This has mostly been reported as "trans women banned from women's chess" but it's much more sinister. (as if it weren't already.)
ALL trans people are targeted by this ruling. Trans men will be stripped of all chess titles won, which can only be returned to them by “changing the gender back to a woman” (from the ICF’s ruling). ALL transgender chess players will be marked as trans in their files.
If you play or know anyone who does take a stand on this. It's ugly.
This news has caused some people to ask why "women's chess" even exists -- women can compete in the open tournament. The women's competitions were a recognition of just how far behind chess is when it comes to cultivating and welcoming female players.
Not that shocking they are even more far behind when it comes to even knowing what that would mean. (eg not excluding trans women.)
But all this misses the bigger point. They don't want any trans people at all in their games.
@futurebird if so, women chess should be a temporary measure (very temporary) and the main goal should be avoiding it at all (I mean development of gender-agnostic common completitions) rather then discussion of some subtle details.
@Wollsocke@futurebird Hm. You know, basically, yes, I consider regulations of how a couple of millionaires are regulated to move colored figures on colored table and if they are allowed to earn another millions for funny but useless stuff exactly as "some subtle details". Sorry (not really), I am just a guy born in Ukraine, and I've been slightly busy trying to ensure extra funding allowing me to keep doing research in Prague, and in that way keep my family in a more or less save country. What do you want to tell me about privileges?
Moreover, you failed to get the point of my post. The point is to make the competition in the end where everybody will be able to participate and nobody will even ask if they are male/female/trans/whatever.
Privilege does not imply that you have it easy, it just means other people have struggles that you don't know anything about.
And sure, not being allowed to compete in chess tournaments in itself might not be an enormous hardship if that were the only place where trans people are excluded or discriminated. But it certainly isn't, it's part of a bigger picture and as such, imho it should be called out.
@Wollsocke@futurebird "just means other people have struggles that you don't know anything about" this argument is double-edged. Even possibility to declare itself "trans" implies the absence of a very long list of struggles (just because it is any possible only in countries where these problems are at least remedied).
"if that were the only place where trans people are excluded or discriminated" so maybe it makes sense to discuss this serious stuff first?
@futurebird Well, the only reason for segregating different player groups, in this case bei sex/gender, is to protect the weaker one. With chess being a purely intellectual thing, this means that FIDE is of the opinion that sex makes a significant difference, intellectually.
In my opinion, this is a real double whammy: You see at first look that it's anti-trans, but on closer inspection it's also one of the most extremely anti-women things I've seen in recent times... Infuriating to the max.
@futurebird What is, instead of "women's chess" they called it "inclusive chess". Or maybe "non-bigoted chess". Make treating other people like crap grounds for expulsion from a tournament with repeat offenders getting banned.
@futurebird It’s really shocking to me that the game that is supposed to be purely mental has such ridiculous physical prejudices in its governing bodies.
I think there are some obvious reasons why thats true.
My brother was pretty good at chess and won some trophies on the school team so I tried to join. (he told me when he joined he didn't even know how to play.)
This ended up being one of the most explicit experiences with sexism in my life! The first time I showed up they pretended I was in the wrong place. "This isn't the chess club it's the Anime club."
I told the advisor who now resented me for making him come to the meetings. 1/
@futurebird I remember the chess club at my middle school was run by one of the school parents who was a pretty accomplished chess player himself.
But, his only kid was a daughter.
Everyone in the actual chess club was a boy, and our chess teacher's daughter would just like... hang out, and not play chess, and help her dad with stuff like bringing us snacks.
I remember being 11 or 12 years old and being shocked at how obviously sexist it was, but I didn't know what to do about it, either.
So, now they couldn't get me to leave by lying ... no one would play against me since "you don't have a rating its a wast of time"
I managed to get a few games out of the advisor (who clearly wanted to be grading papers) unlike my brother I came to the club already knowing the game.
On the third meeting they relented and they had what I learned later was their best player go against me. Of course I lost very quickly and badly!
Looking back I can recognize that I was "ruining" their club in a way they couldn't articulate. Because not everyone there was already skilled and with time... I probably would have beat one of the weaker players-- and this just couldn't be allowed to happen.
That's how I read it.
I remember calling my brother at college and asking "did the chess club haze you or anything?" and he was so confused.
I tried out for the fall play and when I got cast I forgot all about those guys. 3/
@futurebird Yep toxic masculinity says they are already inferior for being nerdy. But it also says women are even more inferior, as evidenced by them often getting told things like “you throw like a girl.” They find something they’re good at, and it gives them a sense of a “but at least I’m good at X and have a place as a man.” But if a woman can beat them? Their carefully-crafted place in the masculine order falls apart. 1/
@futurebird This is why STEM still has problems with gender balanced and why women gamers get so abused during games and why D&D groups are often so toxic for women. The exact same levers at play. So add in the idea of a trans person, and their world shatters. A “man” deciding they’re happier as a woman? How dare they! All their externalized self-loathing comes up and they, being deep believers in the patriarchy, lash out at those they perceive as a threat to it. 2/
@futurebird Even though it’s the same system that oppressed them. Instead of making them empathetic, it turned them into soldiers who will fight for the system that made them miserable as children in an attempt to cling to the only sense of self-worth they have.
It’s kind of sad, but also infuriating, given how transparent it is. Like, men will do anything to avoid going to therapy, and by “anything” I mean perpetrating the same abuse they received onto others…3/
@futurebird … in hopes of scoring points in the toxic masculinity game.
And no, just because you understand why someone is a bully doesn’t make them not a bully. This is awful behavior. Much comfort to those targeted by these bullies!!
@queenofnewyork@futurebird kinda the same mentality as the poor white trash racists. They can have all the cards stacked against them, but as long as they have someone else to denigrate and look down on it makes them feel better about their place in the world.
@futurebird@DanadasGrau Yep, take all the shit that’s been forced on you and turn it against someone else. Not the people dishing it out, but the people who cannot fight back. :/
@futurebird My father taught me how to play chess and we played often. When I went to chess club in high school I heard, “Girls can’t play chess.” So yeah, 100% this.
@futurebird Yup. I played against one of their players and won (he wasn’t very good, evidence for your argument), but it had been poisoned for me, so I didn’t bother going back.
@futurebird
Chess wasn't much of an draw for me, but most other science or speculative-fiction adjacent hobbies were.
I've heard women recount this sort of situation before & I completely believe it. But, remembering my own teen years, the guys attitude always baffled me.
I remember at that age desperately hoping for a future romantic companion (or just more general friends of either gender) who shared my nerdy interests. Was always mildly afraid of accidently alienating them.
@futurebird It's so ridiculous... Straight male nerds who likely complain that women don't want to be around them ostracizing women who want to be part of their group...
@futurebird
My younger sister remembers that when we were kids we would play chess together, until one day she got good enough to start beating me, at which point I no longer wanted to play chess. Society gets you started early it seems 🤦♂ It's also telling that she remembers this when I don't.
@futurebird I don’t even understand why there’s gender divisions in chess given that there’s fundamentally no intellectual difference between men and women. Gender division in physical sports makes a little sense, though physical differences between athletes of different genders are smaller than we’re generally led to believe. (Which is why letting trans people compete as their chosen gender will only have a negligible difference on sport.)
I keep seeing people say this let me explain why I strongly support keeping a women's league in chess given its current um... condition.
If my HS had a "women's chess team" I might have stuck with it.
