Oh, Zot! Nomadic Identity is Coming to ActivityPub: This could change the Fediverse forever
Years before there was Mastodon and even ActivityPub, there was Mike Macgirvin who created the Zot protocol, which Hubzilla runs on. One of Hubzilla’s most amazing features (apart from also integrating with Activity and the Fediverse, and having cha ...continues
@danie10 can you give a little hint on how to use/activate this Nomadic Identity function so we could try it and understand what it is and how it works. I looked at my #hubzilla profile settings and didn't find any mention of it.
@danie10 thank you, I think I got it, though I should admit everything is really difficult to find with #hubzilla interface - even just to get to this Import function where Nomadic Identity is hidden you should unintuitively go to "Channels" - "Create new channel" page instead of just simply find it in Settings menu like with Mastodon.
@fisunov and #Hubzilla is now quite an old network. Mike has long moved onto other projects. But he is here on the Fediverse at @mikedev so I'll be watching his posts closely.
For what seems like ages .... (about 6-8 weeks), I did not want to touch anything on my yunohost mastodon app, because the webinterface was broken, but the barebones settings were accessible. And I could still toot via my mobile app.
Finally, the interface is up and running again, but I fear a mastodon-move will be in the works, as I find the yunohost masto version very dodgy and not well maintained.
Any tips on how I can install my own server and keep all data of this version in the new one?
@leonieke@meneer why not do a trial run of #Hubzilla or its successor #Streams ? Available in Yunohost, I believe. Nowhere as complicated to admin, and compatible with many protocols, not just ActivityPub.
Or #Epicyon, which is said to be even less complicated.
Which, in many cases, is the very first time that Mastodon users even read that name and learn about the existence of that project. I mean, I've seen a poll just yesterday, according to which three out of four Fediverse users have never heard of Hubzilla.
This, in turn, piques their interest. All of a sudden, lots of Mastodon users are curious about Hubzilla as it's said to be able to do things that Mastodon can't, but that they wish Mastodon could.
Some like @dynamic who haven't used any other Fediverse projects than Mastodon so far actually go as far as trying it out themselves, only to discover something probably absolutely unexpected: Hubzilla works and handles absolutely nothing like Mastodon. And that's not simply due to the formerly-default-and-now-only UI that's perpetually stuck in 2012.
They may actually wonder why Mike had the audacity to build something that's so much different from Mastodon instead of just aping Mastodon and slapping extra stuff on. And I guess they're even more surprised when you tell them that Hubzilla was made before Mastodon. Which means that there was a Fediverse before Mastodon.
It occurred to me only recently just how many ways Hubzilla has to completely blow Mastodon users' minds.
However, it isn't like people who have come from Twitter to Mastodon to Hubzilla over the last year and a half are all happy about how Hubzilla is different from Mastodon. Switching from Mastodon to Hubzilla takes more getting used to than switching from Twitter to Mastodon, especially if you expect Mastodon to be a standard that everything else has to follow.
There are, in fact, lots of things about Hubzilla that'll irritate people used to Mastodon to no end. The confusing difference between account and channel. The unusual conversation model that sends posts to other people than on Mastodon which doesn't have a conversation model. Separate editors for posts and comments. In fact, posts and comments being something different. ActivityPub not being on by default, and instead of having a simple opt-in switch in the settings, you have to "install" an "app" to be able to connect to Mastodon. No CW field (it's the summary field, but there's none for comments). No alt-text field. No distinction between followers and followed. Stuff in the settings not being where you'd expect it to be from your experience with Mastodon.
And I'm not even talking about the vast permission options yet. Or the filters which even I say need improvements. Or Hubzilla being unable to boost (shall be fixed with Hubzilla 9) and follow hashtags. Or people telling you that you have to type code manually if you want to have alt-text.
Even those who learn about Hubzilla without trying it are confused. Why is it so different? Why does it have to be so different? Why can't it be like Mastodon?
In fact, it doesn't really occur rarely that Mastodon users consider almost everything in which Hubzilla differs from Mastodon a bug which they think can be fixed. It seems to be hard to imagine that what they take for a bug is part of Hubzilla's concept, and it has often been part of the concept since the early days of Mistpark back in 2010, almost six years before Mastodon came out.
