I just need a little more time. There will likely be a technical break announced tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Along with the migration to new servers, we will be introducing new moderation tools that I am currently working on and testing (I had it planned for a bit later in my roadmap). Then, I will address your reports and handle them very seriously. I try my best to delete sensitive content, but with the current workload and ongoing relocation, it takes a lot of time. I am being extra cautious now. The regulations are quite general, and I would like to refine them together with you and do everything properly. For now, please make use of the option to block the magazine/author.
The regulations are quite general, and I would like to refine them together with you and do everything properly.
I have been wondering how instance-wide moderation will end up looking on kbin, once you've had a chance to get a team in place for that. While it is (I assume) a "generalist" instance, it's important to keep in mind that you can't please everyone. Trying to have too broad of an audience will just result in retaining those with a high tolerance for toxicity (usually highly toxic themselves), while everyone else leaves in favor of better-managed spaces.
Communities in general, and particularly on the internet, need to understand what their purpose is, and be proactive about filtering out those that are incompatible with that purpose. This doesn't mean judging those people as wrong, or "bad people", it just means recognizing that not everyone is going to get along, and that some level of group cohesion needs to be maintained.
Agreed, that's part of my problem with generalist instances. They're so broad that they serve multiple communities with differing expectations, and it forces admins to take sides.
I think there is value in having both generalist and specialized instances, and the big landing spots for new users should probably strive to be more generalist. As you point out though, there are limits to how broad of an audience one can practically cater to.
Multipile Things I noticed as a creater of this thread:
can I close comments ?
can I hide comments ?
can I pin a response?
can I quickly see from what server peope are interacting?
I am no coder but would love to support you with all the work that is done.
At least some of the costs can be taken of your shoulders:
All the things you mentioned are in the roadmap. However, we can either do it quickly and potentially encounter issues in a few weeks or months, or take a bit more time for a more thorough approach. I've decided to move away from playful prototyping. From now on, every change will be tested before it's approved for kbin.social - it's no longer just my code (https://lab2.kbin.pub/). I'd like to close this thread for you... but can we just agree not to respond in it anymore? ;p
I don't think closing threads is a great idea or in keeping with how this all works. I think it'd be nice to be able to mute a thread as an individual, but by its nature these discussions are open and shared with many instances. If we close it on kbin.social, other kbin instances, lemmy instances, and even places like mastodon and pixelfed could keep discussing, if I understand activity pub correctly.
In such important tasks, I would like to engage in community-driven development. When I start planning these tasks, I will come to you with my whiteboard and sketch out the individual stages. Together, we will look for the advantages and disadvantages of such a solution, the weak and strong points. This is to jointly make a decision on whether the change makes sense on kbin.social but also in the perspective of the entire federation. It can be a great fun ;)
Let's all agree that of its many issues, locking/deleting open threats to targeted minority groups and pro supremacist propaganda meant to hurt or influence vulnerable people was NOT a drawback of the Reddit experience.
Yes, it's a difficult thing to enforce a subjective line of a basic standard of decency, but it's also what a society is and one of the main reasons we gather as people. The quality of a group is shown in how they accommodate the weakest and most vulnerable among them.
If we aren't prioritizing a way to send this CHUD and people liked them to the hypothetical edge of town, to be sure they can't bombard the young person struggling with their gender identity with targeted hate at their weakest moment, then what are we doing here?
Could you clarify what you would do in cases like this? Censor based on misinterpretation of the clickbait headline, even if it does not contain hate content at all?
A friendly reminder; Please don't forget to take your time and step away from Kbin whenever you need a break. Your mental health is just as important, if not most important, for the project to succeed.
Everyone appreciates your effort here, ernest. Spez hasn't gotten 92 upvotes on a comment in years lmao despite Reddit having millions of users, it really shows how the difference.
I joined kbin recently and I'm kind of concerned about the implications of this. I don't support those posts at all, but who gets to say what's worth banning and what not? Wouldn't that go against the decentralized nature of the site? Or is it the specific instance that magazine is on that has the authority to ban what's inside? How does all of this work?
Edit: my bad, I got kbin and kbin.social mixed up. Noob mistake.