When you have extreme sexism so much that almost no women even show up it's a good first step. Likewise their policy of making the other division "open" rather than "mens" was also good IMO.
But it seems obvious to me that trans women would be welcomed in the women's division. 1/
@futurebird@cadenza
My (female) cousin who went to a historically women’s college made that case for their value. It was a loss to women’s higher education in the UK when the historically women’s colleges of Oxford and Cambridge were compelled to admit men “for gender equality”.
@futurebird@cadenza All the same, the existence of separate leagues is an effect of sexism, and not a solution to it. Even as it provides blessed relief it perpetuates it.
Sadly it seems that the ICF didn't see the women's division as a way of affirming that women should participate and providing a more welcoming space to do so as the number of women would grow (and drift off into the open division as already happened with the top female players)
No, these big-brain chess boys really thought that it was a biological handicap they were running! So, given that maybe scrap the whole thing. Scrap the ICF. Throw the whole chess set out and start over.
Another fun activity that was gender segregated when I was younger was D&D-- or rather I was told bluntly that "it wasn't for girls" --
When some girls at my school wanted to start a D&D club I jumped at the chance to be the advisor. Their club is now the larger one. They called it "Girls+" since one of our non-binary students preferred to join this club and the existing members didn't even hesitate about if they'd belong.
At this point they have the better two DMs IMO. So we might merge the clubs in a year or two. But can you see how having it for a bit helped them to get established, learn the ropes in a better environment?
On some level I totally get "women's chess" and wish I could have founds some when I was younger.
@futurebird you know, the same thing is happening in comedy. Comedy classes are generally co-ed, but more schools are offering women-only classes. Not because women need help in learning how to be funny, but because male comedians are so obnoxious and inhibit female students from learning and perfecting their craft.
I don't know how you have gotten from "there is a lot of sexism in chess" all the way to "men are evil" but you have.
Men aren't evil. For the record. But your responses are strange. Pamela didn't say anything to warrant what I hope was sarcasm about killing all the men.
If, when people discuss sexism, what you hear is "kill all men" and "men are evil" you are missing the point of the conversation.
Why does this topic bring up such extreme, horrible ideas for you?
Through my powers of observation I have discovered something that would shock the self-flagellating lonely hearts of the world. No matter what a person is like, no matter how they look, at any given time, at least 2-3 people have a crush on them.
Someone out there (no matter who you are) thinks you're kinda cute.
Human attraction is WIERD.
People get crushes on... bridges.
All anyone needs to do is find that person and treat them well. (like an individual to start)
@barrygoldman1@futurebird eh, I think a lot of problems people have with relationships are because people aren’t picky enough. I’ve noticed this with my male friends especially, and my friends are all great 5-star guys who deserve good partners. And that’s because they utilize the “throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks” approach. And that’s just not going to work. Women can tell when you are doing that and it’s a turnoff because you are not treating her as unique and individual. You’re playing the numbers game and seeing who will talk to you. And the only women who will speak to you will be bottom-of-the-barrel women with low self-esteem and other problems. My friends have been through the ringer with horrible women. But if they were picky, if they got REALLY clear about the kind of partner they want and ONLY approached those women who exemplify those values, they would be a LOT more successful.
I think what I see most often among my "romantically struggling" friends is they are plenty picky about who they like but not nearly concerned enough if that person likes them.
Simply focusing on who treats you with respect, who sincerely admires you, who holds you in the best esteem simplifies matters a great deal.
There is no one cute enough, or charismatic enough to be worth putting up with if they aren't attracted to you as you are. Without working hard.
@futurebird@barrygoldman1 yeah, that’s why I gave up dating. Even guys who claim to love me don’t treat me very well and I’ve never met anyone who thought I deserved to be treated well, and I guess I never will because when my heart gets broken, everyone laughs at me for being stupid enough to believe that someone could love me. Everybody, including therapists, have been telling me that there is no possible way anyone could love me my entire life.
@futurebird@cadenza You also have to (1) be able to believe they have the crush when informed of it, and (2) not be so picky that you reject the person out of hand. These were big problems for me in my youth.
It sucks that several women have been abusive to you. (Serious.)
You'll only find what you are looking for.
It's interesting how you see misogyny as "inevitable backlash" -- but you can't see how coming at a woman with these negative views about women generally is also producing a reaction. No, that's just how women "are."
And when the next woman tell you off you can say "see it happened again."
War? IDK, all I wanted was to play on the chess team.
@Bugaboo@futurebird@cadenza These are not general traits of any group, so you shouldn’t generalize. Assume the negative, and it will poison your interactions accordingly, and those interactions will then reinforce that negative. In the end, you and the people you interact with will all be miserable for it.
Can I suggest that you focus on all those good traits you listed, assume those as the default, and interact with women in that positive light? Work on a positive spiral upwards, instead of a vicious cycle.
These are choices we make. Ultimately we have power to be positive or negative people - there is always someone out there to reinforce your choice, so choose wisely.
@MichaelPorter@futurebird@cadenza I apologize. I make no excuses, except to say that sexual-frustration has driven me literally insane. For me the world is a bleak, loveless Hell, and that crushing reality colors everything I think, say, or do. I have no wish to upset anyone, only offer the perspective of someone who feels himself to be the victim of today's trend of militant feminism, of which, the pendulum has swung so far in the extreme direction that it has smashed my brains out against a brick-wall of abject despair. God was right, it is not good for a man to be alone....but women don't need men now, they seek money, and power, and love is 'weakness'.
@Bugaboo@futurebird@cadenza Okay, so we’re in “incel” territory? All I can tell you is you get out of life what you put into it. If you are going through life assuming all women are evil and see you as worthless, then you will be the architect of your own misery.
The “involuntary” aspect of the “incel” movement is bullshit. Those problems you have with women are self-fulfilling prophecies. Take a breath, chill out, and look for the good instead of assuming the bad.
I just want to add that what Michael suggests isn't easy! Can't just snap your fingers and make happen.
When men believe they have fallen outside of the correct masculine norms of success, and sexual achievement* they can get caught in painful patterns of self hate.
It's a bit like when women** have anorexia and just as difficult to address.
a deliberately disgusting way to put it
** women are the majority of those with EDs, but of course they don't just impact women.
@futurebird Oh, definitely - When we are entrenched in a particular mode of thought, it is our reality. To change things, you must first accept that what your take as reality is actually subjective, and possible to change. A huge leap for most people.
I’m pushy with advice, so here’s some for @Bugaboo - stop trying so hard with other people, and focus on yourself. First, get a meditation app like Headspace or Calm, pay for the subscription, and use it every day. It’s a 20 minute commitment. I’m not being flaky, this is how you rewire your brain. Second, make a conscious choice to take a positive path in everything you do, especially interpreting any interactions with people. It will feel foreign at first, you have to “fake it till you make it.” Those positive aspects are out there, you’ve just trained yourself to not see them. You have to train yourself back. It’s not easy, but it’s very possible. I’m confident in saying, not just for myself, that we’re hoping for the best for you.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter do you have some survey data to back that statemenet up? cuz i'm well aware that my guy friends and i had girls on the mind all the time, but that didn't stop us from being able to pursue other productive and creative interests. it did NOT tear us apart. maybe it even made us more creative.
