and fire them for strength. I wonder why nobody has thought of that. /s
3D printing has it’s place, but more conventional methods have theirs too. If you are counting on a lot of human labour anyway you might as well not reinvent the wheel.
And even then, the filament needed at this scale will take another several years, and a few days for shipping.
Also, it doesn’t do well in sunlight or high humidity for prolonged periods of time, so we’ll need maybe 20 to 30 years to work out a solution for that problem.
Certain arches or domes, maybe a lining for a tunnel. A tower if it’s not very windy. Really just all the stuff the Romans built, since that’s what they were working with, and their volcanic ash-based cement was somewhat weaker than modern cement.
It would be pretty hard to print between rebar. You’d need a crazy multi-axis head, and at that point it’s probably cheaper to just build a form. If they can achieve some significant strength with long fibers, which seems likely, you could spool that into the stream of concrete, but just concrete is already an actively researched problem. Printing one big form in foam or plastic and then filling it could be considered. The manual equivalent certainly makes a great building, especially in harsh climates where insulation is a concern.
Do you really think you could build a tower without tensile reinforcement? The hoop stress on the base of a cylindrical tower is no joke, especially when made from something as dense as concrete…
I will plead not a professional engineer on the one. The Tower of Pisa and it’s less leaning cousins are thing, although Wikipedia informs me they were actually medieval and made of joined masonry rather than cast concrete, despite appearances. That’s the main reason I brought it up.
Just cut up the model into a million smaller parts and post them on thingiverse so everyone on that site that already has a 3d printer can print one out and mail it to baltimore. EZ
As a European I'll never cease to find it mind blowing that it is normal for a Americans that the cost to them of damn near everything is more than the cost initially shown to them.
That’s still my favorite EU legislation. The price that is displayed must be equal (or higher, discounts are still allowed) to the price that you pay. Taxes, tips, fees, everything must be included in the price.
I get the “but different states sales taxes thing”, for national advert. However even then, just make them present example price
Get the new Moborola Bazer, only 549 dollars*
price example for Buffalo new York, including taxes and fees
Since if one is going with “well the final price you pay might not be what was advertised”, make it be more representative and real. Yeah the final price might be different sometimes even lower depending on your local taxes compared to the example prices calculation locations taxes.
Local advertising or on the shelf prices? There is no excuse, you are selling in that location. You know what the taxes and fees are just add them in. Any rare special discount and discrepancy cases, well the people eligible for those know to expect the difference.
It's actually only a few things. The vast majority of the goods we purchase are clearly priced. Most states (and some local jurisdictions like big cities) do have sales tax applied to purchases of non-essential goods, but those rates are generally much lower than the national sales taxes in most European countries.
I’m seeing it more and more. Little “processing fees” here and there, some tied to COVID, some tied to credit cards. There needs to be a clap-back against this behavior.
The number of places trying to suddenly add or expect an 18% tip or something infuriates me.
Like, why the fuck are you making me suddenly opt out of an 18% tip, Subway? What the fuck would that be for? And after your prices have gone up like 50% in 3 years already??
And I'm sure a bunch of morons pay it, which is why more and more places are pushing it.
How about a “convenience fee” for making an online payment. Why should I pay a fee to make the transaction more convenient for the company who no longer has to pay an employee to take the payment in person?
It’s not about having a sales tax applied to some or all goods or about how much that’d be. It’s about not listing the final price including the tax right until you’re supposed to pay for it. How dumb is that?
I love oregon, no sales tax so the listed price is the price. Now all these idiots moved here and are making changes as to why this place was nice. Like trying to implement a sales tax and getting rid of the urban growth boundary
Now we have to pump our own gas, it was nice having someone do it for ya... if they add a sales tax and create urban sprawl like LA or Phoenix I'll loose my mind...
Just responded above about the downside of all income being taxed at far higher rates than sales tax. That said, my god the amount of ink we spilled on the Ashland UGB.