While I kind of agree with you in being concerned about who gets to control what we see and don't see and the censorship aspect, there is also "the paradox of tolerance" to be considered and maybe in that light it is correct to not tolerate that subs intolerance.
kbin.social administration controls only what is published on kbin.social, and what content from elsewhere kbin.social users can see. An user banned from kbin.social can make another account, on another site and start recreate there his banned community. kbin.social will be able to ban this remote user and remote community, but this restricts only what kbin.social users can see.
Exactly the same for another /kbin or lemmy site - just replace the domain name accordingly.
Wouldn't that go against the decentralized nature of the site?
No, it's exactly the opposite. The entire point of a decentralized federation is that while yes, the admin is in complete control of what content is allowed on his or her own instance, users who don't like what the admin is doing can just spin up their own new instances.
Ernest can ban this type of content if he likes. Others can take the kbin software and make a new instance where it's welcome. Ernest can choose not to federate with that instance if they continue to push content that's against his rules, but Ernest doesn't have the power to dictate the direction for hundreds of millions of users' experience like a certain centralized site's mad CEO or admin board does.
What would be against the nature of ActivityPub is if Ernest built something into the software to prevent it being used for types of content he doesn't like, even on other instances.
The Fediverse is decentralized. The individual instances are not. Decentralization means that there's no one person or organization with power over the entire network, but people absolutely can and should moderate their own instances. If you don't like the moderation policies of once instance you can move to another.
I noticed, but it's not me... not yet. The traffic simply dropped to an acceptable level. I'm working on maintaining this state permanently, and I think I'm on the right track. I want to do it really well and make use of the new possibilities we have now. In the meantime, I'm organizing the git/issues and will be on Matrix where we resolve certain technical matters. But I'll be back here soon and will tell you everything :)
ok cool, I already had element but wasn't sure what homeserver kbin was on. I think that would be a good thing to put on kbin.pub (unless it's already there and I just missed it). I've joined now though, thanks!
Don't forget to take breaks, even when there's a lot to do! We're all very happy to be here already, nothing is urgent enough that it's worth burning out over. :)
Unfortunately someone just tried to use my bank account the other day, so I'm waiting for a new card to come in, but I got this bookmarked for when I do. I think it's worth the cost of a cup of coffee every now and then.
Since Ernest doesn't mention it himself, I would like to point out that he has a BuyMeACoffee account where you can donate to him to support him for all his hard work.
I agree ... one of the greatest things I've seen in FOSS has been #HomeAssistant growing to the point that Nabu Casa can employee 25 people to work on the project (I have no idea if they're all full time or what, but I know at least a decent chunk are).
If I spin up an instance, whether it stays afloat is between me and the people on my instance, but if we want the flagship to stay up and for our dev to have the time/willingness to make improvements, he needs to get paid. Even just project managing a project of this size is an immense undertaking and just accepting PR's from others can get to be crazy.
I'd honestly prefer to not have to decide between "I want this to go to /kbin" or "Ernest is 'allowed' to buy a beer with this". I'd prefer to donate to something that ensures /Kbins needs are met for x amount of months and then the rest is split between employees of the org at whatever ratio is agreed upon. That's just my $.02 ... I really do appreciate that Ernest wants to be so careful with the fund though, I just don't want the /Kbin account to be sitting multi-thousands of dollars in the black while Ernest is struggling with basic subsistence.
As I’ve been lurking around the fediverse, running instances seems to be universally a hobby project, and it’s a little concerning. It kind of gives the impression of all being idealistic young kids embarrassed to ascribe value to their own time. I mean, you can do a lot with volunteer labor, especially if it’s a good ecosystem with appropriate recognition and gratitude, but the people are absolutely the most valuable parts of kbin.social, lemmy.world, etc, and they do have to eat, pay rent, go on vacation. It’s tough to respond to a 3am message about your instance being hacked if you have a job to be at four hours later, and leads to a whole different kind of burnout.
It’s early days yet, but I hope the bigger instance teams get some input from people who’ve managed growth spurts in non-profits, and especially the transition to their first paid staff members (even when that staff member is the owner).