THAT is actually an old idea, that u can sublimate sexdrive to creativity.
maybe you are describing people who are REALLY EMPTY?
that's a lot to plow thru. the article says nothing specific.
the first paper i looked at finally said pos corelation between sex frustration in relationships and anxiety. but NO correlation outside of rel. does anxiety mean 'torn up' dunno?
anyway i'd have to read ALOT of hours to see what percentage of guys with sex frustration get 'TORN UP'
i'm sure it tears SOME people up. 2% 5% 20% who knows?
I think what it "explains" it is the idea that for some men to be winners others must be losers.
That's baked in to our culture at the moment and it's not fun to be the looser.
As long as there are men who treat women like objects, who use wealth and power to shield themselves from consequences there will be men who either want to be them or who end up as collateral damage for the gross warped effects those men have on women and culture generally.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter And if women don't have sex with men, we also don't get to spread our genes. Given how much motherhood is seen as an aspect of a successful, happy life for women, this can also tear women apart...
And yet there's way less sympathy given to women. On the contrary, older childless single women often get made fun of.
I have no patience left for people who assume women's drives for sex and for parenthood are somehow "less than".
Sexual frustration paired with a toxic culture of no self-satisfaction, perhaps. But I wouldn't blame the sex drive, I'd blame the culture, and consequently look towards fixing that.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter
This doesn't sound like a conversation about sexual frustration. It sounds like a conversation about sexual obsession.
What is special about these people's "frustration' which can't be solved by, to put it bluntly, masturbating?
Not sure why you're treating the question as a joke. Of course it's not the same. But it's a remedy for "sexual frustration" so clearly it's not "sexual frustration" we're really talking about. What is it we're really talking about?
Neither do I. I'm asking you to detail why you say 'sexual frustration can drive men to dark places' but what you really mean specifically is 'not having sex with women drives men to dark places'.
That's just the same thing expressed in different words. Tell us why. Because that is clearly thing we're talking about.
See also, by the way, sex workers. If 'sex with another person' is what counts, (leaving aside questions of legality) that would also solve the problem, right?
You keep saying the same thing in different words, without wanting to examine the beliefs or feelings behind it.
What is it, exactly, about sex with another person, such that not having it "takes you to a dark place"? It must be something very important to you. Try to put it into words. Try to explain it.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter
Well clearly you don't actually want to think about what's really going on, you just want to make glib remarks and jokes. I'm giving up on you, but I encourage you to think about why that is, and the "dark place" you go to when women don't do what you want.
It's not true that these self identified incels just want sex. Because most will reject hiring someone. Further some of them are really picky turning down women who aren't attractive enough. Which is fine, but kind of calls into question that is some kind of biological imperative incomprehensible to the female mind.
There is a psychological need at play related to validation, being valued as a person, status many things (and it varies by individual.)
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter Yeah, and incel communities spend time tearing each other down, which … seems counter to the idea that they deserve sex. “Yeah, man, you’re so attractive and have your life together, women who reject you are clearly deranged” is too wholesome apparently. Having and giving support and intimate if platonic relationships is not cool according to toxic masculinity.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter imho if it was just a libido thing incels could just get on whichever antidepressant has the strongest libido-suppressing effect
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter I dunno, all I can say is, libido-suppression is real. People on SSRIs often lose interest in sex. It's very common and people often find it unpleasant, but if the problem is that people find their libido actively unpleasant maybe they should try it
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter It's not hard to get prescribed antidepressants. If it's that big a problem, you can lie to your doctor. And if you're doing that badly you might qualify as depressed or anxious enough for them anyway.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter like if you want to opt out of needing sex you probably actually can with the right drugs? ymmv obviously but it's not totally impossible and probably better than taking it out on women
I think what you're more describing is the desire for social connection, for feeling like your feelings are heard and matter, having the ability to express what's been stamped out of you by societal pressures (e.g., showing emotions in non-violent ways).
@markusl@roywig@futurebird@MichaelPorter When you're isolated, don't get incentivised to develop good social skills, cling to misogynistic ideals (because that's what you were taught), and don't have emotional outlets, you do get this jaded depressive thing happening.
See also: the male suicide rates, and how different cultures tackle that. Mental health isn't just about being same vs insane, but also about being able to process thoughts & feelings which we all have.
That's not "libido" then. It's about being a certain kind of person, with certain kind of relationships and social status.
It's not some strange quirk of the male mind-- it's a strange quirk of the values some men allow to inform their self worth.
"men should be the leaders in relationships"
"if a girl just wants to be your friend and won't have sex with you she's exploiting you." (that is, women have nothing else to offer of value as people beyond sex.)
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter Right, incels who pay for sex don't suddenly experience post-coital clarity and change their minds. No, they keep hating women (and themselves) just as much, if not more. It's not about the biology, it's about your social position
As the father of two young adult men (neither incels), I can tell you there are strong, dysfunctional forces pushing men to feel not just low-status but invisible. A lot of this is loss of communal, social spaces but also does stem from unintentional bad consequences of women's empowerment (generally a good thing). As a result, frustrated men too often blame their plight on feminism itself.
tldr; Society is broken in new ways, not just the men.
@PixelJones@roywig@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter women’s empowerment absolutely does not cause men to feel bad! It might expose a man’s fragility if a woman’s empowerment leads her to leave a bad marriage/relationship or simply to not act subservient to men. Needing to dominate other people is not only a moral failing but is psychologically unhealthy. Help should made available but forced subservience is not it
wtf kind of spoiled baby shit is this, that 'feeling invisible' counts as hardship? what else do they expect? constant attention they haven't done anything to earn?
(You're coming off a bit trollish w/ that aggressive response. I'll respond only if you keep it civil.)
Yes, invisibility is a hardship (see entire history of civil rights, womens rights, LGBTQ rights).
Since when does anybody need to "earn" visibility? Shy girls/boys used to "earn" visibility by simply showing up in a variety of public, social spaces, now increasingly extinct.
Online dating apps make all but the top 5% males pretty invisible (data shows).
@PixelJones@futurebird don't patronize me by trying to equate women's / LGBT liberation with whiny males who are sad because nobody considers them exceptional enough to pay them special attention. women's and LGBT invisibility are not feelings - they were / are conspicuous absences in representation, whether in media, discourse, or employment. young men have never been underrepresented in these real-world, measurable ways in any point in history. the comparison is frankly offensive.
There are two problems w/ your argument: 1) We're not talking about media or cultural representation. We're talking about actual one-on-one visibility & assumption of respect. That has clearly eroded for men. 2) You're right that at no "point in history" has this happened before. We're at an inflection point where the tree of feminism has bloomed (minus an ERA which needs to happen) but there are unintended, unexpected thorns on that tree. We'll adapt but haven't fully yet.
Nope. Married for 30 years to a woman w/ 3 times my education. My father is married to a woman (my mother, of course) with twice the education of his, a bigger title and a larger paycheck for decades.
No emasculation in sight. Feminism is great! What's not great is bitter feminism weaponizing men & telling women men are only brutish threats or materialistic status trophies.
The objectification tables have turned. Only fair, right? But not humane whatever your gender.
The attempts to reverse progress non-withstanding there are still many areas where we still need improvement. Domestic violence and rape, the way that caregiving work (for children, sick people, old people etc) still is mostly done by women but not highly valued (either when done professionally or uncompensated work in the home)
Likewise there needs to be a greater effort to dismantle the "all or nothing" view on masculinity that leaves many men locked out. Can we do it?
