🤩 Aren't you just delighted by all those proprietary software apps for the #Fediverse?
😮 Don't be. Each time you choose proprietary you help turn the fedi slowly in the direction of the usual corporate hellscape that the rest of the Web already is.
😨 And then we end up in an online space where for years we can complain to each other how we squandered an opportunity and how #capitalism won once more.
🎯 Use #FOSS apps instead, created by the public for the public.
@pax yes, accessibility is often poor in FOSS projects as it isn't a subject that is given due attention to, right from the start of the development process, I agree. This is an area where significant improvements can be made starting with the raising of awareness to the offering of best-practices (on inclusive portals, such that anyone can contribute feedback).
@smallcircles this is one I don't really agree on. A proprietary, paid option does not take anything away from other offered apps. And there's nothing wrong with getting paid for your work. I personally don't use Ivory (just an example), but I am glad that it exists! More choice for everyone.
@smallcircles I skimmed over all of the replies. I am not convinced that more choice is worse in any way.
To put this into context: I am an supporter of open source all the way back to Freshmeat and Sourceforge. I put practically everything I do under AGPL or CC licenses (rarely MIT or other licenses). I know the distinction between free software and open source software. I know various models how F/LOSS can be financially viable.
And yet, I don't see how you come to that conclusion.
> And yet, I don't see how you come to that conclusion.
It is not a conclusion, more my opinion on a perceived weakness and threat for what I think to be precious aspects of the Fediverse, relating to culture and values.
As you say, and I agree, every dev should decide for themself how they offer their product. If they do that in a SMB and upholding similar values, fine.
Yet with every such entry the dynamics shift a bit from people-built to biz environment with market opportunity.
@smallcircles Are we talking about mobile apps? Browser plugins? A dedicated desktop application? Administrative tools? I am not that mobile savvy and am VERY picky about what apps land on my phone. My solution is Firefox on my desktop. I understand and agree with the sentiment overall, just not clear on the context.
@smallcircles which iOS clients are FOSS? I'd happily choose a FOSS option over proprietary if it had feature and design parity with the existing options (or near to it, and I could meaningfully contribute).
I wonder what stops app developers building open? It's such a cutthroat space, could code stealing (without attribution) be a concern leading them to take the easier option of closed code?
It's not wholly up-to-date, I have backlogs on the fedi lists to add.
Idk, how much code stealing and use against license terms is going on. It is hard to check, esp. when it is library code deep down the tech stack.
Transparency in the software supply chain is becoming more of a thing, and compliance to all kinds of aspects here. Which can be a risk to closed source software providers.
@smallcircles Oh! Ice cubes and Tooot are open source, I didn’t realise! My fave iOS apps are, in order, Mona, Tooot, Woolly and Ivory, so turns out an open source app is my second fav. Annoying, because I might’ve stayed with Tooot if I’d known it was open source, but I recently chose Mona and paid for it.
The fediverse started out as an online space built on personal projects that were all open source.
Now we see more and more proprietary (closed source) projects making their entry. And it has the risk of completely changing the dynamic and culture that currently exist.
My toot was a call for awareness and deliberation before choosing a particular federated app.
@smallcircles I think there is a space in the fediverse for commercial actors and I do not see why you are so negative. Can you elaborate on your points 2 and 3 to help me understand?
As long as there is an abundance of foss clients and, more importantly, foss instances, why would commercial clients be a threat?
And assuming one commercial client became dominant (which I find unlikely) how badly could it hurt it's users, or the rest of the network, before people start flocking away from it?
@muzzle on a fork of this thread I gave an example how proprietary Social Media have huge detrimental effect on society worldwide.
There can be beautiful companies with great values and proprietary services. But sadly in our hypercapitalist world these are the exceptions rather than the norm.
But I guess my biggest argument is that many folks don't realize how precious and still very fragile the Fediverse culture is, and that it probably cannot handle the onslaught of mass corporate entry rn.
@smallcircles It is really not helpful to blame those who merely use software for a de-facto non-existing effect of it. That's like blaming the audiences of movies for the “decline of literature”.
@pixelcode there's no blaming at all. There's a pointing out of something people may not be so aware of, so that they can take that into consideration when they make their choices.
It is advice in the same vein as telling people to beware for phishing mails, or how their personal information may be used by a party that asks for it on their website.
I am raising awareness, pointing out a danger, and recommend a path to follow.
Maybe author isn't fully aware how without evil proprietary apps (like gigantic walled garden #SocialMedia platforms) we most likely wouldn't see our fabric of society being torn down in the speed it currently goes.
Platforms that're in cutthroat competition for eyeballs and happily expose us to algorithms designed to sow division. As that works best for engagement and advertisement $$$.
Global search is a danger feature and yes, best developed in #FOSS apps.