I saw my first beheading at the age of 12 on ebaums world. My buddy got targeted by a pedophile and sent child pornography on a messaging board. Half the sites were on angelfire or geocities and featured constant porn pop-ups. My email was absolutely filled with dick pill spam immediately. Newgrounds was a super popular site with kids my age and like half of it was porn games. There was this really annoying emoji banner ad on like every site that would constantly shout “OH MY GOD NO WAAYY” and “SAY SOMETHING” (seriously it happened so much I can still hear it).
I don’t know that the internet “worked fine” lol. I mean, I think I turned out alright, but if my parents knew what I was seeing on the internet they never would’ve let me on the computer again.
The contraction we're seeing in the tech space this year is in large part a consequence of venture capitalist funding. A significant portion of tech sites were being funded at a loss, with the idea that profitability could be achieved after establishing a userbase. Rising interest rates pushed the VCs to put pressure on the companies they invested in: "no more free lunch, realize our gains now". This is why you see a rash of tech sites abruptly restructuring (Discord) or completely collapsing (gfycat). Reddit falls somewhere between the two, because it's likely they're seeking an IPO and they don't care about the fate of the website once they cash out. Twitter is ruled by an emperor with no clothes. Facebook can't make as much money as it did prior to the added government scrutiny, and the Zuck has been frantically trying to diversify his company these past few years.
This is a long-winded way of saying that ernest deserves a lot of praise here for being realistic and up front with the operating costs of running the largest kbin instance. lemmy and kbin draw inspiration from the social media platforms that came before them, but can't budget for growth the same way that their predecessors did. It's not going to be cheap, they aren't going to get the free lunch that prior social media platforms had, and ernest needs to proceed with the well-being of both himself and his project in mind.
@elscallr Well some history. IPv4 (and later IPv6 now) was meant to connect computers together, ideally without any router/modem in between but each device directly on the web (but ipv6 came too late). So we got an interconnected web.
Later Tim Berners-Lee just want to have a human-readable documents to be linked together, with a distributed architecture that would see those documents stored on multiple servers, controlled by different people, and interconnected. I think the fediverse comes pretty close to this idea.
I also think big companies and centralized solutions might make it easier for the user, but we also now know all the downsides of those solutions from Google, Meta, Amazon, Microsoft,... you are the product.
Ackshually yeah you're right, but I was simplifying.
I'm 25 years older than you are, if you're the person in your pfp, and was there when you had to dial into the service you wanted to use. Not saying that to flex, just to say... I fucking know.
ipv4, and the structures that came before it, were meant for academics and military commands to talk to each other on government funding. It was the definition of an elitist space and filled with idealistic kids and dilettantes who didn’t need to worry about rent. Nobody in the public would even know it existed for a decade.
Hmm. Interestingly, I just tried it again and it seems the issue may have fixed itself (probably affected by the other changes). If it does start again I'll make a report. Thanks!
Great work guys, really happy with how many tweaks, bug fixes and be additions we got in. Super super keen to get the click to toggle comment functionally in (love it on mobile) along with some of the new bigger pieces
lol I got super confused cos I could've SWORN your PR that you're working on atm about user profiles was merged already, but after the update the 2nd display name is still there....so I was like, did anything change? when did the commits go up to? and then I realized this PR isn't merged yet and heavily 🤦♀️
Hopefully soon! Adjusted styles on it so it doesn't overflow now which is great, waiting on it to get reviewed. Be good to get rid of all these extra parts of the system that aren't really helpful.
Thanks for the updates Ernest, just fyi I had to delete the pwa I had for kbin and reinstall it to get the updates. Maybe have to adjust something in your manifest to auto update? I'll take a look at code later. Really happy so far tho, the screen lock is a life saver!!
The manifest is a pain. Apparently even updating the theme_color should be enough to force chrome to download a new version and update the local client, but that can take anywhere from a few hours to a day or so 😰
I've found deleting it and reinstalling thankfully works and now shows the fancy icon on Android
This is the kind of transparent communication that buys so much goodwill and trust from the community. I've been enjoying my first experience in the Fediverse with Kbin, and the response here only makes me love it that much more. Nicely handled.