@futurebird
I only just followed you today. You are the most patient person with what I'll call young male darkness I've ever read.
It's decades behind me and I've been in a wonderful relationship for ten years. But I got into a toxic marriage to burn that darkness away. I spent many years of my life on it and I gave away having kids.
I wish I'd read your words when I was 26 and going through it. I don't know if it would have helped me break out of the spiral sooner but maybe it would have.
Mostly, financially independent women are freed up from focusing on how much a guy makes. I don't think anyone totally ignores such things- but when women can take care of themselves they can focus more on the quality of the relationship rather than "can he provide"
Until recently women in the US rarely had financial independence. This meant living with mom & dad until you could get married. People married early, and sometimes under duress because abortions were not safe and widely available and not only did being a single mother come with social stigma but it was financially even worse than it is now.
But if you listen to conservatives this is exactly what they miss. People getting married young! Not planning kids! just let it happen!
@PixelJones "The objectification tables have turned. Only fair, right?"
Oh my god.
Reads like "Sexism has been defeated. Now only men are oppressed."
Sexism has always harmed both men and women, though the harm to women is more material physical, deadly. I've been trying to get you to think about exactly what has changed materially in the past 50 years for women.
Because when you say there are drawbacks, or problems with feminism it's important to be clear about what we are discussing.
I didn't say that "sexism is defeated" any more than I'd say "racism is defeated."
No, a sign of progress (in a way) is that women now feel empowered to objectify men (only not by just sex appeal but by status, earning potential, etc).
They aren't empowered by feminism alone but by all the women who defer/opt-out of dating. Smaller pool of women can be more selective.
Also, women here say they just want "emotional maturity". How do they assess that from afar?
--Superficially-
Increased independence and no-fault divorce had a big impact. The good news is marriages that people get in to now are less likely to end in divorce.High divorce rates were a generational corrections of sorts. It's been a positive thing for domestic violence, child abuse, and general happiness.
These are the big "feminist things" that have happened. I think they are all objectively great. I'm watching as conservatives try to claw that little bit of freedom back from young women.
I've already given some examples & hesitate to give more that verge into cliche but what happens when "go girl, you deserve better, you can do anything" itself becomes accepted cliche:
Women delay family & focus on career. Single men, an intrusion on that, are left in a holding pattern.
Once women are "available", high-status men are only too happen to indulge women "dating up" & exercising their sexual freedom.
Please no hate: Female empowerment is good but ... /1
@PixelJones@futurebird Maybe I'm missing something here. "Single men... are left in a holding pattern." Presumably then the demographically equivalent women are also single, right?
Sounds like the elephant in the room is, why have we socialized men not to have full, rewarding lives and relationships outside of romantic relationships?
There is an elephant in the room but you missed it in my previous post. In a previous time (not romanticizing just contrasting), Average Janes and Average Joes with prospects or not would self-filter and find each other. Now, Average Janes can/do defer dating/family & then believe they deserve high-status men who are happy to indulge them & their sexual freedom.
If you think Average Joes are suddenly, collectively opting out of love for no reason, they're not.
"Women delay family & focus on career. Single men, an intrusion on that,"
Not really seeing how single men are an intrusion on career.
And let's be real, most people, especially women don't have careers: it's work. Because we need income. What has changed is women having their own bank accounts and credit cards-- and that financial autonomy makes marriage less of an imperative.
Those are all good points & ring true. Nothing wrong w/ marriage not being an imperative.
I'm just a systems guy. If you take a system that is balanced (even if it is bad or inequitable in some way) & then throw out a balancing "imperative" it becomes unbalanced (& maybe inequitable) in a new way. That's where I think we are.
@futurebird@ignova removing that repugnant person from my reply because he makes me want to vomit, I just want to say you've been very kind and patient with this all day and these men's replies reek of entitlement, imagine having the societal protection to remain so petulantly unself-aware your entire life, my God
One thing missing in this conversation is woman now need to work outside the home- raising a family on a single income has become more difficult, housing, education and daycare more expensive.
Woman are also expected to be primary caregivers to kids, maintain family obligations and take care of their husbands emotional needs.
Settling for an emotionally immature man who blames feminism for his difficulty finding a wife means at least 2 full time jobs.
@PixelJones@futurebird I'm gonna be honest, every time I read the phrase ~~~high-status men~~~ my eyeballs about roll out of my head, so it's safer if I let this thread drop. But I would really encourage you to think long and hard about why you think women are happy with the imaginary status quo you've described, and men are not. Most women aren't waiting for Prince Charming to show up later in their lives... they're just getting on with their lives.
Obviously "high status men" is shorthand but I encourage you to look at statistics on dating apps (a surrogate for women's real world behavior, too).
Young women strongly (almost exclusively) favor "high-status males" over even above average men (no matter the status/attractiveness of the women) & those men are happy to be "swiped" & go on dates w/ no future.
Women are "empowered" to be as shallow as men now. Is that progress?
"Young women strongly (almost exclusively) favor "high-status males" over even above average men "
Dating apps are one little distorted corner of the world of relationships. And interlaced with hooking up-- which is fine but not the same as looking for a long term partner.
All of this sounds very alien to me. I know women with Masters degree with husbands who never went to college. Though, knowing the guys I think they're "above average" just not in a shallow way
@futurebird@PixelJones@sallyexactly Yep. Women aren’t deliberately “delaying having a family.” They’re doing what I did, which is getting an education and then getting a job and living life. I never meant to be in my 40s and single. I figured at some point I would meet someone, but it hasn’t worked out. I reached associate director in my last career and am senior manager in my current one. I haven’t been “chasing” money or power. 1/
For sure, I just gave my Dad and myself as examples where our wives married "down" in a way.
So, these larger trends are gross generalities. If decades ago you said "all men are pigs & objectify women" that would've been both kind of true & an unfair stereotype. If women now, on average, feel less imperative to "settle" & empowered to defer families, they are now in a power position where men are not.
Flipping the power equation is fine but balance is better.
I agree that there are the social forces you describe but I don't see how they are the result of feminism.
I just think it's changed the expression.
When there was no no fault divorce or abortion a guy could get (& keep) a wife more easily. Marriage makes men happier in some ways... but were those really good marriages?
It might be easier to "lead" in a relationship if women have fewer career options.
The price for women is high. The "benefits" for men are questionable.
@futurebird
I'm for all the things you just said & honestly don't think that birth control, divorce, professional options, etc., by themselves, dis-empower men or drive incel discontent.
Feminism isn't the cause of broken male singlehood, just one of the catalysts along w/ online culture, dating apps, female college rates, delayed reproduction, high mortgage rates, etc.
"When you're accustomed to privilege, (a slight movement towards) equality feels like oppression".
Men are still powerful, they still control almost the entire world, maybe just a bit less than they did 20 years ago.
@futurebird@PixelJones Personally, i don't want to live in a world where a woman feel any sense of having to stay with me. If the only way I can convince someone to stay with me is "you can't legally leave" or "you can't get rid of the child i forced on you", I've already failed.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter that IS the most annoying thing about incels. They whine that no woman wants them but then they think they are entitled to supermodels. Back in the day, before nerds became toxic, boy nerds would eventually find girl nerds and they would settle down and have nerdlings. They might end up marrying later, but the nerds would find each other and it would be beautiful. I mean, my parents found each other. While they were both insanely hot, they were in general not popular with the opposite sex due to poor social skills. They still found each other. Now incels reject the very women who would be good for them because they aren’t supermodels.
incels have a similar relationship to sex as rapists do— as in, it's only tangentially related to sex, and what they really want is power and violence. power over a woman (or child, if we're being honest about them,) and whatever future men she may or may not have sex with. to them, women are just objects to perform their philosophy upon and exist to be the subject of violence, while men and the toxic relationships between them are at the core. it's not about sex at all imo.