@smallcircles@mativity@kontrollierterWahnwitz if small indy developers built nice proprietary apps that get users into the fediverse, i appreciate that. and I don’t think it’s fair to condem them as evil.
@smallcircles@mativity@kontrollierterWahnwitz this kind of purity thinking will get people away from the fediverse. most of us make compromises in this existing capitalist world. some buy food in a grocery store and vegetables from proprietary seeds, some grow their own from open source seeds. some use proprietary systems and software and some only foss. and often it’s something in between.
I don't condemn them as evil. I was responding to the mention of "evil proprietary apps" by @kontrollierterWahnwitz and in context of gigantic walled garden Social Media platforms.
> This kind of purity thinking [..] compromises
I am advising people to give conscious thought and make choices accordingly. That's all. We see where compromises lead us. We may do better some day. We may dream 😉
@smallcircles@mativity@kontrollierterWahnwitz I’m with you, that we have to make less compromises especially on bigger political level. Individualy everyone has to prioritize where to compromise.
Since a reaction on my post was quite rude, I get a little bit in more detail:
#FOSS is great. Way more people should use it as they currently do. People should also be aware of the difference between free and proprietary software.
Democracies should use #FOSS for their administrations for maximum transparency.
Opting for #Mastodon - after #Twitter became the right-wing shithole and Billionaire’s toy it currently is - was a great choice.
Developers should always have the choice to use the license model they want. In the end the developers have to pay their bills and feed their families. If they only see the opportunity to do that with closed source software, we have to live with it. If their business model is fair, transparent and easy to understand, there is nothing wrong about it. Some older of us can remember shareware. Shareware was (for the most parts) a fair proprietary business model.
I agree with what you say. I am not calling for developers to make particular choices, though I'd highly encourage them to take into consideration if and how they may earn a living with open source.
Other than the software itself, FOSS movement is sadly inherently unsustainable. Change is possible, but very difficult. There are existing revenue models and new ones to be discovered.
I do encourage people using software to choose open source above proprietary.
We both made our educated decision to join Mastodon at some point. I (and others) also made an educated decision to pay for a particular software. We don’t need to blame others for making different decisions. In my opinion, commercial and OpenSource software can coexist and interact positively.
@smallcircles@kontrollierterWahnwitz Fedilab charges a small fee on Google Play, but is free on F-droid. There's no problem charging people for using FOSS to cover expenses and try to make a living if you want/have to.
No problem at all. For some reason people transform my comparison of proprietary vs open source into commercial vs non-commercial. People should be able to earn a living from their open source work, and it should be much, much easier than it is now.
@apps is a fabulous example: "Wanna use proprietary appstore of an advertisement giant? Then pay some money. Do you choose open on @fdroidorg ? Thats great, and you can have our app without cost". Great projects!
@smallcircles@mativity Speaking about getting older in the computing business. Some of us may remember that some great #FOSS we use every day have their roots in failed proprietary software.
Netscape became Firefox and StarOffice transformed to LibreOffice. Also some great tools we use are sponsored by companies which basically sell it bundled with some proprietary assets and their support plan. I look at you, wine and <every payed Linux distribution ever>.
Speaking of memories - I suppose one thing that the original post wanted to address (correct me if I am wrong) was something that I am sure everybody is still remembering - the infamous "Optimised for Internet Explorer" statements on many websites on the (not that early) WWW. I would not go that far to completely deny the use of propriatary software in the fediverse, though. As long as they don't push "enhancements" as part of a business strategy
Proprietary server systems are inherently dangerous because of potential lock-in. #Twitter is the great example which was able to lock-in the client app. Whereas Mastodon and other ActivityPub servers cannot lock-in client apps. And if you use a proprietary client and it becomes evil - then swapping to a FOSS client is no great shakes. So much less to object to.
@smallcircles@mativity @smallcircles@mativity That's a really great suggestion. I didn't know what open source meant, or how significant it is, until I came here. So glad I did!
@smallcircles@mativity other than directly naming explaining to non-geeky people which iOS apps are proprietary and which are FOSS, what alternative communication strategy do you think might be helpful?
Sadly not. The #Mastodon site might add a filter that hides proprietary entries that are on that page, like Mammoth. It is listed as "Free" in the sense of no cost, but it is not "Open source".
@smallcircles@mativity
so are Tusky and Fedilab OSS?
I am not sure it makes much difference while Mastodon servers are open source. The apps can't change the nature of the fediverse or the servers? They are just an interface after all.
They can change the nature of the fediverse, as they are like portals.
What a fediverse client might do is give such a nice user interface that it becomes hugely popular. The client may develop to integrate other services than Mastodon and gain dominant market share. It may become an "everything app", which among others is the dream of Elon Musk. And such app being proprietary means it is much harder to break its now stranglehold position.
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