Agreed. I had already created an account on a Lemmy instance (Lemmy.one since I wanted to avoid the two main .ml instances). I had just about settled but decided to give Kbin a try. While it doesn't seem quite as far along in it's development, it struck me as a better user experience. Combined with reservations I have about the Lemmy developers... Well, here we are. And seeing this level of involvement and dedication to doing the right thing from the developer confirms that choice. Kudos @ernest
As I am totally new to this whole thing, could you elaborate for me on those reservations about the lemmy developers? And are those the same that created lemmy.world?
This is a result of the original design. Kbin, up until just before the peak traffic hit, was using boosts as upvotes and favorites/likes were just below the post/thread (where boost sits now). Lemmy does it the way it is now (likes = upvotes) so Ernest changed it to match Lemmy behavior. But just as he changed it, he hadn’t changed the calculation for reputation to match when the server nearly melted down and he has to spend all his time just trying to keep the site alive by himself.
I see you’re on a different Kbin instance. Was this intended to be a threaded reply, out of curiosity? Because it shows up as a top-level comment on the post for me.
Yes, but my bigger point is that it’s not threaded as a reply to one of that user’s comments.
Edit: Oops, nevermind. I saw their comments elsewhere down here but didn’t realize they were OP. Just one of the interface things on Kbin that needs improvement.
Edit 2: I need to figure out how to do strikethrough text on here
As a desktop kbin user, there's no strikethrough. Unsure as to why, if kbin is markdown. Strikethrough is considered advanced markdown formatting so I'm guessing kbin didn't include it. Now I'm curious to see how much common markdown is visible on kbin's desktop platform.
Guide for those unfamiliar with markdown, so you can see what I'm doing. ✔ means I can see it on desktop kbin, ❌ means it remains unformatted (formatting characters remain).
It's possible that this is a consequence of the latest Lemmy update, in which a lot has changed. I have noted that kbin has some issues with request signature in communication with certain instances. I will try to check it tomorrow first thing in the morning.
I've noticed we are also not federating with lemmy.wtf for some reason, maybe it's something related. They are connected well with other lemmy instances but kbin can't get a hold of them despite being on their list of linked instances
It takes time. I just setup my own instance and I sent a comment from there, it took 40 minutes to arrive on kbin.social, upvotes and replies have not made it back to my instance yet some 45-60mins after they happened.
Because, when you post here from kbin.social any other instance with kbinMeta@kbin.social will get a copy of that and vice-versa. But each side is exchanging posts from multiple magazines to multiple other instances. It's also balancing resource usage for people visiting the site too.
Also new instances are gradually fetching the back-catalog of posts for various magazines (and communities on lemmy). So all of this leads to a delay.
Anecdotally the delay is quite short this morning. Yesterday it reached up to 2 hours from my view at least.
Case in point, it took less than a minute for this to reach my instance (this is me, posting from my instance... Maybe I should have used another username... This one has a picture, is the instance me).
Well, there's a bit to unpack here. When you download something in seconds that's your whole connection to a server that is on a super fast connection.
Most people running instances are on a much more modest combination of hardware and connection and even the bigger ones (kbin.social etc) are not going to have a connection as fast as dedicated download CDNs can offer. I would expect they probably have a gigabit, and at most 10gbit. That's shared between everyone on the site downloading cat pictures, posting, refreshing AND the federation of all the new content to and from other instances.
But that's really not the problem here at all. Far more of a load is the processing of the incoming and outgoing messages to and from many instances. This takes CPU load (and to a lesser extent memory), and this is shared between the message queue for these inter-instance messages, the web server and database.
When you look at how the fediverse of kbin and lemmy is laid out. You will see there's a handful of larger instances with most of the popular magazines/communities. This means that they're doing the lion's share of this processing. Couple the fact that the population has exploded over the last month or so, even these larger instances might be struggling with hardware and/or infrastructure layout (maybe running all on one box, and needing to split the load for example). That's speculation though.
At any rate, for whatever reason (maybe the lemmy problems backing up message queues with errors) things were MUCH slower last night.
Until kbin.social servers are fully upgraded, such delays will occur. Even afterwards, it might happen if the other instance is running on slow servers. We are still in the early stages of this platform, and there is no huge corporate throwing money at us (it is so early that there hasn't even been an actual 'Release' yet). These quirks are to be expected as kbin develops.