I think over the next days and weeks, Hubzilla will increasingly be considered not only weirdly different, but disturbingly different. Along with that, more and more Mastodon users will become aware of the "atrocities" from a Mastodon point of view which Hubzilla users commit in the Fediverse, and which they justify with their different culture. Enormously long posts, text formatting, quotes, quote-posts, as if it's all the most normal thing in the world. Which, for Hubzilla users, it is.
In the near future, Mastodon will likely produce two more forms of drama. One is strong opposition against nomadic identity anywhere in the Fediverse, not so much because it's "un-Mastodon-like", but because it's expected to be used in malicious ways.
The other one is increasing opposition against Hubzilla itself and more and more calls for Fediblocking it in its entirety, along with all Mastodon or otherwise Fediverse instances that don't Fediblock all Hubzilla hubs. All because it's got that disturbing stuff like nomadic identity and huge posts well over 500 characters and quote-posts with no opt-out for anyone. And because more and more Mastodon users become aware of it.
@jupiter_rowland@mikedev I think #Hubzilla would have been more cool and successful if it didn't had #ActivityPub app and was its own alternative Fediverse. I wonder if there probably are Hubzilla instances without it. And actually i find the way Hubzilla does "Share" posts to be better than Mastodon in a way that you really give additional visibility to self and post you share by making it appear once again on public timelines. As well it can prevent ActivityPub posts from appearing on your instance in case you'd want your instance to be zot protocol-only posts. I actually like current version of Hubzilla and I prefer old versions of Mastodon like Qoto and Fedibird.
Yesterday I did a quick test drive of a #Hubzilla instance. It was a somewhat mindtwisting experience for me as a Mastodon user, in a similar way to how Mastodon/Twitter was mind-twisting for me coming from a Livejournal/Dreamwidth/Facebook background.
But it has some really nice features and might be exactly the thing that some folks are looking for.
@dynamic just really wishing there was a proper Docker image for #Hubzilla as when I moved from cPanel hosting to Docker based, I could never find one. I'd love to run my own Hubzilla insance again with all its additional app functionality, nomadic ID, mirroring, etc.
I want to create a new functionality and I need some ideas. I want to add an option to contacts, so that their posts don't appear in the network timeline anymore. But in difference to "ignored", "collapsed" or "blocked" this has got no further consequences. It is meant especially for contacts that you want to aggregate in a dedicated channel. So for example you could decide to subscribe to a lot of news channels, but you don't want to see them in the network timeline, since they post that often. Instead you create a channel for them and browse them from time to time. Same could be an option for groups or for feeds.
This filter would work for threads that are started by this special account. I would try to expand this to posts that are reshared by these accounts or by threads that are fetched, because this account commented in the thread. (The last two parts could be more challenging)
My questions are:
Do you think that this is a good idea?
Could it be done better than an option on the contact page?
How could this be named, so that users don't misunderstand the functionality?
So for example you could decide to subscribe to a lot of news channels, but you don't want to see them in the network timeline, since they post that often. Instead you create a channel for them and browse them from time to time. Same could be an option for groups or for feeds.
I remember - when I had #hubzilla account - I used their "affinity" feature to filter this. Affinity was number from 0-100 (iirc) and you used slider to chose what will appear in timeline. I can imagine creating separate channels for close contacts with affinity <50 and "filler" contacts with affinity <50 afterwards. Hubzilla had slider to chose how close contacts you would like to see on your timeline.
Maybe I should start an irregular series of "What Hubzilla is like" posts for people in the Fediverse, Mastodon specifically, who don't know anything about it. Not for those who want to switch, but for those who assume that Hubzilla is just like whatever else they know. Like, for Mastodon users who blindly assume that Hubzilla is just like Mastodon with a different UI and then act accordingly. Thus, it'd mostly focus on how Hubzilla is different from Mastodon.
The difficult part would be to limit these posts to only 500 characters. Minus what I'll need for the hashtags, namely #Hubzilla, #FediTips and #FediverseTips to increase discoverability for those who are interested and #FediMeta, #FediverseMeta, #CWFediMeta and #CWFediverseMeta so that these posts are automatically removed or hidden behind generated content warnings by already existing filters. Because I know for a fact that many Mastodon users won't touch anything that goes even a smidge over 500 characters. And I know that there are Mastodon users for whom any and all Fediverse meta is too nerve-gratingly techy.