My college roommate was from Washougal. He taught me the even finer art of retaining all deposit items in Seattle for my next visit, at which time I’d pop over the 5 bridge first and then show up with an empty car.
Which, in the case of Oregon, means income tax rivaling federal, and you’re paying that on rent. The money always comes from somewhere, and I despised it far more than I worried about coming up with $1.07 for a 99-cent burger.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with sales tax either (on non essential goods). I do have a problem with it not being included in the price shown on the product.
Sales tax is the most obvious example of adding to the cost I've been shown, but it's everything. Here if there is a price on something that is the price you pay. Period.
If I have €5 and the price on the shelf is €4.90 we are all good, and I don't even need to know what country I'm in!
But is is more than that, if I take my car in to be fixed, they have to agree every cost they want to charge me in advance at no point can anything cost me more than I expected and agreed to up front.
Airline tickets, theatre tickets, hospital bills, TV ads, you name it, the price they state or advertise is what I pay, no ifs-no buts.
You’re completely right to feel that way. As an American, it’s mind blowing to me, too. I really don’t like the fact that “hidden fees” have become normal.
The tax drives me crazy. The excuse for not displaying the total price after tax is because it’s different for each state. …yet the cash register seems to be able to handle that perfectly fine. So it can’t that hard to figure it out.
Edit: after a quick look into it, the main problem is tax in a lot of places is based on the Total amount sold, not on each item. So that could definitely be impossible to display before hand.
after a quick look into it, the main problem is tax in a lot of places is based on the Total amount sold, not on each item.
I’m actually confused, aren’t taxes a percentage? The sum of a percentage of all items should be the same as a percentage of the sum, no? Or is my brain not do math good? Can someone smarter than me explain?
The sum of a percentage of all items should be the same as a percentage of the sum, no?
Suppose you buy two items costing x and y, and there’s a constant sales tax of t (say 10%, or 0.1). You’d pay t * x + t * y, or t * (x + y). You can even generalize this to Σ(t * x) = t * Σx (for x ∈ X, where X is the set of prices you’re paying).
I think the issue they were bringing up though is that tax is not applied equally to all items, and that tax may be determined by number of items sold. I don’t actually know if this is true or not, but if it is, the distributive property doesn’t apply anymore. Edit: I re-read the comment, that doesn’t look like what they were saying actually. Either way, if tax is weird like this, distributive property may not apply anymore.
Say you list a table lamp on your website at $100, tax included. Well, if you sell that table lamp to a buyer in Connecticut (where the tax rate is a flat 6.35%) then you’re required to remit $6.35 in sales tax to the state of Connecticut on that transaction.
But if you sell the same table lamp to a buyer in Aberdeen, Washington, where the sales tax rate is 9.08%, then you’d be required to remit $9.08 in sales tax to the state of Washington.
As you can see, you are cutting into your profit margin by including tax in your pricing.
Further, US customers are accustomed to paying their local sales tax rates. We’re so accustomed to paying odd amounts in sales tax that paying a flat rate might surprise us or leave us a little confused.
This is anti-consumer bullshit nonsense. All they did was hid their only real “con” behind a wall of text. “As you can see, you are cutting into your profit margin by including sales tax”
And the last paragraph is fucking stupid too. People are too used to seeing numbers, so other numbers will confuse them!
I'm not aware of anywhere in the US where the tax is variable depending on total amount sold. Sometimes some things are excluded from sales tax. But that's per-item and not variable.
In the vast majority of the US there's no reason they can't just display the price with tax.
Granted, prices on consumer items are so fucking out of control retailers and etc just charge whatever the fuck they want and people are expected to pay it. They're gouging at 80%, 100%, 150% markups on food, clothing, services, etc versus 2 years ago and people seem to just accept it (tough not to when everyone is doing it)
Initially they got away with it because "COVID supply problems", which was frequently a lie or exaggeration. Now there's no excuse given typically; people quote "inflation" but that's a tiny fraction of it. It's just gouging companies have learned they can keep getting away with more and more.