Wow, thank you for the quick communication. Amazing aptitude. Almost nowhere else do you find a lead dev in the comment trenches letting us know what's happening, I'm kinda baffled.
Honestly dude start a Patreon or something even if you only do it for temporary. I would chip in $5/month for a while to pay for server costs if it means getting a stable site and a viable alternative to Reddit.
It's also useful because it allows monthly flow, which is way more useful for planning than just a lump sum and ??? on what you'll get in a few months.
Also it helps to further gauge growth. New users is one thing, but new users actively donating for the betterment of the project is something entirely different. (Also first kbin.social comment, hope this place explodes in a good way!)
Agreed, brah. I just donated, and would gladly donate via recurring methods if implemented. Also, what Kaldo said earlier...don't develop this by yourself, you're gonna burn out faster than you think.
The speed thing is interesting because for most of the time it's actually not unusable. It's a little delay here and there, but often fast or okay speed. it's only sometimes that it gets kinda unbearably slow. But IMO as long as it's up, I can deal with a slow speed here and there if it means I get to keep using kbin :). the dev/admin here is an absolute champ. kbin is awesome.
I prefer "sometimes it's laggy/slow" over reddit's "btw we're gonna just die for an hour. lol you broke reddit, here's a pic of a cat unplugging a computer".
Wow ;) I'm incredibly lucky to have come across people like you. The authors of those posts are actually right - managing /kbin is a significant challenge nowadays. It requires extensive knowledge and experience to keep it under control. But also I've never hidden that fact - the information about it is placed at the very top of the repository's readme ;) However, as I mentioned, a lot is changing very quickly https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/122333/Fediverse-won-t-replace-Reddit-as-long-as-Lemmy-is-the#entry-comment-478779. And we're all working hard on it, to improve and automate as many things as possible. Thanks to all of you, I believe I can face it head-on, and together we can create a better place. Better internet. Not just this instance, but cooperation between platforms is the key here.
Unfortunately, there are delays occurring again - I've decided that smooth website operation will be the priority this time. There are approximately 450k tasks waiting in the queue, and everything will be handled, but it will take some time. Today, we're also conducting final tests of the new infrastructure. It's taking a while because we're documenting templates that can later be used by others to create their own instances. I hope these are the last issues we have to endure ;)
Thanks for all the work you do, and I hope you find it rewarding. Most of all, look after yourself mentally and physically. The same goes for the whole team.
The fact you are being transparent and honest about your work and plans for the future, is a huge bonus. Even admitting to setback and problems, is refreshing. I certainly don't expect a super human running the show, and everything to be perfect. If anything, that would make me question the place and avoid it. So many places talk rubbish, spewing out a word salad, but actually say nothing. Even worse, they say one thing and do the precise opposite. You come across as .... well, the total opposite of Spez and those running Deaditt.
Thank you for putting the time into this. I'm really enjoying what you're creating here and I look forward to all it can become. Please pace yourself and find help where you can. Don't burn yourself out!
What you've done here is truly impressive. Reach out to the community when you need help and stay healthy. It's clear you know what you're doing and thanks for all the hard work!
I just logged in and noticed the updated reputation counting system. Ernest is a man of his word, y'all. I know we're in good hands and look forward to seeing where things go in the future. Really appreciate all your hard work
I'm a firm believer there can never be too many thanks you's given so: Thank you ernest and everyone working on this.
I myself don't have much php experience other than one small site that i run, but i hope in the future i can too contribute to this project. But that said i do have somewhat more linux experience and if you or anyone here needs help with anything feel free to shoot me a message.
Those “antiwoke” people disgust me. I encourage disagreements. I don’t encourage thinly veiled hate disguised with code words. Tolerance isn’t “far left”.
Agreed, though that's not a common term, and the non-authoritarian left is approximately center-left. The center-left is opposed to wokeism, like Bill Maher. The center-left is pro-free-speech. All of the desire to ban speech that you see throughout this thread is extreme AuthLeft, to use that terminology.
How is one guy saying (to extremely paraphrase) "some people have used the label of freedom to exploit vulnerable people" relevant to this? Like, thats a given, that some people will use this as a guise. Now, is there a systematic problem of leftists arguing for the freedom to assault children? No, only in the imagination of projecting right-libertarians.