When you get to the heart of it, like most people, they want to be loved for who they are-- but have decided this is impossible from anyone they could ever love back.
And so while feeling sex-starved might be in the mix -- it's that self hate and loneliness that's really keeping it going.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter The male myth of 'sex starved' to explain away their behaviour is very deeply rooted in society. Incels want women whom they know to be WAY outside their league, for many reasons, and so they hate women because they cannot/will not hate themselves for being such twats.
@markusl@Judeet98@futurebird Men don’t all have strong sex drives. It’s a broad spectrum. Even in an individual, it waxes and wanes. And then for any two people that have similar urges, their conscious sense of self-control may vary wildly.
Some people mistake their urges and instincts as some kind of concrete reality that they don’t have any conscious control over. These people need to learn that self-control and modification of behaviour is possible.
I’m not talking about repressing your urges and feeling miserable about it as a result. I’m talking about understanding what makes you tick and getting control over it, and being content with the result.
As @reneestephen said, women have been doing it forever. Men are certainly capable of it, too.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter They use it as an all-encompassing excuse, a get-out-of-jail-free card...and which also assumes that women DON'T have an equal sex-drive. It's the "poor me, my sex drive controls me"...nah, pathetic excuses-R-me more like.
@markusl Ok but the "biological imperative" premise is wrong and it keeps popping back up in the thread as a thing. You're "spreading your seed" to whom exactly?--women have the exact same imperative. But unlike men, women are socialized to strongly repress that urge, instead of treat it as a symbol of their fundamental womanhood.
Incel culture isn't about sex. That's the symptom, not the cause.
OK. Maybe.
I don't think this matters at all though if we are talking about the incel issue. Since the issue there isn't about sex drive.
That's what I feel like you keep missing.
It even seems likely to me that men might "crave" sex more on average. But there are still women with more sex drive than most men, and men with less than most women. You know like how human height works. (though I don't think we have a definitive result here)
@markusl@futurebird Would it be helpful to suggest that hypergamy in people means that men generally worry more about quantity of partners, while women worry about quality? Far more men can’t find a partner at all, while women have far more to fear from a bad partner or jilted suitor. This is not something an individual person can change and it also isn’t something that is necessarily better for women - the grass isn’t always actually greener.
@markusl Sexual frustration is a defining feature of life that transcends humanity and is unchanging. Best way to deal with it may be to attempt to find fulfillment in other areas of life rather than letting it consume you - I know, tired and cliched advice, but you can’t solve sexual frustration by hyperfocusing on it. Just by finding other outlets.
@markusl In addition, men are actually happier in places with greater degree of gender equality. In many ways, it benefits your average, unexceptional man if women are less dependent on men for social status. I don’t know if the grass is greener when it comes to less feminist societies.
@markusl Exactly. Way healthier to view women as peers rather than as commodities in the dating game. I feel like my social life would be dead in a culture without women’s liberation in which women and men are kept separate and can’t easily interact evenly.
@markusl@reneestephen@Judeet98@futurebird It certainly is biological, and there’s no denying that it can be a powerful urge. But we also have these big brains that give us control over those powerful urges. Those urges don’t serve current society well. (In the “bonk a woman over the head and drag her back to the cave” sense)
@reneestephen@markusl@Judeet98@futurebird I’m not trained in psychology, but I think it’s fair to say that a direct comparison won’t work. There are biological differences in the psychological makeup of men and women (with the caveat that any categorization is extremely broad, fuzzy, and usually wrong…) that lead to differences in behaviour arising from that biological imperative. The tendency for men to be more aggressive/violent is not solely due to societal influence. I think.
No one here claims that men crave sex because of socialisation. The important question is: How do people deal with sexual frustration? Do they blame others? How do they cope? And that absolutely has to do with the culture we live in and socialisation.
By the way, I always wonder how cis women would report their sex drives if none of us had our ovulations surpressed by hormonal birth control* ?
*) It works for many people, don't want to bad-mouth it, there's a reason it exists.
And maybe add to that weird unrealistic expectations for what a partner might be like. Or ingrained ideas that not having a girlfriend who "rates high" is just another thing to be ashamed of-- rather than considering what they want it's more about what others will see.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter
He found it impossible that my wife and I could derive anything from our relationship beyond a transaction of material wealth for sex.
Nothing I could say about my experiences could convince him about other aspects of our companionship and interaction being real or valid.
He left the conversation convinced that I've been deluding myself for two decades and that my wife would "trade up" at the first opportunity.
2/2
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter I’ve spent most of my life as a single man, and this claim is total bullshit. Nobody’s mental and emotional state is so thoroughly dominated by any one thing, and if you’re stuck in a dark place you might need a therapist before you could be any good to a girlfriend. The stigma against and lack of access to mental healthcare make a lot of things worse, but thinking you need sex to avoid madness is total bullshit
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter there isn’t anything to “hold together”, I just live my own life and didn’t harass or stalk or assault anyone
“Incles” aren’t a result of men being “punished by their genes” (that’s not a thing), but of a whole bunch of external social influences (most of which are not sexual). Preventing the harm they do wouldn’t be about coping, it would be about nurturing healthy communities (most of which is also not sexual)
Most of the time these guys are convinced they aren't attractive enough physically to do well in romance. This is why it reminds me very much of how eating disorders function in women.
Most incels that I've known have a very distorted view of their own appearance. And think that unless they change they are doomed.
Some buy in to the idea that "money and power" could be a replacement for good looks-- but there's also a lot of cynicism about women around that one.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter I despise incels, but it is clearly true that it is tougher for men to find partners than it is for women (and it is tougher for women to avoid bad partners than it is for men). Feminism actually makes this less of an issue by rendering women less dependent on men for status/security. But I do think to combat inceldom we need to be honest about human sexual dynamics.
@DarLose "but it is clearly true that it is tougher for men to find partners than it is for women"
Is it though?
There are still notions about who should "initiate" a relationship and this results in men paying less attention to the women who are interested in them than they do to the women they are interested in.
Men also "have to" do a lot of asking and put up with a lot of rejections (and women have to keep rejecting)
All because of squeamishness about who should ask.
@futurebird@DarLose I know several kind, loyal, smart, hard-working, attractive women in their 30s and 40s who have been single more or less the entire time I've known them. I don't think anyone's pining, but it seems like there's a broad swath of women many men just do not see. Because of unrealistic expectations? Because of misogyny? Not clear, but I've been noticing it for a while.
@futurebird@DarLose An episode of If Books Could Kill from a month ago covered the research into how things switched from "prospective bride and family choose a suitor" to "men woo women in public spaces" largely within living memory of the authorship of The Rules: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2040953/13118682
@futurebird@DarLose
Whose squeamishness, though? It sounds like you're saying it's men enforcing that, but I've mostly heard guys say they wish women would come out and ask. (Of course I'm sure that's not universal.)
I wonder if what you say about men paying less attention is the flip side of guys' complaints about girls' "hints" being "too subtle". I'm sure the ideal solution would involve meeting in the middle somehow.