Check out the article linked below. I’m interested in what you think after that. Especially with the states that forbid including tax in displayed prices (and why they don’t).
In Ontario Canada there is no provincial tax component on meals costing less than $4. This dates from the time you could get a simple lunch for < $4. Unfortunately it’s never been adjusted for inflation.
No reason not to show amount with tax and give people a pleasant surprise though
When I make price signs at work I make sure the price shows taxes and bottle deposits. I think my store is the only one to do that. I manage a liquor store
Tax in almost every single place I’ve ever been to in the United States is not nearly so complicated. State tax, occasional city/county tax, seldom restaurant tax are nearly always flat rates. It wouldn’t be difficult to incorporate those taxes applied for each individual item to their prices at all. Most places choose not to because it inflates the price on menus and price tags, and most people assume tax is not included in these prices.
The initial shock of charging more could convince patrons to go elsewhere if it’s not perfectly clear tax is included in the price.
Could your local Safeway put tax-inclusive prices in the circular? Sure, although there are actually laws that prohibit such local pricing (YMMV; I’ve lived in a lot of states) specifically so that people in the sticks aren’t shouldering the entire transportation bill to their IGA. This is why grocery circulars are regional, but that’s an aside. Still, different cities in the region will have different tax rates, so they can’t do tax-inclusive, and they certainly can’t have a different price on the shelf than in the circular, and here we are.
But these are small potatoes.
Now, can Tim Cook release a new iPhone and list the price in every municipality in the U.S. in the keynote? The patchwork of devolved taxing authority makes the U.S. a poor candidate for tax-inclusive pricing.
States universally abandoning income tax for VAT (ain’t never gonna happen, since VAT inconveniently hits even billionaires’ consumption [and even less likely would be pushing through VAT while retaining income tax]) could get things closer to what Europeans have come to expect, where each state would have a universal rate and consistently applied carveouts and then distribute that to lower tiers of government as some states currently do with sales tax, but the closest advertising could get to that would be “state VAT excluded,” at which point nothing has been fixed in terms of walking out the door paying the advertised price at the cost of unpopular economic upheaval.
It’s why the “Oh the Free Market will sort itself out” is such a bullshit claim.
My five year old who just got shot at the fifth school shooting this month is just gonna have to buckle down and be patient while I compare quality of service and cost of… the one hospital in town and… that one in the next county ever.
It’s funny because I’ve literally never seen a single person genuinely make that claim. Just people being mad about theoretical people making that claim. I’m sure they exist, they must with how many people claim to know someone that said it, but that line of logic doesn’t seem to be as common as people make it seem.
Republicans: “Free market!” Also republicans: “Buy American” “we need to ban Chinese companies from importing and selling goods in the u.s.” “Outsourcing labor is just smart business”
And on the free market isnt sorting itself out - the claim is usually that the gubment is still not letting the market be free enough. That's usually the claim, for example, from all the right-wingers I know for when they get cornered on why health care costs are 1000% ridiculous.
Stores can show out the door pricing of most products, they just won’t. It’s fairly common in the cannabis space because they don’t want to make change.
Variable taxes based on region. The rates don’t change within a single store, which is where all of the labels are printed. Just print the label with the tax added.
Right. Same excuse as the cable companies. They can clearly calculate the price easily when you get the bill. They can just as easily calculate it when showing you how much it costs.
It is. But the big plus is it's offline translation, without sending data through network (for privacy concerns and for quick operation). Edit: Oh, just got what you meant. The article title is not descriptive enough. I agree.
Purposefully not descriptive enough. People do it on the R site too even though there’s no real benefit or way to see that you’re getting people to click through.
I like it a lot. The fact that it translates entirely on my machine, without revealing to some corporation what I’m translating, is indeed a killer feature.
(Now if only we could link headlines that state the key information instead of baiting people into clicks.)
Yeah, my big corporation won’t let us use 3rd party big corporations for translations, only our own tool. I assume we know the kind of shit we use the data for, and assume others are just as bad.
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