Michel Foucault, Gayle Rubin and Judith Butler aren't just "some people", they are three of the most influential thought leaders of the (post-)modern Left. Foucault of course being joined by heavyweights like Derrida, Lyotard, Deleuze, de Beauvoir, Sartre, Barthes etc. etc. and so on and so forth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws
The point of course being that this thread is full of idiots who have never even heard of the likes of Foucault or truly appreciate how badly they jumped the gun here (turns out there was still some "intolerance" left). Your cult of transgression and tolerance is not philosophically sound.
With all due respect poststructuralist academics (many of whom are dead) are not the sociocultural leaders of anyone.
That 1977 petition is heinous, but I don't think that being influenced by poststructuralism some 47 years later means anyone has to agree with those politics.
When I took a couple of critical theory oriented literary courses at uni these were the names that came up again and again, but there was no mention of their ultimate transgression. This is how the myth of an entirely dangerous right and an entirely harmless left is propagated. Just don't mention the bad parts of the left and create one continuous antagonist group out of everyone from Ted Cruz to Heinrich Himmler. Every rightist is implicated in the actions of their most radical thought leaders, but leftists are afforded the luxury of not associating with characters like Foucault, Lenin or Mao at their own leisure.
And I know that you know this but a "thought leader" doesn't need to be alive, so that's not really an argument. These people are tremendously influential and popular in our time (and Butler and Rubin aren't even dead), as demonstrated by the negative response to the Derrick Jensen lecture clip linked above.
Tangential but it's wild to me that you studied Gayle Rubin repeatedly and the pedophilia angle somehow didn't come up. It's literally right there in her writing. Her work was only referenced in one postgrad course I took and 99% of the class totally hated on her for it.
I have to say I don't think this "rightist"/"leftist" paradigm is really working in this discussion. It's way too simplistic and implies that there are two monolithic worldviews at different ends of a linear compendium. But that's just not the case. Many of the theorists don't even agree with each other, or with their own past selves, etc etc.
And in the grassroots a lot of it doesn't even filter down. Soup kitchen workers who never read any of Butler's word salads, junior investment partners who haven't even read Adam Smith...
Sapere aude. The world is too interesting and complex to narrow down to two "ideologies".
The main crit lit course was undergrad and at a European uni (with an American professor) so it was all pretty superficial, but the prof didn't exactly volunteer the ugly sides of these thinkers (as he most certainly would have done with a Carl Schmitt or a Heidegger). The other course (also undergrad) was even less rigorous, just a quick once-over of the basics of oppression and yada yada, namedropping Marcuse/Foucault/Derrida but never dissecting them.
The point of mentioning this wasn't to say that I'm some kind of particular expert on these thinkers (I am not) but rather that my experience with their presentation is that they are left as likeable as possible (there were years between me hearing of Foucault and realizing he was a nonce, whereas people usually learn that someone like Heidegger was a nazi before they even know how his name is pronounced).
I 100% agree on the uselessness of the left/right-dichotomy as it stands, particularly because the radical right gets lumped in with liberal individualists like Adam Smith/Ayn Rand/Ronald Reagan etc., which makes no sense at all.
Still, there are some essential axioms that can be used to distinguish the left and the right, those being equality+liberalism vs. disparity+illiberalism. There is a natural reason that the pedophiles aren't garnering support among the ranks of the far right and that white nationalists won't find much love among the far left.
Your experience sounds unfortunate. It was pretty darn weird of them to gloss over Foucault and not Heidegger! Irresponsible, even.
I'm not American, and find some of their conflations between politics, social policy, and economic policy a little hard to get behind. It's far from universal.
The far-right brings messages of hate, violence, intolerance, and attempts to pass legislation to justify their views. The far-left has brought us the weekend, the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, etc…
Oh, and I didn't know people like Henry Ford and the 2nd Baron Trent were "far-left". I guess the horseshoe really does exist after all.
Stop beating strawmen, your ideological muscles are only gonna atrophy further.
The apparent paradox is solved by viewing tolerance as a social contract. Only those who adhere to the contract and are tolerant of others can have a claim to receive that same tolerance. Similarly those who are intolerant should have no expectation to be tolerated since they do not adhere to the social contract which should provide that tolerance.