@futurebird I don’t think it has to do with individual psychology, just supply and demand. An average women will have more suitors if she wants. Although I do think age plays a role - women are disadvantaged heavily as they age, men aren’t. Older men have an advantage over young men, hence incels being mostly young men.
As a man, I'd like to see some data on "it is clearly true that it is tougher for men to find partners than it is for women," because this doesn't align with my experience.
Most people are heterosexual and (at least in theory) monogamous. In a heterosexual monogamous relationship, either both a man and a woman find a partner, or neither do. Either way it's the same for both.
You can see it on dating apps. Men are overwhelmingly more likely to swipe right and a far smaller proportion of men are likely to receive right swipes.
People are serial monogamists - they do not only date a single person. And challenged to monogamy almost always run one way - men in some cultures through history have practiced polygamy.
I've read a WHO study (which I can try to find if you'd like) which concluded that women tend to have the same number of lifetime partners as men, and that in both cases that expected number of partners is two.
Perhaps relevantly, they also concluded that due to social expectations, women are more likely to lie about their number of partners to make the number lower, while men are more likely to lie to make the number higher.
@passenger@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter Is that because men and women have the same number of suitors or because one sex is choosier? I don’t think number of sexual partners actually matters or supports/contradicts either argument. The data I’d suggest for suitors is simply dating app data - women have orders of magnitude more suitors than men.
I will give you sources that male competition for mates is important to human sexual selection :
It seems impossible to disentangle social pressures from hormones or biological tendencies for something like "being choosy"
I do know that despite not being that old I grew up with a lot of people from family, church, friends, even the less stuffy people in my life letting me know that getting a reputation for being "fast" or "easy" was Very Bad. To be fair it is in some ways dangerous. Being seen as sexually assertive makes a woman a target for sexual violence.
So, talking about "competition for mates" or "hypergamy" in people like we are a bunch of lab animals seems ludicrous.
If you asked me if I had a strong sex drive I'd say "no" -- but I honestly have no idea if that's true or just something I've conditioned myself to believe out of fear of being shamed, or treated like a woman who said "yes."
I'll never forget my mom telling me that it was important to have a "good" reputation if you didn't there is no recourse if you are attacked.
I guess the constant threat of social death and violence makes it hard to really known oneself.
I don't expect it's much more clear for men. They get a different set of over-riding ideas. Mainly that they should be ready and able to "perform" at all times. Being a virgin, or not having enough partners is less manly.
So how can men really know what they want with those pressures?
@futurebird I mean, we aren’t lab animals, we are just humans. It is not dehumanizing to acknowledge we are biological creatures and we have highly complex and predictable social lives. Nature vs. nurture seems like a false dichotomy to me because we are a social animal, our behavior is learned to a great degree. But what we learn is still predictable. If anything, it is remarkable how little difference between our sexes compared to other primates.
@futurebird Oh, absolutely, women’s sexuality is policed. But even the people doing the policing often would say they are doing it for the good of the woman - due to negative consequences of relationships for women. Many women will passionately argue for patriarchy and view assaults on patriarchy as threatening to their safety. Especially if they grew up in patriarchal environments where violence against women was a hazard.
@futurebird I would totally agree women being choosy is absolutely a function of socialization - but also that socialization isn’t random, its common across diverse human cultures, with some variations based on who passes down property. Some rote biological influence cause people with more testosterone behave more assertively, take more risks, are more sexually aggressive, etc
I think the more urgent project is to create an environment where people have a chance of finding out who they really are absent social pressures.
It's not healthy or good that sex is tied so deeply to shame for many people. It's not good that young men feel "less than" because they haven't had dozens of partners.
Maybe once in the clear we could find out if there are any real difference in tendencies, but that's all it's likely to be I expect.
@futurebird Yeah, I agree with that. Men shouldn’t feel pressure to have many partners and women shouldn’t feel pressure to not have many partners. I think access to effective birth control and strong reproductive rights for women are pretty close to the most important political issues of our time. So much strife is caused by how dangerous sex with men or saying no to men can be for women.
@futurebird@DarLose
I was a teenager in the ’80s, and when I look back on the effed-up things we boys were taught about women and sex... oof. It was so not healthy.
@DarLose@passenger@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter Who are you swiping for? The hot chick or the plain one? Big breasts or fat? Assuming that women have it easier in the dating scene is being extremely self absorbed.
I never implied women have it easier and I’m not sure how that is “self absorbed.” Women also will deal with lots more harassment and unwanted overtures and are more likely to see a jilted lover insult them. Men insult women after getting rejected all the time.
Yeah, that is the point I’m making. Women are more selective because the risks for them are dramatically elevated. Women may have a greater quantity of men potentially in their dating pool, but the quality of those men is a lot lower. Women have a lot more to lose in the dating game then men do - both the risk of violence and the risk of social ostracization.
@DarLose@passenger@futurebird@markusl I've known a lot of women who would disagree with the size of their dating pool. Too many end up with dregs because they are desperate. You are in a fantasy land about it being easier for women in general to find a partner.
Only a few of the dozens of people you have decided you kinda like reply.
or
Dozens of people contact you but nearly all are just hitting on you and some are harassing you. Only a few are people you'd like.
I don't think one is obviously "better" -- and the whole harassment thing makes me wonder if it would be all that bad to have to get rejected much more often.
There is also this trope from media where a guy picks out a girl and just wears her down, or (at best maybe) wins her over.
I knew a lot of young men who said they were struggling with romance just because I was always arounds so many STEM nerds. Never once did any of those sad boys say yes when I asked them out. One was annoyed that I was asking, others were like "but your not a girl girl"
I knew other women in those circles and they reported the same thing.
@futurebird@DarLose Hey, did you ever run into the situation where you asked a guy out or told him you were into him, and he just kind of froze, like, you had broken the script by initiating, and he was completely unable to work out how to respond at all?
These guys weren't looking for "someone" there would be maybe 3 or 4 girls in particular that they liked... and often people who they didn't have much in common with-- Or even minor celebrities who'd they'd never met.
And none of that was going to ever work out so you'd have to hear some "nobody loves me" sob story.
Meanwhile girls learn to pay attention to the people who seem to like you. In part just for safety, but also there is an expectation you at least give this a chance.
@futurebird@DarLose That's exactly it. In my teens and early twenties I'd get fixated on people over and over, this strange emotional commitment to someone I barely knew who'd maybe been friendly once or twice, and this is just a bad way to start out.
@futurebird@DarLose what kept it from getting worse was that I was feminist enough to think they didn't actually owe me anything. But I think I just had to mature past this kind of emotional reaction. It's hard to intentionally suppress.
I think it's a normal stage of first experiencing romantic feelings to get really fixated on first crushes -- it's literally a new emotion! A new way of wanting to relate to someone. Very easy to think that if Jeff Goldblum didn't marry you... well death is the only other option.
--or uh... whoever, right?
(that's the more extreme example, but there were other less absurd ones before I realized just pining wouldn't cause a love story to happen.)
What got me about the sad boys was that they were often people who didn't look after themselves much. They didn't dress very nicely, they didn't do a lot of personal hygiene stuff very regularly, and were often not...classically attractive, let us say.
Which is none of it a reason not to have love.
What is, is that they inevitably only were interested in those girls who were conventionally attractive, performed femininity to a high standard, and so on.