> Everyone else who talks about the non-Mastodon Fediverse isn't on Mastodon.
Not really. 🤪 I'm on a Mastodon-powered instance.
I used to run a #Philippines#Friendica server. (It was the second #fediverse instance for the Philippines. The first was running Friendika managed by students.)
Then I ran my own #Hubzilla (family & friends). And used to manage the community for an #ASEAN Hubzilla instance (sadly, the sponsor and admin disappeared).
Today, I'm staying away from the backend management. I no longer have the resources to dedicate to it. So, I just search for instances with sane set up (like not abusing site-level blocks because someone told them to).
"True Fediverse citizens" (for lack of a better label) do exist on Mastodon-powered platforms. There are plenty of others beside me. 😃
If you haven't heard, sadly, #ChirpSocial, one of the popular #ActivityPub “groups” platform, is shutting down “probably” on February 29th.
In an email they sent to admins, the owner and developer can no longer support https://chirp.social financially as they failed to find a new job after they were laid off by #Google last year.
This reminds us the importance of having a built-in groups feature, and one where the groups feature actually federates.
Back in 2008, when the #Fediverse was born, we did have a built-in federated groups in #Laconica / #StatusNet (today known as #GNUsocial). We used bang (!) instead of at (@). A built-in groups feature is more stable as established instances can host them.
Today, we have #Friendica and #Hubzilla (as well as #Streams-based instances) to fill in that, as groups is a built-in feature in those software products. It's just a matter of finding an instance that's open to hosting groups for any topic for the ActivityPub protocol.
That said, any Friendica, Hubzilla, Streams-based instances you suggest for groups?
#Hubzilla fans, what is the best mobile client to use with Hubzilla? I am finding that #Fedilab, my favorite mastodon/#friendica client, doesnt work with Hubzilla.
Thanks for any tips as I explore a new corner of the #Fediverse.
I think a lot of my frustration with some of the “consent based” social networking pushers is the lack of consistency. Those same people don’t want to utilise software that will grant them the experiences they desire, instead they want to argue and fight in an attempt to force others. Why not use #Hubzilla#GoToSocial#CounterSocial and others that have more control? Or join spaces that have allow list federation? #Fedi#Fediverse#Mastodon
first the text sounded to me like we have it with #Hubzilla and #Streams since day one... with the mayor difference that the Zot / Nomad / AP network is not designed by a company which likely wants make some profit after some time.
Bluesky is not a free Network because the rules it runs by are not open for free development.
The AT protocol is open but not the software which runs Server and Clients.
Bluesky is build around BGS (Big Graph Service) only few players will be able to run.. and all data inside this Bluesky system is more or less public. So the one who can run a BGS will be able to see it more or less all.
So #Bluesky is not at all like "the Internet" as they try to put it in the text and not for sure like #Hubzilla and #Streams - Bluesky is not about privacy
@chris Definitely agree about the privacy thing, this is something quite some people seem to be completely unaware, but are you sure about software (clients, server) not being open? I thought that was one of the things they started out with rather early, same as opening the protocol itself. (Being pretty much in dislike with the structures that built Bluesky, I still am pissed having to admit they at least tried to fix what ActivityPub apparently never cared to do right - accounts not permanently and forever tied to a particular instance. Wish #Hubzilla had more presence at this point being able to promote and establish Nomadic Identity as a core Fediverse standard. 🙁)
Hello again #Fediverse, I may need your #fedihelp. So, here's a list of the Fediverse software I'm about to make temporary accounts for to test all the features and differences:
So, did I miss anything noteworthy? Does anyone have any tips or recommendations before I choose a server for any one of these? I'll probably be going for the most popular server on each for improved federation and maintenance.
Note: I'm using #Sharkey right now and Misskey forks are already overrepresented, so that's why it's not included.
@oskoo and #Hubzilla - operates along similar lines to #Friendica, but it has nomadic ID which is pretty unique which is a bit slicker than #Mastodon migration. Many sit with a dilemma, choosing between Hubzilla and Friendica (I still use both as I could never decide).