Nonsense, we most certainly can. In fact, most countries "worked out" without ever needing to be tolerant in the first place.
Popper doesn't even acknowledge that this notion can be universalized, and then you're just back to square one with Carl Schmitt and the Concept of the Political.
Take your LGBT example. For that to work, you must be intolerant of, say, Salafis. Then the Salafi can respond that his in-group (the faithful, true to God, whatever) are being threatened by those who must necessarily be intolerant of him by nature of their own allegiance.
Thus you still end up with a value judgment despite Popper's veneer of neutralization and depoliticization. That's where the real philosophizing begins. How do you justify allegiance to one side of the friend/enemy distinction over the other?
Except you don't have to be intolerant of Salafis. They can be Salafis or not for all I or anyone else cares, what matters is whether they hate people for who they are and spread or communicate that hate.
I'm personally not entirely sure about male to female trans athletes being allowed to compete in female-only leagues and am concerned about the wisdom of allowing sex change procedures for minors that weren't born intersex. I wouldn't marry a trans person and if a close family member suddenly came out as trans I might have long discussions with said family member for a while,
But that's it. I wouldn't even dream of hating someone for being trans or demonizing people who are. Even if I had religious beliefs against that kind of stuff it would at worst make me worry about such a person or make me pray for them.
If I were a moderator of a public space, I'd allow them to talk there without fear so long as they're not actively attacking others, same as any other group.
Likewise, you can believe that trans people are wrong and will go to whatever equivalent of hell your belief system has and I would tolerate you as long as you are civil about it, come from a position of compassion and empathy and don't try to force people to listen to you (like by using multiple accounts to circumvent blocks and/or bans) who have clearly communicated that they don't want to hear you anymore (same goes in the other direction, btw) and don't try to incite others to treat them as anything other than fellow human beings.
If someone from either side can't do that, that person lacks tolerance and in turn can expect the same level of tolerance being directed to them.
Salafism kind of requires you to be intolerant of people for who they are, but let's not pretend these people would lend the same "live and let live" thinking to a Catholic bishop who espoused the views of a Salafi mullah when it comes to homosexuals.
But I get where you're coming from and your position is entirely reasonable. The problem is just that your attitude is not that of this thread and the OP. If you actually look at this 10A guy's posts you'll find nothing that merits the response you see in this thread. I'd say there's a long way to overstepping the threshold of civility on that part, but in this thread people already want heads on spikes, so to speak.
Alright you caught me in a good mood, so I’ll throw some articles out here to explain my line of thinking. I hope you’ll see I’m not arguing with strawmen.
I hope this clears up my line of thinking. No invisible boogymen here - just some examples of,
In my opinion, things changing for the worst. And if you were not arguing in good faith… oh well.
The "Paradox of Tolerance" is garbage. An interesting thought experiment where Popper came to the wrong conclusions. You can't believe in "Freedom of Speech" AND "The Paradox of Tolerance". They're incompatible.
I'll take "freedom of speech" over "governmental censorship" any day.
Because nobody thinks about what happens if a fundie takes power and decides that abortion is "intolerable" and arrests people who make pro-choice arguments because they're being offensive. Or if anyone makes fun of religion, that's intolerance and you must go to jail.
Yeah I get where you're coming from but this all hinges on the concept of Popper's Open Society taken to its most extreme.
Have you ever considered why this whole "children must be able to see drag shows" notion didn't show up just 20 years ago?
Idk, this kind of devil-on-the-wall "this is trans GENOCIDE" rhetoric when it comes to shit like increasing penalties for indecent exposure and not allowing children to attend drag shows really just says the quiet part out loud.
@10A Hatred, bigotry, scapegoating of vulnerable minorities, lies, gaslighting, opposition to democracy and the rule of law is what defines the modern right. That is textbook evil, and you seem very committed to defending it. Look around, those left of you do not tolerate it. Almost every other comment is from people who want to block you or show you the door. Features are being added to this platform to specifically block your hate speech.
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
I agree, I think it's good to have a discussion, and polite disagreement is quite acceptable. But like you said, encouraging violence and hatred is not acceptable to me.
/kbin meta
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