So we have guys who if rated by most het women would come in below average, feeling entitled to women who would be by any measure out of their league.
Why? Because people with that level of beauty get much more their pick of whom they want - why should they want some guy who can't be bothered to learn to shave properly, or comb his hair?
It's just kinda funny, is all. They ignore wonderful, intelligent nerdy women right beside them (like you), and yearn for impossible targets, then rail against women for not responding to their overly entitled claims.
@oldladyplays@futurebird@DarLose I feel there's also objectification going on. There's a point where the goal of finding a connection with anyone turns into a numbers game. That combined with a feeling of entitlement is what causes that self fulfilling prophecy.
We can tell when someone sees us as an end goal, a means to sex, rather than a meaningful connection. No one likes to be reduced to a thing, a means to an end.
You're right about the objectification, and I think a lot of it is down to male status games.
Like, "he might have a bigger car than me and he might have a better job than me, but I have a model on my arm, so I win and they're both cucks."
He doesn't care about the model, he may not even care about having sex with her, but he does care about the other men's opinions of him and the relative status it demonstrates.
@onepict@passenger@oldladyplays@futurebird If I've accidentally said something clever at some point you're gonna have to remind me 'cause I honestly don't remember that :P
@ifixcoinops
It was when you explicitly linked our consent o matic web landscape with rape culture. I can't remember the precise toot. It was about 2 years ago.
The way that sites use cookie popups with dark patterns to try to get us to change our minds on tracking etc, like a creepy guy at a bar who keeps hitting on you, and ignores your constant no with "have you changed your mind now?"
@onepict@passenger@oldladyplays oh god yeah. I'm not saying those faux-consent things are designed by rapists, but if a rapist were to design one then that's exactly what it'd look like
@futurebird@DarLose
I can understand people have infatuations or arbitrary specific things that excite or quash their interests, some really shallow, some less. And maybe not everyone has thought about it enough to really give a true or considerate response in romantic matters. But...
@futurebird@DarLose This. I was told that I could just go into a club and pick any man and have someone to go home with just because I was a 'girl' - it wasn't true! I learned by asking and being turned down.
The trouble is, I learned from that to be more cautious in feeling the other person out, while former male friends I didn't fancy just wouldn't stop asking until they became stalkers and I had to drop all ties. It's heartbreaking, not least because you learn the friendship wasn't real.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter
Incels don't do well with women because they don't treat a woman as a person with independent wants and needs. They treat women as a sexbot, and if they meet resistance, their default is to dominate and demand. They blame feminism because women now have options, and are no longer socialized to accept male domination as their lot in life. Try moving to Afghanistan, incels.
These things are all part of the dynamic, but in addition to biology and self defeating patterns the incel brings a vast sense of entitlement: that the fantasy depictions of romantic and economic success and sexual prowess in media are his by nature, and so failure to achieve it requires the invention of a villain preventing him from reaching his ‘potential’.
@futurebird@markusl@MichaelPorter this is mainly because most of the time men (I include myself) aren't attractive enough physically to attract potential partners, and aren't prepared to put the effort in to making themselves physically attractive.
Guys, I'm not saying you have to get fit, and I'm not saying there's one true way to get groomed. But if you won't do these things, quit whining.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter So, I've always found this so hard to relate to. I think my sex drive is lower than the average man's, but how much? Touch starvation and loneliness I get. Same for shame at feeling like a societal reject or a failure at gender expectations. But horniness just feels like a problem you can solve yourself, you know? How much of this is my experience diverging, and how much is other men conflating the other stuff I listed?
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter Sorry, a whole bunch of replies loaded after I wrote this but I am gonna leave it up because I still think it's relevant even if more redundant than I intended.
@markusl@futurebird@MichaelPorter This is very interesting. When I was alone for a long time, I think all these drives got kind of tied up in a somewhat toxic/creepy stew of ambiguous intentions and signals that I wasn't fully aware of myself.
@anne_twain@MichaelPorter@futurebird it’s because they, as Sylvia Plath put it, keep feeding the machine (women) kindness coins hoping sex will fall out. And then they get homicidally angry because the transaction fails. But god forbid any of us should point out that approaching relationships transactionally is a sure route to failure.
Maybe that's why these kinds of guys think all women are gold-diggers-- guys who think of relationships like transactions attract their female counterparts.
@futurebird@anne_twain@MichaelPorter but they don’t have any money!! Even gold-diggers don’t want them. Seriously, every guy I know who complains about gold-diggers are broke af.
Being alone sucks. Weird ideas about gender aren't going to help you, in fact they will make your problem worse.
I'm a "militant feminist" -- I'm the most feminist and militant you can possibly be. I'll propose I'm not the source of your woes but rather we may share a common problem.
The same cultural patterns that allow some men to abuse and exploit women also keep some men profoundly isolated. Those are exactly the patterns worth questioning.
@futurebird I appreciate your candour, and patience. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on these issues, and I'd be the first to confess that my view of women is warped, and deluded. ...I really don't know what else to say, so shall retreat into silence. Have a pleasant day, ma'am.
@futurebird@Bugaboo@MichaelPorter ooh, that was well-written. To top that, I have a friend who is objectively ugly, and he knows it, and doesn’t care. And he has ZERO problem getting women, even when he was 400 pounds (he’s lost half his weight since). Women are attracted to him because he is self-confident, and he’s also a decent and kind guy. He has a swagger that makes him sexy despite his looks (I’ve felt it). And he doesn’t have money either. Right now he’s being pursued by a number of younger women (as in young enough to be his daughter) which he finds embarrassing because he prefers women his own age.
@futurebird@Bugaboo@MichaelPorter I’m not saying that looks and physical attraction don’t matter, because they do. You can’t have a serious relationship with someone you’re not physically attracted to. But what makes up attraction is way more than looks. Looks are a tiny part of what makes a person attractive to others. So many other factors lead to sex appeal. I’m objectively not beautiful but I still had a short career as a model that I maintained by chutzpah and confidence alone.
@futurebird@Bugaboo@MichaelPorter another lesson in “looks don’t matter as much as you think they do” is a personal one. I’m objectively cute (no beauty, but cute) but I didn’t know it because I was told all my life I was ugly. I was able to learn in college that I wasn’t, but I still wasn’t popular with men. But someone on my floor was. She always had a minimum of five boyfriends and men were constantly competing for her attention. And objectively, she looked like a potato. She is the kind of gal you’d see at Walmart late at night. But she believed she was beautiful so men perceived her that way. So I borrowed her self-confidence and swagger and became much more popular.
@cadenza@futurebird@MichaelPorter Yes, confidence (and personality) is an aphrodisiac, and you've heard that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it is that men can be captivated by the way a woman tilts her head, walks, or smiles, or perhaps he can't even understand why. Certain it is that women make assumptions about what men desire, which are often wrong, for example that men are averse to overweight ladies (often the opposite is true), or that bigger lips, or breasts are automatically winning (the opposite is true), and the persistent delusion that cougars in their 50's, and 60's are unsexy, and that's definitely untrue.
@Bugaboo@futurebird@MichaelPorter exactly. And the same applies to men. We keep telling men like you that it’s not your “ugliness” we find unattractive but your self-perception which feeds into ugly and unattractive attitudes. Go touch grass. Get out of your head and do things in the community. Try not to project the ugliness you are currently feeling and be open to the idea that the world is quite different from how you’re currently perceiving it. Don’t worry about finding a partner; just go out and live your life. When you enjoy your own life, the partner will show up. People are attracted to happy people and no one can make you happy but you.
@futurebird@Bugaboo@MichaelPorter the difference is that such angsty person isn’t projecting hatred wherever they go. I mean, yeah, when I was young, I was often seriously depressed and it didn’t seem to blunt my attractiveness for men, but I also wasn’t screeching ALL MEN ARE EVIL and NO ONE WANTS ME BECAUSE I’M UGLY!! I was usually sad because a particular guy I wanted didn’t want me, but I wasn’t blaming an entire gender for that.
It's kind of a known problem that one of the reasons sexism is hard to address is because if you bring up sexism at all... no matter how gentle you are about pointing out the problem some people will see you as an angry mean screaming radical man hater who wants to kill all men.
It shuts down the whole conversation and allows the sexism to continue. To be clear: you should work to really listen to what people (esp women talking about sexism) are saying to you.
@futurebird@Bugaboo@cadenza It's important for we men to realize that even when we think we're helping we might not be.
Case in point, I had a post that would have agreed and built upon what you posted, when I realized I was still doing the man thing and all that was needed was that I completely agree with you and a boost.
@futurebird Thank you for this–it’s important to remember that exclusion effect. Probably because I’m in the “obnoxious dude” demographic I had overlooked it, even though we played around with gender segregation in one of the schools I taught at many years ago.
One thing we tried one year was creating two segregated grade 10 science classes. I think the girl’s class was a great success. The teacher that taught the boy’s class was probably ready to retire by the end of it 😄
In another year, a colleague formed a “women's engineering club,” with the goal of giving girls the same tinkering experience that boys were encouraged to have. She solicited old appliances, engines, etc. from the staff and the girls would take them apart and figure out what made them tick. One of the girls was showing me what she had learned about a two-stroke engine (I think), and in our conversation I remarked on the tendency of boys to step in and take over. Right on cue one of my male students happened by, and started mansplaining the engine to her - we had a good laugh at his expense 😊
Those and other experiences convinced me that girls can do quite nicely without boys, but the boys really benefit from having girls around, mostly in social development…
Real talk though, now that I've been doing this for years, with groups of girls, boys, and mixed...
I'm trying to figure out how to approach what I'm seeing as often confirming (not 100% of course) "gender tendencies" when it comes to tech/engineering et al...
I think it's something like, "STEM" doesn't just need more women, it needs to be more "women-oriented," (and then maybe not exist because it excludes humanities, and again I have a stem nonprofit)
@jrm4@futurebird This is a really good point. STEM fields have approaches and practices that were shaped by their predominantly male membership, historically. Just that alone would turn off someone who had a different perspective. So you have a chicken and egg problem, unless you really fight to change the status quo.
There are all kinds of gender differences in how men and women think and react to things around them. I honestly don’t know how much of it is shaped by circumstances vs. nature - I remember a study on how male and female students were teated differently by teachers. There were all kinds of practices that discouraged girls:
Boys tended to be asked hard questions, or questions that required a multistep approach, while girls were asked simple response questions.
If a boy got something wrong, they were encouraged to try again. If a girl got something wrong, the teacher moved on to someone else, usually a boy.
And so on. These practices were observed with male and female teachers. So the next generation is shaped.
(Knowing all this, I really tried to do the opposite, just to achieve a little balance)
@futurebird
At our school, we were struggling to get girls to sign up for science electives and after school clubs. Literally, we had zero girls participate. So we offered a Girls' STEM club one year. The following year, 60% of our science electives and clubs participants were girls. We had pushback from families who were mad that their boys couldn't attend Girls' STEM club. But, if we want historically excluded groups to participate in those things, sometimes we have to provide a safe on ramp.
@futurebird I completely understand the reasoning behind having a girls’ team or club, for more or less the reasons you’ve already laid down.
That said, though, having any gender segregation at all does make me uncomfortable and can lead to me feeling excluded, since it would force me — someone who doesn’t identify with either traditional gender — to “pick a side”, so to speak.
@futurebird I once dated a woman who attended a women's college, and it was the same kind of thing; it was nice to be in an environment where they could be active in class without being shouted down by high-volume mansplaining. One more thing we guys don't notice the same way fish don't notice water....
i/: They obviously didn't understand #BigBangTheory.
Probably didn't get it. So, no real nerds.
They obviously would've lost against you all the time.
Understandable, thus, that they did not want to mingle. i/
@futurebird
We did manage to have a female player in our high-school-age D&D group back in the late ‘70s, but it was solely because two of the players were emancipated from their families at 16 (for reasons I never knew) and lived together, which made their apartment a perfect game-playing venue.
@futurebird This made me chuckle. If any female would have wanted to play AD&D with us back in the late 80s/early 90s we would have been very excited about it (and awkward). Every chance I did get was fun though.
Not for girls, how stupid. It’s not competitive sports, it’s a hobby. Only requirement for a hobby is that you behave (same rules for everyone).
(Competitive sports are massively elitist and the very concept is exclusive to the core. I think it’s all just unhealthy.)
The "Girls+" things was a "The Kids Are All Right" moment for me. The non-binary student had told me they wanted to join I spent the day fretting over if this would be 'a problem' (As a teacher, I don't tell them what to think about such matters and tend to be pretty careful about that.)
But, when I walked in, they breezily informed me: "Sam* has joined and, oh now the club is called Girl+'s D&D"
@futurebird I think those kids correctly identified the issue, and adding a plus to the name effectively resolved it. They're lucky to have an advisor like you!
@futurebird@cadenza Pretty much can't find fault in anything you've said here. I think without getting more radical about gender or a massive social shift in how boys are raised and impacted by their environment, I can't think of a better solution. However I also get why the "separate but equal" solution is deeply frustrating to a lot of people.
@futurebird The bit where titles are returned if you detransition is just so wild to me.
So you’re telling me that you can receive an award for merit, but that merit temporarily disappears only to pop back into existence when you’re “behaving correctly”?
It really lays bare that even they don’t believe the bullshit “natural advantage” argument.
@futurebird the most ugly part of this bigot-spew is that it's retroactive: as I read it, the titles being rescinded could have been earned entirely before any transition.
@futurebird JFC. This makes no sense at all. What does gender, cis, trans or whatever the fuck have to do with a game that is mental? Let people be, FFS.
@futurebird I didn't even know there was a woman's chess. Like, what, are the brains supposed to be different???
What does one's sex identify have to do with brains???
In that case the International chess org have NO right to call them selves a federation then. In star trek the federation is made up on many different people, from different planets across the Alpha Quadrant, all working together and respecting tolerance, inclusion and collaboration in the name of peace, and improvement of knowledge etc.
Here on Fedi we are similar and welcome #Trans people equally,
So this chess federation is nothing of the sort when it comes to tolerance and inclusion.
Well Vulcans play Cal-toe which is far more complex I think it was the episode where tuvok falls for a holodeck character, and kim wants to learn how to play.
So how realistic is my suggestion to setting up a rival chess league. ? As other sports have done when teams have usually fallen out with the main governing body
@futurebird That's vile. The transphobia has nothing to do with performance. Your gender presentation is unrelated to skill at frickin' chess. They're just pushing out trans players. Disgusting.
@futurebird "Trans men will be stripped of all chess titles won" IIUC only stripped of women's chess titles won, yes? They wouldn't be stripped of titles from open tournaments, right?
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